I have heard, and I think this may be anecdotal, that Card. George quipped that his successor might wind up dying in jail.
The England and Wales and Scotland are farther along in the culture war that we are in the USA.
From CNA:
Glasgow, Scotland, Jul 25, 2012 / 11:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Archbishop-designate Philip Tartaglia of Glasgow could see himself being imprisoned for speaking out in support of the traditional married family.
“I could see myself going to jail possibly at some point over the next 15 years, if God spares me, if I speak out,” Archbishop Tartaglia said in an interview with STV News July 24.
His comments came just a day before the Scottish government announced it would legislate in favor of same-sex “marriage.” Archbishop Tartaglia warned that the redefinition of marriage will have “enormous implications for religious liberty.”
“I am deeply concerned that today, defending the traditional meaning of marriage is almost considered ‘hate speech’ and branded intolerant. Such a response is undemocratic, closes debate and is highly manipulative,” he told CNA on July 24.
Last month the leading Scottish lawyer Aidan O’Neill warned that same-sex “marriage” legislation will radically undermine religious liberty in Scotland.
He predicted that a change in the law could result in employees being fired for opposing same-sex “marriage,” ministers and priests being sued for refusing to allow “wedding” ceremonies to take place in their churches, school children being forced to attend homosexual history lessons, and couples being rejected as foster parents if they oppose the new legislation.
[…]
REad the rest there.
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I’m not sure we’re so far behind the UK. The mayor of Boston– alleged Catholic Tom Menino — has said he’ll do everything he can to block Chick-Fil-A from coming into town because its founder made a statement supporting traditional marriage. This outrageous attempt to intimidate businesses and enact a financial cost to an expression of personal beliefs is a serious violation of the First Amendment. Yet Menino’s got media and public support. There’s a lot of hostility to religion here.
Forces are aligning for a persecution like we haven’t seen in a long time. Pray for strength and unity.
Archbishop Sheen used to say, “When the Church is holy, she is persecuted from without; when she is not holy, she is persecuted from within.” Let’s hope all of this means the Church is growing in holiness, because she is going to need it.
Here in England, the Catholics are waking up, a bit late. However, the problem has been the nicey-nicey, do not cause waves attitude of most of the hierarchy over the past 40 years. With the EU as we speak forcing governments to accept a document denying natural gender, stating it is a creation of culture, including religion, we could see parents persecuted for putting their girls in dresses. Also, the media, real Catholic media and bloggers will be under the laws.
Could we all just buy an island and declare it the official Catholic country of the world, run by Catholic laws and tradition? If the Saudis can do it, why can’t we?
Supertradmum – Malta is officially Catholic, so you could always go there.
Bl. Clemens von Galen, Bishop of Muenster, very forthrightly and very publicly criticized the Hitler regime, often right to its face, saying that he was speaking out today because tomorrow he might be in prison and unable to say anything. And the Nazis never dared to lay hands on him, for fear of the people. Surely there is a lesson in that for bishops and priests, and indeed all Catholics. We all ought to adopt Bishop Galen’s episcopal motto: nec laudibus nec timore: neither praise nor fear.
Supertradmum – as appealing as that island sounds, the problem lies in the fact that it’s part of our Catholic mandate to go forth and evangelize so that souls might be converted. :/ I think we’re just going to have to resign ourselves to sticking it out, standing up, and keeping one eye on that far and shining shore that hopefully awaits us all…
In 2009, gay marriage was imposed on Iowa by our Supreme Court. Already the forces of intolerance are actively prowling the state looking for signs of bigotry and homophobia. Many people are reticent to speak up for fear of ad hominem attacks and worse (potential employment consequences for example). The vast majority of Iowans consider marriage to consist of the union of one man and one woman, but you certainly would be led to believe the opposite based upon those who are most vocal (i.e. those who support gay marriage). Beam me up Scotty.
“…school children being forced to attend homosexual history lessons”
We already have that foul mess in California, with legislation imposing that ‘education’ from Kindergarten on up.
