Bp. Magee of Cloyne writes to his priests on Summorum Pontificum

I received a very interesting scan (folks… if you want me to post on what you send, please send transcriptions if you send scans of documents).   

I received a letter to priests by the Bishop of Cloyne in Cork, Ireland, H.E. John Magree (whom some of you may know as a former Master of Pontifical Ceremonies).

The document I got, dated 16 November, called "Circular Letter from the Bishop to Priests engaged in Pastoral Work in the Diocese of Cloyne", and signed by the Bishop, quotes extensively from Summorum Pontificum.  That part isn’t worth reproducing.

Here is the interesting part towad the end (my emphases and comments):

It is clear [What follows is far from clear, actually.  The Holy See will be making clarifications.] from this Article 5 of the Motu Proprio, my dear follow Priest, that the request for the use of the extraordinary form of the Eucharist should come from a [BAD TRANSLATION ALERT] stable group of the faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition in a Parish to the Parish Priest[This leaves out other forms of communities, doesn't it?  What about a rector of a chapel? Etc.] The spirit of the Motu Proprio does not envisgage, [Is this like the "spirit of Vatican II"?  Does a spirit envisage?] therefore, any form of campaigning or of soliciting of faithful either from within the Parish or from without. [This is wayyyyy out of bounds.  Bishops have authority, but they cannot tell people what to desire, talk about, or promote, unless it is contrary to good Catholic faith and morals.   They can't tell priests what tooth paste to use, and they cannot stop them from favorably presenting or speaking about the Motu Proprio, the old Mass, or use of the Ritual.  There is precisely nothing wrong with Catholics of the Latin Church promoting the Roman Rite is as sacred now as it was in yesteryear.  ]  It envisages a genuine Pastoral need that must be responded to.

Dear Father, I wish to emphasise that I welcome the Motu Proprio of His Holiness, Pope Benedic XVI and I ask you to willingly see to its implementation in your Parish, if ever occasion arises. [! ... Now this last part is really interesting.] I shall see to it that a number of copies of the Roman Missal, promulgated in 1962 by Blessed Pope John XXIII, will be available at the Cloyne Diocesan Centre shuld any Parish Priest have need.  I enclose or you a copy of the Motu Proprio "Summorum Pontificum" for your own personal use. [But don't distribute it to the faithful?  Hmmm... ]

What mixed signals.  Don’t tell anyone about it, but implement it.

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63 Responses to Bp. Magee of Cloyne writes to his priests on Summorum Pontificum

  1. Marcos says:

    Hi Father,
    Salve Maria!

    What does “Say the black, do the red” mean?

    Marcos

  2. RichR says:

    Marcos, it is a reference to the rubrics in the missal which are red. They tell the priest what to do. The black type in the missal tells the priest what to say. Fr. Z. advocates a return to the basics. “Say the black, do the red…..and nothing else.” I think it’s simplicity is brililant.

    As an aside, I sometimes wonder if Fr. Z.’s slogan can be a tongue in cheek reference to his posts…….”[they] say the black, but would be wise to do the red [fr's comments].”

    Just an observation……LOL!

    God Bless, Fr. Z!

  3. Jeff Pinyan says:

    “Say the black” means “say what is written for you to say in the Missale Romanum” (which is in black in color). “Do the red” means “do what is proscribed to be done in the Missale Romanum” (which is red in color).

    In other words, say the right words and do the right things, don’t change things or make stuff up!

  4. I think this was the same Bishop who gave the commencement address in 2005 or 2006 at Franciscan University in Ohio.

  5. Boko Fittleworth says:

    Did Bp. Magee ever get his cathedral wreckovated?

  6. Ronan says:

    Hello Father Z!

    This is very sad news from Bishop Magee. Cloyne is one of only 4 dioceses in Ireland where no concessions have ever been made for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. I read his pastoral and saw that he forgot to mention to the faithful who wish to attend private masses in the old rite can do so. He also did not mention that anyone can ask for an occasional Mass. Has bishop Magee joined the ranks of the disobedient bishops who refuse to obey the Pope?

