At The Blaze I saw a list of churches burned by the practitioners of the Religion of Peace.
Sts. Nunilo and Alodia, pray for us.
Alexandria
- Father Maximus Church
Arish
- St George Church | Burned | Source
Assiut
- Good Shepherds Monastery | Nuns attacked
- Angel Michael Church | Surrounded
- St George Coptic Orthodox Church | Photo, Photo, Photo, YouTube
- Al-Eslah Church| Burned | Source
- Adventist Church | Pastor and his wife kidnapped | Photo
- St Therese Church | Photo
- Apostles Church | Burning | Source
- Holy Revival Church | Burning | Source
- Qusiya Diocese | MCN
Beni Suef
- The Nuns School | Photo
- St George Church | al-Wasta
Cairo
- St Fatima Basilica | Heliopolis | Attempted Attack
- Virgin Mary’s Church | Hakim Village | Burned | Photo
Fayoum (Five churches)
- St Mary Church | El Nazlah | Gallery
- St Damiana Church | Robbed and burned
- Amir Tawadros (St Theodore) Church | EgyNews (Arabic), Twitter
- Evangelical Church | al-Zorby Village | Looting and destruction
- Church of Joseph | Burned | Source
- Franciscan School | Burned | Source
Gharbiya
- Diocese of St Paul | Burned | Source
Giza
- Father Antonios
- Atfeeh Bishopric
Minya (Around twelve churches)
- Church of the Virgin Mary and Father Abram | Delga, Deir Mawas | Source
- St Mina Church | Abu Hilal Kebly, Beni Hilal | Source, photo
- Baptist Church | Beni Mazar | Source
- Monastery | Deir Mawas | Ahram (Arabic)
- Delga Church | Attacked (Previously attacked with fire)
- The Jesuit Fathers Church | Abu Hilal district
- St Mark Church | Abu Hilal district
- St Joseph Nunnery | Photo, photo
- Amir Tadros Church | Photo, photo, photo, album, photo, photo
- Evangelical Church | Photo
- Anba Moussa al-Aswad Church | Photo
- Apostles Church | Source
Qena
- St Mary’s Church | Attempted Burning
Sohag
- St George Church |Photo album, photo, photo, video, source, source, video
- St Damiana | Attacked and burned | Source
- Virgin Mary | Attacked and burned | Source
- St Mark Church & Community Center
- Anba Abram Church | Destroyed and burned | Source
Suez
- St Saviours Anglican Church | Source
- Franciscan Church and School | Street 23 | Burned |Photo, photo, source/photos, photos
- Holy Shepherd Monastery and Hospital | Photo
- Good Shepherd Church (molotov cocktail thrown)- Relationship with Holy Shepherd Monastery unknown.
- Greek Orthodox Church | Photo, Photo
Christian Institutions
- House of Father Angelos (Pastor of Church of the Virgin Mary and Father Abram) | Delga, Minya | Burned | CBN News, Ahram (Arabic)
- Properties and Markets of Copts | al-Gomhorreya Street, Assiut
- Seventeen Coptic homes | Delga, Minya | Burned | Source, Source
- YMCA | Minya| Burned | Photo
- Coptic Homes | Qulta Street, Assiut | Attacked
- Offices of the Evangelical Foundation & Oum al-Nour | Minya
- Coptic-owned shops, pharmacy, and hotels | Karnak and Cleopatra Streets, Luxor | Attacked and Looted
- Dahabeya Nile Boat | Minya| Church-owned | Source,Photo, Photo
- Bible Society bookshop | Cairo | Burned | Photo
- Bible Society | Fayoum | Photo
- Bible Society | al-Gomohoreya Street, Assiut | Photo, Photo
- Ezbet el Nekhl | Source, source, source (Arabic)
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Prayers for these poor people. God, have mercy!
From NBC News:
Obama said during a break in his vacation on Martha’s Vineyard, Mass:
“We call on those who are protesting to do so peacefully and condemn the attacks that we’ve seen by protesters, including on churches.”
The support of the U.S. Government for the Muslim Brotherhood is appalling. This news story is by a Muslim photographer that was planning to photograph his cousin’s wedding. He was jumped by thugs from the Muslim Brotherhood when they saw him taking pictures of them defacing a Coptic church with spray paint. http://animalnewyork.com/2013/this-is-what-it-looks-like-just-before-the-muslim-brotherhood-jumps-you/
The article is entitled “This is What It Looks Like Just Before the Muslim Brotherhood Jumps You.” Wonder how long it’ll be before Sr. Joan from the Fishwrap goes back to Tahrir Square to lecture them…
Where’s King Richard of the Lion Heart when you need him???
And for those who think “it couldn’t EVER happen here”:
“An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,” by the Muslim Brotherhood operative Mohamed Akram. Federal investigators found Akram’s memo in the home of Ismael Elbarasse, a founder of the Dar Al-Hijrah mosque in Falls Church, Virginia, during a 2004 FBI search. Elbarasse was a member of the Palestine Committee, which the Muslim Brotherhood had created to support Hamas in the United States.
Written sometime in 1987 but not formally published until May 22, 1991, Akram’s 18-page document listed the Brotherhood’s 29 likeminded “organizations of our friends” that shared the common goal of dismantling American institutions and turning the U.S. into a Muslim nation. These “friends” were identified by Akram and the Brotherhood as groups that could help convince Muslims “that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands … so that … God’s religion [Islam] is made victorious over all other religions.”
Akram was well aware that in the U.S., it would be extremely difficult to promote Islam by means of terror attacks. Thus the “grand jihad” that he and his Brotherhood comrades envisioned was not a violent one involving bombings and shootings, but rather a stealth (or “soft”) jihad aiming to impose Islamic law (Sharia) over every region of the earth by incremental, non-confrontational means, such as working to “expand the observant Muslim base”; to “unif[y] and direc[t] Muslims’ efforts”; and to “present Islam as a civilization alternative.” At its heart, Akram’s document details a plan to conquer and Islamize the United States – not as an ultimate objective, but merely as a stepping stone toward the larger goal of one day creating “the global Islamic state.”
