Across the pond at RU-486 (aka The Pill aka The Tablet), we find this:
‘Conformist’ younger clergy wary of Francis – Dublin archbishop
Pope Francis’ courage is causing disquiet among those with “a very conformist and closed Catholicism” the Archbishop of Dublin has warned.In a speech given in Melbourne, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin referred to a young curate who recently told his parish priest he was not at all happy with some things the Pope had said.
The young priest felt they “were not in line with what he had learned in the seminary” and he suggested that they were “making the faithful insecure and even encouraging those who do not hold the orthodox Catholic beliefs to challenge traditional teaching.”
The archbishop warned conservative and progressive Catholics [“conservative and progressive”? Watch what happens now…] against becoming “closed in” within our own ideas. He also acknowledged that Irish Catholicism had a strong tradition of strict teaching.
Responding to the comments, Fr Seamus Ahearne of the Association of Catholic Priests said the Archbishop’s words were “apt” and that the Church in Ireland needs to hear more comments like this. [The Ass of Catholic Priests wants more warnings for progressives?]
He said the archbishop’s concern about the “young curate” was a familiar one as many were concerned that the few young priests there are in the Irish Church [Get that?] appear to embrace a very traditionalist view of Church.
They are “so locked into a past model of priesthood” he commented and said this manifested itself in “the way that they dress up, the way they celebrate Mass, and in their views.” [A “past” model of priesthood. Imagine what he means by that.]
They didn’t, I notice, find a priest on the other side of the issue, a conservative or traditional priest, to react. Conservatives get an additional pounding, but the progressives? They get a pass.
Meanwhile, Ireland’s seminaries are empty.
At this point, I remind the readership about Pope Benedict’s heartfelt Letter to Catholics in Ireland. The Pope was reacting to how Irish priests had abuse so many children, thus creating hurt and havoc in the Church there. In paragraphs 14ff, Benedict asked for a return to traditional practices which had fallen away. He saw the practices as a remedy for the many ills the Irish had experienced, which suggests that the dropping of those practices in way contributed to the problem.
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Not surprising, as a quick squint through Wiki will confirm.
To be fair, Archbishop Diarmuid was speaking on THE JOY OF THE GOSPEL and on the importance of living the Gospel in order to share it effectively. ( I was puzzled by the TABLET news brief and have read the whole text via the Dublin archdiocesan website).
The young curate referred to – not the main point of the address in Melbourne some 3 weeks ago! – was publicly expressing misgivings about the Pope and his teaching. Not a commendable practice, surely? And it worries his pp who mentioned the problem to the Archbishop.
I do not think that Emeritus Pope Benedict would speak of his successor Pope Francis thus and nor should any of us.
Now that there’s been a regime change, the progressives are emboldened to bring out their true colors. No doubt Archbishop Martin was all “hermeneutic of continuity” and applauding the traditional turn of young priests when Francis’s predecessor was in charge. These statements of his are only going to discourage more orthodox young men in Ireland, who will go elsewhere for seminary—and deny his poor flock more priests.
I knew the Franciscans on Arch Street in Boston, and I knew the friars running the place were progressive (there were enough clues—the mass style, the centering prayer, etc)—but for the most part they toed the line under the Benedictine regime. But now…well, here’s a shot of the friars preparing their booth at Boston’s “Gay Pride” celebration in June. Note the slogan they’ve put on their sign:
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen2/14b/pride-week/about-pride-week/arch-st_0309_380.jpg
Now those other Franciscans of the Immaculate offering perpetual adoration among the poor down in New Bedford? There can be no tolerance for their “closed” version of Catholicism. Better to participate in a gay pride festival. That’s what the New, Kinder, Friendlier Catholicism is all about.
It was rumoured at the height of the crisis in Ireland that B XVI might sack the entire hierarchy, abolish all dioceses and reconstitute the Church. What a pity that didn’t happen – the Church in Ireland is rotten to its hollowed out core.
Philbert:
Where does it say that this curate was PUBLICLY criticising Pope Francis???