I can (somewhat) vouch for the Cdl. George comment. He made a very similar comment at the Divine Liturgy celebrated at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Chicago when the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Patriarch was there, (this was September of 2010, if memory serves,) and I was personally in attendance that day. I thought at the time he was being quite bold, for a man who’d defined his Chicago career by avoiding making waves whenever possible. I was actually quite surprised the media didn’t latch onto it to portray him as an old, out-of-touch fool (not that I thought he was for it, but we all know how the MSM can be.)
The full version of the original quote is along the lines of, “I will likely die in my bed, my successor in prison, and his successor as a martyr.” I’m pretty sure I heard him say it on our local Relevant Radio at some point (though I rarely listen to the station because it’s so pro-Medjugorie.)
Well, the Archbishop and the rest of us, if necessary, will just have to go to jail.
After all Christians have been persecuted before, by the National Socialists, the Marxist Socialists and now by the Western Secularist “Democrats”
History has not come to an end. On the contrary we are right in the middle of it.
And we should not forget that our Christian brethren are suffering terribly at present in, for example, the Middle East and in Northern Nigeria
Oops. I forget the audience is mainly U S of A. For “Democrats” read “Democracies”!
A professor at our local university is trying to have Chick-fil-A kicked off of the campus because of it’s pro family view. He is the advisor to the LGBT students.
The schools of “higher education” are always talking about lack of money for worthwhile studies–yet this university will have a minor in LGBT studies(?) for the first time. Apparently they have more money than they need and -as a taxpayer-have informed my state representative of my view. I get the feeling that they are all hiding under their desks on this issue. This is in an area that used to be a very Catholic part of the state.
I was at the Diocesan Pere Marquette awards in Peoria several years ago when Cardinal George told us to prepare our children to be martyrs. This article from yesterday’s Chicago Tribune shows us what is going to be increasing: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/ct-met-chicago-chick-fil-a-20120725,0,929023.story The Alderman is refusing a business permit to Chick-fil-A because the corporate head supports traditional marriage.
Well, at my previous assignment there was a big push for parishioners to picket in front of a “gentleman’s club” down the street which surely was their right and seemed to be based on the idea that a community has some standing with respect to permitting or prohibiting businesses whose underlying principles are at odds with community standards. It seems that both for Boston and an area of Chicago the statements of the Chick-Fil-A president were offensive enough that they did not want to permit additional CFA stores in their areas.
My guess is that in general we might agree that communities have some degree of authority with regard to businesses that are permitted, otherwise there could be massage parlors on every corner. Not enriching the business of a man who has made public discriminatory statements seems fair to me.
With regard to this bishop, and the Philadelphia bishop, making outrageous claims about being jailed, etc., I think these are just more examples of “Henny Penny Logic.” In other words catastrophizing that things aren’t going my way, thus proclaiming far and wide that the sky is falling down.
First of all, the marriage rights issue is about preserving equal protection under the law for all people, regardless of sexual orientation. Second, no one is going to force the Catholic church to marry same sex couples any more than they would force the church to conduct a bris. The sky really is not falling down.
I think the hyperbole really does not help us in the long run.
@ frjim4321: Except he didn’t make any discriminatory statements. CNN spun the story to get the most publicity from it.
See this article: http://www.getreligion.org/2012/07/wheres-the-beef-what-the-chick-fil-a-boss-really-said/
And from the original interview at http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=38271
Some have opposed the company’s support of the traditional family. “Well, guilty as charged,” said Cathy when asked about the company’s position.
“We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that.
“We operate as a family business … our restaurants are typically led by families; some are single. We want to do anything we possibly can to strengthen families. We are very much committed to that,” Cathy emphasized.
“We intend to stay the course,” he said. “We know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles.”