  7. Ronan says:

    No he did not succeed in wreckovating his cathedral – but he will not allow anyone to uise the high altar. Th old rite id definitely banned in Cobh Cathedral – no matter what the Pope says! Pray for him – he needs it.

  8. Maybe I should start adding my intertext comments in [green]. But this is off topic, isn’t it.

  9. Ronan: Cloyne is one of only 4 dioceses in Ireland where no concessions have ever been made for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal.

    Did I read you correctly?

    I read: Cloyne is one of only 4 dioceses in Ireland where no concessions have ever been made for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal.

  10. Ronan says:

    Yep, Fr. Z. you read that RIGHT. Cloyne is a 100% Traditional-Mass-Free-Zone and Bp. Magee is on record as saying that it will only happen there over his dead body. Requests have been made ofr the old Mass but these have all been refused -following the publication of the MP. So, pray for him and for his conversion.

  11. Habemus Papam says:

    Ronan, what are the names of the other 3 dioceses? Its important to get these facts out via the Internet.

  12. Ronan says:

    The others are: Cloyne, Kerry, Clonfert, Clogher

    Here is a diocese by diocese report:

    http://latinmassireland.org/newshappenings/nov_report.html

  13. Habemus Papam says:

    Thanks Ronan. Sad situation but this will help.

  14. TJM says:

    Bishop Magee sounds like a non-pastoral control freak. Tom

  15. Rumold says:

    This bishop has frustrated every effort to have the extraordinary form of Mass celebrated in his diocese.He has never given permission for it.In addition he attempted to wreckovate his cathedral recently. Cloyne cathedral is quite magnificent and .It is Pugin designed. So many wonderful cathedrals have been destroyed by bishops in Itreland that the civil authorities passed legislation requiring planning permission to be obtained before such works could be undertaken.Bishop Magee was refused permission by the Planning Board after an expensive 3 day oral hearing.What this cost the diocese must be enormous since he was represented by a Senior Counsel and solicitor and retained architects etc. Thank God for the civil authorities.

  16. Alex says:

    It cost Bp. Magee something in the region of €350,000 ($520,000) to pay the Barristers, Solicitors, Architects and Planning Consultants for the failed wreckovation of Cobh Cathedral.

    Fortunately this failure has left the Cathedral perfectly conformed for the resumption of the Old Rite, which he will have to concede eventually.

  17. WGS says:

    The following final sentence was missing:
    “And Dear Father, keep in mind that if you ask to use a copy of the Roman Missal of 1962 that we are pleased to make available, that request will be recorded in your personnel file.”

  18. Ronan says:

    That’s a shocking waste of money.

  19. Mary says:

    Reverend and Dear Fr.,

    I am very disappointed to read that Bishop John Magee, the secretary to three Popes, has joined the ranks of the dissidents and refuses to implement the wishes of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, in the diocese of Cloyne. Please protest this by sending an e-mail to Bp Magree at the following e-mail address:
    cloyne@indigo.ie

  20. Habemus Papam says:

    Mary, and the next step would be to write to:

    H.E. Dario Card. Castrillon Hoyos
    Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei
    Palazzo della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fida,
    00193 Roma,
    Piazza del S.Uffizo, 11

    Tel:06.69.88.52.13;06.69.88.84.94
    Fax:06.69.88.34.12

  21. Alex says:

    A good idea Mary, but the last time I tried that email address is was blocked or deleted. But it is still worth a try.