The clear implication of the THREE references to this priest is that he was merely expressing private reservations about aspects of this papacy to his parish priest. The Archbishop does NOT suggest that these concerns were made public. In fact, if there were young priests expressing concerns about Pope Francis in public, it would be a much bigger media story in Ireland…
There are only 2 priests in Dublin under the age of 40, and not too many more between 40 and 50 (Let that sink in. What’s going on that there are only 2 priests under 40…). This means that the young priest who expressed PRIVATE concerns to his PP is probably very identifiable to a large number of people in the Dublin diocese.
This priest would be very justified if he felt annoyed at the bishop for exploiting him as a cheap talking point for a speech in Australia. I imagine that he would also be annoyed at his PP for “reporting” him to the bishop, and perhaps that PP is also embarrassed that he has been caught out speaking about his curate behind his back, and that his private conversation with the archbishop has also been exploited to pad out the archbishop’s speech. The relationship between PP and curate may well have been badly damaged by this episode. What a mess, and all just to add a bit of human colour to the archbishop’s sociological discourse…
But what’s worse is the violation of the conscience of the young curate. He expressed private concerns to his PP; he is now held up by his bishop on the international stage as a bad priest. There’s not much “joy of the Gospel” in that.
I’m afraid philbert is quite wrong. As the published full text shows very clearly, the reported private remarks of this curate formed the starting point and the conclusion of his bishop’s speech. I think it reflects badly on Archbishop Martin’s judgement.
Given that Archbishop Martin has only managed to acquire a grand total of two priests under age 40 in his entire archdiocese (Irish Times, July 4, 2014), this doesn’t sound like much of a problem for him.
Perhaps he can fob off his two remaining youngsters on the Americans. That will get rid of that pesky conformism that’s surely the bane of the archdiocese’s retirement homes.
The characterization of authentic, identifiable and licit clerical vesture as “dressing up” doesn’t strike me as particularly charitable. However grave the Church’s situation may remain in Ireland, to mock priests and religious who decline in their everyday dress to hide Her light under a bushel seems hardly calculated to improve it.
As for the mutterings about “conformity,” the point is unclear. A century’s steady decline in, and increasing deprecation and perversion of, Catholic belief and practice (now, one hopes, stayed by a new generation) have alienated countless souls and contributed damnably to the deformation of the world we are charged to bring to Christ. The sooner we resume conformity both to His Cross and to the faith and tradition of His Church, the more souls She can rescue from the impending cataclysm for which we may expect to be called to account.
Oh right, Ireland is just fine…LOL. So he wants the olden things from the secularists of the 1970s but the things from a few years prior in Holy Mother Church are, verboten?! Sounds like a Relativist Dictator, in the flesh! It’s either his way or the highway, yes? Everyone let his gang work out all their weirdness upon innocents in the Church for, many decades, but, if the different thing you propose is just solid orthodoxy which benefits innocents everywhere…well, you are not going to be permitted to do that because you must get in lockstep and be exactly like us, right now! Because you can see the results of our good preaching everywhere…LOL
It seems a large part of the church is marxist. It mirrors society. As in mainstream society, the bias against tradition and good is so pervasive and much of it so subtle it’s hard to detect. As in mainstream society, this marxist element wishes to corrupt all. It is largely responsible for decimating the church. Ireland’s decline in catholicism is nothing that should have Bishops going against traditionalism but should have them reinforced when they see that the old truths are the new truths that this hollow world really seeks.
As a fully active novus ordo type who has found his faith strengthened by traditionalism, I vacillate back and forth as to whether these leftists have any sort of point at all that The Holy Spirit is trying to communicate. In my gut and my mind I keep coming back to the thought of “hell” no, with a strong emphasis on hell being the source of it. The fruits of it are visible to all. Nancy Pelosi, LCWR, the rampant homosexualists, abortion/contraception supporting, adultery via civil divorce and civil remarriage and their fellow travelers shine like warning beacons. Warning beacons that blast out a demand to be obedient to God’s law and sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.
