Knoxville, TN: First Solemn Latin Mass in Decades

Frequent reader/commentor Henry sent the following:

Knoxville Catholics’ First Solemn Latin Mass in Decades

At 2 pm on Sunday, April 20 at Knoxville’s historic Holy Ghost Catholic Church — currently celebrating its centennial — area Catholics will enjoy the city’s first solemn Latin Mass celebrated in the four decades since the newer vernacular Mass was introduced in the years following the Second Vatican Council.

As a special feature for this festive occasion, a combined multi-parish choir and orchestra directed by Mary Frazier Garner will sing the principal choral parts of the Mass in the famous "Coronation Mass" setting composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. This unique event will afford the opportunity of hearing some of the Church’s greatest sacred music presented not solely in concert but as an active part of the liturgy in a "live" church worship service.

This commemorative celebration follows Pope Benedict XVI’s recent restoration of the older traditional Latin Mass for regular usage as the "extraordinary form" of the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. The newer post-Vatican II Mass is designated the "ordinary form" of the Mass, which is the central act of Catholic liturgical worship. But the pope decreed that parish priests no longer need special permission to use the older form of Mass.

The Latin Mass can be offered at three levels of ceremony and solemnity. The "low Mass" is recited with little or no music. The "sung Mass" is chanted by a priest, usually with music and congregational singing. The "solemn Mass" is offered by a priest assisted by additional clerical ministers and a choir. All parts of a solemn Mass are chanted or sung, the actions of the ministers at the altar are elaborate, and the fragrance of incense combines with sight and sound to provide an enveloping atmosphere of reverence and worship.

This solemn Mass at Holy Ghost Church will be celebrated by Fr. John Arthur Orr, with  Fr. David Carter (assoc. pastor at St. Jude’s Church in Chattanooga) and Fr. Patrick Resen (assoc. pastor at Our Lady of Fatima Church in Alcoa) functioning as deacon and subdeacon. Holy Ghost pastor Monsignor Xavier Mankel will attend in choir.

Fr. Orr, spiritual director at Knoxville Catholic High School and pastor of Clinton’s St. Therese Catholic Church, has served the Knoxville Latin Mass community since his 2005 appointment as its chaplain by then Bishop Joseph E. Kurtz. Latin Masses have since been held on Sundays at 1:30 pm at St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Farragut and more recently at St. Therese Church in Clinton. This special Mass at Holy Ghost Church was scheduled earlier to celebrate the new St. John Neumann Church in Farragut, where the building dedication has been delayed.

All are welcome to attend who would like both to view the traditional Latin liturgy of the Catholic Church in its fullest form and to hear the music of Mozart that was inspired by and in turn supports this liturgy. The Knoxville Latin Mass community’s web site at www.knoxlatinmass.net can be consulted for further information including a map and directions to Holy Ghost Church.

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53 Responses to Knoxville, TN: First Solemn Latin Mass in Decades

  1. TJM says:

    If this appeared in the popular press, this is truly impressive: accurate, positive, and totally devoid of the usual polemics. Fantastic! Tom

  2. Michael C. says:

    I REALLY hope they do the Credo. The Credo is almost always left out and replaced with congregational singing, but this is almost always the most beautiful part of any Mass setting. A conductor I know tells me that by the 1950s, musicians weren’t even writing Credos for new Mass settings anymore. The activist interpretation of “participatio actuosa,” which the Popes had been encouraging for 40 years, became so widespread that the Credo was almost always sung by the congregation.

    I know this is off topic, but I sometimes here this phrase translated as “actual participation.” Doesn’t “actuosa” clearly mean active in the usual sense of the word? My dictionary even gives “acting with extravagant gesture” as one of the definitions.

  3. Papabile says:

    Father Orr, PGK, I miss him. We went to college together, and he was a great Grand Knight in the K of C, understanding the proper balance of Beer, whiskey, food, Mass, and genuine social justice outreach. What a great man.

  4. Michael Garner says:

    Michael C et al,

    Yes the choir and orchestra will be doing the full Coronation Mass by Mozart, i.e. Kyrie, Gloria,
    Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei. The schola of men will be doing the propers
    of the Mass using the chants found in the Liber Usualis. I will be MC for this Mass
    and am looking very much foward to it. Our 3 priests have been working very hard to learn
    their parts. I hope that everyone who is able to will come and experience this
    wonderful treasure of Holy Mother Church.

    -Michael Garner

  5. Michael C: I REALLY hope they do the Credo. The Credo is almost always left out and replaced with congregational singing, but this is almost always the most beautiful part of any Mass setting.

    Yes. I agree. The Credo is part of the Mass setting and it should be done as well, particularly in the context of a TLM.

  6. Stanley says:

    The Archdiocese of Chicago says that the SSPX and the Fraternite du Notre Dame are not Masses that the Catholic faithful are not supposed to attend.

    By canon law for Latin Rite Catholics and from oral information from both Ukrainian Rite and Melkite Rite Catholic priests I understand that a Roman Catholic can take sacraments from an Orthodox priest if there is no Latin Rite or Eastern Rite in union with Rome in close promiximity. The Sacraments are valid but not licit (or is it licit but not valid–I am pretty sure valid). Baptism (even by lay person or non “church” without sacraments or apostolic succession/authority), Communion, and Last Rites by an Orthodox priest in exigent circumstances.

