AUDIO: Bp. Robert Lynch gives his views of the older form of Mass

His Excellency is right about "instant communication" today.  Let’s have as many people as possible hear this.

I applaud the initiative of the Diocese of St. Petersburg, His Excellency Most Reverend Robert Lynch, to use video and audio on the internet to help people reflect on the Eucharist.

However, this bishop’s true view of the older form of Mass is veiled with what I can only think is carefully polite language.

Here is a clip from the livingeucharist.org.

Listen especially to the way Bp. Robert Lynch speaks of the "clerical" style of Mass in the older form.  People couldn’t see or hear "unless Father wanted you too" etc. 

[mp3]08_01_24_BpLynch[\]

I find the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated in most places to be far more "clerical" than ever the older form could be!

While I think the intiative is very good in itself, I think the older form of Mass deserves far better treatment.

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52 Responses to AUDIO: Bp. Robert Lynch gives his views of the older form of Mass

  1. I watched it! More of the same contemporary pablum.

  2. TNCath says:

    I watched the entire series on the diocesan website. Res ipsa loquitur. While not of the 1960′s-1980′s vintage, this is one of those slick post-modern styles that have been heavily influenced by things that have come of out of the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions and the National Association of Pastoral Musicians. I’ve seen the same thing on a smaller scale in our diocese. The liturgies they depict on the videos are so far removed from what we have been seen watching our Holy Father’s liturgies. Isn’t this the same Bishop Lynch that, a few years back, limited Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament to parishes in his diocese to once a year? Enough said.

  3. Andrew says:

    If my ears don’t deceive me, Bishop Lynch is saying:

    “Good Eucharist, and good celebration of Mass is far more than a beautiful worship space, great music, good preaching … etc.”

    Good Eucharist?! (???????????)

  4. Madkins says:

    On section 5 “Liturgy of the Eucharist” at 10:38, notice the lovely blue vestments worn by the priest… always great to see liturgical abuse on a video about the liturgy (and officially sponsored by the diocese to top it off)!

  5. Jon Roberts says:

    I think Fr. Z intended to link to this: http://www.olfatima.com/lynch.wma

  6. TNCath says:

    So, I’ve listened to the audio link. Please tell me this is a Saturday Night Live parody.

    The worst lines of all:

    1. The Mass was “in a foreign language that had ceased to exist centuries ago.” What???

    2. At the altar “we couldn’t see what was going on because the priest blocked those actions.”

    3. “We’ve had the ability to have the Mass in Latin for some time now, but very few go. Very, very few go.”

    4. “In the old days, it (the Mass) was in a pure monotone.”

    Where in the world did he get this?

    Truly, this is the strangest thing I’ve heard from a bishop since Bishop Carroll T. Dozier issued general absolution to 11,000 people in Memphis back in 1976, appeared on the Today Show and said laughingly, “Well, the Vatican didn’t care for what I did, but there’s nothing they can do about it.”

  7. TR says:

    And here is a video of His Excellency commenting on the very Ordinary.

    http://www.dioceseofstpete.org/

    Man, was that tedious

  8. Patrick says:

    Sooo. The elements are transformed by the prayer of the Priest and the people. Interesting. And I’ve only heard the first clip!

  9. Kevin says:

    Yes, this bishop who restricted Eucharistic Adoration in his diocese back in 1999.

    Yes, he is the bishop who basically said/did next to nothing for Terri Schiavo or her family.

    Yes, he is the bishop who paid a $100,000 dollar sexual harassment settlement to a former diocesan spokesman.

    And, yes, this is the bishop who bemoaned the new translations for the Mass as “slavishly accurate” to the Latin original.

  10. Brian says:

    I went to the TLM in St. Pete on the Sunday after Thanksgiving–Last Sunday after Pentecost in the TLM Missal; Feast of Christ the King in the Novus Ordo Missal.

