The Tablet‘s Robert Micken’s drills into the question of Gaudencial Card. Rosales treatment of the Pope’s provision in Summorum Pontificum.
You might remember the Cardinal’s lack of positive enthusiasm.
My emphases and comments.
PHILIPPINES
Cardinal accused of disobeying PopeRobert Mickens
In RomeTHE HEAD of the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei commission has reprimanded the Archbishop of Manila, Cardinal Gaudencio Rosales, for setting “unduly restrictive” conditions on use of the Tridentine Mass, [Again… update on the terms! No one really says "Tridentine" anymore.] saying they were “in direct contradiction” to the wishes of Pope Benedict XVI.
“Your ‘Archdiocesan Guidelines’ are simply not acceptable as they stand and I ask you to reconsider them,” said the Ecclesia Dei president, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, in a letter dated 6 March and seen by The Tablet this week. It said “guidelines allowing only a monthly Mass in a chapel of [the] Metropolitan Cathedral” were in violation of the norms established in the motu proprio, “Summorum Pontificum”, issued by the Pope in 2007 for the widespread use of the Tridentine Mass. [Get this…] Cardinal Castrillón said the papal decree was “part of the universal law of the Church” and could not be limited by the “particular law” of a diocesan bishop. [This is the part that the Pope’s enemies in this matter will really hate!] The Archdiocese of Manila ministers to more than 2.8 million Catholics.
“There is simply no legitimate reason why this [Tridentine] Mass cannot and should not be celebrated in any church or chapel of your archdiocese,” Cardinal Castrillón said in his letter to the Archbishop of Manila.
[Read closely…] He insisted that Cardinal Rosales actively promote the implementation of the motu proprio by “helping priests who are desirous to learn how to celebrate” the old rite Mass, which he said only required that the priest be “reasonably competent in Latin”, [which, as WDTPRS has been saying all along, means that the priest can pronounce the words properly. We want more, of course, but that is the minimum. And what is required is sufficiency, the minimum, not expertise.] and that there were faithful [no number set… and the coetus mentioned in the Motu Proprio might be very small indeed.] who wished to assist at its celebration. The Archdiocese of Manila published the Tridentine Mass guidelines on its website last year. But they were quickly removed when supporters of the old rite protested to Rome.
…
Loading ...
…a terrific response by Cardinal Castrillon, and a swift one, too…
Praise Jesus!
Salamat sa Diyos.
It must take a long time for mail to arrive in Manila from Rome,for those odious restrictions are still posted on the website.
I am concerned about where this backwards movement on the liturgy is headed. What about the young? I feel we are throwing away all the great fruits of Vatican II.
“No one really says ‘Tridentine’ anymore.”
I can only speak for the most Germans I know: No one really says “extradordinary form” or even “extraordinary form of the Roman Rite”. It’s nothing more than a artificial ad hoc-invention of the Holy Father. All traditional Catholics I know simply say “Old Mass” or “Tridentine Mass”, although they know that the Tridentine Mass wasn’t invented at the Tridentine Council.
Barbara,
What are those great fruits?
Pax Christi tecum
Barbara,
What, pray tell, are the great fruits of Vatican II? It’s been over 40 years and I don’t think that the council has even borne any fruit, much less great fruit.
Besides, as a teenage Catholic (And a member of a pretty young parish)I can tell you that a good number of young people are actively in or attracted to ‘this backwards movement on the liturgy’.
What is there to be concerned about?
Unless you’re not inclusive enough to give ample place to those who like an alternate liturgy, it’s all good.
German, I agree. I can’t recall hearing anyone use the phrase “Extraordinary Form.” What I normally hear around Central and West Texas circles is “Old Mass,” “Tridentine Mass,” or “Latin Mass.” Of course, this is Texas, and we have never been accused of being up to speed with current fashion.
And I wonder if Barbara wasn’t being a touch sarcastic?
Update on the update is that here in New York everyone still says Tridentine….At least that is the situation on the ground, even if we are not supposed to anymore..
[LOL! Okay everyone… DNFTT… ]
The great fruits:
(1) The Liturgy of Paul VI
(2) Mass facing the people
(3) The introduction of folk instruments into the liturgy
(4) The reordering of church interiors
(5) Altar girls
(6) Extraordinary ministers of the eucharist
(7) The relaxing of restrictions on receiving communion by Catholics and, in some cases, non-Catholics
(8) Ecumenism
(9) Recognizing that God’s grace works through non-Christian religions
(10) Freeing theology from excessive Church oversight
(11) Lay leadership
(12) Affirmation of religious liberty
(13) The restoration of the importance of national bishops conferences
(14) Married clergy in special circumstances and openness to wider acceptance of it in the future
(15) The discussion of women’s ordination
(16) Recognizing the separation of church and state
(17) Not imposing our beliefs on others through political coercion
(18) Lifting of the excommunications on the Orthodox
(19) Interreligious services, especially with Protestants and Eastern religions
(20) Doctrinal agreements with the Lutherans on Justification and the Anglicans on almost all theological issues
(21) Realizing Catholicism is not only a white man’s religion
(22) Lay theologians
(23) The new rite of exorcism – and the new rites for virtually all the Church’s rituals
(24) Baptism and other sacraments moved within the great Eucharistic celebration and gathering of the community
(25) Revival of the meal-aspect of the Liturgy of the Eucharist
(26) Restoration of the permanent diaconate
The Archidocese of Manila’s guidelines seem to have been revised:
http://www.rcam.org/liturgical_news/clarifications_on_summorum_pontificum.htm
Maybe Barbara means “fruits” like the collapse in religious and priestly vocations, the mass apostasy of Catholic laity, and the precipitous decline in Sunday Mass attendance.
And then there’s the other question Barbara should answer. In what way does the modern Roman liturgy have any relation to the express wishes of the II. Vatican council regarding the liturgy?
Barbara et. al, I really like this one:
“Realizing Catholicism is not only a white man’s religion”
LOL!!!
Barbara,
Could it be that the great fruit of VII is the return to orthodoxy?
The great fruits:
Basically none of that stuff was requested or approved by the council. A lot of it was introduced by disobedient and defiant clergy.
Nice trolling, Barbara.
The Archidocese of Manila’s guidelines seem to have been revised:
No that document was posted on the website on 28 September 2007.
Barbara, great joke! I should’ve known it was sarcasm. You had me going there.
At least six of those have roots in Vatican I, not Vatican II,three were actually condemned or discouraged by Paul VI himself and the council, three seem to be just ideology, and the rest were either not mentioned by the council or happened 20-30 years after it had closed. Do work on your sarcasm a bit more, some of us almost thought you were serious.
Verily, verily, I think Barbara is having us all on. At any rate, my wife, a cradle Mexican, would take issue with the idea of Catholicism ever having been for white boys only.
And hurray for Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos! Methinks his remarks are not just pointed at Manila.