    In fact, the Vatican allows intercommunion between Assyrian Churches and other Oriental Rite (of both Monophysite and Nestorian roots now in union with Rome and some not) not in union with Rome and without an explicit consecration in a cohesive narrative but still claims a real presence as
    1. It is an ancient and traditional liturgical rite
    2. they believe in the Real Presence
    3. they have an epiclesis (which the Orthodox believe or at least some believe make the Roman Latin Liturgy invalid)
    4. There is the consecration allegedly but not in a cohesive narrative but peppered throughout the liturgy (in some cases the Liturgy of St. James and/or Holy Qurbana)

    Thus going to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not necessarily prohibited.
    On a practical note in the city of Chicago and outlying suburbs there is great intercommunion on a practical level and families going to both the Palestinian immigrant focused St. George Antiochene Orthodox Church in Cicero as well as St. John the Baptist Melkite Greek Catholic (called Greek but ethnic Arabs) Church in Northlake.
    The Same is true of those under the Eparchy of the Ukrainian Rite Catholics in Chicago–more than one priest (Catholic, married with children) has told me that he is “Orthodox in union with Rome” and that Orthodox can accept communion when he gives Divine Liturgy.
    Thus in practice, and possibly “legally” and in theory at least the Arabs and the Ukrainians have a great deal of “ecumenicism” and intercommunion.

    Because of the persecution in Iraq, and the immigration to now Christian neighborhoods in Damascus and Jordan–there is a dying down of past theological, semantic, historical differences and being Christian is the common denominator. Thus there is a great deal of intermarriage, intercommunion, inter-going to liturgies among Chaldean Catholics, Monophysites, Assyrians, quasi-Nestorians, Latin Rite Catholics, Melkite Catholics, and Orthodox–as well as the sharing of resources, crowded apartments, health care and much needed social services from these refugees from the current situation in Iraq.

    The SSPX are not or may not be in schism but they are canonically irregular and there are some associated with the SSPX and certainly with other Traditional chapels (depending on the chapel) that are sede vacante or close to it (even among some in the SSPX) thus there are varying levels of perceived unity in the chapels (I have been to the SSPX chapel in Chicago and was underwhelmed by their liturgy if one wants a good Tridentine Rite go to St. John Cantius in Chicago and it will be fairly amazing)

    I would be interested to here Fr. Z’s approach to Orthodoxy and Eastern Rite Catholicsm and what Latin Rite canon law says on Orthodox intercommunion (or last rites if I was in the middle of Syria) or if the Latin Rite canon law applies to Eastern Rite Catholics as they are sui juris (which is why the Ukrainian priests are married and give communion to Orthodox and claim it is valid and licit)

    God Bless you and the website

  7. Mary Margaret says:

    I visited this church in December when visiting my daughter and son-in-law. It is a lovely old church–a bit beaten up in some ways (plaster issues, etc). The reredos (if I have that term correct??) is very lovely, and the altar rail is still intact (Yay!). They have what appears to be a tremendous organ. Unfortunately, when I was there we had a single guitar for musical accompaniment. I can imagine that the TLM will be very suitable to this church. Congrats, Knoxville, I’m sure it will be beautiful.

  8. Tom says:

    “This commemorative celebration follows Pope Benedict XVI’s recent restoration of the older traditional Latin Mass for regular usage as the “extraordinary form” of the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.”

    Incredibly, despite “Pope Benedict XVI’s recent restoration of the older traditional Latin Mass,” the Holy Father has refused to offer the Mass that he “restored.”

    I pray that the Holy Father will seize the moment to restore the shattered state of Latin Church liturgy by offering the Traditional Latin Mass frequently.

    When the Pope returns to the TLM, the Latin Church will follow.

  9. Christian says:

    Glorious! I love the Mozart setting. :-) Ironicly I doubt if such good music would ever have been used in the old Church (in America certainly – just read ‘Why Catholics Can’t Sing’).

  10. Phil says:

    This is a wonderful initiative, and should be followed in as many places as possible. Mass properly understood is an extraordinary experience in any form (pun intended if you dont mind), but more so if accompanied by music befitting the magnitude and splendor of the sacrifice of the Mass.
    It matters a great deal if the Mass is a ceremony expressing deep faith, and for some people, me included, using the great musical treasures of the Church is an expression that has few equals. It is not that just that a solemn Mass befits awe-inspiring music which amplifies the expression of devotion – amplifies active participation.
    And it’s not merely the music either; it’s the combination, the fact that Mass drives us to the pinnacle of our abilities to honor God. When listening to recordings of great Masses, one can almost tell if the composer (or soloist/choir) believe in what they sing.

    And if all that wasn’t enough, what would be a better testimony to a vibrant Catholic Church than a reverent Mass with full choir and orchestra, using the work of brilliant minds as it was intended?

  11. Mike Williams says:

    Christian– you are correct. There was a time when Mass settings by Mozart and ahydn, among others, were forbidden for liturgical use in the USA. As I remember it, they were regarded as too “theatrical,” which was the term Pope St Pius X used to criticize much 19th century sacred music.

    Ironically for those of us who love such music, I believe the proscription was only lifted after Vatican II. But that’s me relying on an ever-shakier memory– does anyone know a source that discusses the issue?

  12. Mike Williams says:

    Sorry for the absurd typo for “Haydn.” The text scrolls off the page when I post and so I have to guess what I’ve typed! (I’ll preview in future.)

  13. Maureen says:

    “Incredibly, despite “Pope Benedict XVI’s recent restoration of the older traditional Latin Mass,” the Holy Father has refused to offer the Mass that he “restored.””