    Place was packed. Of course, it was full of Catholics, so everyone fled out the door as soon as the last syllable of the last Gospel pealed, so perhaps his Eminence walks in after Mass and thinks, “There was nobody here.” Hard to see how he missed all the people in the lobby though.

  11. Jon Roberts says:

    “I went to the TLM in St. Pete on the Sunday after Thanksgiving—Last Sunday after Pentecost in the TLM Missal; Feast of Christ the King in the Novus Ordo Missal.”

    That was the day he introduced the new “pastoral letter” for the diocese in the cathedral next door – everybody flew out of there to hear the bishop speak about the New Mass, surely ?

  12. TR,

    I was thinking the exact same thing about Terri’s case…his behavior was a travesty of justice. And the CDF HAS been informed on various levels.

    Regarding the audio you posted, this is one of the reasons I would advocate celebrating the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. All those who oppose the TM generally do so on the grounds that people do not understand the Latin. I think that it is a shame to reduce the TM to an issue of Latin. It is far MORE than that! When done well and in its highest form, it reflects a fuller modality of worship than is currently experienced even in places where the NO is done well…it is truly “heaven on earth”…a foretaste of glory….the experience of the celestial worship of the Holy Trinity!

    IMHO, the Latin Church should take the “wedge issue” of language off of the table and out of the “talking points” of weak hierarchs like Bishop Robert Lynch. Restore Gregorian Chant (even mix in some Latin and Greek – Kyrie), but have the majority of the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular.

    By staying fixated on language (“It must ONLY be in Latin!” or “The OLD MASS was in Latin and I did not understand it!”) it detracts from the larger more critical pastoral issues in liturgical worship, which is that Latin Catholics in the USA by and large have no clue what it means to worship the Holy Trinity as a Catholic. Their banal, suburban, stereotypically boomer-esque, semi-Arian experience Holy Mass is starving them spiritually. We are reaping the tragic fruits of that as a communion of Churches. (Not to mention the fact that the “pews” (not all have them, of course!) are Orthodox CHristian congregations are filling up with ex-Catholics.)

    I want to see Tridentine Catholicism mainstreamed properly through the lens of Vatican II as quickly as possible, and believe that celebrating the Tridentine Mass with the majority of it in the vernacular is the best way to move in that direction…and render mute critics like Bishop Robert Lynch.

    In ICXC,

    Gordo

  13. A great review on the “ministry” of Bishop Robert Lynch:

    http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/070330

    Let us pray for his conversion.

    Gordo

  14. TNCath says:

    I am always amazed at those bishops and priests that contend that hardly anyone is interested in a Latin Mass (Novus Ordo or Extraordinary Form). I would be willing to bet that most of them haven’t attended one since Vatican II. Bishop Lynch is 66 years old. He is one of a number of bishops who have 10 years or less to go until retirement. In the long history of the Church, this is considered a short time. To the people of St. Petersburg and elsewhere, this is considered a lifetime. One cannot help but wonder what will be left by the time these bishops’ retirements are finally accepted.

  15. danphunter1 says:

    Has anyone else noted that whenever we see that telltale abstract “art”, stained glass window in any presentation by a priest or religious, that the warning alarm bells immediately go off?
    This presentation was rife with limp wristed post vatican II garbage.
    Protestants and others outside the Church will see this and immediately be turned off to the Catholic Church.
    Lets get an Archbishop Sheen speaking about the absolute need for the Sacrament of Penance before recieving our most Precious Lord in the Holy Sacrament, while the good Bishop stands in front of a magnificent 18th century Pugin stainglass window of the Crucifixion.
    That would bring heretics in and lapsed Catholics back!
    Deo Gratias.

  16. RBrown says:

    Truly, this is the strangest thing I’ve heard from a bishop since Bishop Carroll T. Dozier issued general absolution to 11,000 people in Memphis back in 1976, appeared on the Today Show and said laughingly, “Well, the Vatican didn’t care for what I did, but there’s nothing they can do about it.”
    Comment by TNCath

    He resigned 4 years before his retirement. Maybe he was healthy, and the Vatican did do something about.

