I am sure some of you recall that during the Notre Shame debacle I repeated constantly that Pres. Obama was trying purposely to subvert the Catholic community. Some of you said I was crying "Wolf!".
This is from Lifesite:
Architect of Betrayal?: WH Exposes Obama as Provocateur of Catholic Dissention
By Peter J. Smith and Kathleen Gilbert
WASHINGTON, DC, March 18, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) – White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs revealed to reporters today that President Barack Obama actively promoted the Catholic Health Association’s public break with the American Catholic bishops to support his health care legislation. [Read that again. Slowly. Remember it.]
Gibbs also suggested that the CHA and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious’ (LCWR) break with the U.S. Bishops has provided legitimate political cover for pro-life Democrats to switch their votes from "no" to "yes." [Read that again.]
"I think over the past twenty four hours we have seen strong indications from those in the Catholic Church that support our belief that the legislation is about health care reform, and that it shouldn’t and doesn’t change the existing federal law [on abortion]. [And I think that is a lie. But… you decide.] The Catholic Health Association and the order of nun’s support [NB…] is very important," Gibbs told reporters on the White House lawn for Thursday’s press conference.
CHA president Sr. Carol Keehan and LCWR sparked an uproar this week after they came out definitively in favor of the Senate health care bill, which top pro-life organizations such as the National Right to Life Committee and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, in addition to countless others, have strongly condemned as unacceptable for its abortion funding provisions. Since then, in their quest to woo the final pro-life Democrat holdouts among House lawmakers, party leaders have attempted to paint CHA’s support for the bill as a bona fide endorsement from the Catholic community. [Get that? CHA’s support was "bona fide endoresment from the CATHOLIC community"? This is why I wrote "A magisterium of nuns". They have set themselves up as an alternative magisterium to that of the Church with the bishops.]
So far, the president’s strategy appears to have paid off: some lawmakers have evidently already taken the two groups’ endorsements as an excuse to switch their vote. [I hate being right about things like this.]
Gibbs cited Congressman Dale Kildee’s (D-MI) Wednesday press conference – in which he explained how CHA’s endorsement had "affected his thinking" to get him to support the bill – as a sign that [NB] Democrats may be able to get more lawmakers on board in the same way.
Gibbs said that the president had been engaged on the issue, and a reporter asked if he had reached out personally to the groups.
"The President met earlier this week with Sr. Keehan of the CHA," said Gibbs, saying the meeting took place in the Roosevelt Room, but that he "did not get a detailed run-down of the pitch that [Obama] made."
"I do know that he was effusive about her support and her as a person for making the courageous statements that she has," he said. [And I bet he doesn’t remember her name today.]
Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH), one of the pro-life Democrat holdouts against the bill, pointed out this week that, as a trade association, the Catholic Health Association (CHA) has more at stake with the bill’s passage than it may openly admit.
"I think the hospitals have a different perspective because they’re running large institutions," Kaptur said. "They have a lot of issues at stake. [Remember: Just because a nun works in a hospital, that doesn’t mean she gets to set up her own magisterium in opposition to the bishops.] They have to balance their budgets and so forth. I think that the Bishops are probably in a different position. I don’t think that they’re really managerially responsible for these institutions."
Unlike the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, [TAKE CAREFUL NOTE…] CHA is a for-profit entity, and analysts have pointed out that it would greatly benefit financially from the passage of the bill. [And?] CHA had already promised large sums of money to the Obama administration in July to help pass the legislation – before it was ever crafted.
I say, close their hospitals…. take the name "Catholic" away from them completely as institutions.
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This became apparent to me while watching The World Over on EWTN last evening. Pres. Obama and his lackeys are purposely sowing seeds of division in the Catholic Church in the USA. Unbelievable and unacceptable.
Close the hospitals. We need to dis-affiliate ourselves from them. They are a violation of our Catholic identity and a millstone around our neck.
Let them go. Sell the buildings and use the money to build catholic identity via real adult education and funding for conversion to the genuine Catholic faith.
