Get to it!
___ ORIGINAL Published on: Oct 16, 2015 @ 09:15
I have an ACTION ITEM for you. Perhaps other bloggers, in a spirit of collaboration, will pick this up.
You might consider going over to CRUX – again, in a spirit of cooperation! – to participate in a poll on their left side bar about the ordination of women.
–> HERE <–
As of this writing, it is on the front page, but you have to scroll down a bit and look on the left (where else) side.
As of this writing…
So, get to work! You might ask your friends to lend them a hand. After all, who doesn’t want a large sample for their poll?
UPDATE… 15 minutes after posting this
UPDATE 1607 GMT:
NO was up to 80.3 but it has slipped. I think the heretics and low-information types are waking up.
A bit of humor….
I noted in the comments section for that poll – who knew there were comments for these polls? – that some of the liberals don’t like the fact that you are voting.
For example:
Followed by…
Well done, Luke.
Which leads me to advertise some of my Z-Swag!
You were originally accused of being “Zed-Heads” by one of the libs either at Crux or at the Fishwrap (who can tell them apart?). We should merrily embrace the epithet.
Here are some spiffy mugs and car magnets, to celebrate your mind-numbed minion status:
CLICK to buy and to see more stuff!
UPDATE 2333 GMT:
GMT 0404 GMT:
From the comment at Crux.
Cristina – 1 hour ago [It is hard to deal with someone so poorly informed.]
I really find it abhorrent that the followers of Fr. Zuhlsdorf do his bidding with such unquestioning loyalty. [I wish!] This priest did not get the proper formation – something was obviously lacking in his RCIA formation and training [No, I wasnt asked to portray my life experience through macramé]. He lives and works as a total free agent, living thousands of miles and an ocean away from his bishop, having little to no communication with him, and most certainly not being supervised by ANY Catholic prelate. [Tell that to my bishop! LOL] That is not how the Church operates and is not how it was established by Jesus Christ. [Because YOU hold everything the Church teaches. Right?] Fr. Z operates as a Protestant, setting his own schedule, justifying his actions because of the current crisis in the Church – as Martin Luther did some centuries ago. [That’s what Luther did?] Pride is the deadliest sin. OK, so “Fr. Z” is fluent in several languages and “brilliant” – we get it. [No. You don’t “get it”.] He uses every opportunity to make others believe he has a superior intellect to the rest of us poor ignorant peons. [Yes. YOU are a poor ignorant peon. [eye-roll] Therefore I will go easy on you here and pray for you offline. ] When will someone in Rome call this wayward priest to task? This is not how Catholic priests are supposed to behave – to just take off and set up independent shop in any jurisdiction they please, and solicit funds from the lay faithful for who knows what purpose… Doesn’t this guy have to at least give a financial accounting to someone???? [Believe me the IRS is deeply involved! Meanwhile, please sign up for a monthly donation?] Aren’t there some rules about this??? [???… !!!. ???? .. ??? … Let me add… ?!?!????!] He bans anyone who disagrees with him from making comments or giving their opinion. [No. I ban jerks. Disagreements are fine, so long as they are not persistently pointless, heretical, ad hominem, scandalous, etc.] And Fr. Z supports wholeheartedly the schism of the Society of St. Pius X (the SSPX), [Have you ever read my blog? …. ??!?!? !?!] openly supporting the SSPX at any chance he gets – he edited their Spanish/Latin Missile for them, [I did? I didn’t know that. Sounds like really dangerous work.] thus doing work for this illicit, breakaway group. Fr. Zulsdorf [sic] even encouraged Catholic parents to send their young children to the schismatic schools run by the SSPX. [Yah… that sounds like me. [eye-roll]] He insisted that Catholics can meet their Sunday obligation at SSPX Masses, which of course they cannot do. [Yes, they can.] Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent. Maybe a faithful bishop will read this and decide to finally take action and reign Fr. John Zuhsdorf in, but I’m not holding my breath. [Please. Do.] Piests seem to be able to get away with just about anything these days; there is no discipline at all.