    Incredibly, this poster not only knows all about what goes on in the Pope’s private chapel,
    he even knows that the Pope refuses to offer the Extraordinary Form. Isn’t it tiring to
    jump to so many conclusions? Wouldn’t it be easier to take a deep breath, have a little
    faith, and wait and see what happens?

    Imagine that you’d gone to sleep five years ago, and woken up this morning to the present
    situation. You’d be jumping for joy, not complaining because things weren’t moving fast enough!

  14. Marcus says:

    Useless Trivia Contribution:

    Mozart’s full name is Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, with Amadeus being the Latin equivalent of Theophilus, according the Little Blue Book from this past Advent (Dec 5).

    This Mass is going to be spectacular! I’m just worried about the choir loft falling in! The great part is that this is a DIOCESAN event, with people coming from as far as Johnson City and Chatanooga to participate. Hopefully, this will awaken some folks in our fair, but TLM-indifferent, diocese to the beauty of the Extraordinary Form.

  15. I know Fr. Carr slightly – he is relatively recently ordained (3 years?) and while he was at the PNAC in Rome was a regular visitor at my sister and bro-in-law’s Navy parish in Gaeta. They loved him to death, and when their family was home in Chattanooga Christmas of 2006 we went out of our way to go to a couple of his masses. He’s great!

    And this is great news for the diocese of Knoxville.

  16. Marcus says:

    I wanted to add that, although this diocesan event perhaps should be held at the cathedral, Holy Ghost is an absolutely beautiful church and the cathedral… well, let’s just say it’s one of those “new style” buildings, although the recent renovations following the fire were definitely a change for the better!

    Mercifully, the new St. John Neumann church building for which this Mass will be offered is going to be a stunner: http://www.sjnknox.org

    It’s just too bad our new bishop won’t be able to attend. Oh wait, that’s right – we didn’t get one in yesterday’s appointments. Keep praying.

    Deo Gratias!

  17. Tom says:

    “Incredibly, despite “Pope Benedict XVI’s recent restoration of the older traditional Latin Mass,” the Holy Father has refused to offer the Mass that he “restored.””

    “Incredibly, this poster not only knows all about what goes on in the Pope’s private chapel, he even knows that the Pope refuses to offer the Extraordinary Form. Isn’t it tiring to jump to so many conclusions? Wouldn’t it be easier to take a deep breath, have a little faith, and wait and see what happens?”

    I don’t need to take a deep breath, have a little faith, and wait to see what happens. My post doesn’t concern the future.

    I stated that the Pope has refused to offer the TLM…and at least publicly, that is the case.

    Actions are far more powerful than words.

    A powerful argument that I have encountered is that the Pope is not particularly interested in the TLM or he would offer the TLM publicly and frequently.

    What can I say to a priest who insists…”when I observe the Pope offering the TLM, then I’ll offer the TLM…until then, I will offer the same Mass (Novus Ordo) that the Pope offers publicly.”

    That principle applies to the overall state of Latin Church liturgy.

    How can anybody (as posters do frequently on this blog) argue against Communion in the hand, altar girls and additional non-traditional practices when Papal liturgies feature such practices?

    We are, so to speak, a follow-the-leader-Church.

    How can a Catholic argue, for example, against altar girls at Mass, when Papal liturgies feature altar girls.

    How can a Catholic argue, for example, against Communion in the hand when the Pope administers Communion in the hand?

    Why should a priest offer the TLM publicly when the Pope doesn’t offer the TLM publicly?

    Again…priests have presented that argument to me to justify their refusal to offer the TLM publicly.

    They insist…the Pope doesn’t offer the TLM publicly, therefore, neither will I.

    Follow the leader’s actions.

    I pray that the Holy Father will offer the TLM publicly and often.

    Only when the Pope returns publicly to the TLM can the Latin Church recover from Her post-Vatican II liturgical and spiritual collapse.

  18. Tom says:

    Maureen, I realize that you believe that I have attacked Pope Benedict XVI.

    Oh, my…Tom has bashed the Holy Father…therefore, I must chide Tom.

    Maureen, you are wrong. I simply pointed to reality.

    To be precise (as you steered my statement to the Pope’s private chapel), the Pope has not offered the TLM in public…before thousands (millions) of people.

    Maureen, the Latin Church is in a state of utter collapse…liturgical and spiritual collapse. Said collapse is tied to the Novus Ordo.

    The Novus Ordo has all but emptied Latin Church parishes.

    A priest can don ornate vestments, add a bit of Latin to the Novus Ordo…but the Novus Ordo is the Novus Ordo…and is unable to instill Catholic identity into Catholics in the powerful manner as the Traditional Latin Mass.

    The restoration of the Latin Church boils down to the Mass…and only the Traditional Latin Mass can restore liturgical and spiritual sanity to the Latin Church.

    That is the bottom line…the Novus Ordo must go.

    The Pope must return to the TLM if he wishes to rebuild the Latin Church.

    Until such time, as long as the Novus Ordo remains in place, the Latin Church will remain in a state of liturgical and spiritual collapse.

    As soon as he instituted the Novus Ordo, there wasn’t anything that Pope Paul VI could do to repair the collapse of the Latin Church.

    Pope John Paul II could not repair the collapse of the Latin Church…even with his polices, initiatives, apologies, this and that…he could only watch as the Church collapsed around him.

    The collapse will continue during Pope Benedict XVI’s reign…unless the Holy Father returns to the Traditional Latin Mass and promotes the TLM to the hilt.

    The bottom line is that the Latin Church will remain in a state of liturgical and spiritual collapse…now and into the future…as long as the Novus Ordo remains in place.