    Or maybe he was sick–in which case God did something about it.

  17. RBrown says:

    I am always amazed at those bishops and priests that contend that hardly anyone is interested in a Latin Mass (Novus Ordo or Extraordinary Form).
    Comment by TNCath

    You shouldn’t be amazed because it has been the Company Line since at least 1970.

  18. RBrown says:

    Lets get an Archbishop Sheen speaking about the absolute need for the Sacrament of Penance before recieving our most Precious Lord in the Holy Sacrament, while the good Bishop stands in front of a magnificent 18th century Pugin stainglass window of the Crucifixion.
    That would bring heretics in and lapsed Catholics back!
    Deo Gratias.
    Comment by danphunter1

    That same good bishop was in favor of getting rid of Latin liturgy.

  19. TNCath says:

    Bishop Dozier retired in 1982 at the age of 71. The reason given to the faithful was for health reasons, which was valid because he suffered from rheumatoid arthritis. However, L’Observatore Romano published the resignation as in conformity with one of the provisions in the 1917 Code of Canon law that provided for resignation for reasons other than illness.

  20. danphunter1 says:

    RBrown,
    I did not know that.
    That truly amazes me. Just goes to show that even good men can be sold a bill of goods if it is drummed into their heads enough.
    Thank you for setting me straight and God bless you.

  21. Andrew says:

    RBrown: That same good bishop was in favor of getting rid of Latin liturgy.

    I didn’t know that either. I assume that you are speaking of Archbishop Sheen, and when you say “in favor of” you mean he preferred the Novus Ordo over the TLM and supported the liturgical reforms. Can you give me your sources for this? I would like to research that a bit further.

    Thanks,

  22. magdalen says:

    I did not watch the video clip as I just ate breakfast…I did look at the
    articles. I guess I have known of this bishop since he restricted the
    adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament in his diocese. I guess
    Christ is not King there.

    I am sorry, but this is one of the ‘shepherds’ that is just not
    getting old enough fast enough.

  23. RBrown says:

    RBrown: That same good bishop was in favor of getting rid of Latin liturgy.

    I didn’t know that either. I assume that you are speaking of Archbishop Sheen, and when you say “in favor of” you mean he preferred the Novus Ordo over the TLM and supported the liturgical reforms. Can you give me your sources for this? I would like to research that a bit further.

    Thanks,
    Comment by Andrew

    I saw him say it in an interview on TV sometime in the early 70′s. If I remember correctly, he said, “Liturgically, we’re better off.”

  24. Victor,Victoris (m) says:

    Look a the bright side, he’s not Matt Clark. He is a liberal no doubt. I stopped going to the cathedral for major feasts beacuse of the
    parade of pagan incense bowls being held alot by the vestal virgins
    and eunuches making clear the way for him. As he gets closer to
    retirement the dancing girls can not be far behind. What is less
    widely known about the Terri Schiavo scandal is that he allowed
    Terri’s former husband to be married in the Catholic Church,
    Espiritu Santo to be exact. A man who publicly executed his wife
    then publicly presents himself for marriage to his mistress with
    the Bishop’s blessing. Who does he think he is, Cardinal Woolsey?

  25. RBrown says:

    BTW, a new bishop has been named for Springfield, Mo.

    Father Vann Johnston is a Knoxville native. He attended UT and earned a degree in electrical engineering in 1982. He worked as an engineer in Houston, TX until1985. He then attended St. Meinard where he received a Master of Divinity Degree. He was ordained in1990. From 1994 to 1996, he attended the Catholic University of America and earned a Licentiate in Canon Law. Father Vann has been an associate pastor at St. Mary’s in Oak Ridge and at St Jude in Chattanooga. While in Chattanooga he also taught at Notre Dame High School. Father Vann was then moved to Knoxville, where he became the associate pastor at Holy Ghost. He now has multiple responsibilities as Chancellor and Moderator of the Curia at Sacred Heart and Pastor at OLOF. We feel very blessed to have such a gracious and articulate priest to lead our parish.