    When Bishop Magee first came to Cobh many people assumed that he was orthodox and faithful to the Holy Father, he mentioned him often enough in his sermons. One was never left forget that he was ‘secretary’ to three popes. In fact I think he was MC to Pope John Paul II, but I can be corrected on this. It was only when the whole ‘wreckovation’ project became known that he showed himself in his true colours. Many still believe that his problem is one of abject weakness in that he is easily influenced by the ‘raging’ modernists in the Diocese. Saying that, some of the recent appointments he has made defy belief. The new administrator in Cobh Parish refuses to genuflect at the Consecration or second elevation and the newly appointed Secretary to the Restoration Fund committee also seems to have a problem with his knees.
    We have a blight of ‘arthritic knees’ in our parish.
    Please pray for us, that we can hold out until sense and obedience to the Holy Father prevails.

  22. TonyM says:

    This bishop does not want to appear as an enemy of the Motu Proprio, so he
    asks that the Missal be available “if it’s needed.” But he simultaneously
    wishes that the Old Mass not be talked about, not be promoted, which means he
    effectively does not want to see more Catholics worshipping at the Old Mass.

  23. ThomasMore1535 says:

    It is so, so sad to see these bishops being disloyal to the Vicar of Christ, particularly this one, who was indeed Marini I’s predecessor as papal MC. In fact, it was under his tenure as papal MC that John Paul II wore the Papal Fanon. Check out this link to the photo of him wearing it. Bishop Magee is the one looking into the camera.

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6322/78/1600/JPIIFanon2.jpg

  24. Alex says:

    Given the state of liturgy in Cobh Cathedral and Cloyne Diocese it could be that the wearing of the fanon was Pope John Paul’s idea rather than John Magee’s.

  25. WGS: You wrote: The following final sentence was missing:

    That is entirely FALSE. I consider that slander. There was nothing of the kind in the kind in the document I received, a copy of which you can read on the images I linked.

    What you wrote is false and cannot go without protest.

    On this blog we do not publish slander.

  26. ALL: Stick to what the Bishop WROTE.

    Don’t be unjust or, worse, daft.

    Stick to what he WROTE.

  27. ALL: Here is a fuller story you will find only here. I lived for months with the rector of the Basilica of S. Cecilia, where JPII wore the fanon in the photos. I know the story behind this. The rector, who was one of the papal MC’s, put the vestments out when the Holy Father came to the basilica. The Holy Father wore them. People higher up were pissed off. But… this man was both rector of that basilica and one of the MC’s. The rector was traditionally minded. In his basilica, and because of his influence, he had his way, in his basilica.

    This shows the importance of some one person to take a hit for the sake of precedent.

    The Pope went with it.

    On an aside, I have worn those same vestments (without the fanon).

    Please pray for the late Msgr. Antonio Massone who created that photo by his heel digging.

  28. Deborah says:

    The canon law of the Catholic Church disagrees with Bishop Magree:

    “Can. 212 ß2 Christ’s faithful are at liberty to make known their needs, especially their spiritual needs, and their wishes to the Pastors of the Church.

    ß3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

    Can. 213 Christ’s faithful have the right to be assisted by their Pastors from the spiritual riches of the Church, especially by the word of God and the sacraments.

    Can. 214 Christ’s faithful have the right to worship God according to the provisions of their own rite approved by the lawful Pastors of the Church; they also have the right to follow their own form of spiritual life, provided it is in accord with Church teaching.

    A reading of Catholic canon law quickly dismisses Bishop Magree’s ridiculous statements. My advice to the faithful in this diocese is to go ahead and form your own TLM communities since the bishop’s permission is no longer required. His letter is insulting and perhaps only deserves a copy of canon law on the rights of the faithful highlighted.