In line with this objective, Akram and the Brotherhood resolved to “settle” Islam and the Islamic movement within the United States, so that the Muslim religion could be “enabled within the souls, minds and the lives of the people of the country.” Akram explained that this could be accomplished “through the establishment of firmly-rooted organizations on whose bases civilization, structure and testimony are built.” He urged Muslim leaders to make “a shift from the collision mentality to the absorption mentality,” meaning that they should abandon any tactics involving defiance or confrontation, and seek instead to implant into the larger society a host of seemingly benign Islamic groups with ostensibly unobjectionable motives; once those groups had gained a measure of public acceptance, they would be in a position to more effectively promote societal transformation by the old Communist technique of “boring from within.”
“The heart and the core” of this strategy, said Akram, was contingent upon these groups’ ability to develop “a mastery of the art of ‘coalitions.’” That is, by working synergistically they could complement, augment, and amplify one another’s efforts. Added Akram: “The big challenge that is ahead of us is how to turn these seeds or ‘scattered’ elements into comprehensive, stable, ‘settled’ organizations that are connected with our Movement and which fly in our orbit and take orders from our guidance.” The ultimate objective was not only an enlarged Muslim presence, but also implementation of the Brotherhood objectives of transforming pluralistic societies, particularly America, into Islamic states, and sweeping away Western notions of legal equality, freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech.
Astronomer,
That report from the photographer was chilling, and the reports of the Islamic “strategy” to “take over” are equally so.
I just finished reading Robert Spencer’s “Not Peace, but the Sword” and probably the most distressing element of the book was the appendix. It contained a transcript of a “debate” between the author and Dr. Peter Kreeft. What was so disheartening was it seemed to me that Dr. Kreeft’s responses left me little hope of there being a path of peaceful co-existence, for as the story by the photographer that you linked above shows, once in power Muslims believe it to be a religious duty to subjugate all non-Muslims. Dr. Kreeft’s “rebuttal” provided fascinating anecdotes of his encounters with various Muslims, but no real refutation of Robert Spencer’s quite serious conclusions. Christians in this country are sadly by and large asleep and consequently very much run the risk of eventually having to deal with what our poor Egyptian brothers and sisters in Christ are dealing with. Of course, there is always the hope and goal of everyone coming to know Jesus as his or her Savior, but the interim does not look pretty if we keep burying our heads in the sand.
I just saw this list at another blog, but not a word from the MSM. Are we surprised by that? I am so astounded at the magnitude of the destruction that I can’t even put my thoughts into words. The only recourse for this poor world is prayer. Queen of Peace, pray for us!
I read that most of the churches being attacked are outside of major cities where security is low. Christian homes and business are also being attacked. A “day of rage” was declared in response to the political climate. I guess every “political protest” (acts of evil cowardice) should include attacking unarmed and unprotected religious groups in their places of worship and in their homes. A “day” of rage is laughable. You would expect such a group to just be able to say what it is: unending. How inept they must have felt, after so much effort, that there are that many churches to burn and so many Christians to murder.
Sts. Nunilo and Alodia, pray for us.
Awful.
Astronomer: Thanks for posting the Brotherhood information and thank you Father for posting the list. It always astounds me that people don’t understand that Islamic organizations like these have a goal – the destruction of America, with its rule of law, its freedom and its tolerance. I am continuously appalled by members of my local parish who seem to think that Islam is either “just another religion” or is filled with “people of the book – just like us and the Jews” (totally incorrect: Allah is not God). When I try to discuss Islam, its history, practices and culture with them, they don’t listen. I’m pretty sure it’s because once anyone starts looking – really looking – at what is taught in Islam, at the extent of its infiltration into our country (such as the various MSAs in all the universities and professional schools, all funded by outside Muslim organizations), the extent of this President’s support for the most radical and violent of the organizations (the Muslim Brotherhood – think Huma Abedin), they will become as concerned and yes, as frightened, as I am. And there was even an announcement in a recent parish Bulletin that Eid was coming up. My first thought was WTF!?! This is Islam, folks, do you think their Mosques have little announcements that Easter is coming? More people need to know what’s happening, to recognize the tendrils of Islamism everywhere and to fight it whenever it rears it foul head.
meanwhile we continue to pump 1.3 Billion dollars into Egypt and Obama goes on another vacation.
Essential information I’d be looking for. A few days ago, ABC covered a sliver of the news. Sometimes, it referred to “churches,” sometimes to “christians.” What led it to air its paltry story in the first place I do not know.
No, The Astronomer, it’s not going to happen here, on that scale, since we have rule of law and armed forces not the patsies of any given party, but what with abortion and HHS mandate, statism and fascism are already operating with more surgical precision within our borders than the Islamo-Fascists are within their own.
Imalwaysangry,
I share your sentiments.
I challenge anybody to come up with a comparable list of mosques that have been attacked by Christians.
Palladio,
In all sincerity, I am not so sure about the rule of law here. Since Roe vs Wade and the OJ decision (both cases that seem to me were not decided on law but were decided by “we want to see a certain outcome and will take this opportunity to do so”), I see more and more corruption of that rule until now, I feel it is more a situation that a citizen has just not been charged yet more than that a citizen being actually protected. Ranging from the IRS corruption, the NSA storing vast amounts of data on every citizen, right down to the rodeo clown “scandal” (which if his actions were reported correctly, I would find inappropriate, but I also found Gore’s comments years ago deriding “the extra chromosome crowd” vastly inappropriate and he was not subject to a DOJ investigation),situations such as do not make me feel “protected” by laws anymore but simply as “not caught yet” violating some minutiae of some politically correct edict. With rot such as this, Islamists have an opportunity even here. The Second Amendment is thankfully one bulwark against this; arming ourselves in prayer and supplication and fasting should be the other, and foundational, bulwark.
happyCatholic, if you could point to a parallel — recent, of course — here for what is happening to Christians in Egypt, I would see that you have a counterargument. I don’t doubt that the rule of law is subverted or degraded, but thus it has always been, today perhaps at even a faster than usual rate, but we have not seen such flagrant anti-Christian violence such as we see in Egypt in the U. S. (e. g., the KKK, founded by a Methodist minister) for a very long time. I cannot see it happening in my lifetime, but, as I said, legalized evil of all sorts will only grow in a statist and fascist state such as we are and are faster and faster becoming.