  26. danphunter1 says:

    RBrown,
    “Liturgically we are better off”
    I wonder how the Archbishop could ever justify this?
    As far as anyone knows, did he give a reason why “liturgically we are better of”, because I experience it and see it as quite the opposite.
    God bless you.

  27. TNCath says:

    Although I’m not in the Knoxville diocese, I have heard many good things about Bishop-designate Vann. The Diocese of Knoxville is still open as is the Diocese of Little Rock. We in the South have been waiting a long time for these vacancies to be filled. After that, barring anything unforeseen, it will be at least another 8-10 years before the South undergoes any major changes in ordinaries.

  28. Madkins says:

    Carefull how you speak for Arch. Sheen. We cannot simply write-off such an amazing witness as being liturgically illiterate; he may (but we don’t know) have meant that the Novus Ordo- done well as at St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN- is better than the TLM; and in the sense that he might believe that the TLM may have not been as loved as it should have been due to the monotonous way in which some priests may have been sacrificing it almost 500 years after it ‘inception’.

    Who knows. I think it best to not assume the worst about Sheen.

    God bless.

  29. RBrown says:

    “Liturgically we are better off”
    I wonder how the Archbishop could ever justify this?
    As far as anyone knows, did he give a reason why “liturgically we are better of”, because I experience it and see it as quite the opposite.
    God bless you.
    Comment by danphunter1

    My impression was that he was referring to Latin vs the vernacular.

  30. danphunter1 says:

    RBrown,
    Again, I wonder how could Bishop Sheen have possibly thought that a language which locked into its unchanging language, Divine revelation and the unchanging truths of the faith, namely Latin, could possibly be inferior to a changing language full of colloquialisms, such as English.
    “Et cum Spiritu Tuo” as opposed to ” and also with you”.
    Disadvantage Advantage
    I do not think so.
    God bless you.

  31. Someone in St Pete says:

    Being at ground zero, I thought I’d add my two cents worth regarding the ligurgical mindset in the Diocese of St. Petersburg. As if you didn’t already know, the chancery is in the Bishop Trautmann camp. Here’s some recent examples…

    The Directory of the Office of Worship does not like the proposed translation of the Mass, claiming that Catholics won’t be able to understand the Mass which may lead to an exodus from the Church. He got visibly upset when it was mentioned that more Catholics today have college decrees than in the 60′s, when really drastic liturgical changes were at hand. When asked about including Gregorian Chant in Mass as expressed by VII, same Director was rejected this, saying people wouldn’t be relate to this form of music. (I get the impression that the chancery thinks they know more about liturgy than the Council Fathers) I could go on and on…

    Regarding Terri, a prominent moral theologian in the diocese said that since Terri didn’t have much of a brain left, she wasn’t human and it was OK to kill her. I still can’t get over this incredibly flawed logic. Bottom line — the bishop has faulty theologians advising him.

    Please, faithful readers of this blog, remember our little liturgically backwater diocese in you prayers.

  32. RBrown says:

    Again, I wonder how could Bishop Sheen have possibly thought that a language which locked into its unchanging language, Divine revelation and the unchanging truths of the faith, namely Latin, could possibly be inferior to a changing language full of colloquialisms, such as English.
    “Et cum Spiritu Tuo” as opposed to ” and also with you”.
    Disadvantage Advantage
    I do not think so.
    God bless you.
    Comment by danphunter1

    The argument for the vernacular obviously is based on the people understanding the liturgy.

    Fulton Sheen did not do studies in Rome. His grad work was at CU and at Louvain, Belgium.

  33. Henry Edwards says:

    BTW, a new bishop has been named for Springfield, Mo.