Archbishop Diarmuid Martin at first tried to sound balanced by warning against conservative and liberal extremes. Were he to stop there, I feel that his comments would have been quite appropriate. He then says too much by laying into the young Priesthood, and their manner of dress. At that, he exposes his true colors. Does what he said about young Priests seem at all “pastoral” to anyone? I suppose that lack of kindness or pastoral concern for those who love authentic Catholicism is what I find most infuriating. I have also witnessed a retired Monsignor, well respected in my Diocese, who proceeded after a Mass to bash “young hotshot Priests” who come in and change everything (this was said amongst friends at my old, dissident Parish to rousing applause). Again, I take comfort that the old guard’s days are numbered. You cannot be a wimp and be Catholic anymore.
I wish that someone had stepped up to warn about young priests off their rockers in the 1970s…like, someone for whom it was their responsibility, like, a seminary rector etc. The extremism of that era now attempts to define and moderate the moral and liturgical center of the Church…LOL
I live in the west of Ireland. A year ago our parish welcomed a new priest fresh out of the seminary.
I have to say this new priest is a God-send. Every Saturday before the evening Mass he slips quietly into the Church and says the rosary alone in the pew.
The early arrivals from the congregation, who are positively chatty within the church before Mass, go silent when Father arrives and silently prays.
I have been to him for confession a number of times and his orthodoxy is so very refreshing I could weep. He is ‘old school’, and yet no more than 28 – 30 years old.
He is indefatigable and his sermons are well-prepared. From the pulpit he frequently and insistently advises the congregation to get to confession and his sermons have both a solid doctrinal and catechetical thrust.
I thank God for this ‘conformist’ young man and I am purposely being vague about further details for fear he gets shipped out to a re-education camp somewhere.
We all know there have been very poor and publicly sinful popes in our history, along with many, many so-inclined bishops. But I must wonder: Has there ever, until now, been a pope or bishop who criticized Catholics for being too Catholic? Showing disfavor toward young people who resist secularism must be a new low for the church.
The young priests being insulted for their Catholicism need to get themselves with the post-VatII orders, such as FSSP. The glory days of those who speak with contempt of them and try to undercut their faith are dwindling to a very few.
What has been the fruit of Ireland’s clergy having dumped tradition and reverent celebration of the Mass for so long? So, we want to do more of the same?
Sonshine135 wrote Were he to stop there, I feel that his comments would have been quite appropriate. He [+Martin] then says too much by laying into the young Priesthood, and their manner of dress. At that, he exposes his true colors.
In the Tablet article, those comments were made by Fr. Ahearne of the ACP – not +Martin.
What’s with the progressives’ utter disdain for definite articles?
See “…traditionalist view of Church” and “past model of priesthood”.
I see it all the time. It means something, but I can’t figure out what. They must subscribe to different model of English language. Maybe that’s why Bishop wants progressive way of being Church.
If the archbishop only has two priests under 40, and he explicitly said that the priest in question is young, I don’t know why he didn’t go all the way and use the priest’s name. I mean, sheesh, this way he’s also rebuking the other young priest who didn’t say anything.
Archbishops and bishops are supposed to have a fatherly love for their priests. This doesn’t seem a very prudent way to go about showing it, even if one did need to put the kibosh on someone criticizing the Holy Father.
It amazes me. In his diocese liberal clerics can teach heresy, speak badly of Pope Benedict without worry, commit pedophilia and get protected, yet a young inexperienced priest speaks about his concerns to a fellow priest and the Bishop publicly humiliates him. How in the world can the Holy Spirit bless the Irish Church with leaders like this? If someone was trying to destroy the Church, he couldn’t do a better job.
By the way, this is the same Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop of Dublin who went MIA when Ireland was in the midst of debating legislation, ultimately passed, which shamed Ireland with the most liberal abortion law in the world (abortion was rendered permissible throughout all 9 months of pregnancy).
The ecclesiastical penalty of automatic excommunication for cooperating Catholic politicians was muted and the faithful were scandalized.
“Again, I take comfort that the old guard’s days are numbered. You cannot be a wimp and be Catholic anymore.”
A rousing Amen to this.
My grandkids will hopefully never have to endure the cross of sixties, babyboomer liberal whackaloon “theologians”. Please God. They will have far more to deal with then.
Ah, the generation gap… I can’t help but read articles like this and smile.
The Archbishop seems Middle of the Road. As someone said, the only thing found in the middle of the road is yellow strips and dead animals.