The Crusades never ended, we just stopped fighting. When Islamists claim that Temple Mount has always belonged to them, only those who know history can say they are wrong. Knowledge is power. We have abdicated to the media and education to those who either have limited knowledge or those with evil intent for far too long. I believe that we will see European churches being burned by Muslims who have become the fastest growing populations in many countries. It won’t take long. We will be overpowered by sheer numbers. Who said contraception had no consequences?
If this is what happens when Muslims self rule, well, we as a country have not been spending our time wisely over the last 10 years.
Palladio,
Thanks for the thoughtfulness of your reply; you make a valid point that currently we are not seeing systemically here what is going on in Egypt, nor the overt anti-Christian historical violence you reference in this country. Furthermore, I have no expertise in this area — only ideas from what I have observed from living for half a century. ;-)
However, as I think back over the past several decades, I remember the unjust jailing of pro-life protestors and the beatings some of them endured at the hands of rogue law enforcement. I think of the judicial intimidation of Christians, from “bubble zones” around abortion clinics to valedictorians not being “allowed(!)” to mention the name of Jesus, to the HHS mandate (which you already referenced). From this I see that those Christians (pro-lifers especially) who have confronted the anti-Christian culture here have been met with some force. Are they the canaries in the coal mine? Has the violence been less in general because many Christians seem to be apathetic, so that no response from the state was necessary? Heck, some fellow Catholics are even doing the dirty work, eg some Supreme Court justices, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, etc, in their support for legal restrictions on the Church. When the Church responds with a firmer voice, what will be the result? I am so grateful for our religious liberty and Constitution, but the attacks on them are multiplying rapidly, including calls for sharia law to be applied instead of the duly passed laws already on the books., eg the “honor killing” of some young women in this country.
So, I take heart a bit in your reminder that violence has been worse here in the past, particularly towards Catholics. Yet, I fear that apathy and ignorance leave Christians here very vulnerable to a determined secular and Islamist affront.
And the US government is funding this. Appalling. Foreign aid needs to end NOW. Enough with the intervention; nothing good ever comes of it.
The church used to send armies to fight these infidels, now she wishes them a happy ramadan. The poison of ecumenism. When are we going to figure out that this is our sworn enemy? Pray the rosary so we can overcome like in Lepanto.
thanks, happyCatholic, very much. I fear the state and what is now at least in words and in law a very ignorant and aggressive secularism, the new state ideology. I do not fear that we are vulnerable to Islamo-Fascists except in the ways already, for the most part, thwarted by our police state statist government; within the U. S., Muslims are as numerous at 2 percent as homosexuals–a micro-minority–and most of them here are not or don’t seem to be radicalized, even if they are perhaps silent about their Muslim brothers’ crimes abroad. I fear, again, the state and its statist ideologues, from the lapsed Mainline to Unitarians and New Agers, from various and sundry vegans to in your face gay activists, from angry lock-step undergraduates (second-generation latch-key kids, narcissists every one of them), who think abortion is normal and necessary, to the shameless illiberal judiciary, which may be legion. These and others like them conspire in the culture of death which is no culture. If we don’t know who our enemies are, how can we pray for and love them? If we make enemies where none exist, we are being extremely imprudent.
Domine, exaudi orationem meam…
Et clamor meus ad te veniat.
Poustinik1 says:
meanwhile we continue to pump 1.3 Billion dollars into Egypt and Obama goes on another vacation.
That money has bought peace between Egypt and our 51st state.
The press has been so concerned about the Muslim Brotherhood being evicted from power that they look the other way when Islamic violence spreads through the country – much the same way as in Syria, Iraq and many of the African countries that have minority Christian religions.
Glad to see that Obama even noticed what is going on in Egypt and he wants to support Islamic militants in Syria? (Of course, they say they aren’t militants – what do you expect?)
BTW, anyone checked the Gates of Vienna lately?
I have had for years two concerns. One, that there are not enough Catholic men who are protectors who would fight a crusade which is a reality and not to be ignored.
Two, why there are so many pacifist Catholics, when this is not the mainstream teaching of the Church regarding just wars.
I believe there are many protector men who are priests, like Fr. Z., but there are few men who would actually help people in a global war against either Muslims or Marxists. Sad.
Meanwhile in the US…
Bishop Robert Lynch of St. Petersburg condemns pro-lifers and equals abortion to issues like immigration and food aid, sides with the goverment in the HHS mandate, and pushes a liberal agenda.
God have mercy on us all!
Hi, supertradmum, I would disagree with the statement “but there are few men who would actually help people in a global war against either Muslims or Marxists.” My son is one such, but then those in uniform whom I now know thanks to his patriotism are many. They follow orders, however. They are willing to die under orders. Retired warriors, I have learned, don’t speak up or out in time of war. They enlist. If they are too old or infirm, they are rejected and support the effort by volunteering in other ways. I was talked out of Navy ROTC by a Vietnam Vet. Otherwise, the men in my family have served in every major conflict except for WW I going back to 1776. Without my son’s patriotism, I would never know about the self-less brave men and women prepared to lay down their lives TODAY to fight evil. Which is odd given family history, but not so given the abjectly awful non-coverage the media, too busy making cheap and easy dollars off of New Jersey reality and English royalty, give to our armed forces. Evil is the term they and their commanders use. The military that I know is not militarist. Evil is what they believe they fight. Evil is what they want to fight. I have heard them say so over and again. I believe them and I thank them, because there is such evil in the world, as every Catholic knows. May God bless them all.