    Only the full return to the TLM by the Pope (and Latin Church bishops and priests) can lift the Latin Church from Her state of liturgical and spiritual collapse.

  19. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: Why should a priest offer the TLM publicly when the Pope doesn’t offer the TLM publicly?

    Because Church law urges him to listen to requests of the faithful for the extraordinary use of the Roman Rite. After all, that’s why the Holy Father issued his motu proprio — because he listened to the requests of the faithful.

    I suppose these priests you talk to are all including Gregorian Chant in their Masses, since the Pope includes Gregorian Chant in his public Masses . . . .

  20. Henry Edwards says:

    Holy Ghost is an absolutely beautiful church

    Indeed it is. Here are some photos:

    http://www.ourladyoffatima.org/LINKS/HG-760/HG.htm

  21. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: but the Novus Ordo is the Novus Ordo…and is unable to instill Catholic identity into Catholics in the powerful manner as the Traditional Latin Mass.

    Those who gave us the reformed Roman Missal were formed and nurtured by the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass.

    The restoration of the Latin Church boils down to the Mass…and only the Traditional Latin Mass can restore liturgical and spiritual sanity to the Latin Church.

    Let’s not fall into the mistake of looking to the liturgy to do what only the Holy Spirit can do. That’s the mistaken notion that got us into our current liturgical mess. (I’m not saying the liturgy doesn’t help.)

    That is the bottom line…the Novus Ordo must go.

    Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen. It might eventually fade away and be abandoned over the next century or so, but there’s no way we’ll ever see the pre-Vatican II liturgical restored in one act of papal fiat the way the reformed liturgy was so imprudently and uncharitably imposed.

  22. RBrown says:

    Let’s not fall into the mistake of looking to the liturgy to do what only the Holy Spirit can do. That’s the mistaken notion that got us into our current liturgical mess. (I’m not saying the liturgy doesn’t help.)
    Comment by Jordan Potter

    It’s not an either/or situation. God works through instrumental causes, and one of His instruments is the liturgy.

    I happen to think that if the Church had preserved Latin liturgy and ad orientem celebration, we wouldn’t be in the present mess–even with the Novus Ordo.

  23. RBrown says:

    I stated that the Pope has refused to offer the TLM…and at least publicly, that is the case.
    Comment by Tom

    How do you know that he has refused? We know that he hasn’t, but that can mean that he hasn’t yet.

  24. Lee says:

    Marcus, the windows of the new St. John Neumann church are stunning. Are they cannibalized from a poor destroyed older church? I can’t believe anyone can make windows like that nowadays. Cubistic, angular and so unattractive has been the norm for such a long tiresome time.

  25. Lee says:

    Marcus, the windows on the new St. John Neumann church are stunning. Have they been cannibalized from some poor old destroyed church? Cubistic, angular and generally unattractive has been the norm for such a long, tiresome time.

  26. Lee says:

    Whoops. I can see that patience is part of posting here. Sorry for the duplication.

  27. Henry Edwards says:

    the windows of the new St. John Neumann church are stunning. Are they cannibalized from a poor destroyed older church?

    No, they newly commissioned and crafted afresh, based on detailed designs conceptualized and planned by Fr. John Dowling (St. John Neumann pastor) and Fr. John Arthur Orr (our TLM celebrant) who was assigned at SJN at the time.

  28. Tom: I stated that the Pope has refused to offer the TLM

    Hmm … Maybe it’s just that no one has invited him to do so. I can assure you that we did not ask His Holiness to celebrate our upcoming solemn TLM in Knoxville.

    Who knows, if only we’d thought to invite him — being in the U.S. anyway to address the UN — and given his well-known aversion to big open air Mass spectaculars, not to speak of his equally well-known affinity for Mozart, he might have passed up the Yankee Stadium event and “come on down”. (I’m about to convince myself that we really missed our main chance.)

  29. TJM says:

    Tom, the pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, celebrated the TLM publicly many times. Most importantly he issued Summorum Pontificum. Give it a rest. Tom

  30. Tom says:

    Maureen wrote: “Incredibly, this poster not only knows all about what goes on in the Pope’s private chapel, he even knows that the Pope refuses to offer the Extraordinary Form.”

    Hmmm…does your apology of sorts also apply to bishops and priests who have not publicly offered the TLM?

    Rather than chide bishops and priests who have refused to offer the TLM, as is the case on this blog, can their actions be justified by arguing that they are simply following the Pope’s lead by offering the TLM in private chapels?

  31. Tom says:

    Maureen wrote: “Incredibly, this poster not only knows all about what goes on in the Pope’s private chapel, he even knows that the Pope refuses to offer the Extraordinary Form.”

    Hmmm…when the Pope wishes to express his support for ecumenism, he prays publicly with schismatics and heretics for the entire world to see.

    When he wishes to express his support for Jews, he visits and prays publicly in synagogues for the entire world to see.

    When he wishes to express his support for interreligious “dialogue,” he visits and prays publicly, for example, inside mosques for the entire world to see.

    But His Holiness confines his TLM prayers to private chapels.

    Again…despite your intrepretation, I am not bashing the Holy Father.

    I simply pointed out the undeniable fact that His Holiness has refused to offer the TLM publicly…which we need him to do.

    Once the Pope returns publicly to the TLM, the Latin Church will follow.

    Do you not grasp the tremendous need that we have for a Pope who offers the TLM publicly?

    Again…based upon your logic, bishops and priests could limit their TLM celebrations to private chapels.