In a different chapter of history, it was necessary to build big institutions of medical renown to spread & live out the faith. That’s how hospitals came to be catholic apostolates.
But apparently they are no longer fulfilling that function in the contemporary church. Fine, we don’t need them then, at least in the form they are in now. Get rid of them and find what does work.
The IL Supreme Court decided this week that a hospital run by an order of nuns, Provena hospitals, are not exempt from local property taxes. No religious exemption. CHA intervened in that case.
“Since then, in their quest to woo the final pro-life Democrat holdouts among House lawmakers, party leaders have attempted to paint CHA’s support for the bill as a bona fide endorsement from the Catholic community. [Get that? CHA’s support was “bona fide endoresment from the CATHOLIC community”? This is why I wrote “A magisterium of nuns”. They have set themselves up as an alternative magisterium to that of the Church with the bishops.]”
‘They’ are preparing us for the US Underground Catholic Church…am I the only one who sees this?
LORD HELP US!
I say, close their hospitals….
Apparently you forget those hospitals provide essential medical services to sick and injured people in communities, many in places where no alternatives exist. If you were dragged from a burning building and placed on a helicopter clinging to life, would you like to be taken to the nearest building with a burn unit, or several a few hundred miles further to one that was actually staffed?
take the name “Catholic” away from them completely as institutions.
Now that? That is an excellent suggestion, one that those on both sides of the extremes can cheer.
I believe ‘they’-the nuns, running the hospitals, have been waiting to get the Church out! The local ‘Catholic’ hospital took all the crucifixes out of the building/rooms, so as not to offend patients.
What else are they doing in those hospitals-is the question. What are the salaries of these nuns and where is that money going?
Close the hospitals. Sell the property. Use the money to finance something Catholic.
BTW, has WDTPRS/blog been kicked off the InsideCatholic “around the web” section? They need someone to balance all of their pro-Obamacare propaganda.
“Close the hospitals. Sell the property. Use the money to finance something Catholic.”
Problem: They more than likely all have Protestant boards that are concerned with keeping them open…and not just for community purposes…let’s face it…they need to make money too!
Denis: has WDTPRS/blog been kicked off the InsideCatholic “around the web” section?
I don’t know.
It’s time, no it’s past time for the Bishops as a whole and individually to dust off their copies of the Rite of Excommunication and start using them. The only reason these women (and others involved)can continue to call themselves Catholic while causing division and scandal within the Church and making us all look like a bunch of fools is because the Bishops refuse to act like Bishops.
I think the US bishops have been doing a great job regarding this health care nonsense. Let us be thankful for the good work that they are doing, and pray they have the courage to do even more.
Postcatholic By your reckoning, would we also have to keep open hospitals once Big Brother mandates abortions be done in all hospitals?
B/c they will be mandated; teaching hospitals will have to teach abortion; to be come a doctor you will have to become proficient in performing abortions.
Don’t say it can not happen; all the above has been implemented or proposed in the state of New York.
Abortion is a sacrament in the liberal church. B/c humans flinch in horror at the thought of abortion on demand, even beyond birth (as Obama said, it’s a right to a successful abortion), all citizens will be made culpable by being dragged into the abortuary. At the very least, we will all be mandated to pay for abortions.
Obama has thrown his best friends and closest allies under the bus…..do these people think he will have any hesitation at all to say “thanks for helping us get this passed….and sorry that we now have to add the abortion funding back in!”
At least Judas had the decency to hang himself when he discovered he had been used….
I worked for a Catholic hospital for close to twenty years. During that time the sisters were looking to partnerships with non-Catholic entities to keep the doors open. When questioned about life issues, especially abortion, management would look for ways around following the Ethical and Religious Directives to make the partnerships work. I remember one sister, a former OB nurse, would tell us how “cleansing the womb” had been going on in Catholic hospitals for years and we shouldn’t worry about. To see these sisters supporting this language doesn’t surprise me. We need to keep praying folks, keep praying.