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@robotbrown That is so true.
I can now understand how the whole Holocaust situation came to be in Europe without the US doing anything about. It’s happening over in the Middle East now, only the victims are Christians, and we hear nothing about it.
Great and Holy New Martyrs of Egypt pray for us!
Christians in this country are sadly by and large asleep.
I do not deny it. However I believe the point is: even if we were irreproachably awake, what precisely could and should we do against the spread of Islam? That is the point. The rest would be arousing bad consciences, and for anything less than a concrete breach of a precisely defined duty, this is never a good thing.
As a (rather long) aside, may I perhaps help this good cause by pointing to some arguments brought forward in its favor which, I believe, happen to be technically wrong. In this spirit,
dear @Imalwaysangry,
I am continously appalled by members of my local parish who seem to think that Islam is either “just another religion”
It is. Of course we can take for granted that all other religious are wrong, can’t we? But under this Catholic principle, yes, Islam is just another religion which, like all other religions, is wrong, and like all religions including the true one, strives to make the state enshrine its values as binding on all citizens* and push them through with force.
*The idea that “we all are of the same culture and share the same values, and after that we decide each for his own self what to believe in addition to it”, ideological pluralism, is indeed very widespread in the Western world. Nevertheless it is a false one, and has been explicitly condemned by the Church in the 19th century. Only on a suchlike-basis you can get the idea that “Islam is not a religion but a political system”. Of course it is both; as is Mormonism, or American conservative Protestantism. Or Catholicism: the Church does leave the merely political questions to the secular rulers, but only after deciding which they are (and in addition, I have yet to find an interesting merely political question which remained such on close investigation.) The simple deciding thing is that Catholicism is right.
[Islam] is filled with “people of the book – just like us and the Jews” (totally incorrect: Allah is not God).
That is indeed incorrect. First, “people of the book” is an Islamic expression; as such, it means us and the Jews but pathetically not Mohammedans. On the other hand, it really is the Mohammedans who take a book as the precise thing that defines their religion, not us (though with some Protestants you are not so sure; but still we Christians are defined by a living person, Our Lord).
Second, it may be possible to bring us with the Mohammedans and the Jews under some sort of category. It is a faulty deduction, however, to say that this has any meaning for our actual affairs with them.
Nevertheless: yes, Mohammedans do worship the Supreme Being who created Heaven and Earth. The worship him in a wrong way by believing the beliefs of (or attributed to) Mohammed (among them denial of the Trinity) and following the inventions of (or attributed to) Mohammed (among them oppressing those who do not err the same way as them), but for all that, it is still God they believe these errors about and do these mistaken services for.
For which reason I do not like to see it that “Allah is not God” is made the shibboleth of anti-appeasement. Because anti-appeasement is a good cause, but still… the sentence “Allah is not God” just happens to be false. We might say: “Allah is God, but it does not matter”.
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Muslims see Allah as all-powerful but not as all-good. For example, Muslims believe that Allah could lie if he wanted to. Christians believe the opposite: that for God to lie would be contrary to His essence.
So, the Allah of the Muslim faith is not the God of Chistians or Jews.
Remember also that the word ‘Islam’ means ‘submission’ which is the relationship of Muslims to Allah. Christians strive for a relationship of love with their God (which includes humility, submission of will, etc. but these flow from love).
Quoniam omnes dii gentium dæmonia.
Muslims see Allah as […] Christians believe the opposite: […] So,
So, Mohammedans have a heretical and apostatical misconception about the One God, and that’s that.
If denial of the very Trinity could not make Arius a believer in a different God (and everyone does say that Arius believed in God), then an exaggeriation of omnipotence to the point of making “all-goodness” a mere phrase (which if I am rightly informed they do retain as a phrase) will not either.
Remember also that the word ‘Islam’ means ‘submission’ which is the relationship of Muslims to Allah. Christians strive for a relationship of love with their God.
So, Islam and Christianity are different. But we knew that already, didn’t we?
[Note: In this, the Muslims are – for a change – not technically wrong, though they are “not right enough” in a manner of speaking. Submission to God, even mere submission, is a good thing; after all, it is what is behind servile fear and the Church does teach that that is a good thing.]
My point is: I’d wish to discuss the real problems with Islam and not make a vital argument of “Allah is not God” which is incorrect. All the more because it has always been a misconception in its own right that worshippers of the same God are friends. It is worshippers of different gods that are friendly to each other; it is disagreeing worshippers of the same God that go into bloody fighting, as the Thirty Years War proved.
Supertradmum, only the Pope can authorize a crusade, and I can’t see the present Pontiff calling for “swords about the cross”.
““Allah is not God” which is incorrect.” But why is it incorrect, please? Just asking.
From what I know, we suppose we know what Islam is from the outside, taking Islam at its word. Yet, part of its word entails explicitly rejecting Christ as God. Similarly, the ‘Christians’ who think of Christ as just a great guy, are not worshipping God as true Christians do.
I wonder how much wishful thinking is involved in imagining Muslims worshipping our God, Who is love, how much sentimentality. They have taken Christ — the Son — out of God, but you claim they worship the same god. I still can’t see that.
@tonyfernandez
The US aid money goes to the Egyptian government, which is NOT the Muslim Brotherhood. The Egyptian government promised yesterday to rebuild the destroyed churches.
So look for Obama to grant your wish and stop aid, because he wants the Muslim Brotherhood to win.
P. S. Can’t be “heretical and apostatical” unless Catholic in the first place. All the more reason to think that Islam does not worship God of Whom it has no proper conception, only misconception. Were Romans worshipping God when they adored Jupiter because they thought he was “father of Gods and of men?” I think I’ll believe Islam worships God when somebody proves Mohammed wrote the Gospel of John.
In Exodus 6 2-3, God tells Moses
Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Since the time when God made Himself known to them as El-Shaddai, we have further revelations of Him. We differ in which of those further revelations we accept as true, but our differing beliefs to all trace back to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and we do all worship that God
Dear @Palladio,
I can assure you that there is no wishful thinking on my side in this question, however much there may be from somewhom else.