  29. Syriacus says:

    «La televisione trasmette sempre più frequentemente le celebrazioni papali. Certi usi medievali, portati fuori dall’ambiente romano a gente di altre religioni o non credente, danno luogo a interpretazioni diverse e non sempre positive. Il Papa deve apparire a tutti come successore di Pietro, servo dei servi di Dio e non come un principe del Medioevo. La televisione esige un comportamento esemplare da quanti partecipano alla liturgia papale […]; i primi piani rivelano spietatamente ogni gesto che si compie» (+Annibale Bugnini)

    ” «Nella vecchia liturgia il ruolo del cerimoniere consisteva nell’applicare una serie di norme rigide, che non potevano essere cambiate. Oggi non si può organizzare una celebrazione senza prima aver pensato: chi celebra, che cosa celebra, dove si celebra… La celebrazione è il punto verso il quale convergono elementi diversi reciprocamente coordinati sotto la guida di quello spirito di adattamento che è l’anima della riforma conciliare»” (+Piero Marini)

  30. Louis E. says:

    Isn’t Magee best known for his being one of the first on the scene at the death of John Paul I?
    A book about the time tried to play him up as the potential first Irish Pope but that has certainly not happened.

  31. Arnie says:

    Things in Ireland are far from friendly towards the 1962 Missal in my opinion and experience. Ossory (my home Diocese) is a similar story, but we shall see with a new Bishop ‘installed’ yesterday (I know off topic but why is the Bishop now always installed and not consecrated?). The previous incumbent, Forristal, was far from making allowances!

  32. Irulats says:

    Yes, Ireland needs a lot of praying for, but we Irish are a hopeful lot. My own diocese allowed one Mass under the old indult and then refused all other requests. When Summorum Pontificum came into effect, our parish priest was asked about allowing an extraordinary form Mass in our beautiful old church. He immediately volunteered to say it himself and many were overjoyed. However a few days later he privately revealed that he had had second thoughts. He said that he had developed a very negative gut-feeling to the older form of the Mass which would prevent him from ever saying it again. If everyone reading this asked Our Lord to intercede for this good priest, I’m certain this stumbling block would be removed.

  33. Finola says:

    Point of clarification. Bishop Magee was private secretary to Paul VI, John Paul I and, for a time, John Paul II. He has not been, as far as I know a papal master of ceremonies.

  34. Dob says:

    There are many loyal devout old priests who have stood by and watched the decimation over the years. They have had enough. Bishop or no Bishop they will forge ahead. It would be so much better if the Bishops supported the Pope. Their disobedience is a scandal to themselves and damages the Church’s mission. So be patient for a little longer. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed in the diocese of Ossory from what I hear.
    Irulats, Your priest is not the first and won’t be the last to face this predicament. God willing, Our Lord will lead him through this period. Our family will join our prayers to yours in this matter. God bless.

  35. Mary says:

    If Bp. Magee thinks that he can disobey the Pope and get away with it what right has he to expect obedience from his own priests? Is not obedience to the Pope and to the bishop from the same authority?

  36. Rumold says:

    The Archdiocese of Dublin is putting Bishop Magee and other Irish bishops of similar ilk to shame.On the day fioollowing the motu propio coming into force the Archbishop of Dublin established a “Latin Mass chaplaincy”. It is served by three priests. It has been given a beautiful centre city church which was designed by Pugin.There daily Mass in the extraordinay rite is celebrated. Solemn Mass is offered each Sunday.All the sacraments are available in the old rite. Christmas Masses and the Easter triduum will be in old rite (including Tenebrae).This is the generous obedience that the Pope is entitled to expect. What a pity that Bishop Magee is so deficient in that quality.

  37. M.Z. Forrest says:

    There is no clear act of disobedience in my opinion. What needs to be kept in mind is that there are 3 ways to have a TLM.
    1) A private mass. This is at the perogative of the priest.
    2) A parish mass. This is at the perogative of the pastor.
    3) A mass offered by a religious order. This is at the perogative of the Order.

    As far as not soliciting a people to whom a pastor is not entrusted, I think Rome will say that is the definition of a pastor. Apologizes for being flippant on the point. As to the larger issue at hand, I think it would be helpful for people to appreciate that a reasonable case could be made for (1) being a prerequisite for (2). Certainly there is room for exceptions, but not every exception is valued the same. One would be in a much stronger position running to the bishop, let alone Ecclesia Dei, having a stable group attending a private mass than having just a petition.