Other great fruits
(27) Communion in the hand
(28) Communion under both kinds
(29) Lay readers at Mass – especially women
(30) Returning religious orders to their original charisms
(31) Changing the Church’s teaching from pro- to anti- death penalty
(32) Church architecture that reflects the times
(33) Free speech on Catholic university and college campuses
(34) Concelebration instead of private masses
(35) The preferential option for the poor
(36) Restoring serving the poor the center of our understanding of what it means to evangelize
(37) Getting rid of the mantilla
(38) Womens’ religious orders running their own affairs
(39) The acceptance in most places of non-practicing homosexual clergy
(40) Inclusiveness
(41) Getting rid of nineteenth century ecclesiastical dress
(42) The suppression of the subdiaconate
(43) The elimination of Latin from our worship in most places and restoration of the vernacular liturgy
(44) Reconciliation rooms replacing confessionals
(45) Realizing the sacrament of the sick is not only for the dying
(46) Recovering a sense of “the sacraments of initiation”
(47) Dynamic translations of liturgical texts
(48) Eliminating explicit references to the power to forgive sins and to effect the transubstantiation at Mass from the rite of priestly ordination
(49) Women parish administrators
(50) Incorporating insights from other religions
You know, guys… maayyyyybe you should reconsider the insults to Vatican II. This is supposed to be a happy thread about how happy we are with what the Vatican’s doing. You might want to consider looking more like happy, faithful traditionalists, as opposed to disobedient modernists.
I know it’s hard not to have kneejerk reactions, but honestly, this isn’t the time. And it makes you really easy to set up to look disobedient.
Is Fr. Z. reading this or is he out there testriding his brand new Bugatti?
In what way was Vatican II insulted in this thread?
Not all of these blessings were called for by Vatican II explicitly, but they are all part of the wonderful flowering of Church life that has occurred in the wake of the Council and stem from its spirit, an outpouring that I was privileged to witness first hand. I am deeply afraid that that spirit is now being rolled back.
More great fruits
(51) Lay preachers on special occasions – including women religious
(52) Standing for the Eucharistic prayer
(53) Removal of the communion rail
(54) Standing for receiving communion
(55) Free-standing altars that look like dinner tables
(56) Accessible music introduced into the liturgy
(57) Downplaying or denying Hell, judgment, wrath, and purgatory
(58) Reconsidering theologically whether a belief in the literal resurrection and other “miracles” is truly part of the Catholic faith
(59) Liturgical dance
60) Overcoming the oppressive sense of sin and belief in original sin as something that “marks” us at birth
(61) Affirming the body – especially women’s bodies
(62) Assuming that non-Christians are people of good will rather than “lost” because they don’t know Jesus
(63) Rejecting fundamentalism
(64) Recovering a sense of “social sin” and “social justice”
(65) Understanding that faith is not an assent to propositions but a lived experience
(66) Fulfilling the Sunday obligation by going to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy occasionally
(67) Excommunicating hateful extremists like the Society of St. Pius X
(68) Overcoming scholasticism
(69) Making it much easier to get an annulment
(70) Condemning the Holocaust
(71) Easing restrictions that made it hard for Catholics to marry non-Catholics in the Church
(72) Ending the scandal of further Uniatism by which Rome poached on the flocks of Eastern Christians and de-Latinizing Eastern Catholic Liturgy
(73) Allowing lay Catholics to study the Bible on their own without a priest
(74) Transitioning Catholic colleges and universities from backwater parochialism to the mainstream of American life
(75) Recognizing that the essence of the Gospel is that we are “men (and women) for others”
Ok, te Joke is over. You can stop pretending that any of that is either true or has anything whatever to do with Vatican II.
You stretch a humour long and it’s not funny anymore. Keep it in mind.
“The great fruits:
(1) The Liturgy of Paul VI
(2) Mass facing the people
(3) The introduction of folk instruments into the liturgy
(4) The reordering of church interiors
(5) Altar girls
(6) Extraordinary ministers of the eucharist
(7) The relaxing of restrictions on receiving communion by Catholics and, in some cases, non-Catholics
(8) Ecumenism
(9) Recognizing that God’s grace works through non-Christian religions
(10) Freeing theology from excessive Church oversight
(11) Lay leadership
(12) Affirmation of religious liberty
(13) The restoration of the importance of national bishops conferences
(14) Married clergy in special circumstances and openness to wider acceptance of it in the future
(15) The discussion of women’s ordination
(16) Recognizing the separation of church and state
(17) Not imposing our beliefs on others through political coercion
(18) Lifting of the excommunications on the Orthodox
(19) Interreligious services, especially with Protestants and Eastern religions
(20) Doctrinal agreements with the Lutherans on Justification and the Anglicans on almost all theological issues
(21) Realizing Catholicism is not only a white man’s religion
(22) Lay theologians
(23) The new rite of exorcism – and the new rites for virtually all the Church’s rituals
(24) Baptism and other sacraments moved within the great Eucharistic celebration and gathering of the community
(25) Revival of the meal-aspect of the Liturgy of the Eucharist
(26) Restoration of the permanent diaconate”
Wow, someone went back for an extra glass of Kool-Aid!
More manifest proof that exposure to the Novus Ordo rots the brain.
Barbara, what else do the voices in your head tell you???
Father Z., Salve Maria! Does the priest need to know latin (=to understand what he is reading) to celebrate the Extraordinary form? If he just pronounces the words correctly, is it enough?
Fruits of Vatican II? If I’m not mistaken our Holy Father has a different interpretation – something like deformations if I recall correctly. At any rate the statistics showing a decline in mass attendance, belief in the Eucharist and number of religious holding to their vows speak for themselves. If it’s a new springtime, I’d surely hate to see what winter would be like?
Barbara, just wondering, are you at least 55? Your brand of Catholicism doesn’t square with people any younger. And frankly, your version of Catholicism will die with the aging hippies who started it.
As to particulars – 10 at a time:
1) The Liturgy of Paul VI: Fair enough. But there’s nothing wrong with the venerable Rite either.
2) Mass facing the people: Not called for at V2; this directly led to the crisis in vocations and lack of belief in the Real Presence.
3) The introduction of folk instruments into the liturgy: insuring the datedness of the liturgy. Coming from a relatively young fan of folk music (I’m 39), hippie music stopped being hip about 30 years ago. Gregorian chant will be around long after the last Peter, Paul, and Mary album has fallen into oblivion.
4) The reordering of church interiors: From the worship of Almighty God to a gathering of mere men. What a waste of time.
5) Altar girls: giving them false hopes for being priestesses. That is abuse, pure and simple.
6) Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist: Insuring more sacrileges of the Eucharist.
7) The relaxing of restrictions on receiving communion by Catholics and, in some cases, non-Catholics: Read what St. Paul had to say about those who do not discern the Body of the Lord in the Eucharist (1Cor 11:29). Why do we hate non-Catholics who do not believe in the Real Presence so as to allow them to perform sacrilegious Communions?