There is only the sort of thinking that a) what the Mohammedans may have in store for us and b) whether the sort of worship and the sort of religion is in strict theory to be called i) a false worship of the true God or ii) a true worship of a false god, that these are simply entirely separate questions.
Note that I presented my opinion, which is: i), as an opinion. There may be grounds for the other one. I do say, though, that I have not yet seen them presented in these comments. There was a lot of talk about why Islam is bad. But badness is not un-Christian.
(Any belief is either the Catholic one, or heretical. Some heretical beliefs are what I called apostatical, in that they constitute a different religion and would make an apostate out of a Christian – as embracing Protestantism generally does not. In this sense I talked about heretical and apostatical. It is by the way a matter of dispute whether Islam is a different religion from Christianity at all, and not just a, need I say it: very wrong, heresy. Though I do opine here that it is a religion.)
Counter-question: I believe in the God who assumed Holy Mary into Heaven with body and soul. Protestants generally don’t. If you say that, therefore, they do not worship God, because they deny to Him what is undoubtedly His property, to wit: having assumed Holy Mary into Heaven with body and soul, then yes, of course, in this sense Islam would worship a different God.
As for the Romans, let me evade my argument to the Greeks. It seems that St. Paul says that they worshipped God when they had raised an altar “to the unknown God”.
But badness is not un-Christian.
is supposed to mean: is not what makes a religion cease to worship God (or be Christian). I said un-Christian because I thought of the heresies as proving examples. They are obviously bad, but they are even Christian, much more do they worship God.
Now Islam is not Christian*; still, the mere fact that it is bad (in not being Christian) has no connection to the “whom do they worship” question.
[*It is, for what it’s worth, even a matter of dispute whether Islam is a religion of its own after all – and not just a grand Christian heresy. I happen to think here that yes, it is a religion of its own; but that, also, not just because it is so horrible, but on other grounds (and on intuitions) for which there is no place here.]
Seems I have been repeating myself in the “asides”. Sorry!
Thanks, Imrahil. Yes, of course, we are exchanging opinions. I was writing in a general vein, too, even if your posts were those that got me thinking. Interesting point about Protestants. They are constantly on the verge of worshipping not God but some sentimental (or vengeful) notion in the sky, since they have cut themselves off from the Church of God and fragmented, from the very start in fact, into many, many pieces. Who really knows? There are so many sects! Consider, though, by the “sense” you’ve just granted that Islam is infinitely at a further remove than historic Protestants are from the Church of Christ, and in their very (mis)conception of God.
I strongly suggest all Catholics read Rémi Brague on this question: he reads all the languages in question, is smart as smart comes, and writes like an angel. God bless you, Imrahil.
“I cannot see it happening in my lifetime”
A Judge in Oklahoma blocked the enactment of a law banning sharia in Oklahoma on the grounds that it was ‘contrary to the freedom of religion’, after one muslim in Oklahoma complained. The Judge, unsurprisingly, went to school in Ghana, and was a Clinton nominee. We are not far. This case is going to head up to the supreme court, whether a state can or cannot bar the practice of sharia.
As for condemning the Catholic men, it is not up to us whether we have children or not. It’s up to the Catholic ladies to express their desire for children with men rather than pushing for Contraception, supporting gun control, etc. The men have already made their decision – what’s killing us are the women. Women are so divided that they tend to support folks like Obama. Had Catholic women voted as the men do – Obama would not be elected. I also know plenty of single Catholic men who have considerable difficulties finding a suitable Catholic lady who’s interested in them, faithful to the magisterium and young enough to have a family.
Interesting case, Ben, and may the force be with you. However, the legal question may be a question of the freedom to practice religion. If Sharia law is essential to the practice of Islam, well, the logic is clear. Canon Law is essential to the practice of Catholicism: by It many matters are conducted in the Church. The Constitution protects this. Whether a given court will find against somebody who runs afoul of secular law, the ‘law of the land,’ is another question. Parents who, for religious belief, refuse medical treatment for their children, have been sued and found guilty after the children died. Remember, Islam is 2 percent of the U. S. The vast majority are not Islamo-Fascists. If we cannot find a way to live peaceably with these folks, shame on us.
Dear @Palladio, thank you, and God bless you too!
“However, the legal question may be a question of the freedom to practice religion. If Sharia law is essential to the practice of Islam”
Sharia law teaches that those who convert from Islam are subject to the death penalty. This is contrary to the constitution of the United States. It also permits multiple wives, which is also contrary to the laws in the United States. It also permits things like we see here happening in Egypt.
Sharia law is not compatible with the constitution of the united states and thus, should be banned. If Islam cannot be practiced as a faith without Sharia, than those who are muslim must leave the United States to settle in a country that does practice sharia.
“If we cannot find a way to live peaceably with these folks, shame on us.”
Shame on America that more died on 9-11 at the hands of Islamic terrorism than at Pearl Harbor? Then you have Tsarnaev just this year in Boston. Nidal Hasan in Fort Hood, Texas. You state ‘only two percent are muslim’, and yet we’ve had 3 terrorist attacks in recent times all from Islamic terrorists. Shame on us? Shame on them for abusing the hospitality of America. This is America – Muslims need to live in peace with US.
I see what you mean, Ben, but Canon Law is not compatible with the Constitution. Could you sue a Bishop in a U. S. court of law for not giving a priest (say, removed from a parish by that Bishop) due process, whereas due process is guaranteed by the Constitution and protection and remedy is constantly sought, in the private sector, under due process?
Islamo-Fascist terrorism, Ben. More Americans die at the hands of Americans (often, terrorist Americans) than any other comparable cause, including Islamo-Fascism; you left out all our lovely serial and mass murders, such as on school playgrounds and classrooms, and our obsession with military-grade weaponry in the home. This is America: Americans have to live in peace with Americans. I am Catholic: I have to love and pray for my enemy, but first I have to identify him, Catholic, Muslim, American or not. About that I should make no mistake, ever. Have a nice evening, Ben. God bless.