Let’s do this again:
As someone said, the only things found in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead animals.
Here is what is interesting about this lame attempt, historically, and ongoing. The current thrust is to attempt to say that we in the West as Catholics must buy into a bizarre and disconnected notion of Holy Mother Church as a mere reflection and iteration of 20th century Western politics. So, the rhetoric goes, there are “extremists” on both sides with a center or moderate middle. This in itself is a bit of a fiction but surprisingly great numbers feel comfortable with assigning this reductionist and odd role to Holy Mother Church.
In reality the Church is not a reflection of 20th century political poles with traditionalists and dissenters seesawing a great moderate practicing majority in the center. It has never been, and will never be, this despite the desperate attempts of some to say it is so.
Dissenters (and this is where the political analogy starts, and ends) everywhere always want to pretend that they are moderate, that they possess the center, and, in the situation of the Church in the West, that they possess and are the sensum fidelium.
The recent discussion on the Synod is instructive here. Dissenters will have us believe that Catholics divorce upwards of 60%, some staggering number, dictating to all that nothing is workable about the Faith. The reality, aside from their pressure tactics rooted in materialist politics, is that Catholics divorce at considerably less rates than the general population. Young practicing Catholics further are happy and invested in sacramental life including marriage.
When one sees spin like this one must remember that Holy Mother Church is a communion. Within the orthodoxy of this communion, there is an incredible and beautiful living and dynamic diversity…so we have many Rites, for instance, Eastern, and, now, thanks to Pope Benedict, an open appreciation for the Extraordinary Form, we have reverent and worthy Novus Ordo according to the genuine precepts of Second Vatican (and not according to bizarre experimentation by Western elites), we have all of the spiritual practices, prayer, devotions that the entire tradition gives us. We have different religious orders, spirituality and charisms. Even specific Rites. We have the monastic tradition. All of these are a wellspring for a life within orthodoxy and thanks be to God they are now being renewed by a great many.
Whereas with dissent, and one sees this in so many places, a somewhat narcissistic or selfish desire arises that a group of elites wishes to engineer, treating the faithful and the Church as a McDonald’s drive through for their wants…and then they will seize upon this or that sort of disconnected notion possibly from tradition, devoid and gutted of its context, and attempt under this disguise to justify and agitate for it, as if somehow that it is within orthodoxy, within that communion.
Development of theology in the communion just does not work that way. Orthodoxy is already equipped to interact with and change with, all times and places and souls wherever they may live. And one sees this playing out right now, in the West that has rediscovered the beauty of tradition, and on other continents and places as well. Young people desire this and it has nothing to do with a false dichotomy that some would try to put up in rhetorical ways to somehow say that tradition and “conservatives” (whatever that was supposed to mean) are opposed or unrelated or whatever nonsense of the moment.
And, N.B., as I have said many times, the current political sphere that some deem “liberal” in this country, which some who identify as Catholics believe they righteously support, is not at all “liberal” with the identifiers of that area of politics. What we see now is grotesque, with its religious scapegoating and hatred and attacks, and the craving of so much more abortion in places that can well afford to support these families, children and mothers, and fathers, in order to serve up yet a genocide with the idea that we are enlightened and reasonable, just because no one may say that ten minutes of whatever sexual hook up is not worth murdering our offspring over and declaring it a civil right…it’s easy to see (and experience) that what we have going now at least in the US and I suspect the same in Ireland seeing how the country fell prey to abortion extremists…is totalitarianism.
I will seriously pray for this unnamed, possibly (from above reports) lone priest in Dublin. It must be difficult to get singled out for attack and persecution in that way. I hope that he continues his good work for the Church. Young Catholics desperately need to reconnect with orthodoxy and tradition and as any Sunday in church in the suburbs will tell you, deserve to take a place at the sacraments. Reverent liturgy, thanks be to God, is bringing young people back.