My above comment at 5:30 should have everything after “some have opposed…………” in italics. It is all a quote from the linked article.
frjim4321”Not enriching the business of a man who has made public discriminatory statements seems fair to me.”
so basically you would deny people the right to live by their religious beliefs. i think that qualifies as religious persecution.
and–“First of all, the marriage rights issue is about preserving equal protection under the law for all people, regardless of sexual orientation.” no it is about the institution of a protected class with rights that supersede those of others.
A “gentleman’s club” causes certain things to occur in a neighborhood. Casinos as well, which is why they, too, are highly regulated. As are establishments that sell alcohol. I can see why zoning would be an issue in those cases. What goes on at a Chick-fil-A? Not sure how selling chicken sandwiches (the company already said they do not discriminate in hiring or serving, so discriminatory actions are not involved) can be morally offensive to anyone except people from PETA, I guess.
Poohbear and Indulgentiam . . . no, I would not deny his right to live by his religious beliefs, but I don’t have to patronize his business and a neighborhood shouldn’t be forced to permit him to do business there. Another example, SCOTUS says BSA can discriminate against homosexuals, but that doesn’t mean I have to sponsor a troop at my parish.
Fr. Jim, I am tired of folks, the lefties and the people who want to bury their heads in the sand and believe that everything is all right, saying, or implying, that “[X] will never happen.” [X] is happening and will worsen. Who’d ever thought that something as unnatural as gay “marriage” would not only be happening, but the support of which would be the held as the gold standard – often the ONLY standard – upon which one is judged? I think even support for abortion rights has taken a bit of a back seat to gay “marriage,” though they are both the top sacraments of the Culture of Death. To think, I used to laugh at the concept of the Culture of Death not so long ago, thinking it was over-dramatic.
Who would have thought, 5 years ago or so, that “hate” would become watered down enough to be synonymous with “disagree,” yet used to effect the same impact as the true meaning of the word? The same with the manipulations of the words, “diversity,” “tolerance,” “bigot,” and “homophobe.” That private businesses – photographers, bed and breakfasts, and such – would be forced to take on business conflicting with their religious or personal beliefs? So much for “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”
The world is growing more hostile against Christians, and faithful Catholic Christians especially. (Okay, according to Fr. Z’s post today, maybe not Iran so much. But I digress.) I daresay I am one of the pitifully few conservatives working in my institution of higher education. There’s no such thing as education anymore. It’s been replaced by social engineering, inside and outside of the classroom. The influence of the gay agenda is extremely strong. Don’t kid yourself. Don’t kid others, either.
We have narcissist for a president and a media who feeds his ego, along with Hollywood and plenty of others further down the food chain. We have a corrupt, dishonest media who hates the truth and the Church. We have millions of Catholics who are ignorant of their faith and too damned lazy to learn about it and look past twisted sound bites to understand what’s really going on, and more than a few proudly heretical Catholics who are too happy to tear down the Church.
You mark my words, Fr. Jim, things are as bad as they seem, and they are getting worse. If Obama gets another four years, and unfortunately, I think he is, we’ll Cardinal George’s quote will be fast-tracked to becoming reality. God have mercy on us.
I support Chick-Fil-A and enjoy their sandwiches. By the way, they are closed on Sundays to allow their employees time to worship God if they so choose. Mr. Cathy is an evangelical Christian. God bless him for practicing his faith.
frjim4321–everything you said is an oxymoron. If you are refusing him the right to do business and thereby feed his family which by the way goes to “the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” thingy in the Bill of Rights. Then i submit that YES, based on his religious beliefs you and the homosexual lobby are denying those things guarantied him in the Bill of Rights.
The Sicilian Woman—I absolutely agree! and who would have thought that a Catholic Priest would get on a public blog and defend sodomy in express disobedience to the Church he has vowed to obey. and to scandalize and scatter the sheep he has vowed to protect
By the way, is it just me or has CNN and HLN (Headline News) both been running an inordinate number of pro-LGBT stories lately? Where is L. Brent Bozell’s Media Research Center on this? I’d love to get some stats.
http://www.mrc.org/
sorry didn’t finish the paragraph—Then i submit that YES, based on his religious beliefs you and the homosexual lobby are denying those things guarantied him in the Bill of Rights. Which of course is by definition religious persecution.