  38. J.J. Spillane says:

    I have been blessed to be in a position to enjoy the liturgical excellence of the Oratorians in Oxford for some time. On a trip home to my native diocese (and parish) in Ireland recently, I won’t say which one, I’ve realised how much work there is to do. Good, good priests working away but ensnared by the “Fr. Trendy” mentality that sees Holy Mass reduced to a 30 minute get-together with as little solemnity as possibly. I feel bad criticizing but it really does drain the reserves of patience. We (the Irish laity) are partly to blame of course. We convinced ourselves that that is what we really wanted and let the Bishops have their way.

    Fr. Z mentioned “precedent” above. I think that’s the key. The Archbishop of Dublin has been very generous in his facilitation of the E.F. of the Holy Mass (and Abp. Diarmuid Martin has done his chances of being recalled to Rome a lot of good if that is what the Good Lord calls him to) so hopefully that will be a start.

  39. dcs says:

    M.Z. Forrest opines:
    As far as not soliciting a people to whom a pastor is not entrusted, I think Rome will say that is the definition of a pastor.

    Ah, but the guidelines prohibit the solicitation of those both outside and inside the parish. I would agree that His Excellency’s restrictions are not a “clear act of disobedience” but they are certainly contrary to both the letter and the spirit of Summorum Pontificum. If a public Mass is to be at the prerogative of the pastor then it is up to the pastor to determine what constitutes a “stable group” or whether a request from such a group is necessary at all.

  40. ALL: I posted this before, but it seems some people read what I wrote with as little attention as they gave to Bp. Magee’s letter:

    Stick to what the Bishop WROTE.

    Don’t be unjust or, worse, daft.

    Stick to what he WROTE.

     

  41. Ronan says:

    But Bp Magee simply just doesn’t want the Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Missal. He did not advertise that people can attend private Masses, he did not advertise Masses for specific occasions. He certainly has no intention of permitting a Mass for any group in Cloyne no matter how big the group.

  42. Dob says:

    I think there is an issue with too much information regarding the old mass versus the new mass. I would not fault a Bishop for restraining the active promotion of the TLM because to do so might be distressing to the faithful. A sensible approach would be just to allow it to emerge gently, quietly and naturally. If this explains the mixed messages here in his document then I would not fault him. Speaking personally, I have found the degree to which my generation have been deprived of our catholic culture very shocking and distressing. A quiet gentle realignment is pastorally very important. His last paragraph states that he welcomes the MP. That he will make available books for the priest, that the priest must seek to fulfill requests should they ever arise. These are very strong pointers in my book. I know you point out interpretation errors Fr Z, but I think you’ve put your finger on it yourself. He points out what the “spirit” of the motu proprio says, he does not, unlike other Bishops say it IS the Motu Proprio. Those who understand the “spirit” of vatican II will also understand the “spirit” of the motu proprio. He must know well the significance of using this term. In effect, I think he gives a blessing to the traditional priest to implement and a get-out clause for the “spirit” of VII priests. Maybe this interpretation is too charitable. I suppose time will tell.

  43. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    Firstly, in relation to Bishop Magee’s letter – it does indicate that the Bishop is willing to allow provision for the extraordinary form. There are a few local issues referred to obliquely in the letter, but it does provide a mechanism for traditionalists to act upon.

    For the record, Bishop Magee was English-language secretary to Popes Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II, before serving as Papal MC briefly. He was made Bishop of Cloyne on Bishop Aherne’s retirement. Rumour suggested he would succeed Tomás Ó Fiaich in Armagh and get the red hat, but Cardinal Ó Fiaich died too early and when Cardinal Daly retired, there was something of an episcopal standoff against this in the Armagh Province.

    It is correct to say that Cloyne is one of the four Irish dioceses in which there has never been an extraordinary form Mass under any of the provisions since 1984. The others are Kerry, Clonfert and Ossory. Contrary to Ronan’s post above, there has been sporadic provision of the Mass in the Clogher diocese in St Patrick’s Purgatory, Lough Derg (but not since 2001 though).