And here comes “The Million Muslim March” on 9/11, just to rub it in our face and throw in some salt.
America will do exactly nothing about the threat of Islam. We are the same nation that has stood by silenced by political correctness and fear as homo-fascism has taken over our country and now infects it like the disease it is. Too late.
I wish there were a way to invite Coptic christians to America for political asylum. It is terrible to know they are suffering right now. We are helpless except for prayer.
But as Andrew pointed out, with those strong words from our president, I’m sure the killers will stop rampaging any moment now. Day of Rage, indeed.
To: Ben Kenobi says:
17 August 2013 at 7:09 pm
“It’s up to the Catholic ladies to express their desire for children with men rather than pushing for Contraception, supporting gun control, etc. The men have already made their decision – what’s killing us are the women. Women are so divided that they tend to support folks like Obama.” — My sister and I are teaching our nieces/daughters that we have to be 100 feminist, that is, following Mama Mary’s footstep 100%. The goal of every woman in the family is to raise men of faith, courage, strength, integrity and dignity to stand and fight for us and for God, for country and for family.
God bless,
Maria
Hi Everyone: I’ve been out and away from the computer all day, working, running errands, spending time with my family. But now I have a moment to respond to everyone, especially to Imrahil. Islam, like other religions, can only be judged by its fruits, by what its adherents have done and accomplished. Because I live in a liberal urban area I have a lot of contact with Muslims, probably more than most people. In general, I’ve no problems with individual Muslims – what concerns and, to a great extent, appalls me, is that when I discuss with them their beliefs and their goals. all of them, each and every one of them that I have ever discussed it with, believes that Islam MUST rule the world, that sharia law is far superior to our system of laws and our traditions of self-government and individual freedom, and that their first loyalty it to the ummah, not to the country which has given them either asylum or citizenship or educational opportunity or whatever. And then I look at the conditions in the countries they came from: the poverty, the lack of freedom, the hatred of homosexuals and the denigration of women, and, frankly, the EVIL that pervades places like Libya, Iran, and Somalia and I can only echo the Bible: “by their fruit ye shall know them.” I pray always that the persons who are slaves of Allah will be saved.
Our President is on Vaction in Martha’s Vineyard playing golf and canceling joint military training with Egypt and hoping for reconciliation with the Muslem Brotherhood, our Holy Father is praying for peace in Egypt meanwhile Putin who appears to be the new defender of Christianity is sending troops in because he is torked about Christians getting masaquered. If I were a Christian in Egypt I would burn the American Flag, give a cordial thanks to the Holy Father and run up and hug the first Russian Soldier I saw. Man is this world upside down.
Imalwaysangry,
That’s the general Moslem attitude–their way is superior. I think they should be asked why all their nations are inferior to those in the West. Except for Indonesia the only prosperous Moslem nations are those that sell oil to the US.
And all the Moslem nations know that Israel could very quickly reduce them to ashes.
Sts. Nunilo and Alodia, pray for us
It is ironic that Putin is more on the right side of this than the USA. Of course Putin is not a Muslim like little Barry is. Obama is clearly on the Muslim Brotherhood’s side and any statement from him decrying violence is just another of his many lies. If we had a Congress that served the common good rather than its own selfish interests they would have impeached Obama long ago. What he is being allowed to get away with on multiple fronts is both unconstitutional and criminal.
Amen Exchief, by the way it sounds like the uniform may be hanging in the closet but the spirit is very much alive.
I have a book which I love reading. It is called “The Last Crusade” by Warren Carroll.
He got his title wrong didn’t he?!!!
His book is about the Spanish Civil War which is an account of the hatred and suppression of the Church by the Communists in Spain.
The Communists have now been replaced by the Islamists.
The devil will make use of whatever ideology is at hand in attacking the Church.
Nothing has really changed!
@Scarltherr: Why do we care about the Temple Mount? The curtain on the Holy of Holies was torn when Christ expired on the Cross.
I also know plenty of single Catholic men who have considerable difficulties finding a suitable Catholic lady who’s interested in them, faithful to the magisterium and young enough to have a family.
I’m so sorry, but it’s way too late for this blame game to begin, and it just divides us further.
I’m sorry your friends can’t find suitable young Catholic women, but back when I was able to have children, guess what? I couldn’t find a suitable Catholic man who was interested in me, faithful to the magisterium and willing to have children with me.
I can’t have children any more, but I don’t waste my time blaming God or anyone else for this. It clearly wasn’t His Will for me. It may not be His Will for your friends either.
What may be His Will for them is to dedicate their lives to helping Him in the Church’s hour of crisis in whatever way they can, whether it’s in action or in prayer or both. Above all, they may have to accept the God-given grace of a single life that makes it possible for them to do this in a fully self-sacrificing way.
Remember that Jesus told us that the day would come when things were so bad in the world that the childless would be envied. That may be right now. In which case, the childless and single will have to get busy helping the married and young families through this crisis time, with our courageous witness.
@Imrahil: Apologies. I read another of your comments and see that I misunderstood and that you believe that Islam is a separate religion. I disagree, though it does now appear to be a completely separate thing that exists independently from the Catholic Church that is not how it started life. Islam was born during the heyday of anti-Trinitarian heresies in late antiquity and this is the ferment that produced it. So much of the Qur’an seems to be dedicated to showing in one way or another that Jesus was not the Son of God and could not have possibly been the Son of God. If you ever are in Jerusalem I would recommend a visit to the Dome of the Rock: the oldest still standing Islamic building in the world. Inscribed on the interior ring of the dome in big Arabic letters 800 feet long is this Qur’anic verse: “Believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not “Three”; desist it will be better for you. For Allah is the only God. Far be it from his glory that he should have a son. (Qur’an 4:171)” Islam was an assault on the Trinity from the beginning, and it still is today.