    Fr. Vann Johnston is the pastor of my local parish. I have never know a priest I thought more likely to make a wonderful bishop for ALL his flock. In addition to being a holy priest devoted to Eucharistic adoration, he is totally orthodox, completely fair to all, personal warm, and visibly keen of intellect. It is refreshing and reassuring to see such a priest plucked out of virtually nowhere to be appointed a bishop.

    In a half year as pastor here, the daily Masses have been completely “squared away” (Roman Canon on all feasts and solemnities, etc.), new more traditional hymnals have been ordered, altar servers are now vested in cassocks and surplices and hold communion patens and receive on the tongue, and discussion has been initiated about moving the tabernacle back to a central position behind the altar.

    This appointment is great news for everyone in Springfield-Cape Girardeau who loves properly and reverently celebrated liturgy, including expecially those who seek the traditional Latin Mass. He has been a steady and encouraging chancery friend of the Knoxville Latin Mass community, and played a significant role in our original indult.

  34. Nathan says:

    + JMJ +

    Given the discussion, my limited knowledge, and what appears (from the linked video) to be the emphasis of sacramental theology in this diocese, I worry about the large number of older Catholics there. Are they given “stones instead of bread” at the point in their lives when they have a greater need for the grace of final perseverance and the stakes are higher?

    In Christ,

  35. RBrown says:

    Henry,

    My brother lives in Asheville–a very nice drive from Knoxville to Asheville.

  36. RBrown says:

    Bp Lynch is employing garden variety Mass as Meal theology–no mention of the Sacrifice of the Mass.

  37. Henry Edwards says:

    Nathan: Are they given “stones instead of bread” at the point in their lives when they have a greater need for the grace of final perseverance and the stakes are higher?

    Many of those in the generation you refer to — who grew up in a faith and liturgy and devotional life that was suddenly snatched away just as they entered adulthood and looked forward to its consolation and sanctification throughout their lives; they where told, often contemptously, that what had been so holy was now despised — have suffered more than anyone else can readily understand. I’ve often wondered whether a quick red martrydom would really be worse than a long lingering white martyrdom, a whole lifetime of suffering painful spiritual anguish and deprivation every day, never being free of it.

    It’s all well and good to talk about Faith and Mass still being the same, but it sure doesn’t seem like it to one who’s known better — and perhaps is not sophisticated enough to think that the accidentals don’t matter — and when so many bishops, priests, and fellow Catholics clearly don’t share the same belief and devotion that we all once had.

  38. Hey Someone in St Pete,

    There’s a great young priest in a real backwater in your diocese, moved there directly following the tragedy with Terri. I wonder if he offers the TLM…

    ==============

    Off topic: I just did a quick search on google and found out why some have been taking particular exception to some remarks here on WDTPRS. It seems the atheist crowd, in particular, some of the Richard Dawkins crowd, have an axe to grind. What a compliment to WDTPRS that it is chosen for being so Catholic. /// Even more off topic: Thanks to WDTPRSers for making my first week of blogging a success. 5,100 visitors in the first week. Cheers!

  39. RBrown says:

    Re Dawkins,

    I had prepared a response to Brian Coughlan, but the thread had already been closed.

  40. Deborah says:

    Do you know where this theology comes from? It is directly from the heretical “Dutch Catechism”.

    This “New Church” catechism was considered as the one and only catechism of the Church in the 60′s, 70′s, and 80′s – it wasn’t since the Holy See did not approve it – and over one million copies were in circulation for a number of years around the world and memorized by droves of Catholics including seminarians and priests. The same kind of erroneous theology is also found in most student’s religion textbooks even today.

