![o{]:¬)](http://www.wdtprs.com/blog/wp-images/topimage.JPG)
OMVs cancel a TLM in California
I got this by e-mail:
Hello, Father,
I got your blogsite from members at MusicaSacra, and they suggested I contact you. I had not known of your page, but enjoyed perusing it this morning.
At Saint Peter Chanel in Hawaiian Gardens, CA, USA, we had been having a Tridentine low Mass for a few months (since November, I believe).
Yesterday, the Pastor came out (before the recessional) and announced that the head of his order—The Oblates of the Virgin Mary—had ordered his priests to stop saying the indult Mass because it was an "apostolate" that the OMV does not embrace. He also said that the 170 person average Sunday attendance was insufficient to justify the Mass (in spite of the fact that we had only a Low Mass and had been relegated to the old Church—kneeling on a concrete floor—and were not interfering with N.O. masses). Daily Mass goers would certainly be shocked and disappointed to find that daily Masses were cancelled due to less than 200 person attendance, and I have never been to a Tridentine Mass in LA or OC with anywhere near 200 people, so I thought we were doing well. He also said that the Mass had been conducted on an "experimental basis," but I hadn’t heard that the Pope called for a conditional experiment. We have a stable group, and the MP doesn’t specify a minimum number.
There were openly expressed protests to the decision as the pastor announced it, but he was obstinant and adamant. I plan to disenroll from the parish and go about twice as far to a TM in Huntington Beach, which I hear started up again. I’m hurt and distraught, and it seems the OMV (allegedly) is openly defying the Pope’s expressed wishes.
Can you suggest any actions (in addition to prayer, which we’re already trying) to have the situation reversed again, and permanently this time? I’m afraid the parish has lost the trust of some of their most faithful parishoners, and only with difficulty might regain it. I had even joined the fledgling choir, and we spent much time, energy, and money to get the musical resources we needed for the High Mass we were told by another priest was being planned. I became invigorated spiritually by even this Low TM as I hadn’t been in over a decade, and this cancellation has really devastated me. What can we do?
Other than making this known to the many people who read this blog, I cannot help much. However, I suggest that you collect as much concrete information as possible, such as bulletin comments and then make this situation know to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.
Please follow my tips for writing.
Some more details about the situation are in a forum post at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=3307451
According to the writer on that page, the prohibition came from the OMVs’ Superior General, Fr. Patrice Veraquin. OMVs have been involved with indult Masses in various cities, so this is a puzzling announcement.
One can only hope that the Ecclesia Dei commission will clarify what is proper.
Comment by RC — 13 February 2008 @ 7:20 amYou are fighting an uphill battle against all odds. The general hostility of the clergy and religious orders to
Comment by Jim — 13 February 2008 @ 7:51 amthe Holy Father’s initiative will doom the TLM except in a few fortunate places. It will be decades
before there is any reform, if it ever occurs.
This brings up a interesting point, that I have been asking about here and there. What are the rights of a religious order priest if they want to celebrate the Mass in the Extraordinary Rite, can a monk for instance enjoy the benefits of the ER, how might this compare to a member of a active order?
Comment by Fr. John — 13 February 2008 @ 8:37 amJim,
Comment by danphunter1 — 13 February 2008 @ 8:39 amThats BS.
In North Carolina, alone, the Church went from having not one single diocesan aproved Tridentine Mass in 2003 [other than the SSPX Mass that was offered regularly in three different places]
to once a month in one church, in the same year, to every Sunday in 2004.
And now there are four other churches that offer the Mass once per month, including the diocesan Cathedral,not to mention the ten that will begin in the Diocese of Charlotte at some point this year..
There are at least 30 priests in the state that are learning the Tridentine Mass and the Bishop of Raleigh wholeheartedly supports the so called ,”Extraordinary Form”.
There is great hope in the United States for the spread of the Immemorial Tridentine mAss.
Deo Gratias!
This sounds very strange to me. I was once a seminarian with the Oblates before leaving them to join the FSSP, and although I do not know the current superior general mentioned, I never thought the OMV’s to be hostile to the TLM. Indeed, the rector tried to talk me out of leaving telling me that I would also be able to celebrate the TLM as an Oblate! I found the OMV’s to be at least liturgically conservative and also very faithful to the Holy Father, so this news indeed sounds puzzling.