Palladio, I was not referring to the army or other armed forces. I was thinking of protectors in homes, in families, and if you lived in European areas with Muslims, you would see the need now. Americans are oblivious to the fact that most Muslims want the global world domination of Islam. And, the typical Muslim man’s attitude towards women expresses itself against Western women daily in small as well as horrific large ways.
When will Americans wake up? When will Catholic American and European men realize that it is their duty to protect those who cannot protect themselves?
Dear @Imalwaysangry,
I find it curious that you mean your last comment as a response to me, given that I never disputed nor intended to dispute anything you said there. What I thought I was doing was aiding your position by pointing to a little part of your presentation of it which in my view is wrong and at any rate is disputed, and hence does not serve to make it stronger.
Yes, I am one of the hopeless guys who think theory matters.
As for the looking at the fruits, frankly, we know before looking at the fruits that they are wrong. I do not think that looking at the fruits serves to answer the question which distinguishes a false worship of the true God from idolatry… Noone accuses Protestantism of idolatry, yet there are enough bad fruits on its record.
Dear @Philippa Martyr,
I find it highly respectable and meritful that you don’t waste my time blaming God or anyone else for this. Nevertheless, for us weaker guys, it remains also legitimate to lament what we are not yet been given and would like to have.
backtothefuture writes,
you read my mind. totally agree. This is no religion of peace.
Maria: The goal of every woman in the family is to raise men of faith, courage, strength, integrity and dignity
I bought my son a book called “The Young Man of Character” by Bishop Toth – he’s slowly working his way through it, slowly being the operative word! I highly recommend it – it’s a great book available from Angelus Press and Amazon for the Kindle edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Young-Man-Character-ebook/dp/B00B53INUA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376824490&sr=1-1&keywords=Young+Man+of+character
isn’t it time we granted the Christians of the ME asylum the way we do the Cubans?
Isn’t it time for another crusade and be done w/ this religion of ‘peace’ once and for all?Sorry,but i do believe we had the right to defend ourselves.
Dear @Philippa Martyr,
I find it highly respectable and meritful that you don’t waste my time blaming God or anyone else for this. Nevertheless, for us weaker guys, it remains also legitimate to lament what we are not yet been given and would like to have.
You think I didn’t lament? Man, I could have given lessons in it. You think I’m not weak? I could give lessons in that, too.
It may be ‘legitimate’ to whine about not being given what we want, but is it Christian? Does it show a real trust in Jesus, along Divine Mercy lines? Does it mark you out as the kind of cheerful giver we are told God loves?
Not really.
What sorted me out was a book by an evangelical Protestant lady – Nancy Leigh DeMoss – who writes a lot about singleness as a gift from God. I, of course, was far too superior and Catholic to take this seriously, until I read a few of her books.
While her theology of salvation is way off course, her faith in God is as pure as driven snow, and her take on the single life is extremely helpful. She is also completely honest about the lie that is contraception, which has won her the ire of many evangelical women.
Being single is hard. But it’s also what God has chosen for those of us who are single right now. It would be a better example if we were more accepting of this and more joyful about it, rather than bemoaning our lack of access to conjugal rights (and let’s be honest, that’s what most single people really mean when they talk about the sufferings of their life.)
And also that way we are free to fight the Muslim menace as dangerous free agents. Look on the bright side!
Hi, Supertradmum. I still don’t know what you mean, re protectors in the home. At the same time, I have often lived in Europe near Muslims, especially in France. Again, I don’t know what you mean. If there are some Islamo-Fascists among them, I don’t know them on sight. If “most” Muslims are going to take over the world, the 2% in the U. S. are doing a poor job of it. In France, where the veil is banned by law, there is or was exactly one minister of Arab extraction and I am not sure she was Muslim. Europe today is lousy at integration, obviously, unlike America. It harbors racist views that have not been tested in practice until recently, whereas America fought the bloodiest war in history almost 150 years ago in part to divorce itself from its evil practice of enslaving blacks. France is a poor country relative to its potential and has been in a protracted economic crisis, made worse by the Great Recession of 2008, for decades. There’s unrest in the suburbs north of Paris. But the small but violent uprisings of Arab or Muslim youth are quickly put down there, by the police. France just routed Islamo-Fascists in Africa, you may recall. Americans are doing that elsewhere. I fail to see the problem as coming from our side, men or women, re Islamo-Fascists. In the immortal words of Dean Wormer, “Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to? go through life, son.” I acknowledge that as now an American problem for too many of our sons and liberated daughters, but since the military could accept only 20 percent of them–that is, that is the percentage of flat-footed no-account Americans even able to try to get into the military is 20 percent!!!!–I think the blame falls squarely on the moms and the dads. Those mean and women able enough to protect us from real as opposed to imagined threats are doing a fabulous job, though I exclude from that praise our national executive and assorted upper-level spooks who failed to act to prevent the second Boston Massacre last spring.
Dear @Pamela Martyr,
It may be ‘legitimate’ to whine about not being given what we want, but is it Christian?
Anything legitimate is Christian.
Is it the less good of two allowed actions – to whine or not to whine? Yes, I guess it seems so in most cases that would come to our mind. But in case it is no sin to whine, it is not un-Christian. We are the Catholics, who devote our entire life and nature, with joy and sorrow, (real) fasting and (real) feasting, and all that to God. We are not Protestants who, at least in the Prussian culture they bred, have to suppress that part of our self. We are Aristotelians or Platonists (not now debating which), but not Stoics; we have to learn to suffer, but we are allowed the mourning. Job was ready and willing to accept the evil God sent (Job 2,10), but did not find it incompatible with this to curse the day he was born, and so on. Our Lord himself certainly did trust His Father’s mercy and wisdom, but He did not find it incompatible with that to mourn, whether the death of Lazarus or, or at least so it seems, His own pains.