8) Ecumenism: Ecumenism properly understood is good: let’s build on what we have in common. But the goal is always and must be their conversion. We had the truth and they (or their ideological forebears) broke away. God wants “all people to be saved and come to the truth” (1Tim 2:4). That means protestants (like myself, who was once protestant) have to repudiate our errors. We cannot follow our Lord if we chose what we want to believe.
9) Recognizing that God’s grace works through non-Christian religions: Again properly understood. That God can work through non-Christian religions in a material way, concedo. That one can be saved without submitting to the Rule of the Cross, not true. Jesus Christ is true God, true Man, and died for our Redemption. One cannot deny that and be saved. Kindly read the Athanasian Creed, which we are bound to believe as Catholics.
10) Freeing theology from excessive Church oversight: Isn’t that just another way of saying believing whatever the hell we feel like? What did Our Lord say about shifting sands of doctrine?
The problem with Barbara’s lists — whether intended to be funny or not (by now it’s hard to tell) — is the implicit assumption that prior to the Second Vatican Council the Church consisted of unschooled, superstitious, anti-scientific, Rome-centered, uncharitable and retrograde folk whose crabbed religious life was spent in incense-filled mock-gothic buildings, rattling their rosaries, listening to Father muttering in a language no one could understand. It’s as if the Church’s worldwide network of parishes, missions, hospitals, schools, colleges, orphanages, clinics, support groups and guilds didn’t exist until Vatican II rolled around. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Woods should be required reading by everyone who presumes to comment about pre- and post-Vatican II Church history: http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/0895260387.
It’s good to see the enforcement of Church law, and unfortunately it needed said response to begin to obtain what should be provided anyway.
Barbara, please show us how what you call fruits have resulted in a holier people. The majority of Catholics do not attend Mass at all and do not even believe in the Real Presence.
11) Lay leadership: Should the flock tell their shepherds where to go? No well-ordered society functions that way.
12) Affirmation of religious liberty: de facto, that’s tolerable. De jure, and the Church loses its authority to stop abortion, euthanasia, Nazi-like experimentation on fetuses, etc. That’s an important distinction to be made: religious liberty de facto, which the Church has never condemned, and de jure, which She has justly condemned.
13) The restoration of the importance of national bishops conferences: National bishops conferences have ZERO jurisdiction. A diocesan bishop has every right to implement whatever National Conference decisions he feels like. Rome’s directives, however, carry the obligation of obedience.
14) Married clergy in special circumstances and openness to wider acceptance of it in the future: The third highest divorce rate by profession (after cops and Hollywood actors) are protestant ministers. Why do we want that for our Church?
15) The discussion of women’s ordination: We might as well discuss baptizing with Kool-Aid or having Big Macs and Coke for Eucharist. Wrong matter, invalid sacrament. No amount of whining can change that.
16) Recognizing the separation of church and state: Read what I said about religious liberty.
17) Not imposing our beliefs on others through political coercion: Whatever aberrations have occurred throughout the centuries, this has always been the teaching of the Church for 2000 years. This is different than expecting Catholics to uphold Catholic doctrine as I’m sure you can understand. Maybe I give you too much credit.
18) Lifting of the excommunications on the Orthodox: Praise be to God. Praise be to God also for the lifting of the excommunications of the 4 SSPX bishops. No wait…
19) Interreligious services, especially with Protestants and Eastern religions: And now Catholics by and large haven’t the foggiest idea what teh Church teaches anymore. What a wonderful development: confusion!
20) Doctrinal agreements with the Lutherans on Justification and the Anglicans on almost all theological issues: Confirming them in error: a mortal sin against faith
I’ve always wondered what alias Sr. Joan Chittister uses when she participates in the blogosphere – now we know!
Perhaps Sister will proceed to enlighten us why her list of “Vatican II’s Greatest Hits” – other than nos. 18 and 26 – are “good fruits” for the Church and the salvation of souls, as opposed to simply being her preferences…
Rock on, Joanie!
I really do suspect that “Barbara” is a troll, y’all. In which case, I’ll echo the words of an old and wise friend of mine:
Don’t feed the trolls.
Starve them of attention, and they’ll go away. Or Fr. Z. will run them over with a virtual Veyron. Whatever works… but feed them not!
[“Barbara” is what we call a “sock puppet” for a person who posts here under another name. That annoys me a lot and, if there is any further mischief, I will lock him out. Have a nice day everyone!]
Rosales is pushing 77, time to send him to emeritus land.
21) Realizing Catholicism is not only a white man’s religion: Only ignorance of a grave or willful nature can explain this comment. It never was a “white man’s religion”. We have an hispanic race today because the Church embraced the natives in America so warmly.
22) Lay theologians: This was common long before the Second Vatican Council, though. Do the names Maritain and von Hildebrand ring a bell? Again, this comment must come from deep or willful ignorance.
23) The new rite of exorcism: I’ll stop there. Rome’s leading exorcist said they are completely ineffective. So that’s a good thing?
24) Baptism and other sacraments moved within the great Eucharistic celebration and gathering of the community: First of all, the sacraments have always been public events, so there’s no need to move them to Holy Mass. Second of all, what does the Community have to do with it? Do you even know what a sacrament is?
25) Revival of the meal-aspect of the Liturgy of the Eucharist: at the expense of the essential sacrificial and sacramental aspects. It is a communal Meal: the Great Banquet of Heaven, the Bread of Angels, true. But to focus exclusively on this aspect is to invert the order of things. Without availing of the Sacrifice represented to us at Mass and the Sacrament of Our Lord’s Body and Blood, it don’t mean a thing.
26) Restoration of the permanent diaconate: I’m all for this; but why stop there. I’m for also reinstating permanent minor Orders, such as they have in the Eastern Church? Then we wouldn’t need laity in the sacristy, would we?
27) Communion in the hand: which Bl. Mother Theresa of Calcutta said is the greatest evil in the world today – for good reason. From a previous post on this website:
Waiting in line and putting out my hand is no different from a million different activities that I do daily. I wait in line and put my hand out for movie tickets, to get change, airline tickets, etc. In contrast, there is no time ever that I kneel down, open my mouth and someone “feeds” me. Body instructs spirit. My body is telling me that something is happening here that is like nothing else in my life. The fact I am “fed” reminds me of my true helplessness and the fact that God Himself is stooping down to feed me! The fact that I am kneeling tells me that God and I are not equals, He is greater than I. The fact that I have to wait teaches me that I do not command God; I wait on Him.
28) Communion under both kinds: Whatever. Jesus is fully present in both, so, Bob’s your uncle as they say in England.
29) Lay readers at Mass – especially women: Why especially women??? That’s a pretty bigoted comment, don’t you think?
30) Returning religious orders to their original charisms: In Latin, this notion would be taurum stercum. St. Ignatius founded an Order to be shock troops of obedience to the Pope; no Order has been more openly defiant of the Holy See in the last 50 years than our beloved Jesuits. The Dominicans were virulent against heresy under St. Dominic. Dissident Dominican theologians have led the way in undermining orthodoxy. Have you ever read the Rule of the Sisters St. Joseph? Neither have they.