I will also be praying for this prelate. It sounds like he is living in fear. I sure know what that is like. The pressure tactics behind the scenes of those who crave the abortion and all that goes with it are only to be experienced to be believed. I expect he is under considerable pressure, and he is likely very afraid too. Don’t forget also that some people (often double life living types in the Church), if they have one’s ear will not be afraid to tell all kinds of wild calumny dressed up as something well meaning. There is no means that will not be tried by this crew to get the desired ends. It sounds very familiar, that a young priest who is willing to teach the tradition has likely been singled out and targeted in the harshest possible way and all is going according to someone’s plan when a prelate speaks out uncharitably in this way.
Some of my favorite dear priests growing up were Irish. As much as my heart years for a Latin ordinary and Canon in the Novus Ordo, I love the inflection of the Irish accent as they say the doxology. Makes me sad to see such diminished numbers.
“The way they dress up…” Surely a prelate of Mother Church would not be speaking of the cassock or sacred vestments with so much history & heritage in the Roman Church?
I’ve read the Archbishop’s entire speech online and, while I certainly might agree that he was unwise, given the extreme paucity of young priests in his Archdiocese and the many other problems, to have used that example as an opening and closing – it seems a bit like playing to the gallery to me – it’s pretty ub-objectionable in itself as a whole, being mainly concerned with evangelisation. And it should be remembered that Abp. Martin was very early off the block in establishing the Dublin Latin Mass Chaplaincy, directly after the issue of SP in 2007
http://www.latinmassdublin.ie/
and he has himself celebrated a Pontifical High Mass. No other Archdiocese in Ireland, or Archbishop (and certainly not my own), has done anything similar, to my knowledge.
The joke, as though one were needed in that connection, is the bitter Pill’s 4-para summary of the speech, followed by three paragraphs from the very small and irrelevant, in terms of overall numbers, Association of Catholic Priests. I bet the Archbishop’s remark in his speech that ” Pope Francis is not a relativist. He clearly sets himself within the tradition of the Church as regards doctrine.” did not go down at all well in that quarter!
robtbrown: The originator of this gem, which is actually “the only things you find in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadilloes,” is Jim Hightower, the long-time head of the Texas Dept. of Agriculture. A hard-core lefty from way back, but as you can tell, pretty darn funny.
Uxixu wrote: “The way they dress up…” Surely a prelate of Mother Church would not be speaking of the cassock or sacred vestments with so much history & heritage in the Roman Church?
A prelate didn’t. That was Fr. Ahearne of the ACP – not +Martin.
Uxixu: “Surely a prelate of Mother Church would not be speaking of the cassock or sacred vestments with so much history & heritage in the Roman Church?”
No, he didn’t say that – it was the Association of Catholic Priests spokesperson who did.
Humblest apologies . My critics are correct, and the address does not claim that the curate expressed his misgivings in public – and that’s a relief. Laus Deo.
I’m sad that he doesn’t seem to have resolved his disquiet in conversation with his pp, or surely the senior would not have felt he needed to say anything to the Archbishop?
Oh so the Ass. of Catholic Priests tried to hijack this prelate’s speech and took something and dislocated it from its context in order to justify, themselves? OK. Praying for them too.
Did not know they still had young priests in Ireland; are there still seminaries there? And if there are any young priests, naturally they would be of a traditional mind as that is indeed our future!
TomG says:
robtbrown: The originator of this gem, which is actually “the only things you find in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadilloes,” is Jim Hightower, the long-time head of the Texas Dept. of Agriculture. A hard-core lefty from way back, but as you can tell, pretty darn funny.
I know. I changed “armadillos” to dead animals” because this blog is also read in Europe, where there are no armadillos. I didn’t know, however, that Jim Hightower had been head of Texas Dept of Ag. I only knew of him as a member of the media.
I guess the NunsBus have sought/applied for, and received, a religious liberty exemption from the Obama administration?
Joseph-Mary says:
Did not know they still had young priests in Ireland; are there still seminaries there? And if there are any young priests, naturally they would be of a traditional mind as that is indeed our future!
There is only one seminary now in Ireland. All the rest have closed.
Maybe the Church there should bring in American Jesuits as consultants. They have great experience in closing and selling building that were once filled with young men in formation.
robtbrown: Your change is understandable; however, it takes a little of the fun out of it! But I guess a little too much local humour {smirk} there.