Comment by Todd — 13 February 2008 @ 9:01 amThis sounds very strange to me. I was once a seminarian with the Oblates before leaving them to join the FSSP, and although I do not know the current superior general mentioned, I never thought the OMV’s to be hostile to the TLM. Indeed, the rector tried to talk me out of leaving telling me that I would also be able to celebrate the TLM as an Oblate! I found the OMV’s to be at least liturgically conservative and also very faithful to the Holy Father, so this news indeed sounds puzzling.
Comment by Todd — 13 February 2008 @ 9:05 amHi. In my diocese, in Italy, we have the same situation (even worse) with an important Order (sorry, I can’t say which one, for the moment we must keep silent).
I spoke with officials in Vatican and they gave me a line of conduct.
So, if you want contact me: ask Father Z. for my e-mail and I’ll share the suggestions we got at a very high level.
Do not despair: our endurance is strengthened by persecutions
Comment by enrico — 13 February 2008 @ 9:12 amJim… have to agree with Dan on this one… we went from 1 Mass per month at one location to now 4 Sunday morning Masses in the Diocese, a Daily Mass at one location and plans for a fifth Sunday Mass and a second daily Mass in the south end of the Diocese. All of this while our FSSP Priest (who was brought here by the Bishop) is training our Priests in the EF. There is A LOT happening in a lot of places. There are bad spots of course, but I think your prediction is a bit overly pessimistic, unless of course you were hoping for an overnight change in every church to exclusive use of the EF.
Comment by Chironomo — 13 February 2008 @ 9:55 amI wonder if the Bishop should be informed of the situation,
with proofs and witnesses, and ask him to mediate a solution
to this unfortunate incident.
I fear that if the PCED is is reached first, the local Bishop
Comment by Derik Castillo — 13 February 2008 @ 10:53 amwill be angry for not being consulted.
I think Derik Castillo gives good advice.
Firstly, the bishop is to be consulted.
If he can do nothing, then the matter is referred to the Pontifical “Ecclesia Dei” Commission.
Comment by Dr. Peter H. Wright — 13 February 2008 @ 11:50 amMr. Castillo,
If the Oblates are an exempt order of pontifical right, which I belive they are, they will not look kindly on an attempt to involve the bishop in what they would consider an internal matter.
My suggestion is that people go to their general first with their complaints and then to Rome.
Comment by Fr. Augustine Thompson O.P. — 13 February 2008 @ 11:53 amFather wrote:
“Please follow my tips for writing.”
( Also with regards to Enrico )
()
Very good points, Father. Good for an amicable exchange. I think something short and to the point is also in order. “Are you going to allow the Tridentine Mass again or do you want your donations cut off?”
Comment by Matt Q — 13 February 2008 @ 11:56 amMatt Q: You do raise a good point. People have an obligation to support Holy Church with their “time, treasure and talent”. But there are various ways to fulfill that obligation.
My experience has been that people who attend the older form of Mass can be quite generous.
That is something practical for pastors and bishops to consider.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 13 February 2008 @ 12:06 pmJim wrote”
“You are fighting an uphill battle against all odds. The general hostility of the clergy and religious orders to the Holy Father’s initiative will doom the TLM except in a few fortunate places. It will be decades before there is any reform, if it ever occurs.”
()
Sadly, Jim, you are right. Merely setting an example or allowing things to occur does nothing. Until Rome sets a mandate with censures or penalties, there will be no progress, no advancing of the Tridentine Mass and no reforming of the Novus Ordo. This chaotic morass goes on and on.
Comment by Matt Q — 13 February 2008 @ 12:09 pmThe Oblate community in Hawaiian Gardens is very orthodox and their approach works for the surrounding community. The area of the city in which the parish is located is of low to mid-socioeconomic status. The parish has like five or six masses every Sunday and their Spanish Masses are usually bursting at the seams. The folks at the OVM main office in Boston are less orthodox than the Oblates stationed in Hawaiian Gardens. It’s appears a Bostonian approach doesn’t apply to the general community served by the Oblates in Hawaiian Gardens.
Comment by Hicardo — 13 February 2008 @ 12:20 pmI attend a parish in the Archdiocese of Denver, Holy Ghost, that is staffed by O.M.V. priests and they are extremely orthodox. We have a Novus Ordo High Mass in latin each Sunday and it is well attended. I know Fr. Ed Broom (from St Joseph’s radio) is an associate pastor at the church in Hawaiian Gardens and he is certainly orthodox. Before we start jumping to conclusions here we need to get the entire story. The O.M.V.’s are not a bunch of dungaree-wearing, pot-smoking, magisterium-denying, felt banner creating, Henri Nouwen reading, “we are Resurrection people and Alleluia is our song” priests.