I think people are holier when they are happy rather than self-hating and when they are serving the poor rather than focussing on their own sanctity. That’s why I applaud the great fruits of the Council!
(76) Recovering a sense of religion as happy, fun, and liberating rather than sad, dour, and laborious
(77) Accepting the prayers of people in other faiths as directed towards God rather than demons
(78) Affirming or at least confidently hoping for universal salvation
(79) Looking to the work the Church has to do in this life rather than putting all our focus on a dubious afterlife
(80) Never speaking again of the Devil, demons, and other superstitions of medievalism
(81) Knowing that GOD IS LOVE
(82) Dismissing the Catholic League of Decency and other anti-free expression groups as low brow
(83) Welcoming those from all faiths and none to teach in Religious Studies Departments at Catholic Universities because academic standards should replace confessional tests in any educational institution worthy of the name
(84) Setting aside the Cult of the Virgin and Saints as unbiblical
(85) Growing in understanding that the fruits of Vatican II represent both an necessary updating and modernization of the Church and a return to the apostolic past covered over by centuries of accretions, particularly in the liturgy
(86) Turning theology departments in religious studies departments and reorganizing academic departments in Catholic colleges to properly reflect secular standards rather than obscurantist religious ones
(87) Finally validating the theological genius of formerly persecuted thinkers like Karl Rahner, Teilard de Chardin, Matthew Fox, and Hans Kung
(88) Sharing our feelings
(89) Understanding that what it means for us to be Church is that we are all part of the People of God
(90) Getting rid of the papal tiara and all other symbols of and Church pretensions to earthly rule and political ambitions
(91) Eliminating harsh penances because God is merciful
(92) Collegiality
(93) Making people feel accepted
(94) Removing the Tabernacle to a side altar or a special prayer chapel because the Mass is not about the reserved sacrament but the gathering community
(95) Demolishing side-altars as relics of the past
(96) Celebrating the piano for its power to inspire prayerful reflection
(97) The American Catholic Bishops’ Zero Tolerance Guidelines for handling allegations of sexual abuse by priests
(98) Bowing to the altar rather than genuflecting to the Tabernacle during the liturgy of the Eucharist
(99) Understanding the proper role of dissent in the Church and forming our own consciences
(100) The New Mass of Paul VI – And the Restoration of the Permanent Diaconate!
Barbara,
Thank you for this list. You have just saved us the trouble of having to compile a new syllabus of errors. With the exception of a few items your list is a fine compilation of things done in the “spirit” of Vatican II that goes against the Holy Spirit inspired Second Vatican Council.
Again, thank you.
Pax et Bonum
Teeth! Glorious! Thank you, Holy Father and Cardinal Castrillon. (Don’t you imagine that the Holy Father is aware of the correction of a Cardinal Ordinary by a Cardinal Curial Commission President?)
I am a product of Vatican II, but I do not agree with the list as fruits of this council alone. And some of them are inaccurate. I don’t know if the lies were mixed with the truths intentionally or by ignorance. But I guess the readers are discerning enough. I’ll continue where dobbs left off because, Trolls may confuse others.
FYI, here’s a list of 86 saints canonised by JPII. They lived before VatII though. The VatII saints have just died this decade e.g. JPII, Mother Teresa and may still be alive like some of you here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_saints_canonised_by_Pope_John_Paul_II
Re: 84) Setting aside the Cult of the Virgin and Saints as unbiblical. It was neither set aside nor unbiblical. In fact, our Lady was given the titles of Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix by the Ecumenical Council.
Re: 98) Bowing to the altar rather than genuflecting to the Tabernacle during the liturgy of the Eucharist.
During the Mass yes. After the Mass no.
Re: 87) Finally validating the theological genius of formerly persecuted thinkers like Karl Rahner, Teilard de Chardin, Matthew Fox, and Hans Kung. Kung no. De Chardin yes. Rahner so-so. Fox case by case.
Re: 81) Knowing that GOD IS LOVE. Excellent treatise on the Love of God by St. Francis de Sales predating VatII.
Re: 80) Never speaking again of the Devil, demons, and other superstitions of medievalism. This makes me wonder about Barbara. I think it was Chesterton who wrote that the most destructive lie about the devil is his non-existence.
Re: 83) Welcoming those from all faiths and none to teach in Religious Studies Departments at Catholic Universities because academic standards should replace confessional tests in any educational institution worthy of the name. Sounds like an oxymoron – contracdiction in terms.
I’ll stop here but there are a lot more to correct. Let’s all plan to stand for life with Our Lady this May.
http://divine-ripples.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html#7605632313653357323
God bless,
Rick
Pope John Paul II was fluent in over a dozen languages, but he offered mass in over 60 languages.
If he was required to be fluent in all those languages to celebrate mass in all those languages, then Pope John Paul II was guilty of gross disobedience to the rubrics.
Surely the opponents of the Traditional Latin Mass do not claim Pope John Paul II committed some kind of error or sin in celebrating masses in a language in which he was not fluent?!?
#76 – Perhaps there is a middle ground here, the joy of the saints, who were not dour. Dourness is not a sign of sanctity.
#77 – If a Muslim says that he will pray to Allah for me, am I to refuse him or dissuade him from doing so?
#78 – Dare we hope that all men be saved? Hope is a virtue, not a certain knowledge. I certainly hope that all are saved, since that is what the Father desires.
#79 – Again, perhaps there is a balance by extending the charity of the afterlife into this life.
#80 – Yes we are engaged in spiritual battle against the world, the flesh and the devil. That must not be forgotten! But neither should we exaggerate their power or influence.
#81 – God is Love. I have a sure knowledge that He is. The Scriptures teach this. Be careful of mocking what is true, even if it is imperfectly understood by others.
#82 – No argument from me here.
#83 – I suppose it depends on the courses they teach. I certainly would not want a Muslim or a Buddhist teaching me about Catholicism. But about their own religious systems? I would think that even the most ardent missionary would find benefit in that.
#84 – No argument from me here. I do think, however, that it is appropriate to look at popular expressions of these cults to ensure that they are in keeping with a proper, balanced devotion to the Mother of GOd and the saints.
#85 – That depends. Yes there were accretions. Yes some of those can certainly be eliminated without endangering the liturgy. As to restoring early Christian practice, I think the restoration of the Catechumenate is one such example of a worthy restoration, however it may falter in practice.
#86 – I absolutely agree with the first part of your statement here. As to the second, I think it possible to ensure a proper education that meets or exceeds secular (not secularist) standards while maintaining a strong sense of religious identity.
#87 – Karl Rahner has some insight about certain things, but as to the rest, a waste of perfectly good trees.
#88 – I see nothing wrong with sharing feelings. I think it wrong to reduce the faith to such an activity, however.