“There are only 2 priests in Dublin under the age of 40”
A recent post here mentioned that the Diocese of Nashville ordained 9 new priests this year. Before the appointment of Bishop David Choby 9 years ago, the Diocese of Nashville looked—to some nearby outsiders, at least—like a typical “progressive” diocese (perhaps not unlike Ireland looks from a much greater distance) judging from its recent bishops and many of its most senior and prominent priests. Hence it had few vocations, and fewer diocesan priests in the early 2000’s than ever before in its history. Surely, this year’s 9 ordinations show what a single steadfastly faithful and orthodox man can do in a diocese—if he happens to be its bishop.
And vice versa? Once a bishop has been in place sufficient time to establish his spiritual leadership of his diocese—that is, to begin to reign in any egregious holdovers from his predecessor—can his quality as bishop be measured reliably by the number of vocations he attracts? Does a paucity of vocations mean he’s not doing his job as bishop?
The current Archbishop of Dublin has been in office 10 years. And only 2 current priests under 40? Is there another explanation that ought to be considered?
Henry Edwards quoted “There are only 2 priests in Dublin under the age of 40”
Does anyone know where that figure came from?
On the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference website, the total number of priests in the Dublin diocese (not the archdiocese) is 269. The percentage of priests under 45 years of age in the country is 11.9%, which means that Dublin would have 32 priests under 45 unless its age distribution is radically different from the rest of the country.
HERE
There is only one seminary for diocesan priests in Ireland. The reasons for the lack of vocations are these: 1) bad, liberal priests; 2) contracepting Catholics; 3) socialism as the main political stance of most Catholics, even some trads; 4) people are not getting married; 5) revival of paganism; 6) few care as the Church is aging.
The Archbishop is not unusual in his views.
May I add that St. Francis de Sales was a bishop for 22 years or so and ordained 900 men? And this was in a generation after Calvin.
He [Pope Benedict] saw the practices as a remedy for the many ills the Irish had experienced, which suggests that the dropping of those practices in way contributed to the problem.
Perhaps Pope Benedict had read:
After Asceticism: Sex, Prayer and Dissident Priests
Linacre Institute
jhayes: the Archbishop himself said it. You’ll find it about half way down his speech (here)
http://www.dublindiocese.ie/content/living-joy-gospel
However, the numbers (2 under 40) are a useful pointer to the fact that something is very wrong indeed in the the Archdiocese (there is no “Diocese of Dublin” as such), since it contains most of the Greater Dublin Area and ergo a large percentage of the total population of the country, at least 30%. Res ipsa loquitur.
Reading through the speech itself again, I was struck by this quote: “Our young people have lost familiarity with the language of faith, despite years of Catholic education.” It’s the “despite years of Catholic education” that rings false to me, in its hand-washing. For one thing, the quality of such education has been a scandal since at least the later 1970s (Ireland is not alone here), and for another thing “Catholic education” can’t just be taken as confined to a couple of hours, if even that, per week of very often dubious quality education in the classroom. A most important part has to be that which children and young people hear in the homily at Mass, as well as what they observe in the general mode of the celebration of Mass and the Sacraments. Are there any hints here, your Grace?
And this whole “young people” thing is really getting well past its sell-by date anyway. Just how many are to be observed in any parish Mass these days? Is this surprising when the generation that comprises their parents i.e. those born in the sixties and seventies were themselves subjected to bad, if not deliberately subversive, catechesis? Please don’t let’s have any more hackneyed hand-washing by the generation that in fact bears a large part of the responsibility for all this. You’ve well and truly missed the bus in regard to young people, and the sad thing is: I think you know it.
I love the repeatedly used non-conventional abbreviation for association. Is this intentional? [I have no idea what you mean!]
jaykay, thanks for answering my question and for the link to the article.
Following some clicking about yesterday from the Latin Mass Society’s website I came across these talks by Michael Davies. It is the tenth anniversary of his death in just over a month’s time.
The three I’ve listened to so far are Vatican II, Modernism and Liturgy Divided which have been incredibly informative in regards to situations such as what has happened in Ireland. I’m incredibly grateful to God Almighty for raising up ones such as this man. What an incredibly well informed, orthodox teacher. May he rest in peace.
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