    No Irish bishop can be proud of his provision of the extraordinary form. I will single Bishop Brennan of Ferns out for special mention as there is a retired missionary in his diocese who desperately wants to be reconciled to the church in his advanced years, but Ferns is cold to approaches on his behalf.

    Of course the Mass is allowed every day in Tuam (Archbishop Neary) and in Dublin (Archbishop Martin), but the former is located in a rather remote private chapel; the latter at least on weekdays is in a church outside the city centre at 8 am which is difficult both for workers and retired people other than those in the immediate vicinity. Anyway, it is so obvious that Mgr Martin’s motivation is for his own career.

  44. Dob says:

    Alaisdir, that old priest in Ferns is a grace filled man. I popped in to a Mass while on holidays and I have to say the experience has been with me since. You are privileged to have such a gem of a priest in your midst. Take good care of him.

  45. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    that old priest in Ferns is a grace filled man

    I concur absolutely. Let Mgr Brennan and his adminstration ponder on their acts.

    A ua S

  46. Tom says:

    Bishop Magee does nothing to restrict others promoting their private versions of Catholicism. Here in Cobh he actively promotes the so called Taize Mass in one of the churches and horrible abuses go on with the celebrant sitting squat on the floor at a coffee table. Then we had the spectacle of amateur dramatics in the Cathedral last Sunday week with a candidate for the RCIA being received at one of the parish masses. The entire first past of the Mass up to the Gospel was omitted. A lady stood in the sanctuary with the candidate tracing crosses on her. They then all just marched out of the cathedral like the pied-piper. Gereral absolution is rampant and rite two-and-a-half is actively encouraged. Why are these activities not corrected? No effort is made to celebrate the new rite correctly -the liturgy is in free fall. Despite protestations of accepting the motu proprio he has no intention of allowing the old rite. Just look at his record since 1987.

  47. Maire Ferns says:

    I go to that wonderful priest in Ferns.
    What strikes me is his orthodoxy.
    I go reeling from one local church to another but I
    find sustenence and rest at his TLM mass.

    As regards promoting the TLM, the mere mention of it
    was enough to initiate a response ‘It is not for you
    to demontsrate/promote it’. This came from a very high
    level.Yet coffee mornings and bricka brack stalls are
    announced from the pulpit at every opportunity.
    The people are STARVING for TLM and they dont know it.
    I was one of them.

  48. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    The wonderful priest in Ferns is 89 years of age.

    Those who attend his congregation and those who, as Maire Ferns once was, don’t but should, deserve provision the diocese are not giving them. This is certainly a case for recourse to Summorum Pontificum.

  49. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    Rumold writes:

    The Archdiocese of Dublin is putting Bishop Magee and other Irish bishops of similar ilk to shame.On the day fioollowing the motu propio coming into force the Archbishop of Dublin established a “Latin Mass chaplaincy”. It is served by three priests. It has been given a beautiful centre city church which was designed by Pugin.There daily Mass in the extraordinay rite is celebrated. Solemn Mass is offered each Sunday.All the sacraments are available in the old rite. Christmas Masses and the Easter triduum will be in old rite (including Tenebrae).This is the generous obedience that the Pope is entitled to expect. What a pity that Bishop Magee is so deficient in that quality.

  50. Rumold says:

    The liturgical horrors described by Tom are a disgrace to Bishop Magee. The longer that they are allowed to continue the worse will they become.There is no point in trying to get any action from the bishop. Why not write a polite but well constructed and documented letter of complaint to the Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, Archbishop Ranjith.It might produce results very quickly.