#89 – Yes – the People of God is a perfectly legitimate Biblical concept. It does not equate with the “People’s Church,” however…
#90 – Not sure why one would be particularly attached to the Tiara…it looks like a scud missle…perhaps one pointed at the modernists? ;-)
#91 – “Harsh” penances? Are we talking to the level of Irish penitentials or one Rosary as opposed to three Hail Mary’s…
#92 – Collegiality as opposed to what, papal monarchicalism? Perhaps primacy and collegiality can coexist without going to the extremes of conciliarism or ultramontanism…
#93 – Is there anything wrong with helping others feel accepted? God loves us as we are, while loving us too much to let us stay that way. Why mock the acceptance of people?
#94 – No argument here.
#95 – No argument here.
#96 – No argument here (and I speak as a pianist).
#97 – Do you disagree with “Zero Tolerance”?!? I share the view of Zero Tolerance. One strike, and you are O-U-T.
#98 – I bow to the Altar Table all the time, as do our faithful. Bowing is a perfectly legitimate liturgical action. Of course, I also perform prostrations regularly, especially during the Great Fast of Lent. Did several tonight at the Liturgy of the Presanctified.
#99 – No disagreement here. The apostles speak with the authority of Christ. He who hears them, hears Him.
#100 – No argument here about the usually anemic N.O. Profound disagreement about the benefits of the Permanent Diaconate, when it is properly exercised. (No presidential function…) Read the Early Church fathers. Read Ignatius of Antioch. Read the Book of Acts.
There was a time when I believed that trolls were hideous creatures who lived under the foot bridge and ate little children who tried to cross. Something I once heard in a bedtime story.
But seriously, folks, just imagine. Getting a response from the Holy See, both this quickly and with such resolution, would have been unimaginable just five years ago. Now that’s what I call a “new springtime” for the Church.
Laudetur Iesus Christus! Praised be Jesus Christ!
Another statement from Rome to be ignored by the diocese of Fresno, Ca.
“I am concerned about where this backwards movement on the liturgy is headed. What about the young? I feel we are throwing away all the great fruits of Vatican II.
Comment by Barbara ”
Barbara what are these great fruits?
Empty Churches
Liturgical Chaos
Abuses
etc….
I am from the Philippines and I am sad by the state of the Church here. Our leadership has failed us many times when it comes to devotion and liturgy. This is sad because Filipinos are devout unlike other Catholics in other countries. I think this is the only catholic country where Catholic principles are embedded in the constition.
“The Archidocese of Manila’s guidelines seem to have been revised:
http://www.rcam.org/liturgical_news/clarifications_on_summorum_pontificum.htm
Comment by J. Wong — 3 April 2009 @ 4:08 pm ”
Nope J. Wong, what you saw on the link you gave was the older guidelines. That was the old guidelines. The newest was the most radical and the most restrictive. It was published just a day that the excommunications of the SSPX Bishops were lifted. It stayed on the website for a couple of days I think but was taken away afterward.
I can only speak for the most Germans I know: No one really says “extradordinary form” or even “extraordinary form of the Roman Rite”. It’s nothing more than a artificial ad hoc-invention of the Holy Father. All traditional Catholics I know simply say “Old Mass” or “Tridentine Mass”, although they know that the Tridentine Mass wasn’t invented at the Tridentine Council.
Comment by German
I like the phrase “Gregorian Rite”.
Some of the commenters here must not understand parody. Please DO NOT reply to these lists. They are meant to be Humerous not serious. What makes them humorous is that they somewhat reflect actions and changes that many here consider deformations.
I would fall off my rocker if we could go back to ’54. I have been following the Holy Week compendium over at New Liturgical Movement and while I think that there were some minor improvements in 55, such as moving Holy Thursday back to the evening, there was a lot of essential elements dropped or significantly. One I can’t understand is why the procession of Palm Sunday is now different than the procession on Candlemas.
In the words of my favorite preist whose order will remain anonymous, 62 was a butcher job. it sprung from Bugnini’s head like Athena.
It was explained to me that Holy week, until 1955, had remained essentially the same since the year 700. Trent just codified it. So that would mean Holy week had been the same for 1300 years and it gets radically altered in 1955, 1960, 1962, 1965, 1967 and so on to what we have now.
It will take the older “modern” experimenters to die off and the younger generation will return us to tradition. The great experiment will slowly disappear.
Barbara,
I congratulate you on your recognition of the “great fruits” of Vat II.
On the other hand, I think you should be smart enough to realize that most of what you listed is little else than warmed over Liberal Protestantism.
So my question is: Do you want to be Catholic or Protestant? If you decide on the former, it would be beneficial for you to stop deluding yourself. That would begin to enable you to stop confusing the intellectual oatmeal of Liberalism with the Essence of the Catholic Church.
“No one really says ‘Tridentine’ anymore.”
Right!
It’s the Traditional Latin Mass.
No one really says “extrodinary” either. It waters it down and puts it on an even par with the NO Mass which it is not.
Barbara,
I have been going through your list, and I have decided that you are actually writing satire. No Catholic can be that vapid.
BTW, if you like piano (as I do), I recommend CD’s of the works of Mozart. Beethoven (also his Sonatas), Tchaikovsky, Chopin, et al. If you like jazz, there are, among others, Thelonious Monk, George Shearing, Ahmad Jamal, Dave Brubeck and Oscar Peterson.
If you don’t like CD’s, you might want to go to a concert or find a really good piano bar.
(97) The American Catholic Bishops’ Zero Tolerance Guidelines for handling allegations of sexual abuse by priests
(98) Bowing to the altar rather than genuflecting to the Tabernacle during the liturgy of the Eucharist
(99) Understanding the proper role of dissent in the Church and forming our own consciences
(100) The New Mass of Paul VI – And the Restoration of the Permanent Diaconate!
Comment by Barbara —
Oops, I forgot Oscar Peterson, who was, like Brubeck, a Catholic.
Barbara must have been Sr. Mary Handlebar’s name prior to taking vows
I was unaware of the restrictions that Cardinal Rosales had placed on the celebration of the EF Mass, since I don’t live in the Archdiocese of Manila. But those restrictions don’t appear on the Archdiocese’s website now: http://www.rcam.org/liturgical_news/clarifications_on_summorum_pontificum.htm
I have known Cardinal Rosales for nearly thirty years, when I made a retreat under him. He was then a young auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Manila, which has since been divided up into a number of smaller dioceses. He is a man for whom the Mass, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the Word of God are at the heart of his life. He spends an hour in adoration every day and lives simply. He has a particular love for persons with mental disabilities and a remarkable memory for names. He has time for priests and welcomes them in his home.
It would seem that initially he was incorrect in his interpretation of Summorum Pontificum. But if every bishop and priest was as genuinely holy as Cardinal Rosales is the Church would be transformed.
And he got some ‘stick’ from one or two journalists a couple of years ago when he issued very clear guidelines on proper attire in church: http://www.rcam.org/liturgical_news/proper_attire.htm
It’s good to know that Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos has intervened on behalf of the faithful attached to the EF in the Philippines. I hope that he will do the same for Singapore and other places where the Ordinary is “unduly restrictive”.
By-the-by, I quite tickled with the lists produced by “Barbara”: if it wasn’t a parody, then it should have been!