    Sorry, but we need of Popes, bishops and priests to offer the TLM publicly.

    That is the only way to lift the Latin Church from Her liturgical and spiritual post-Vatican II collapse.

    Pray that the Holy Father will return publicly to the Traditional Latin Mass…the Mass that he was ordained to offer.

  32. Jordan Potter says:

    RBrown said: It’s not an either/or situation. God works through instrumental causes, and one of His instruments is the liturgy.

    Indeed, that’s why I said, “I’m not saying the liturgy doesn’t help.”

  33. RBrown says:

    Indeed, that’s why I said, “I’m not saying the liturgy doesn’t help.”
    Comment by Jordan Potter

    But an instrumental cause is more than a help.

    Acc to SC the liturgy is the source and summit of the Christian life.

  34. Jordan Potter says:

    RBrown said: But an instrumental cause is more than a help.

    True, and yet an instrumental cause IS a help. The Scriptures call God Himself, who is rather more than an instrumental cause, a “help.”

    Now, if you go back a few comments, you find that Tom made the highly dubious assertion that “the restoration of the Latin Church boils down to the Mass . . . and ONLY the Traditional Latin Mass can restore liturgical and spiritual sanity to the Latin Church.” This despite the fact that there have been many, many periods in history when the Latin Church has been somewhat lacking in “liturgical and spiritual sanity,” despite the Traditional Latin Mass. Again, those who produced the reform of the liturgy were formed by the Traditional Latin Mass. Clearly, then, there must be much more to bringing about liturgical and spiritual renewal in the Latin Church than banning the Pauline Missal and reimposing the pre-Vatican II liturgy. Conversion and renewal in the Latin Church will require much more than changes to the liturgy, even though, as I have said, it can (and will) be greatly aided by fixing what has gone wrong with the liturgy (“I’m not saying that the liturgy doesn’t help.”).

    By the way, Tom, taking RBrown’s reference to Sacrosanctum Consilium, when it says, “the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows,” it doesn’t say, “The LATIN liturgy,” nor does it say the liturgy cannot be reformed or changed. Quite the contrary.

  35. Tom says:

    I wrote: “That is the bottom line…the Novus Ordo must go.”

    Jordan Potter wrote: “Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen. It might eventually fade away and be abandoned over the next century or so, but there’s no way we’ll ever see the pre-Vatican II liturgical restored in one act of papal fiat the way the reformed liturgy was so imprudently and uncharitably imposed.”

    I agree with you.

    I believe that based upon the so-called “Marshall Plan” (if that plan even exists)…which doesn’t even feature the Pope offering the TLM publicly…that we are, at best, at least 100 years from the demise of the Novus Ordo.

    That is if Pope Benedict XVI and his successors are determined to return to the Traditional Latin Mass.

    I don’t know that they are.

    It is very possible that the TLM will remain chained forever to its second-class status…and it is treated as a second-class liturgy by the majority of bishops and priests.

    That said, Pope Benedict XVI (or a future Pope) could return the Latin Church to the Traditional Mass in relatively short time…but I’m not convinced that the Pope has such a plan in mind.

    I envision today’s status to remain the norm for decades to come…the Novus Ordo will remain the Mass for 99 percent of Latin Catholics…and the TLM will retain its second-class status.

    Only the Holy Father can restore the TLM to its rightful place within the Church…and can do so only by offering the TLM regularly.

    But based upon his actions (no, I’m not bashing the Pope), I don’t believe that he will do so.

  36. Tom says:

    Jordan Potter wrote: “Now, if you go back a few comments, you find that Tom made the highly dubious assertion that “the restoration of the Latin Church boils down to the Mass . . . and ONLY the Traditional Latin Mass can restore liturgical and spiritual sanity to the Latin Church.” This despite the fact that there have been many, many periods in history when the Latin Church has been somewhat lacking in “liturgical and spiritual sanity,” despite the Traditional Latin Mass.
    I don’t believe that my assertion is highly dubious.

    You stated that “there have been many, many periods in history when the Latin Church has been somewhat lacking in “liturgical and spiritual sanity.”

    But the Traditional Latin Mass did not give rise to such periods of insanity.

    During periods of Latin Church insanity, the orthodox Latin Church Faithful attached themselves to the Traditional Latin Mass precisely to maintain their liturgical and spiritual sanity.

    The Faithful attached to the TLM waited for the majority of Latin Church bishops and priests to return to sanity.

    The same applies today.

    To which Mass, the Novus Ordo or TLM, has a great many Faithful attached themselves as they await for widespread liturgical and spiritual sanity to return to the Latin Church?

    It is, of course, to the TLM that Catholics have attached themselves to maintain liturgical and spiritual sanity.

    Simply put: The Novus Ordo, as soon as it was introduced to Latin Catholics, emptied parishes.

    The Traditional Latin Mass doesn’t empty parishes. The TLM attracts Catholics, particularly young Catholics, and spurs vocations.

    We will restore liturgical and spiritual sanity to the Latin Church only when we acknowledge that the Novus Ordo Mass, valid but weak in many regards, is the problem.

    The collapse of the Latin Church is tied to the Novus Ordo.

    The restoration of the Latin Church is tied to the Traditional Latin Mass.

    That is why we must pray that the Holy Father returns to the TLM, the Mass that he was ordained to offer.

  37. Justin says:

    Tom – I don’t see why you come on a Catholic blog and attack Catholics and our Holy Father. It’s just not the done thing. I’m sure there must be a blog where you can comment on your religion.