Sad business. In most comboxes you find the vilification of people, direct attacks on people rather than on ideas or thoughts. I’ve edited by own interjected comments, above, since I at a few points I failed in charity… for which I apologize. Usually this sort of thing rolls of my back, but it was a really nasty day and this sort of low-information, libelous ad hominem got under my skin. In any event, I try to keep the combox here on a fairly even keel, deleting comments which clearly go over the line.
UPDATE 17 Oct 1507 GMT:
Have you voted today? You might be able to vote again.
UPDATE 17 Oct 19:53 GMT:
The latest… slightly off but still showing well.
And now I see that dear old Phyllis Zagano has leapt to the defense her project!
NB: Apparently anyone who has expressed “No” to the ordination of women is “angry”. Also, take note of that “again”. Fantasy.
Odd. I don’t see a lot of anger in the comments in this thread, above. Some jocularity, but no anger.
Who are the real angry folks, I wonder?
UPDATE 18 Oct:
Apparently you can vote everyday.
Loading ...
I just voted, and refreshed the page a couple of times, and the numbers are quickly reversing. Thank you for the heads-up, Father!
Isn’t the question for Catholics, “Can women be ordained deacons?”
Same answer, though.
(what I posted there)
One cannot confer what one does not possess. Women cannot be ordained “deacons” (sic) because the Church possesses neither the authority nor the capacity to do such. The very question itself belies a grave misunderstanding of the constitution of the Church. The Church cannot do things simply because people prefer the Church to do such things. The ministers of the Church are to do that which the Lord commands and nothing else. So the question must be, “Did the Lord command that the Church ordain women as deacons?” One must look to the will of Christ, not the will of the members of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Historically there were what we could label as women deaconesses, but they were not ordained, and there were some very good reasons why the practice stopped. If we are going to go down the path of “let us do what the early Church did”, without paying attention to the whys and why nots, perhaps we should pay attention to how deacons in the early Church were to live – celibate.
If perhaps it seems that the wives of those to be ordained to the deaconate are paying more attention / taking things more seriously, this it not an indication of the suitability of the woman but more so the unsuitability of the men for ordination.
We MUST look for what Christ wills not what our own intellect or sentiment wills.
Not shocked that Crux put this up at all. After reading David Pierre’s “Sins of the Press,” everything you see over at Crux makes sense. The Boston Globe owns Crux, and the Globe hates the Church with an unholy passion.
If the question were about deaconesses, as they are defined in the Ancient Canons, I think the answers we could hope for would be less clear-cut — but as far as “women deacons” are concerned, it’s obvious that the diaconate as defined for men cannot be appropriate for women.
Done.
No’s are in the 70s now.
I think one of the problems people have with this is simply one of language, or rather, of translation. They say “there were female deacons in the ancient Church so we should be able to have them today” because they have read translations of documents in which the words deacon or deaconess are used to describe some Christian women.
For example, in my Penguin translation of Pliny, Book 10 Letter 96, it says “two slave-women, whom they call deaconesses”, thus translating the word ministra. However, ministra more likely means simply “female attendant, maidservant, or assistant” according to Lewis & Short, which is pretty definitive, surely?
Of course anyone is at liberty to believe that Pliny really meant “deaconesses” and knew the technical connotations of that. In which case they must think that he presumably also had expert knowledge enough to judge Christianity, which he did: Nihil aliud inveni quam superstitionem pravam et immodicam., I have found nothing but a degenerate and extravagant cult.
I just voted- it is now no by almost 81%! I love you all very much ;)
It’s gone. At least on my screen.
Just voted: “No” now at 78%, “Yes” 22%. There’s also a rather gracious apology from Mr. Allen to Card. Napier of South Africa for misquoting him in an earlier article. A gentleman.
The early medieval Byzantine texts do strongly imply that deaconesses were ordained in a ceremony quite similar to the ordination of deacons. That being said, their role was different…and the early Church used the term “ordain” much more loosely than we do today. I personally believe the office of deaconess was a distinct order conferred by its own sacramental, not the sacrament of holy orders, akin to the ordination of sub-deacons, the profession of religious, the consecration of virgins, or the blessing of abbots and abbesses.
jaykay, it wasn’t quite as gracious as it appears, Cdl. Napier had to demand that Mr. Allen put out a written apology and retraction. Mr. Allen at first only sent a private note of apology, but Napier demanded a public one as well.