Well, since nothing was done to Father Jenkins or ND, [Yes, indeed. What a moment that was. I hope they are proud of that day.] it anyone really surprised that these nuns did this? The Bishops have one chance. They can exclude these orders of nuns from the collection for retired religious. If they do nothing (again), they can expect more of the same.
These nuns are just more CINOs, it’s infuriating. The ammunition they have given the pro-aborts is unconscionable. It is frightening to think that this ploy by BO is intentional, and Gibbs seems to state just that in the above article. All we can do is continue to pray hard that Satan’s plans fail.
Postcatholic By your reckoning, would we also have to keep open hospitals once Big Brother mandates abortions be done in all hospitals? B/c they will be mandated; teaching hospitals will have to teach abortion; to be come a doctor you will have to become proficient in performing abortions.
By my reckoning? If that’s what happens, those who object to it will get out of the business of providing elective surgeries such as abortion. Fewer religious institutions in the business of provision of medical monopolies (as are Catholic hospitals in certain places) means a medical ethics dialogue that’s more reflective of American society. If they won’t go out of business because of competition, I’m all for Catholic conservatives driving them out of Catholicism for the sake of orthodoxy. The result will be a waning of the influence of Catholicism on America. Understand that a purer American Catholicism (or purer conservative Christianity, for that matter) is also a smaller one, and the larger parts of the society think that is good.
All the above has been implemented or proposed in the state of New York.
Is there any idea that has never been proposed in the State of New York? Awfully big place with an awfully large intellectual economy.
Abortion is a sacrament in the liberal church.
That is both ignorant of Liberal churches and insulting to them. Firstly, most Liberal religion is non-sacramental in nature. Secondly, in the liberal churches you will find a diversity of opinion on abortion and respect-for-life matters, just as you will in the Catholic faiths. Thirdly, a big point of departure from Catholic ecclesiology and that of Liberal religions is the use of the democratic principles for governance, which necessarily means a patience with opposition. Fourthly, all Liberal religion is abhorrent in principle and in praxis of coercion. Fifth and finally, Liberal religions typically formulate that they are committed to the development of a just society–and in a truly just society the demand for abortion would be very much diminished.
cf Wikipedia’s article on “Liberal Religion” for a primer.
You know, this is sickening. I’m a convert and the ONLY Catholic in my family. It’s getting harder and harder to explain these things, (as in… we are the True Church, we are different that Protestants) when there is no penalty for being publicly against all the Church teaches, and still call yourself Catholic. I’m begining to believe that Bishop Lefebvre was more right that wrong.
God forgive me, but I’m wanting to SEE some heads roll about now!
Postcatholic “the liberal church” plainly means liberalism as a religion for the secular. I know that one has to dumb down statements for liberals, but this is really too much :)
I’m glad I flushed you out: I’m all for Catholic conservatives driving them out of Catholicism for the sake of orthodoxy. The result will be a waning of the influence of Catholicism on America. Understand that a purer American Catholicism (or purer conservative Christianity, for that matter) is also a smaller one, and the larger parts of the society think that is good. It’s not so much you’re a ‘postcatholic’ as an anti catholic, a know nothing.
Abortion is a sacrament in the liberal church that teh Democrat party represents. It’s pretty nigh a sacrament in the mainline protestant churches. Which are shrinking, and the larger parts of the society think that is good.
You didn’t “flush me out”; I volunteered.
You’re conflating a political party with religion. (It’s also the “Democratic party.” I’m not sure why conservatives like to refer to it as the “Democrat party” but it seems like a weak attempt at a pejorative.) There’s much in both the platform of political parties that stands in opposition to Catholic moral instruction on the dignity of life. I tend to think that both parties represent people from a spectrum of religious traditions, so your statement that “the liberal party which teh [sic] Democrat [sic] party represents,” is over-reaching.
I attended St. Pius X Seminary/University of Scranton in Dalton, Pennsylvania and St. Patrick’s College/Pontifical University of Maynooth in County Kildare, Ireland as a diocesan seminarian. I’m not a know-nothing. I’m someone who’s spent quite a lot of time studying Catholicism and who has decided it’s not a worthy spiritual path. You would do well to remember that not all of your opposition in life will be uneducated. You may think they are wrong, and that is your right, but a bit of humility will always serve your argument. Not to mention your soul.