“God loveth a cheerful giver” is not for what I know a commandment, but says precisely that God loveth a cheerful giver… Indeed in the context this verse justified why St. Paul did not demand the money in obedience but merely requested it. God loveth a cheerful giver; and it is more easy to be one if you do not have to.
(And then I sometimes think that because obviously our entire nature, sorrow nonetheless, is apt to be given to God, it may be sort of a gift to God to give him in humble and sort-of cheerful acceptance one’s nature’s sorrow which one is not now able or willing to suppress.)
Note that I argument from the position that “better–less good” and “allowed–sinful” are two different distinctions. This looks highly theoretical, but has highly practical consequences; it is well defensible and is the Catholic position – in practice certainly, in theory I wouldn’t now know where to look that up, but it could be found somewhere. Protestants positively deny that there is any difference, in which case of course a ban on whining follows logically.
I didn’t, honestly, think about whether you lamented or not. I only saw that you disapproved of lamenting, and disagreed.
It is doubtful that if the situation were reversed–any Muslim or liberal would have been asked to quiet down so that Christians could pray.
In fact, the Christians would have been told that they did not have a permit and would have been dispersed. I think Egypt is showing us what the Muslim Brotherhood is about and we ignore it at our own peril. The fox is in the henhouse.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/08/police-tell-conservative-rally-to-quiet-down-so-muslim-brotherhood-protesters-can-pray-video/#disqus_thread
” If “most” Muslims are going to take over the world, the 2% in the U. S. are doing a poor job of it. ”
makes it sound like a benign small group of people. I’m not going to criticize you because your intentions are good and this may be based on your own experience.However, i see too much evidence to the contrary. Besides how many terrorists does it actually take to bring down a whole country?
Agree with everyone that Obama is on the side-and has been-of the Muslim Brotherhood.Even the Egyptians see it that way. While Morsi was in power he sent over aide.Now we have people-unfortunately too many Republicans-calling for the aide to be cut off. We should have done that with Morsi.This is the wrong time NOT to back their military. I hear cries to give the MB the boot out of Egypt once and for all. I also know our Our Holy Father(including Benedict and John Paul)are men of peace and wanted to have a dialogue of mutual respect with Muslim leaders but there comes a point when you realize these are NOT people you can talk to.
Pray for them.Definitely Defend ourselves against them.Definitely.
Muslim population has been ever increasing through birth rate as well as high rate of conversions. Islam is fastest growing religion and consequently this religion has become now the largest followers on this planet. At this moment Muslim population stands at 2.04 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.6 to 1.7 billion whereas Christian Population is 1.99 billion [religiouspopulation.com]. According to some sources Muslim populations in India, China, Nigeria, Tanzania, Ethiopia and in some other countries are displayed less than the actual population they have. In many parts like Europe[Cambridge University], North America[CNN], Christian’s are getting away from their religious belief, On the contrary among the Muslim Population the faith to their religion is ever increasing [CNN]. Consequently the present so called higher no of Christian population as stated in different sources, practically do not have any significance. It is expected that if present rate of increase of Muslim population continues that by 2030 One out of Three person will be Muslim. . http://www.muslimpopulation.com/index.html
Skay hits the nail on the head.
Palladio, many younger women and myself, have been rudely treated in London and Dublin in Muslim areas. Examples, Muslim youth gangs purposefully walking in a line almost up to one’s face and not moving over, expecting the woman to move over, even in the London underground, where this is dangerous. Men on sidewalks in certain areas of London when it is raining, literally not moving as one approaches so that a woman has to step into a puddle in the street. Some make rude comments as one walks by, in English, to these women, even older women. And, all modest, Christian women.
I know women who will now not go into certain shops, such as green grocers in mixed area, as the Muslim men do the shopping and not the women and the Christian women are the only women there and have to wait while men butt in front of them and get served first, having to wait until the proprietor decides to notice them. All the language spoken in these situations is Urdu or Farsi, or some other language.
These may seem small to you, but so many of us are single women without protectors and these Islamic men take advantage of that for rude and even threatening behaviour. I myself have witnessed all of the above, within one year in London and in Dublin. That women are single is not their fault and that one must shop and walk in certain areas in which one lives is also not one’s fault. This will only get worse.
It does not seem small to me, but I would advise, supertradmum, not going to such places. I still fail to see what it has specifically or exclusively with Muslims, which is the subject of the horrible news Fr. Z shared with us. If you were Asian and in Paris alone–as one professor friend of mine often is while doing research–you would be treated like a prostitute–by French men.
And then this — they came for the nuns. Not just buildings, but the people themselves are targets — in this the Christian employees and the Catholic nuns at a school — are humiliated and in danger. A Muslim woman does step in to help:
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2508/egypt_nuns_marched_through_the_streets_like_prisoners_of_war.aspx#.UhGVSD94ina
Yeah, several unarmed nuns and two Christian women who simply educate Muslim and Christian children are real threats, aren’t they. What cowards their persecutors are.
RJ Highland
Actually as an old warhorse I still do wear the uniform and perform the duties as a reserve. There are a lot of my generation, Supertradmom, who would/will fight if need be. We have little to loose but we know how much our children and grandchildren will suffer if this plague is not eradicated. Old we may be, but our aim is still good. Besides there is an old but true saying: don’t mess with an old guy. He didn’t get old by being slow, stupid, or timid. Experience, which too many today lack, does count and many of us have it though earned the hard way.
It is a big world, with many unexpected things in it. Muslims protecting Christians at Mass, and vice versa. Who’d a thunk it? Read:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353330/Egypt-protests-Christians-join-hands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html
Not to make light of a horrific situation, but I couldn’t help but notice that one of the churches that was named after the Prince of the Heavenly Host, which appears to be a Coptic Orthodox Cathedral was merely listed as “surrounded.” In the words of the man who cleaned up Westmoreland’s mess in Vietnam, an old WWII tanker (Creighton W. Abrams, Jr., namesake of the M1 Tank): St. Michael (reporting the situation to the Holy Trinity) “They’ve got us surrounded again, the poor bastards.”