Now why is that Mahony doesn’t get a corrective letter like that? Maybe he has but continues to ignore it?
Again, the pattern of Dos and Don’ts:
Those prelates who DON’T have friends in high places get DO get told off.
Those who DO have friends in high places, DON’T.
I say “Tridentine Mass.” Calling it the “Traditional Latin Mass” is somewhat erroneous because the Novus Ordo ( after forty years of gross imposition ) is everywhere and hardly anyone knows what the “Tridentine Mass” is, so in effect the Novus Ordo has become the **traditional** Mass. I pray the Tridentine Mass will become commonplace again so that it can **rightfully** be called the “Traditional Latin Mass” or “Tridentine Mass.”
As far as the Novus Ordo is concerned, why isn’t it called the Missa Vulgata or the Vulgar ( Common ) Mass–since it’s such an ideal for it to be said in the “vernacular?” Let’s not be like he heathens who are so intent on forcing ideas by forcing words and terms ( political correctness ) on people that we end up doing it to ourselves.
I second Fr. Coyle’s personal assessment of Cardinal Rosales. I do not know him personally but observing him from a distance, he seems to be a genuine holy priest, a priest’s priest. Could it be his liturgical assistants at the Archdiocese of Manila “deceived” him into signing that restriction? I hope that is the case.
Fr. Z’s blog is one of the most important locations for traditional Catholic news on the internet. While good humor is certainly compatible with seriousness, Barbara’s childish style of mockery is sophomoric and drags the website down a notch in a way I don’t think any of us can support. Please resist the temptation to feed this troll by responding either positively or negatively to his or her annoying antics. Let’s try to be grown ups here and keep standards high on this award winning site. [The only problem with this is that you and “Barbara” are both posting from the same IP address. So… either “Barbara” is sneaking in and using your computer when you aren’t looking or “Barbara” is your sock puppet. I don’t like that very much.]
My Parish Priest, though I seek to go elsewhere, preached last Saturday:
Pope in error; married clergy; greater role for both diaconate and laity; relaxation upon who can administer sacraments; Vatican II as yet unfullfilled; he has previously preached “tables” and “meals” to new communicants. And a great deal more garbage. My [diocesan] confessor suggested I attend the parish church as a penance. At first he thought I was referring to the edict, of the E&W Bishops’ Conference, which suggests I can attend Protestant churches to fullfil my ‘Duties’.
The congregation treat the church as a meeting room, such is the level of the noise, both before and after Mass and both PP and deacon contribute to the same by parading around talking to people. What about ‘preparation’ by the celebrant prior to Mass?
Rev.d and Dear Fr. Zuhlsdorf,
I was very pleased, indeed, to see this when it came out.
I have one question, though, regarding the term, ‘reasonabl[e] competen[ce]’: do you know or have to hand the exact term in the orignial, which Card. Castrillon used?
SP requires that a priest be idoneus, and Cardinal Egan (if memory serves), an eminent canonist, has publicly stated that idoneus means “able to pronounce the words correctly”.
‘reasonable competence’ may be something more than the ability to pronounce the words correctly – and as I write this, I realize that ‘correctly’ could be interpreted more or less strictly, itself, a sliding scale that goes from intelligibly to Verdi-esque romanitas.
I think ‘intelligibly’ is closer to what is required than anything else, but a clarification, una volta per tutte, were in order.
[Well, that’s a very nice thought. The document says “idoneus“, which is “suitable/qualified/capable”. In the Church’s we do not impose burdens that the law doesn’t express. When talking about the qualifications or capability of a priest, the document is is not indicating expertise. Idoneus expresses a minimum qualification. That is why Card. Egan, who understands how to interpret law, said what he said.]
YOS,
C.
p.s.
a number of the commenters on this thread strike me as the kind of people who would frown at a hot fudge sundae.
Great Post !
Cardinal Castrillón said the papal decree was “part of the universal law of the Church” and could not be limited by the “particular law” of a diocesan bishop.
I can think of a bishop or two that Cardinal Castrillón might want to talk to regarding Summorum Pontificum and why “There is simply no legitimate reason why this [Tridentine] Mass cannot and should not be celebrated in any church or chapel of your archdiocese,”.
Viva il Papa ; ad multos annos !
St. Barbara, Pray for us (In light of Barbara’s comments above)!
The life of St. Barbara is a vivid reminder that there can be much anger in our world and in our lives. Being in touch with God’s presence in a very special way can do much toward relieving ourselves of our tendency to allow anger to control us. We should pray often against a sudden and unprovided death; and, above all, that we may be strengthened by the Holy Viaticum (Last Sacraments) against the dangers of our last hour.
I believe that it is apropos that St. Barbara is the
Patron U.S. Army Field Artillery, as we are the Church Millitant, marching toward our heavenly goal !
Reference from my previous post: St. Barbara
Great letter by His Eminence. I’m glad someone’s minding the store.
BTW, I’ve been saying the “Tridentine Mass” for eleven years now. I tried switching to “extraordinary form” and had too many questions. So, in the bulletin, on the phone, and on the sign outside the parish church, it says, “Tridentine Mass,” and everyone knows what that means.
Im from the Philippines though not from the Archdiocese of Manila. The restrictive guidelines might have been made under the influence of Fr. Anscar Chupungco, OSB, executive secretary of the Commission on Liturgy of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines and a great promoter of inculturation and liturgical dance.
RBrown: I doubt if Barb was being satirical. Let me put some context and perspective outside the US.
Re: (97) The American Catholic Bishops’ Zero Tolerance Guidelines for handling allegations of sexual abuse by priests. It is not just the guidelines but the acknowledgment of the crime, the compensation of the victims, and the repentance. Do you honestly think that prior to Vatican 2, the ecclesiastical culture would have permitted such a move? Even now in Catholic countries, clerical lapses are practically swept under the rug because the secular courts and media there are sympathetic to the Church. Consider if your son or daughter was the one raped or sodomized.
Re: (98) Bowing to the altar rather than genuflecting to the Tabernacle during the liturgy of the Eucharist. Note that it is “during” the liturgy of the Eucharist. That is so because the focus is on the sacrifice the is going on at the moment. In other places the tabernacle is placed in a side chapel away from the main altar to ensure this focus.
Re: (99) Understanding the proper role of dissent in the Church and forming our own consciences. The declaration of the primacy of conscience as the place where people will be ultimately judged by God is not a heresy. The key is in forming it right by prayer, research and counsel.
Re: (100) The New Mass of Paul VI – And the Restoration of the Permanent Diaconate! Pastoral conditions in Catholic countries benefit from the services of permanent deacons who are able to administer certain sacraments and take the load off the priests who already celebrate 8 Masses in their Churches on Sunday.
“Another statement from Rome to be ignored by the diocese of Fresno, Ca.”
Add the diocese of San Bernardino, CA as well.
I simply say “Traditional Mass”
I figure that others should understand the words we use.
Barbara, if you really think this: “rather than putting all our focus on a dubious afterlife”, then honey, you’re not even a Christian. Good grief, woman!