  38. Tom says:

    “Let’s not fall into the mistake of looking to the liturgy to do what only the Holy Spirit can do. That’s the mistaken notion that got us into our current liturgical mess. (I’m not saying the liturgy doesn’t help.)”

    The abandonment of the TLM launched the Latin Church into Her post-Vatican II state of collapse.

    Throughout Catholic history, attachment to the TLM has provided the Faithful with the ability to withstand the insanity that Churchmen, during this or that time, inflicted upon the Church.

    The Novus Ordo, while valid, features watered-down prayers and tradition-shattering novelties…and is unable to instill the Faithful with the same powerful sense of Catholicism that flows from the Traditional Latin Mass.

    The “liturgical mess” that you mentioned is tied to the state of Roman liturgy.

    The abandonment of the TLM in favor of the Novus Ordo launched the collapse of the Latin Church.

    The Pope(s) must return to the TLM to lift the Latin Church from Her state of collapse.

    Perhaps they will not do so. If that is the case, then the Latin Church’s state of collapse will continue…actually worsen.

  39. Bill says:

    “the demise of the Novus Ordo.”

    Hmm, I don’t see any evidence for that at all. Incidentally, I do not buy this so-called “Marshall Plan” of replacing the NO with TLM. Where is the evidence for this? While some of you are quite vocal in your support of the TLM, I would venture to say that a majority of the Catholic world would not want a return to the TLM. It’s just not in the cards. Priests, as busy as most of them are, aren’t going to have time to learn how to celebrate the TLM.

    Since April of 2005, some have been waiting for the Pope to celebrate the TLM. It just hasn’t happened. You can keep hoping against hope, but I highly doubt the Pope will celebrate TLM publicly. If I am missing something, please tell me. I haven’t heard any hints and Msgr. Guido Marini himself said his office has no plans for a TLM.

    I may not like everything about the NO, but I can at least appreciate what Paul VI was trying to do (I know some of you would rather pretend Paul VI never existed and would rather sweep him under the rug). For example, on balance, I think having vernacular (while keeping the essentials in Latin), is a good thing. Indeed as Paul VI said, “Understanding of prayer is worth more than the silken garments in which it is royally dressed. Participation by the people is worth more—particularly participation by modern people, so fond of plain language which is easily understood and converted into everyday speech. If the divine Latin language kept us apart from the children, from youth, from the world of labor and of affairs, if it were a dark screen, not a clear window, would it be right for us fishers of souls to maintain it as the exclusive language of prayer and religious intercourse? What did St. Paul have to say about that? Read chapter 14 of the first letter to the Corinthians: “In Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Corinthians 14:19).”

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6601119.HTM

  40. Matt Q says:

    tOM WROTE:

    “The abandonment of the TLM launched the Latin Church into Her post-Vatican II state of collapse.

    Throughout Catholic history, attachment to the TLM has provided the Faithful with the ability to withstand the insanity that Churchmen, during this or that time, inflicted upon the Church.

    The Novus Ordo, while valid, features watered-down prayers and tradition-shattering novelties…and is unable to instill the Faithful with the same powerful sense of Catholicism that flows from the Traditional Latin Mass.

    The “liturgical mess” that you mentioned is tied to the state of Roman liturgy.

    The abandonment of the TLM in favor of the Novus Ordo launched the collapse of the Latin Church.

    The Pope(s) must return to the TLM to lift the Latin Church from Her state of collapse.

    Perhaps they will not do so. If that is the case, then the Latin Church’s state of collapse will continue…actually worsen.”

    )(

    TOM, YOU SAID THAT BEAUTIFULLY AND TO THE POINT. You know what this is analogous to, AIDS and the liberals and stupids who refuse to accept and recognize behavior has its consequences. They continually argue remedies which in fact keep the problem alive, advocating practices which do not solve or alleviate the issue. They advocate “protection,” or “safe-sex” practices. Our Cardinal Mahony said to this, it’s all false. He said “safe sex” is like “safe drugs.” Neither is safe, moral nor recreational! The Liturgy is the same.

    The continued advocacy of a liturgical practice which by its nature is–AGAIN AND AGAIN AND REPEATED AGAIN–theologically and hermanuetically FALSE. The Holy Father himself has said this to my satisfaction. While the Novus Ordo is juridically legit, there is no enforceable mandate to ensure it is said with any standard of sacredness or Tradition, curbing any possible creative abuse which may arise at the priests’ whim. We know the Novus Ordo is esentially celebrated by whim.

    To be fair, I do believe the Novus Ordo can be rehabilitated. I have been to one or two intimate Novus Ordos which were really calming and uplifting. That said, I don’t think the Novus Ordo as is is the answer to the ongoing crisis in the Church. On its own, it is what it is, but the Novus Ordo the way it is now, is the lightning rod, the handle by which sloth, abuse and a terrible spiritual malaise has overcome the Church and the multitude of souls adrift in secular-humanist stagnation.

    Yes, how we pray is how we believe. If one does not pray with Truth and Sacredness, all the more likely one does not believe in Truth or Sacredness, hence the death grip on the Novus Ordo as is.

    God bless.

  41. Humilitas says:

    Dear Fr. Z.

    Wonderful news from the Diocese of Venice Florida.

    A third Latin Mass will be celebrated on the first and third Sunday of the month beginning May 4th at 5:30 PM at Resurrection Church, 8051 Cypress Lake Drive, Ft. Myers FL. Hopefully, if enough people come, perhaps it can be celebrated on a weekly basis.