  51. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    Rumold writes:

    The Archdiocese of Dublin is putting Bishop Magee and other Irish bishops of similar ilk to shame.
    On the day following the motu propio coming into force the Archbishop of Dublin established a “Latin Mass chaplaincy”. It is served by three priests. It has been given a beautiful centre city church which was designed by Pugin.There daily Mass in the extraordinay rite is celebrated. Solemn Mass is offered each Sunday.All the sacraments are available in the old rite. Christmas Masses and the Easter triduum will be in old rite (including Tenebrae).This is the generous obedience that the Pope is entitled to expect. What a pity that Bishop Magee is so deficient in that quality.

    I am not sure we can exalt Archbishop Martin.

    It’s important to note all of the three priests involved in the chaplaincy have full time occupation elsewhere – the chaplaincy is part-time.

    Of course, Holy Orders is ommitted from the statement ‘all the sacraments’. Confirmation has not been mentioned: it is subject to fresh negotiation.

    Dublin is also by far the largest of Ireland’s 26 dioceses – one would expect more than just the one location there (sorry, I forgot about the first Saturday Mass in the side chapel of University Church – like, wow, man: if you pardon my American).

    To paraphrase an English proverb, all that glitters is not a traditional chaplaincy.

  52. Tom says:

    Even if you have doubts about Archbishop Martin at least he has no problem about the MP. Bishop Magee does and is trying his best to hide that fact. If Archbishop Martin has fulfilled the letter rather than the spirit of the law, Bishop Magee has fulfilled neither the letter nor the spirit of the MP. He is in the camp of Bugnini, Noe and Marini 1.

  53. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    Magee is in the camp of Paul VI – what more do you need to know about him?

    Martin is in the camp of Diarmuid Martin – enough said. On the feast of St Lorcan O’Toole, patron of the Dublin Archdiocese, I pondered that none of St Lorcan’s successors were named for the saint, but that two recent archbishops of Dublin (archwreckovator, Dermot Ryan and now Diarmuid Martin are named for St Lorcan’s nemesis, Diarmuid Mc Murrough.

    I have little to say about the remaining bishops. Seamus Hegarty of Derry likes the extraordinary Mass, but has done little about establishing anything in Derry. His neighbour Philip Boyce of Raphoe seems more favourable to allowing it, but does not say it himself. Murphy of Kerry and Kirby of Clonfert are actively hostile – there is a chance something in Cloyne at least.

    And personally, I am not inclined to engage the Roman Curia’s support. It really depends a lot on who is entrusted with dealing with any correspondence that determines either what happens or what doesn’t happen. I suspect more of the latter than the former.

  54. Tom says:

    Bishop Magee does himself no favours in persecuting the Old Rite Mass or in trying all sorts of tricks to prevent people attending it. People from his diocese have to travel to Cork, Limerick or Dublin to attend the Old Rite. Meanwhile, at home, every imagineable abuse goes on and he does nothing to stop it: dancing and frolicks at Christmas and Easter; donkeys [four legged ones] paraded up the aisles of many churches on Christmas morning; gross missuse of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion -here in Cobh we have a small army or “extraordinaries” as they are called; abusing people who want to receive kneeling or on the tongue; the list is endless.

  55. Alaisdir Ua Seaghdha says:

    Welcome to Ireland, Tom.

    In the case of the Cloyne diocese, there is a least Mass in Cork and Limerick (albeit on a monthly basis only – well, not quite only ‘once a month’ in Limerick – check the schedule on the http://www.latinmassireland.org homepage for the December/January schedule).

    Just remember, there is virtually nothing in the midlands. In a way, diocesan borders are deceptive. Because the dioceses were constructed in the 12th century and for communication purposes had to have access to the sea (not to have this would be like trying to start business without internet access these days). As a result, Ireland’s inland counties are neglected. Go round Ireland’s coast and you’ll find every Irish county except Kerry has had the extraorinary form Mass publicly with ecclesiastical permission to some degree in recent years.