The Sicilian Woman, thank you for disagreeing in a polite manner which does not attack me personally or professionally.
@frjim4321–i did not attack you, i merely stated your position in Catholic terms. It is not my truth that i am defending but the truths of the Catholic Church and i would be lacking in charity if i did not speak them clearly and without ambiguity i.e sugar coating.
[24]The Lord bless thee, and keep thee. [25] The Lord shew his face to thee, and have mercy on thee.[26] The Lord turn his countenance to thee, and give thee peace.
“homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” per CCC #2357.
“sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman.” CCC #2360
“the parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman.” CCC #
“the parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman.” CCC #1625
acardinal… “the parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman” … correct, but obviously that relates to sacramental marriage, and the church applies the term marriage to other dyads including civil marriage and natural marriage. As mentioned previously the church does not used the term “marriage” univocally.
frjim4321 said: “the church applies the term marriage to other dyads including civil marriage and natural marriage. As mentioned previously the church does not used the term “marriage” univocally.”
If by the euphemism “dyad” you mean “a man and a woman”, then you are correct, Fr. If by “dyad” you are trying to insinuate that the Church regards a same-sex couple as capable of contracting a natural marriage, I believe you are trying to mislead. Can you cite us an example of a “dyad” the Church as recognized as marriage partners who are other than a male and a female?
Sissy, thanks, no, I did not mean it imply that the church would understand a same sex dyad as being valid matter for a natural marriage.
frjim4321 says: Poohbear and Indulgentiam . . . no, I would not deny his right to live by his religious beliefs, but I don’t have to patronize his business and a neighborhood shouldn’t be forced to permit him to do business there.
This is entirely backwards. It is not a businessman who “forces” anybody to do anything by opening up a shop in a neighborhood; rather, it is the local authorities, via the coercive police power, that forces people — ultimately, physically — to do or not do things. Individuals do not, by the legitimate exercise of their right to private property, engage in coercion; but governments have the power to confiscate property, throw people in jail and even execute them for not falling into line.
And I’m puzzled by your belief that the Catholic Church is in no danger from the authorities. The Catholic Church is and always has been the greatest obstacle to those bent on evil, and our governments are currently bent on evil.
frjim4321 said: “I did not mean it imply that the church would understand a same sex dyad as being valid matter for a natural marriage.”
Thanks for the clarification, Fr. I guess I don’t see your point in making that distinction then. By the way, no governmental agency has a right to deny a business permit on the basis of political speech. It’s a clear violation of the First Amendment.
I’ll just throw this thought out there regarding where I see things going in the culture wars.
Let’s say I have a gay co-worker, “Dave.” I get along with him as I do my other co-workers, keeping my mouth shut with regards to gay issues. Dave, is “marrying” his partner, “Ray.” I’m invited to the wedding. I simply decline and I do not send a present given that I don’t believe a valid marriage is taking place, one according to God or to natural law, but I give no reasons for my lack of involvement in the “wedding.” Do you think, with the way things are going, that my lack of attendance and gifting of this wedding would go unnoticed, unquestioned and unpunished? Do you think I’d still have a job after I chose whom not to associate with as a private individual?
If you do, you’re not paying attention or you are in denial. If you do, you are in for a rude awakening in our lifetimes. The slope gets more slippery from here.
To me, the real danger is how we are being forced by the power of the State to accept and approve of and even assist in the occurance of what has always been understood as unacceptable behavior. I personally think it started with divorce and how everyone is supposed to “support” everyone regardless of their choices.
TOLERANCE
The latest “Theological” virtue.
I’ve seen a bumper sticker that says “tolerance is for those with no convictions”
By “tolerance” we are being asked (required?) to accept, support, condone, defend and approve all behavior, be it evil or destructive to society.
We are free to choose good or evil. True. God gave us that freedom.