    A priest from the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter will be celebrating the Mass.

    http://www.fssp.com/main/locations.htm#Diocese%20of%20Venice

    There are weekly Masses in Sarasota and Naples Florida and this is the third Latin Mass approved by Bishop Dewayne for the Diocese of Venice.

    May God grant him many years.

    I would appreciate it if you could make this great news known throughout your website.

    Thank you and may God’s blessing be upon you.

  42. Marcus says:

    Being involved in the event that is the subject of this thread, it would be delightful to see the commentary pertain to the actual subject, instead of going off on the usual liturgical debates.

    I often think many folks throughout history who have fallen off the boat were technically right in their complaint, but had no patience to let the Spirit do it’s work, but instead insisted on seeing their plan accomplished in their time. We must continuously pray for the gifts of fortitude and massive doses of charity to see this through. Mostly, let’s be grateful for all that has happened so far!

    But since we’re there:

    After participating in the TLM for a few years now, I really can’t see why anyone would want to change it, although I have no issue with the council’s suggestions. I just wish they would’ve worked out and agreed on the changes during the council and not left it to committees later.

    Still, Fr. Orr celebrated a Latin NO Mass for Christmas Day with the works – ad orientem, chant, incense, bells, the Roman Canon, etc. and the only thing that stood out to me was saying “Non sum dignus…” only once instead of thrice. It was beautiful. So, the NO can be celebrated with all the glory, laud, and honor due our God, but sadly, just usually isn’t.

  43. Marcus says:

    Back to the subject:

    I wonder how many parishes & TLM groups have attempted this kind of “over-the-top” musical enterprise. What kind of music was used? Any recordings available? I think we’re going to try to at least get a sound if not a video of this Mass. Any other suggestions?

    From what I know (granted, not much) the Coronation Mass is about the only Mozart work that you can reasonably use in an actual Mass. We still expect it to run about 2 glorious hours.

    Haydn’s Little Organ Mass has a Credo that lasts about 45 seconds, with about 4 overlapping voices each singing different parts of the Credo. I’ve always wondered how he got away with that! Probably because it’s beautiful. As a prayer, though, it’s definitely not very “followable”.

    I’ve suggested to our choir director that we try a Palestrina piece for Christmas. We’ll see…

  44. Bill: I don’t see any evidence for that at all. Incidentally, I do not buy this so-called “Marshall Plan” of replacing the NO with TLM. Where is the evidence for this?

    What you need to do is spend more time reading here.

    I have never proposed anywhere that what I nickname, by analogy, a “Marshall Plan” for the Church is a plan to replace the NO with the TLM. That is not it all.

  45. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: Throughout Catholic history, attachment to the TLM has provided the Faithful with the ability to withstand the insanity that Churchmen, during this or that time, inflicted upon the Church.

    If that’s so, then it seems God may have been lacking in wisdom when He let the traditional Latin Mass develop over the course of time from the early Greek and Aramaic protoliturgies of the Church instead of creating it wholly formed ex nihilo in the days of the Apostles.

    As for insanity inflicted on the Church, to be fair we must acknowledge that it cuts both ways — I’d also say that the liturgy, whether of the Latin Rite or another rite, has also given Churchmen the ability to withstand the insanity that the Faithful have inflicted upon the Church from time to time.

  46. Treva Wishart says:

    “All are welcome to view the TLM…….& hear the music……” I thought that the sole purpose of the TLM was to publicly worship Almighty God. It is utter disrespect, OR WORSE, to go to it out of curiosity or to hear the music. Such people absolutely shouldn’t be going, for many reasons. How terribly sad to see this written, (& by a priest!!) I knew I shouldn’t have come to this site.

  47. Treva Wishart says:

    Oops, sorry, I see now that it wasn’t a priest who wrote for people to come & VIEW the TLM & hear the music. & sorry I ventured to this site.

  48. Humilitas says:

    Sorry that I interupted this thread last night with news about the Latin Mass in Ft. Myers FL, but I was so excited that I had to tell someone and didn’t know where to post the info.

    It won’t happen again.

  49. Tom says:

    Justin wrote: “I don’t see why you come on a Catholic blog and attack Catholics and our Holy Father. It’s just not the done thing. I’m sure there must be a blog where you can comment on your religion.”

    Your response is emotional. I have not attacked the Holy Father and Catholics.

    Father Z and numerous posters, for example, have expressed dismay at Cardinals, bishops and priests who have not moved quickly to offer the TLM.

    Do you consider their “critical” remarks an attack upon Catholics?

    When Churchmen and even posters to this blog have expressed harsh criticism toward the post-Vatican II Popes’ disasterous liturgical “reform,” do you count such remarks as “attacks” upon the Pope and Catholics?

    Has Pope Benedict XVI offered the Traditional Latin Mass publicly?

    Justin, I’m sorry that you attacked me.

    I guess that you are permitted to attack a Catholic.

  50. Tom says:

    “What you need to do is spend more time reading here. I have never proposed anywhere that what I nickname, by analogy, a “Marshall Plan” for the Church is a plan to replace the NO with the TLM. That is not it all.”

    I don’t need to spend more time reading here, Father. I need to be precise.

    You have not claimed that the supposed “Marshall Plan” is designed to replace the Novus Ordo with the TLM. Correct.

    However, I have had certain posters inform me that the Pope doesn’t not care for the Novus Ordo and has initiated a “Marshall Plan” to accomplish that task.

    Again…you have not stated that such a plan exists.