And then this: “Recovering a sense of religion as happy, fun, and liberating rather than sad, dour, and laborious.” Believing in God, and knowing God sent his son to save the world, gives me a sense of JOY. I’d like to pay a little tribute here to a (now deceased) nun, Sister Mary. She was my husband’s great aunt. The love she had for Jesus made her face radiate with joy every time I saw her. She’s never going to be canonized, but I often think that Sister Mary may be one of those “anonymous” Saints, who surely populate heaven. Sister Mary wore a habit, became a nun before Vat II, yet she was never sad, dour or felt put upon.
“There is a joy which is not given to the ungodly, but to those who love Thee for Thine own sake, whose joy Thou Thyself art. And this is the happy life, to rejoice to Thee, of Thee, for Thee; this it is, and there is no other.”- St. Augustine
Hey ! nicknack paddy wack / barbara, did you vote for B.O.?
Father Z: “Barbara” is what we call a “sock puppet”
Previously, I’d just scanned this thread, saw Barbara’s list of 100 “fruits of Vatican”, and though it a magnus opum of satire, a work worthy of sincere admiration.
My word, are you implying that “she” is serious, actually thinks these are all good fruits?
Come on Barbara you forgot the greeters. I just can’t go to mass (opps, service) without being greeted!
Father, I was not only agreeing with Card. Egan, but offering the most generous possible interpretation of ‘correct’.
C.
Henry: No… I am not making any value judgment about the lists.
“Sock puppet” is a term used for a separate online identity a person creates to set something up and to which he later responds with his other identity. I don’t want that sort of game on my blog regardless of whether I like the positions expressed or not.
Re: (97) The American Catholic Bishops’ Zero Tolerance Guidelines for handling allegations of sexual abuse by priests. It is not just the guidelines but the acknowledgment of the crime, the compensation of the victims, and the repentance. Do you honestly think that prior to Vatican 2, the ecclesiastical culture would have permitted such a move? Even now in Catholic countries, clerical lapses are practically swept under the rug because the secular courts and media there are sympathetic to the Church. Consider if your son or daughter was the one raped or sodomized.
You make several mistakes. Time only permits me to list a few.
1. The Zero Tolerance Policy goes from one extreme to another. The bishops didn’t need an official policy (which is little else than a PR strategy), but merely common sense. If a priest is involved in scandal with altar boys (or for that matter, any homosexual scandal), he should have been immediately removed from ministry. It was the Everest of stupidity for bishops to move these priests to another parish, or, as happened to one priest, to a university apostolate.
2. The problem with most of the priests involved in the scandals is that they were not trained to live alone. Before the seminaries fell apart, there were structures set up to teach the habit of celibacy, e.g., PF’s were forbidden, and no one was allowed in the room of another seminarian.
In the past 35 years not only did seminaries not form young men to be celibate, there was often pressure for them to become homosexuals. (I have first hand knowledge of this.)
3. Before the Church fell apart, these problems were usually dealt with very quickly. A priest might be reduced to sacerdos simplex–he could say mass but administer none of the other Sacraments. Or he could be ordered to a life of prayer and penance away from everyone (cf. the film True Confessions).
4. BTW, about 30 years ago when I was living in Wichita, the asst pastor at our parish was arrested one Sat even for solicitation of a male police officer. The very good bishop (Maloney by name) moved quickly. The priest was not in the parish the next day and was out of the diocese in a few days, sent to a clinic in New Mexico that dealt with such situations.
The priest was not allowed to return to Wichita. He died of AIDS a few years later.
5. Finally, a question: In which Catholic countries have you lived?
Re: (98) Bowing to the altar rather than genuflecting to the Tabernacle during the liturgy of the Eucharist. Note that it is “during” the liturgy of the Eucharist. That is so because the focus is on the sacrifice the is going on at the moment. In other places the tabernacle is placed in a side chapel away from the main altar to ensure this focus.
The problem there is that versus populum celebration creates confusion. Whether a priest bows or genuflects to the altar, he still is stuck saying mass with his back to the tabernacle. The easy solution is ad orientem celebration.
Re: (99) Understanding the proper role of dissent in the Church and forming our own consciences. The declaration of the primacy of conscience as the place where people will be ultimately judged by God is not a heresy. The key is in forming it right by prayer, research and counsel.
Not exactly. The key in forming the conscience is the principle of subsidiarity, i.e., that the doctrine of the Church is the final arbiter in formation of conscience.
We are all obligated morally to follow our conscience, but we are also obligated to see that it is formed correctly. Although invincible ignorance is a certainly a possibility in a malformed conscience, it cannot be assumed.
BTW, I had a graduate course at the Angelicum entitled “Synderesis and Conscience”.
Re: (100) The New Mass of Paul VI – And the Restoration of the Permanent Diaconate! Pastoral conditions in Catholic countries benefit from the services of permanent deacons who are able to administer certain sacraments and take the load off the priests who already celebrate 8 Masses in their Churches on Sunday.
Comment by Ricky Vines
I have no problem with the restoration of the permanent diaconate, but such restoration has been a disaster. I think three principles should be followed:
1. Permanent deacons should not have a secular profession. For example, they should be a parish DRE or a prof of Church history.
2. Permanent deacons should be required to wear clerical clothes (with a modified collar).
3. Permanent deacons should be obligated to the complete Divine Office.
What has happened, unfortunately, is that the permanent diaconate has become little else than another lay ministry.
You’re right about helping priests during the shortage. The problem is that there was no shortage before the destruction of Catholic life after the Council.
I would also add that I think all permanent deacons should receive the same education as transitional deacons.
I have a question for those who are knowledgable about Canon Law.
What about those who would reply that ‘the ultimate interpretation of Canon is left up to the local Bishop, who is free to interpret it in the way that he sees best fits with his diocese’?
While this might be true, I don’t think “interpretation” is the same as what we have seen in these “conditions” set by various dioceses. Some of these conditions completely disregarded the MP and created difficult restrictions. What really is ‘interpretation’?
“The restrictive guidelines might have been made under the influence of Fr. Anscar Chupungco, OSB, executive secretary of the Commission on Liturgy of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines and a great promoter of inculturation and liturgical dance.”
I was able to speak to two liturgists in the Philippines about the Clarifications,\
and they both told me that Fr. Anscar Chupungco OSB — for all his radicalism — could
not have crafted so clumsy and offensive a set of Guidelines.
We do have a name in mind, and he is indeed a priest in the Archdiocese of Manila.
This is the reason why my latest comments on Rorate Caeli and the Una Voce statement
both refrain from attributing the Guidelines directly to Cardinal Rosales himself.
I have met Cardinal Rosales a couple of times and I have no doubts about his
personal kindness and for his enormous love for the poor, but I’d like to point
out that the Indult Mass was forbidden in his name in the Archdiocese of Manila
in 2005 and again in 2006.
Lauren,
The authority of the pope is supreme, so he is the ultimate interpreter. If someone objects to the way a bishop has interpreted law, it is possible to appeal to Roman courts.