Action item complete!
My understanding is that the role of “deaconess” in the early Church was not the female equivalent of an ordained deacon (holy orders).
It is true that the term “ordain” was used very loosely. That is one of the reasons Blessed Paul VI revised the minor orders. Back then, porters, exorcists, lectors, acolytes, subdeacons, etc., as well as deacons and priests were all “ordained”… but we know they did not all receive the sacrament of holy orders.
It seems like Bl. Paul VI wanted to make the distinction clear that ordination is a sacrament (holy orders), and came up with the word “instituted” instead. Whether or not the word “instituted” ever existed before is anyone’s guess, but it makes sense today.
Thank you for the heads-up! Voted.
84.44% No, including my vote.
“Polls should be held in secret to avoid unwanted responses”????? That ought to be funny somewhere… I just can’t find where. The purpose of a poll isn’t to get people’s opinions, but just to be confirmed in your own? SURE, “Luke”.
I like being your “minion,” Father.
HyacinthClare says: I like being your “minion,” Father.
Bless you, minion. Now, get back to work!
I noted in the comments section for that poll – who knew there were comments for these polls? – that some of the liberals don’t like the fact that you are voting.
It’s really silly for someone to complain about this. When you do this sort of “polling,” what do you expect?
No at 86.14% as of 5:26 pm ET. Go Minions!
How exactly does one vote in a “pole?”
A Papist throwback Fr. Zed’s lockstep sheep minion life for me!
Nothing is stopping progressive/heretical bloggers from directing their “minions” to the poll. Oh, wait. Is it possible they don’t have any “minions”?!
We need to get Fr. Z minion mugs or Tshirts or something……this is too fun. Ooooo….maybe bumper stickers that say “My Fr. Z minion is way smarter than your honor student”?
What is the point in voting about something which simply cannot, will not, could not, is impossible, is theological nonsense, happen.
I’m sure you all get the point!!!
It is up to 84.92% no as of now!
Geoffrey Unfortunately, they have minions. Have you seen the Com Box for Catholic Vote’s nice little video called “Not Alone”. Just a simple tasteful vid, nothing said against anybody, it has been SLAMMED in the Comboxes and in countless mocking “replies” There is more but just one example of the minions from the LGBT crowd
I’d gladly share in the Minioness Mission.
I can see the new comic now: The Minions of Zed.
The forces of evil must really really get their shorts in a wad when their self-referential ‘polls’ are turned back upon them. :)
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Voted! Can’t believe this is even a thing. St. Monica pray for us!
POLL ALERT! “Should pigs fly?”
I really like the comment above, dear “Legisperitus”!
Just think of all the mess below, if pigs could fly!!
By the way I put in my “No” vote too.
Oddly enough, I found the poll through Facebook, where someone had posted it as interesting and perhaps others might like to speak out. Might have been one of my more liberal friends– at any rate, I voted MY way, which just happens to be the same as Fr. Z, whom I like because he happens to agree with me. LOL!
The response in the comments was predictable.
The most basic premise of a poll is that you want input from others.
Unless, that is, the input is not the specific input you wanted to receive.
Also popular are polls that only give you response options that fit a chosen message, and response options intended to bias the way you think about an issue (eg – Does the Catholic Church enslave women (a) in chains (b) using physical violence (c) by teaching that women’s dignity is not dependent on material success (d) all of the above)
I voted “NO!” on women’s ordination .(deaconate or otherwise) along with the other 85.25% of respondents…lol…as if we had a vote in the matter.
Legispeitus, are you calling for better in flight manners? I vote no to pigs flying….but if they must, pigs should fly cargo class. I can hear the flight attendants now, gleefully enforcing the new policy, “Ma’am, if you’d like to pick your toes, you’ll need to move to cargo class”. Think of how roomy economy class would become!
Fr. Z,
Regarding your posted comments within Cristina’s comment-
I agree with what you’re saying, but the “how” of it… just, uhm, maybe take it into one more holy hour, and please pray for me as well.
Regards.
I once spent a fair amount of time pondering the question whether the deaconesses of old were ordained or merely instituted — there are good arguments either way.
But there was one element in the ancient texts defining the diaconate, when there were both deacons and deaconesses, that led me to conclude that it was actually a form of ordination ; albeit by no means whatsoever any form of the priestly ordination.