    I purchased a used copy of the catchism for $2 in order to read it for myself – it is bad. Here’s a quote and link to an informative article about this “New Church” (Dutch) catechism:

    “The most popular embodiment of the new ideology was the so-called Dutch Catechism. Published in 1966, it exuded the confident humanist optimism of a newly prosperous and questioning Dutch Church: the human race was essentially good; a rosy, accommodating stance towards the world was advocated; love replaced law; meal and community replaced sacrifice in the Mass; and feelings and experience replaced truth and doctrine.”

    http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1988/jul1988p14_564.html

  41. Legisperitus says:

    The big question for the TLM in Springfield is: Will Bishop Johnston start using his first instead of his middle name, or will he instead disclose what form “Vann” takes in the ablative case?

    : )

  42. TR says:

    [quote] Liturgically we’re better off [/quote]

    Sheen also said Teilhard de Chardin would go down as one of the finest theologians in history. That’s the problem with someone who doesn’t have an unpublished thought.

    Moral: If you want to be canonised, don’t write anything down

  43. Kyle says:

    I moved to Tampa about 8 months ago, and went through a very long process of visiting many parishes in the diocese looking for a reverent Novus Ordo Mass. The liturgical abuses are abundant in this diocese, and I’ve started making the weekly hour-long trek across Tampa Bay to the diocese’s cathedral where – every Sunday at 12:30 in a little side chapel – they offer a TLM. In spite of the long drive, it really is a blessing to have the old Mass available – even if it is in only one chapel of one parish in the entire diocese. The priest that says the Mass is the parish priest for another church in the diocese and is stretched very thin. This past week he asked us to pray for the Lord to bring forth more willing and able priests to assist, since he was told by Bishop Lynch that he was the only one in the entire diocese willing or able. This past week he was scheduled to say an 11:00 NO Mass and had to rush to make it to the chapel in time for the 12:30 TLM. He’ll be in a similar situation this coming Sunday. Please keep him, and our diocese, in your prayers.

  44. RBrown says:

    A few years ago I friend was thinking of becoming a chef and visited the Culinary Institute of America. When he returned, he said that I would never believe who was buried in the backyard . . . Teilhard.

    It seems that the CI of A bought an out SJ retreat house.

  45. RBrown wrote:

    “A few years ago I friend was thinking of becoming a chef and visited the Culinary Institute of America. When he returned, he said that I would never believe who was buried in the backyard . . . Teilhard.”

    Well I guess that’s what happens when you cook up a new theology!

    Ahh, the quiet ironies of histoire…

    Bon Appetit!

    Gordo

  46. RBrown,

    Actually, the CIA was the largest novitiate of The Company. When priests who knew the former splendour of the magnificent chapel go to see what it has now been transformed into, they cry.

  47. Lawrence Brindisi says:

    There are two places in the the diocese of St. Petersburg that currently offer the TLM. There is a third in the works. Sarasota also has a FSSP parish, that is fully intergrated with all sacraments following the 1962 missel.

    My dioceses of St. Petersburg is dominated at the chancery by an extreme left wing. It is hard to hind a good Novus Ordo mass or decent homily.

  48. RBrown says:

    Actually, the CIA was the largest novitiate of The Company. When priests who knew the former splendour of the magnificent chapel go to see what it has now been transformed into, they cry.
    Comment by Fr Renzo di Lorenzo

    A few years ago, using the Catholic Directory, I did some research, comparing 1964 to 1989 of US Jesuits in formation.

    1964: About 500 novices (I assumed that included both years) and about 4000 scholastics

    The 1989 numbers were about 10% of that: 50 novices and 400 scholastics.

  49. RBrown says:

    And: The chapel probably looks better now than it would if the Jesuits were still using it. At least, now no one’s is pretending it’s an appropriate place to say mass.

  50. Marianne Weidenborner says:

    Many good and holy riests suffer greatly in the Diocese of St. Petersburg. 8 years until Bishop Bob retires is a long time.

  51. Joanne Morgan says:

    Many good and holy riests suffer greatly in the Diocese of St. Petersburg. 8 years until Bishop Bob retires is a long time.