Instead of teachers with itching ears, it’s voter support of itching ears, or maybe better said as itching mouths. And CHA helps with its 30 pieces of silver. We have to pray that they don’t end up like Judas.
I’ve said it before in other posts and I’ll say it again….the true Roman Catholic Church is the most formidable opponent of Marxism. Obama is a Marxist and some members of Congress like Pelosi are fellow travelers. The “book” Obama has studied for years says do whatever it takes to eliminate your opponents. Lie, trick, or use hit men….in this case he has duped some so-called catholics into being his hit men.
EXCHIEF you are right on the money. For those who studied anything about the Fatima apparitions, including those to Sr. Lucy later, and interviews with her: she warned that the US was one of the countries which would go down the wrong path. At that time, that was surprising to many. Wasn’t it Kruschev…I know it was one of the Soviet leaders…who said that they would never have to drop a bomb on the US? Just give us a long enough rope and we would hang ourselves and become Communist.
It’s a scary world to be raising children in; that’s for sure. May God protect all of them (and us) and help them save their souls, and be strong soldiers in His army, even if it means martyrdom. Seeing how fast Obama has worked and where he has taken us in only one year, a physical persecution of the Church here one day certainly is not an impossibility. Satan has not forgotten how to use it.
Omnes sancti et sanctae Dei, intercedite pro nobis.
What exactly does this bill say about abortion?
Can someone provide a specific reference?
Thanks
PostCatholic,
Your screen name says it all.
Hey, PostCatholic, you wouldn’t happen to be a particular Jesuit in Japan, would you?
No, I would happen to be in Maryland and I was never a Jesuit. Thanks for the compliment on my screen name.
PostCatholic “I’m not a know-nothing I’m someone who’s spent quite a lot of time studying” Wow! You really do need things dumbed down, way down. [Stow that, please! We need a civil tone in the combox.] The Know Nothing Party was an anti-Catholic political grouping in the USA. Your views fit theirs quite well. Every fourth grader in Lackawanna County knows that; except you and all your vaunted studying.
You are arrogant and uneducated. Qute a combination.
PC You can’t even COPY straight
Grabski: in the liberal church that teh Democrat party represents
PC desperately trying to make a coherent point, quoting Grabski (w/ quotation marks, mind you): so your statement that “the liberal party which teh [sic] Democrat [sic] party represents,”
The Democrat (yes, they are clearly not democratic) Party represents the liberal church, whose sacrament is abortion.
Hope that clear it up for you. Study on it.
muckemdanno – It isn’t that abortion wording is specific, but that the dems have said that they refuse to eliminate it. It’s the usual gobbledegook. It will be funded. You can bank on it.
I agree with Father Z, disconnect the “Church’s” support unless the hospital (including employees, staff, backers) want to remain truth to the teachings of the Catholic Church. There are some left. Other wise… dear Lord, has it really come to this already?
What is next? Chaplains and Chapels for the military — gotta go too?
Fr Z, Somewhere in these discussions someone (yourself?) needs to point out the canonical (and real) distinction between ‘nuns’– women who take ‘solemn vows’ and live in cloistered monasteries and abbeys — generally following a strong spiritual life; & ‘sisters’ — women who generally take ‘simple vows’and who are involved mainly in the ‘social works’ — hospitals, schools, etc and who in good numbers have formed themselves into the new ‘clerical class’in the Church — a class which is interested generally in politics and power wielding both in the Church and civily too.
Fr Z [Stow that, please! We need a civil tone in the combox.] I apologize. I needed to take a deep breath before responding to provocation.
Mea maxima culpa.
I’m sorry if you feel I provoked you, Grabski. I have done my best not to be insulting. And I did not realize you were referring to an ancient American political movement dedicated to curbing immigration for two reasons. One, you didn’t capitalize the term so I did not recognize it as a proper noun, and two, quite frankly no one has ever tried to categorize me in such a group simply because I am no longer a proponent of Catholic teaching. My views do not accord with the Know Nothing party and in any event, I live in the present, not the 1840’s.