The ancient texts describe the Order that is belonged to, and there was never established a separate “Order of Deaconesses”, but they describe Deacons and Deaconesses as belonging to the same Order, but as having different Ministries within that Order.
I concluded therefore that the Rite of induction of the Deaconesses into that Order must be sacramentally singular with the Rite of induction of the Deacons, which is an ordination, so that therefore the Deaconesses were ordained. But, because the Ministries are non-identical, it was an ordination towards a non-sacrificial and intrinsically non-priestly Ministry, whereas Deacons are ordained towards a Ministry of sacrificial assistance to the Priests.
The ancient texts describe Deacons and Deaconesses as having some parts of their Ministries in common, and other parts of their Ministries that are distinguished. Deaconesses had, for example, a particular Ministry towards girls and women, pregnancy and childbirth, that Deacons do not have.
The Deaconesses sat as Lay persons during the Holy Mass certainly, though they had a teaching Ministry ; but outside the Mass, they were still considered to be clergy. Most Deaconesses were also in religious Orders, and they were always consecrated virgins or consecrated widows. They had a strict Vow of Celibacy.
You mean like when Fr. Z “bids” us to “Go to Confession” [I wish too]. . . just think of all the harm we’re doing to ourselves every time we receive Christ’s sacrament of healing. Shame on Father Z for having the well-being of our souls at heart !
BTW did anyone else notice how that particular comment has already labelled everybody “followers of Fr. Zuhlsdorf” ? Funny. . . I never saw it that way – confined , to such a restrictive, convenient little space: I’ve always thought of myself as one who struggles to follow Christ , and who finds edification , solace, good advice, a little support (and even the odd thing to disagree with) when I read Father Z’s blog and the input from my brothers and sisters in the comboxes.
Venerable Fulton Sheen has some interesting perspectives on polls and statistics in his video How to Think. If you have a chance , be sure to at least watch his example of a statistic concerning John Hopkins University beginning at approximately 11:35 of the video.
That was a great interview Father Z with Christina. I didn’t know that you were involved with some editing for SSPX. I for one would love to see SSPX come back to the faith.
[I never did any editing for the SSPX. The only thing I ever did for anyone in the SSPX was help their return to a regular canonical state when I worked for the Pont. Comm. “Ecclesia Dei”.]
I just KNEW there had to be one in Google Image:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a2/5f/30/a25f307269ee0b857e624bd60f420262.jpg
Fr.Z, ya just gots to post the image!!!!
–Guy
Sub-minion, 3rd Order
Whaa, Whaa, Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Thanks for the good laugh. I really must be one of your zombies, I mean Zed Head.
Isn’t it dangerous work editing a missile? [Especially after it has been launched.]
Usually this blog is a source of encouragement and comfort, but today it is an occasion of envy. Fr. Z, I’m ashamed to admit:
I WANT MINIONS.
I’ve always wanted them. When I awake I want them to say, “What is your desire, kind master? May we fetch your coffee? Shall we lay out your clothes? At what temperature do you wish your shower?” Etc., etc.
How can I, too, get minions?
I loved your response to Christina. Unfortunately, she is one of millions who, on a daily basis, have no clue about what the Church is all about yet continue to profess to be Catholic. She is a product of what Catholic religious education has been for the last 50 years.
Does anyone else love the delicious irony when Crux writers/readers invoke obedience and insist on following the rules? [That’s especially the case at Fishwrap.]
Father, you missed a ‘sic’ (“reign in”/”rein in”).
It’s a service I provide.
It’s a pleasure to do your bidding, Fr. Z. Would that it could only have been so much fun and supportive of veritas and caritas when I did others’ bidding. Would that they be reined or reigned in by their Bishops. I only regret that no one seems to do my bidding. I suppose I just haven’t spoken out on behalf of pro life forcefully enough. Hey I’m still learning.
Liverpool Archdiocese Year Book lists Permanent Deacon together with their wives – where appropriate. But in the light of possible developments – the mind boggles who might be listed.
Cristina wrote, “…he edited their Spanish/Latin Missile for them,”
Looks like Fr. Z needs to start a donation drive for purchase of an anti-missile defense system!