God Bless
Comment by Thomas Morrison — 13 February 2008 @ 12:41 pmHicardo wrote:
“The Oblate community in Hawaiian Gardens is very orthodox and their approach works for the surrounding community. The area of the city in which the parish is located is of low to mid-socio-economic status. The parish has like five or six masses every Sunday and their Spanish Masses are usually bursting at the seams. The folks at the OVM main office in Boston are less orthodox than the Oblates stationed in Hawaiian Gardens. It’s appears a Bostonian approach doesn’t apply to the general community served by the Oblates in Hawaiian Gardens.”
()
Well said, Hicardo, but that’s the way it went. So, now what?
Comment by Matt Q — 13 February 2008 @ 12:48 pmI may be wrong about the above statement about the orders coming from Boston. They may be from the Oblates in Italy, who are way more liberal than the American Oblates.
Comment by Hicardo — 13 February 2008 @ 12:52 pmAs I expressed at the other forum, I’m confused by several points.
First of all, there’s no such creature as an “indult parish” or “indult Mass” any longer, thanks to Papa Ratzinger and the MP (am I correct)?
Second of all, I wasn’t aware that either the EF or the OF were an “apostolate” to “be embraced.”
It was pointed out to me that section 3 of the MP makes it pretty clear that order priests must comply with the superior of their community on this point, but I had the impression that this dealt with the celebration of the EF in a monastic community setting, not with priests serving a diocesan parish. Can somebody clarify this point?
Comment by David Andrew — 13 February 2008 @ 1:09 pmFr. Augustine Thompson O.P.
Thanks for your comment. It is true that the first one to be informed
is the Superior General. I may be wrong, but according to the post,
it may be him who came up with the decision we are discussing.
What was in my mind is what I read in the letter of His Holiness to
the Bishops with respect to the Motu Proprio:
‘Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 22)’
God Bless
Comment by Derik Castillo — 13 February 2008 @ 1:19 pmFr. Augustine Thompson O.P.
I am sorry, I did not write my point clearly. I do not wish the
Comment by Derik Castillo — 13 February 2008 @ 1:26 pmBishop to impose something on the OMV. I would like to thing that
it is possible to relocate that Mass, with the help of the
Bishop.
I must respond. In my neck of the woods (Santa Rosa Diocese, CA), the bishop claims to have taken a poll of the priests, and only one was at all interested in the TLM. I know from personal experience that 98% of the priests in this diocese are hostile to the concept. I suspect that Santa Rosa is not alone in this. Our diocese, which stretches from Marin County to the Oregon border has only one TLM —-in Petaluma. One has to drive for hours to attend it. Some of you folks live in areas where hostility is less vigorous; but Santa Rosa lies within the Left Coast. I do not expect to see real reform in my lifetime. The liturgical abuses in this area remain rampant.
Comment by Jim — 13 February 2008 @ 1:27 pmSt Peter Chanel is one of the most—if not the most—orthodox and devotional parishes in the archdiocese. E.g., there are more confessions heard here on an average weekday morning at SPC than are heard in most American parishes in a month of Saturdays. In a sense, this is part of the “problem”. These priests take their vows seriously; if there has been a directive from their religious superiors, there is no earthly way these priests will disobey it.
The Archdiocese in question is Los Angeles. The suggestion to write the archbishop makes one smile. (Yes, I am old and cynical. I got that way in this Archdiocese.)
Finally, the Mass at St Peter Chanel is not the only Sunday Mass in the area in the extraordinary form. St Theresa’s in Alhambra has one at 1 p.m. every Sunday. The Mass at noon at St Mary’s by the Sea (a touch less than a half hour’s drive from St Peter chanel) in the Diocese of Orange has resumed. Ss Peter and Paul in Wilmington has an early morning Mass—6:15 a.m., IIRC. And our wonderful Fr Robert Bishop is still celebrating the indult “circuit” Masses each Sunday. (Check the Una Voce Los Angeles site for the details; it gets a bit complicated.)
Comment by John — 13 February 2008 @ 3:08 pmYes, I was there l