I have met Cardinal Rosales a couple of times and I have no doubts about his personal kindness and for his enormous love for the poor, but I’d like to point out that the Indult Mass was forbidden in his name in the Archdiocese of Manila in 2005 and again in 2006.
Comment by Carlos Palad
Well, if he’s kind and loves the poor, then he must be OK, right?
BTW, he is a year and half past retirement age.
Lauren, in canon law, “interpretation,” that is determining what the law truly means, is primarily the task of the legislator. In this case, the laws contained in Summorum pontificum are to be interpretted by the Supreme Legislator, the Pope, who generally does this through the Roman Curia – specifically the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts.
The application of the law is usually left to the local church, primarily the bishop. If he wants a derogation from the universal law, he can ask for one from the Supreme Legislator (for example, the universal law requires that the diocesan tribunal be headed by a priest with a canon law degree, but the bishop wants to appoint a priest without a degree, but with much experience in the field. He can appeal for an indult, which is generally granted if there is a good reason). If the local bishop applies the law in a way that does not seem consistent with the prevailing interpretation, then the Holy See can intervene, as it appears Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos has done, to ensure a proper application of the law.
“And he got some ‘stick’ from one or two journalists a couple of years ago when he issued very clear guidelines on proper attire in church:
http://www.rcam.org/liturgical_news/proper_attire.htm”
I agree that these are good guidelines, but sadly these are not enforced.
It is summertime in Manila and it is exposed legs and bodies
season once again, even in churches.
Tim Ferguson,
I agree with what you say. On the other hand, it has been my sad experience both in the Church and in secular employment that most in authority could care less what the law says.
RBrown: 5. Finally, a question: In which Catholic countries have you lived?
I’ve been in Central America, US, Asia and Europe. Are you familiar with the pastoral conditions in the third world? One dealt with epression from the right, atheism from the left and Protestants in the middle who are converting great numbers of Catholics and leading them to a personal experience of God. So, a consideration to bear in mind is making the liturgy meaningful. Kudos on the Angelicum studies. Only the creme de la creme get to go there. I went to two Pontifical Universities but never in Rome and to CUA but I never took a class under Charlie Curran.
RBrown wrote:
“I agree with what you say. On the other hand, it has been my sad experience both in the Church and in secular employment that most in authority could care less what the law says.”
)(
SO TRUE! The only thing is people have recourse to lawsuits in the secular world whereas Catholics to the Church have no recourse at all. Merely flipping a letter to someone is so laughable because there is never any teeth behind it. All these letters only become so much junk mail and goes right into the trash. Rome can’t or WON’T do anything about it.
Can anyone imagine if the Government handled the Civil Rights issues the way the Church handles things? People would still be drinking from separate fountains, sitting at the back of buses and maybe not even being able to vote.
I think one of the casualties of the Vatican II whether “erroneous” or “intentional” is that it made the Church more like Canterbury than keeping it like Rome. This is why the Church is so ineffectual today. The Church can generate as many letters and documents as She wants, but just merely depending on enforcement by benevolent choice is absurd.
This one thing about Catholic clergy, they think they are owed–entitled. Like the Holy Father having a Curia to worry about. Have the Swiss Guards escort them out. “Refuse to do what I ask, you’re done here.” Those prelates serve at the pleasure of the Pope, and not entitled to those jobs. Just like any job. Go to work and pull the same thing these Clerics do. You’ll see how long you last. Those in the Church should be treated the same way. I like the fact everyone in the Vatican now has to punch the clock.
This Manila bishop has nothing to fear whatsoever, and his reply obviously was less than admirable. There will be no resolution to this because Rome can’t ( or won’t ) do a thing about it. This why the Church is in the state She is in.
Fr. Z; or anyone who may know. Why should be stay away from using “Tridentine”. Is this referring to a entirely different mass compared to the Extraordinary Form?
Kimberly, there are some people that use the term “Tridentine” to “show” that it is only as old as the council of Trent, and so the newer form can be said to be more in tune with the use of Primitive Christianity. This is supposed to make people who like Tradition prefer the newer use of the Mass. It is also handy for addressing the “newer is always better” crowd with the opposite argument. 1970 is better than 1570, right? :-)
I don’t think there is a real problem with him using “Tridentine”, but last time Cardinal Castrillon said “Gregorian” was the proper term to describe the older form (which defuses the first argument). It would have been nice to stick to that term, but it is not obvious to me whether Tridentine in this context was first used by Cardinal Rosales, Cardinal Castrillon, or the reporter.
Hello Brian,
Barbara et. al, I really like this one:
“Realizing Catholicism is not only a white man’s religion”
LOL
Indeed. In 1962 there were nearly 50 million Catholics in Africa alone – many of them under the jurisdiction of one certain archbishop of the Holy Ghost Fathers.
I guess they didn’t get the (pre-conciliar) message. Or maybe they did?
And here I was getting agitated by “altar girls.” The “white man’s” crack sort of cast that out of mind, remarkably enough.
“Permanent deacons should not have a secular profession. For example, they should be a parish DRE or a prof of Church history.”
I was told once by a friend of mine that another bishop commented regarding a married priestly candidate’s profession:
“Carpentry is not the proper field for a priest.”
I recall from my reading of Sacred Scripture that both Our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Paul had trades, and in fact one was a carpenter and the other a tentmaker. Are we to disparage the trades in deference to more delicate or explicitly religious labor to support one’s family or oneself for married clergy?
Speaking as a deacon and as a working, corporate professional, I see no issue with doing both. I actually appreciate the opportunity to continue working at the altar of the marketplace, as St. John Chrysostom referred to it.
The Holy Spirit in action. I love being Catholic! Thanks for sharing.
RBrown said: “In the past 35 years not only did seminaries not form young men to be celibate, there was often pressure for them to become homosexuals. (I have first hand knowledge of this.)”
For the sake of the audience, let me share that I too have been in the seminary and religious life for 11 years but, I NEVER experienced any pressure to become homosexual. So, let’s not generalize for fairness sake.
Thank you Tim Ferguson and RBrown for replying to my question.
To be honest I don’t want to go back to those ‘hole in the wall’ Masses and even
more so in a place like the Philipines were they can hardly speak their own spanishh language and let alone Latin – those who want a return to that old pre Vatican II rite of
Mass do so and intend it to be a derisive issue. The Philipine bishops are correct
in attempting to restrict it. Cardinal Hoyos does not understand these local concerns
just as he didn’t know about those semitic ideas of bishop Richard Williamson.
@Jamie
Christ’s faithful (both priests and laity) have a right to the EF, no matter how DERISIVE you are about their linguistic abilities, or anything else.
Thank God for Summorum Pontificum!
Baronius says ‘manifest proof that exposure to the Novus Ordo rots the brain’.
That is certainly not the attitude the Pope sought to encourage in SP – thoug it is all too common in ‘traditionalist’ circles. It is a gratuitous insult to the other 99.9% of Catholics.