On my stroll through the CRUX website to the voting box, I did find one interesting well-written article about a just-recently-recognized draft of 1 Esdras for the KJV. (Relatively few know that the “apocryphal” books were translated..beautifully, IMO…for the KJV.)
Thus, this visit to CRUX wasn’t the expected waste of time in a wasteland.
When we do the work of Father Z, we are doing the work of the Church. After all, someone’s got to do it! Thus, we are minions for the Catholic Church, which makes me a happy and joyful minion indeed.
Ready for the next marching orders!
Signed,
A Sonshining Minion
About that Spanish/Latin Missile… er um Missal. My original post about it HERE.
Click to buy.
Concerning all my minions… where’s Vincenzo when you need him?
How do I apply to become a minion ? And I when do I get my Missiles ?
Alright! I’m a “MINION”!
If I’m going to be insulted, at least that’s a grandiose way of being insulted!
Better than being called a “dateless loser”.
This discussion brings to mind the lyrics of a famous contemporary wag “You’re gonna have to serve somebody”…and another less of a contemporary but whose thought is nonetheless still contemporaneous that it’s less a matter of serving God or nothing at all so much as it is a matter of either worshipping God or else worshipping everything. We do well to accept the invitation to carry the yoke which is easy and the burden which is light. Sometimes we get enmeshed in others’ quagmires of dysfunction or disorder, and it can be difficult, yet, it’s always worth it to elect that easy/light and not the other. One prays for the grace to persevere in that. I recall taking one small yet important step to protect another’s life and innocence that was met by unimagined and fierce even violent blowback way beyond proportion or reason. One does not expect that sort of blowback for merely doing what is one’s obligation and duty in the first place, and yet, even when it comes we find resources we did not know we had in meeting the challenge and continuing on. Experiencing so many things as a mother in these times of chaos and hatred, one can only imagine what treatment priests are getting just for doing the bidding of the Lord, to protect and defend. And one begins to have clarity on how we got to this place in the first place — it is not easy given the disproportionate and violent blowback, to continue, even with simple steps, and it’s all too easy to decide that it simply is not worth it, and to bargain away integrity for a false “peace” which is only a sort of enslavement. The joy with which we continue even with the full force of hatred bearing down in many cases is evidence that we walk with the Lord even through the valley of death.
All I can say is that when I send a donation your way, along with it is a prayer that you put it towards one of your upcoming trips. For myself, those trips are like pilgrimages that I am able to join through your blog. They have re-awakened me to the beauty and richness of our Catholic heritage that I am now passing on to the students I teach. It’s not just that you show these beautiful artworks – you also educate us about them. Your trips to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, to give but one example, are priceless – I’ve printed out a number of the art objects you’ve photographed on your trips there, shown them to the students (informed by your comments) and then encouraged them to ask their parents to take them there to see them in person. I have to tell you that the story of the goldfinch – alongside the picture of the “Madonna and Child with Two Angels” – is a big hit. There also was the time that a security guard at the museum became so interested in what I was saying to my granddaughter about a painting (thanks to you) that he leaned across the doorway to listen. I asked him afterwards if he was Catholic – he said “no” but the story interested him. Who knows what seed of faith may have been planted in him thanks to you, Father? So please keep on doing what you’re doing. The Beauty you show us is a portal to the Truth which in turn – if we will but respond – brings us to the Goodness God so desires us to have.
[Thanks. And thanks for the prayers, the feedback, and anecdote. Mostly, donations pay my bills. Not exciting, but bills have to be paid. Trips… yes, those too. The upcoming trip to Rome (next week) is also a pilgrimage of sorts, along with a chance to run errands and maintain some contacts. Anyway, thanks.]
I just want to say that this ^ post by Gracie is so very awesome. May God bless you, Gracie, and bring your work as a teacher to abundant flowering.
And also, this seems to me an excellent and opportune place to recall and appreciate this FrZSwag (Zwag?) of yore:
http://www.cafepress.com/frzsstore.617978539
Ah yes. The “Lockstep sheep and papist throwbacks” swag. Origin: HERE
Many people don’t notice, at least at first, the tiny B16 leading the way. As well as yours truly driving them on.