    Go to the inland counties – Tyrone (a couple of times, privately); Fermanagh (never – in spite of an SSPX presence in Kesh); Armagh (again, a couple of times, privately); Cavan (one nuptial Mass and that in 1995); Monaghan (never); Longford (once – a few months ago for the Edgeworth bicentenary); Roscommon (once a year in Ballaghadereen Cathedral since 2005); Westmeath (never – and the SSPX have a chapel in Athlone spanning both Westmeath and Roscommon); Offaly (never – and there are sedes in Birr); Laois (never); Kildare (once a year in Kildare Town since 2001 – subject to correction); Carlow (never, in spite of many petitions); Kilkenny (never); and Tipperary (once a year in Holycross Abbey since 1992; the SSPX are in Thurles). The liturgical abuses you mention are found in all these areas too – Magee is not a particular offender.

    I presume you are a resident in Cloyne. In that case, you could do worse than talk to Father Burke in Macroom. You might find it worth your while.

  56. Tom says:

    Fine, but why should I have to travel out Cobh to hear Mass on Sunday morning? I pay dues to the clergy here and it looks as though they are no longer able to say Mass properly even according to the new rite. And all of this is presided over by bishop Magee who has not the slightest interest anything remotly liturgical. In the last ten years Cobh parish has liturgically fallen to bits.

  57. Tom says:

    Just for the record: even if Bishop Magee is not the only offender, he is a gross offender by doing nothing to maintain liturgical propriety in Cobh and Cloyne.

  58. Matt Q says:

    Ronan wrote:

    “Yep, Fr. Z. you read that RIGHT. Cloyne is a 100% Traditional-Mass-Free-Zone and Bp. Magee is on record as saying that it will only happen there over his dead body. Requests have been made ofr the old Mass but these have all been refused following the publication of the MP. So, pray for him and for his conversion.”

    Isn’t this Magee character the same MC who served John Paul II early in his reign?

    What is it with these MCs?

    In any event, according to the Motu Proprio, refusals have to be justified to Rome, so we anticipate Rome will be contacting him shortly. Yeah, right…!

  59. Matt Q: Bp. Magee is on record as saying that it will only happen there over his dead body.

    If he is “on record”, perhaps you can dig up that record and provide us with it. That would be very helpful and interesting. If he actually stated this in public and it was recorded on audio or in print, well… that is concrete.

  60. ADV says:

    I invite everyone to look at some of the pictures (http://www.ossory.ie/, and follow the links)of the recent ordination of Mgr Freeman as Archbishop of Ossosry with Diarmuid Martin as the Principal Consecrator, Archbishop of Dublin, and with the co-consecrators,Giuseppe Lazzarotto, Apostolic Nuncio, and Laurence Forristal, former Bishop of Ossory. The liturgy was awful. A mess. Do note the rather odd ‘ceremony’ of incensing that took place. Who ever is responsible for these ‘liturgical’ acts needs some education rather badly. As it is said… ‘a picture speaks a thousand words.’ One wonders what will change in our Cathedral.

  61. Pat says:

    ADV – if the last picture is indeed “Concelebrating Bishops during the Eucharistic Prayer”, why on earth are they wearing their zuchettos?

    The Church in Ireland, like its island neigbour to the east, is very much in need of prayers.

  62. Mary says:

    Dear Fr. Z,

    Things seem to get worse in Cobh Cathedral. It is very stressful for us ordinary Catholics in the pews. Now we have three priests in the parish who refuse to genuflect (even at the consecration). The Administrator, poor man, believes that genuflecting is OPTIONAL and never does it. Now the others follow his misguided example. Please pray for Bishop Magee that he will see the light and turn to God once again.

    A number of people have asked for the Latin Mass here but Bishop Magee has given an outright refusal. Pray for his conversion.

    Thank you.

  63. Matt Q says:

    Dear Father Z:

    This is the only the only link I’ve been able to find regarding Magee’s obstinate thinking. It’s only a little ditty from Ireland but still making it quite clear what this person’s position is. It’s about half way down the article.

    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/09/16/story26659.asp

    Will keep trying.