    Therefore, to address the claim advanced by certain posters…I don’t believe that Pope Benedict XVI intends to shelve the Novus Ordo.

    I believe that His Holiness is committed to the Novus Ordo.

    The majority of bishops believe that the Novus Ordo has ushered the Church into a new springtime.

    I believe that based upon the Pope’s actions (same with the bishops) that the Novus Ordo is here to stay…at least for decades.

    That is why I believe that the Latin Church will continue to remain in the state of collapse that the post-Vatican II liturgical “refrom” initiated.

    That is my opinion.

    The Novus Ordo is the problem…the Traditional Latin Mass is the
    solution.

    Finally…to reiterate…Father Z is correct in that he has not claimed that the “Marshall Plan” is designed to replace the Novus Ordo with the TLM.

    I made a mistake for which I apologize.

  51. Tom says:

    Jordan Potter wrote: “As for insanity inflicted on the Church, to be fair we must acknowledge that it cuts both ways—I’d also say that the liturgy, whether of the Latin Rite or another rite, has also given Churchmen the ability to withstand the insanity that the Faithful have inflicted upon the Church from time to time.”

    Fine.

    The bottom line is that we are alive today. “Insanity” initiated by Churchmen and/or the laity during another period is history. Discussing Church history is interesting and useful.

    But the bottom line is that we are alive today and the post-Vatican II Latin Church is in a state of collapse.

    Therefore, what will we do to lift the Latin Church from Her state of collapse?

    Said collapse began as soon as the Novus Ordo replaced the Traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo was presented to the bishops during the 1967 Synod in Rome. Various bishops warned that if required by Pope Paul VI to institute the Novus Ordo, they would empty parishes within their dioceses.

    The Novus Ordo emptied parishes…and the collapse of the post-Vatican II Latin Church continues.

    With few exceptions, the only signs of hope in the Latin Church concern parishes that have instituted “Extraordinary Form” Masses.

    The Novus Ordo is valid, but incredibly weak compared to the TLM when it comes to conveying the Catholic Faith to the Faithful.

    The Novus Ordo is the problem…the Traditional Latin Mass is the solution.

    I am sorry that certain posters view such remarks as “attacks” upon “Pope(s) and Catholics.” But I agree with such Churchmen as Monsignor Klaus Gamber (Requiescat In Pace) regarding the post-Vatican II liturgical “reform.”

    I don’t know whether Father Z’s argument that a “Marshall Plan” exists to combat the Latin Church’s liturgical collapse is valid. (I am not saying that Fr. Z believes that the Holy Father intends to replace the Novus Ordo with the TLM.)

    I welcome Summorum Pontificum and various traditional actions enacted by Pope Benedict XVI.

    I believe that the Holy Father is a holy and great man…the same with Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

    However, any Papal plan that does not involve the eventual elimination of the Novus Ordo will not result in the overall renewal of the Latin Church.

    Again…the Novus Ordo is the problem…the Traditional Latin Mass is the solution.

    Pax.

  52. Tom says:

    Father Z wrote: “I have never proposed anywhere that what I nickname, by analogy, a “Marshall Plan” for the Church is a plan to replace the NO with the TLM. That is not it all.”

    That is why, Father, I do not believe that the “Marshall Plan” in question will not usher in the overall renewal of the Latin Church.

    I welcome Pope Benedict XVI’s Summorum Pontificum.

    I welcome the Holy Father’s employment of Latin, Gregorian Chant, ornate vestments…etc.

    However, I believe that the Holy Father is committed to the Novus Ordo. I believe that the Novus Ordo is the problem regarding the Latin Church’s post-Vatican II collapse.

    Therefore, the liturgical and spiritual collapse of the Latin Church will continue.

    TLM communities will certainly prosper liturgically and spiritually.

    But until Pope Benedict XVI (or a future Pope) returns to the Traditional Latin Mass (the Mass that His Holiness was ordained to offer), the overall condition of the Latin Church will, at best, improve slightly.

    I pray and hope that Pope Benedict XVI, a holy and great man, will return to the Traditional Latin Mass…the Mass that he was ordained to offer.

    We need the Holy Father to lead the way…to lead us to the Traditional Latin Mass…the Mass of his ordination.

    Please, Holy Father, return to the Traditional Latin Mass.

  53. Marcus says:

    Treva:

    I suppose I understand your sentiment, but it seems completely misguided. This is not a concert, it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I think that is made clear in the announcement.

    However, it is a wonderful thing, not a terrible thing, that people come to this most-full expression Mass to see and hear the fullness of the Christian faith celebrated for whatever reason, regardless of their faith circumstances.

    In fact, you answered your own objection: this is a public celebration, and I can’t imagine anyone, cleric or layman declaring that some people are not welcome to attend and participate at whatever level of which they are capable. In fact, the church sign outside of Fr. Orr’s parish reads, “All are welcome!”

    We are not Catholic to greedily hoarde our treasure to ourselves; you are almost certainly aware that “Mass”, “missa”, & “mission” are intimately related. This Mass is an extraordinary proclamation of the truths of the faith to East Tennessee, which is about 3% Catholic.

    People who have not heard or assented to the fullness of the truths of the faith might be moved by the Spirit to begin that journey, but it is unlikely that someone would come around to being Catholic without having attending the liturgy that expresses that belief. Everyone needs some help in coming to faith, and that invitation may take many forms. The best of sacred music is such a powerful force that it certainly could attract and lead one to deeper questions about the truths of faith behind it.

    I think you should be delighted, not hysterical.