But we are not free to lie and say that good is evil or that evil is good.
For if we lie, we betray our own selves, our own consciences, our very being.
The State is now trying to force us to lie and say evil is good and that we should accept, support, condone, defend and approve this evil as if it were a good.
If we don’t lie, we will be boycotted, not allowed to be free to do business, taxed, investigated and discriminated against until the State forces us to lie and accept, support condone, defend and approve of ONLY what the State deems appropriate.
Tolerance is a one way street: their street.
We must tolerate evil. We must tolerate lies.
But the State will not tolerate Truth.
Anyone who speaks the Truth will be taxed, investigated and discriminated against.
We gave the State that power in the election booth and our youth will be voting as the education system taught them how to think (or not think). Education has become the powerful tool of propaganda and not educated Truth. The young have not learned the value of reason, only the power of propaganda.
They are the Achilles Heel of our country. “Tolerance” has become for them a cry to virtue, not realizing that what they are “tolerating” is evil, itself, because they have not been taught to recognize evil. And there it is again, as Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul V and John Paul II said: “The sin of this generation is the loss of the sense of sin”. The young have not learned that intolerance is not a sin, but a virtue. (by this I mean intolerance to sin, not the sinner. for the sinner we must always pray)
Hello Fr Jim,
First of all, the marriage rights issue is about preserving equal protection under the law for all people, regardless of sexual orientation.
The problem is that this “equal protection” must necessarily extend to allowing gay couples to adopt or have custody of children.
And permitting such a thing is a profound abuse of those children. Why is there no concern for the right of these children to be raised by a mother and a father?
The Sicilian Woman, I have lost more than one job for standing up for the truth of the Catholic faith and I call that being a Christian in an evil world. If we compromise, we are on the slippery slope to hell. It becomes a habit. There is no way one can be a Christian, a Catholic and go to a civil marriage. We are supporting evil, a grave sin by our presence. This also goes for attending marriages outside the church, such as beach weddings, when Catholics have fallen away. We cannot pretend that sin is not being committed.
Either we are for Christ or against Him.
Poverty is a better choice than supporting evil. We cannot support sin and the fact that those who engage in it are seriously in danger of eternal death. Your witness is key. None of these laws would be passed if Catholics were not tolerating evil. We have brought this on ourselves. There are a billion Catholics in the world. If all believed and were strong in their baptismal graces, we would not be facing all this coming persecution.
The Sicilian Woman, turn the tables on the government. If you get fired because of your religious beliefs, you can file an EEOC complaint. . . “race, color, CREED” cannot be used to discriminate, or so they say.
Sicilian Woman…I applaud you! Excellent commentary and conclusions. I happen to agree with you completely. Your words are pointedly prophetic, in my opinion, and spot on. (a nod to the Olympics)
It is astounding, ASTOUNDING, to see how quickly the concept of gay marriage has become a veritable, unassailable “truth”, one that cannot be disputed! To only defend our cultural, never mind religious, concept of marriage and mating as between one man and one woman is comparable to a hate crime! It is actually approaching that definition, and this is beyond what even my imaginings were only a few years ago. I anticipated this, but not at this lightning speed, and not with the apparent cultural takeover, which could more actually be called “fear”. It is truly fear that keeps many from speaking out, and sometimes with good reason, these gay activists are aggressive fascists and have no apparent concerns with stomping on the rights of opponents, nor depriving someone of an occupation or position if they are “offended”. It will take alot of people being extraordinarily courageous and even bold to hold the line. Most especially of course we alter society by voting and facilitating the favorable votes of others.
Our decline has been a free fall, our deterioration, breathtaking to watch.
Bishops, you have, without intending it surely, facilitated our decline. Like Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind, you can still join the fight, and yes, better late than never.
The Sicilian Woman, (your 626 post , as well as subsequent other commentators ): I’ve never seen it expressed so clearly. Nor so frighteningly. It’s time for all of us to see what we are made of. In my case, this may be a very good thing.
Please let us pray for each other.