In any event, I am sincerely not trying to be arrogant. And I truly have no idea to which liberal church you are referring when you stake the claim that it has abortion as a sacrament. Perhaps you could be specific.
PC Of course the following was meant to be insulting: I have studied “Catholicism and …decided it’s not a worthy spiritual path.” Or “That is … ignorant” or “The result will be a waning of the influence of Catholicism on America. Understand that a purer American Catholicism (or purer conservative Christianity, for that matter) is also a smaller one, and the larger parts of the society think that is good”
Of course the following was meant to be arrogant “a bit of humility will always serve your argument. Not to mention your soul”
Grabski, please distinguish between oppositional ideas and the personal insult. There is much I admire about Catholicism or I would not be here to discuss it with you.
I stand my point which you quote, which is that a purer Catholic church is a smaller one, and like the majority of Americans who are opposed to Catholic teachings, I would welcome it becoming less influential. This is a statement both of fact and of my personal opinion, and it is not a personal insult. And in light of the insults you’ve been hurling at me (for which I forgive you), I stand by an admonition to humility, too.
Now let’s move back to the topic at hand. Perhaps you could be specific about what liberal church you believe has abortion as ‘an outward sign of inward grace,’ and why you think so.
“Perhaps you could be specific about what liberal church you believe has abortion as ‘an outward sign of inward grace'”
Oh come on, don’t you know a metaphor or figure of speech when you see it? I don’t know of ANY church (not even the Church of Satan) that LITERALLY enshrines abortion as a sacrament or that really regards it as “an outward sign of inward grace”. Just like we all know that Christ Himself didn’t literally command self-mutilation when he said “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.”
Abortion is a “sacrament” of the “liberal church” in the sense that SOME religious liberals, including some who insist on identifying as Catholic, treat the right to abortion as if it were as sacred as the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion. It also is a way of expressing how they guard the right to abortion on demand from even the slightest breach or contamination (e.g. partial-birth bans, parental notification) as zealously as devout Catholics would guard the Blessed Sacrament itself from desecration.
Ah. So what you’re saying, bookworm, is that some Catholic religious liberals use the favoring of access to abortion as a the acid test of liberal identity. I don’t disagree. That sounds a lot like the accusation one quite frequently hears that some Catholic conservatives view opposition to access to abortion as a litmus test of Catholic identity.
Actually, you can have all your cock-eyed litmus tests, PostCatholic. Abortion is about the bloody corpses of small children laying in dumpsters and the devastated lives of their mothers.
I’m very sure I didn’t tip my hand as to my own feelings on abortion, catholicmidwest. Please don’t make a presumption.
I feel for Bart Stupak. He is trusting the word of a person whose first executive order was to mandate abortion in US foreign aid. A person who fought the “Born Alive Act” in the IL State Senate. And who actually called Roe v Wade as providing a ‘right to a successful abortion’.
May the Lord preserve the faithful.
I understand the sentiment behind disaffiliating with the hospitals, but that doesn’t really get to the problem. There will still be a fifth column within the Church and they will pursue the fight elsewhere. Doesn’t really get us anywhere, and we retreat from a place where we could defend the unborn.
PostCatholic, I don’t give a rip what your “hand” is. You’re just one more person in a world of billions of people, just like I am. We’re talking about ideas, and ingenue acts are irrelevant, so please don’t cop one with me.
Well, Steve, a common theme in this blog is Catholic identity. If we’re ever going to get anyplace, we’re going to have to reaffirm Catholic identity, which means that the 5th column is going to have to declare itself one way or the other. We can’t keep going the way we are. We’re not going to be able to control our “5th column”-EVER-so the next best thing is to motivate them to eject themselves. And in the process consolidate who we are and get a grip on our mission.
Do you really think we’re currently able to help the unborn much? Especially the way things are going? REALLY?
Fair enough, catholicmidwest. I apologize for personalizing your statements.