Oh my gosh I laughed so hard at the “Cristina” Crux comment especially “not being supervised by ANY Catholic prelate”. Actually, truly, I cannot stop laughing enough to read the rest of her comment.
Elizabeth D says: “Cristina” Crux comment
Yep… risible. Given that I actually live at the diocesan chancery down the hall from the Vicar General.
That’s what follows from being poorly informed and not honest enough to find out the facts.
As the painting on the wall over my shoulder says, “Aut tace aut loquere meliora silentio!”
And on that note of supervision, in a ironic twist, here is not just “any”, but “the” prelate being supervised by me!
NB: No female deacons. No female servers, either.
And that’s the Vicar General doing the reading as Subdeacon, the Judicial Vicar seated as Deacon and the Director of Vocations as Assistant Priest.
Yep. I’m careening along out of control, alright.
Fr Z, it was confidential information for so long that I was not going to say that out loud!
Fr Z is well supervised and the bishop has spoken about him in my hearing with esteem, on more than one occasion! That dear Vicar General, I know him to be THE ENFORCER! I am sure Fr Z does not get away with anything!
7,500 signatures?
Let us see them even come close to the 857,000 signatures on the Filial Appeal On the Future of the Family sent to the Pope last month.
First I want to say that I am against the ordination of woman as priests or deacons. Second I’m kind of borrowing this line of thought from a friend. If we look at the word deacon we see that I indicates servant. If we look at the entry in The Catholic Encyclopedia 1908, it says that initially deacons provided charity to the men and deaconesses to the woman and also were an intermediary between the clergy and woman in those days assisting the clergy with the baptism of woman and the teaching of woman. As the need for them decreased it died out. It is thought that they may have been drawn from consecrated virgins and widows. If they are calling for “woman deacons”, “deaconesses” which served to provide charity to woman and children, then why deplicate what the Church already provides. In the Rite of Consecration of a Virgin Living in the World it states, ” Never forget that you are given over entirely to the service of the Church and of all your brothers and sisters. You are apostles in the Church and in the world, in the things of the Spirit and in the things of the world. Let your light then shine before men and women, that your Father in heaven may be glorified, and his plan of making all things one in Christ come to perfection. Love everyone, especially those in need. Help the poor, care for the weak, teach the ignorant, protect the young, minister to the old, bring strength and comfort to widows and all in adversity.” Many times consecrated virgins once we are consecrated are out there searching to minister to the needs of the Church. Some of us are treated as if we are just a member of the layity instead of a form of consecrated life. Hey, we are here and would like to help.
Exactly, oklip955 — the only things that the Deaconesses had and that our Faithful women religious do not, was that they were ordinary ministers of Baptism and of Marriage.
Yes, indeed, Fr. Someone should reign you in. Really, or maybe rain you out. But don’t let anyone rein you in, please!
please no more of this woman stuff. no altar girls, they are so out of place. and i am a female and findthe very idea of altar girls abhorrent –the idea of women deaconesses, more fooling about the altar by women, so out of place. i can’t stand seeing women at the altar in any capacity except as a bride. yuck..
What liberals can’t win by fair play and reason they censor.
This is to get someone over you to silence you.
They have no honor or sense of fair play. Its so ugly.
Man up lady.
Jabba Pappa, I was not commenting on religious. I have never been a religious. I am a consecrated virgin living in the world, another form of consecrated life. It is an individual lived diocesian vocation. We are the fasted growing form of consecrated life. Deaconesses were drawn from consecrated virgins and widows. Since there is no need for deaconesses to assist with the baptism of women or the anointing of them, no need for deaconesses. The only exception and say it in that consecrated virgins can fill this roll, in countries and in cultures that still force a strong separation of men and women consecrated virgins can play a roll similar to deaconesses as a go between. As far as consecrated virgins today, we fulfill a variety of roles. Still there are some of us who after are consecration are basically seen as just another lay person in the pews.
Better wear a beretta when handling Latin missiles : ) !
HyacinthClare said, quoting Luke (not the Evangelist):
It’s funny because it provides an excellent example of one of the self-contradictions in these peoples’ lives. Consider the flip side to what he said; it looks like this:
And the poor man doesn’t have a clue that that is really what he said.