This is from Diogenes at Off The Record:
Janice Sevre-Duszynska, who identifies herself as a "Roman Catholic womanpriest," has chastised the Vatican in an op-ed column written for the Lexington (Kentucky) Herald-Leader. The title encapsulates her demand: "Don’t equate women priests with pedophiles."
Actually I agree with her (or at least with that short statement of her argument– which, I confess, is all that I read). There are very distinct differences between pedophiles and female Catholic priests. Offhand I can think of two:
- Nobody ever writes a newspaper column identifying himself as a pedophile.
- Pedophiles exist.
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Maybe it’s my morbid sense of humor, but I laughed out loud at this one! Thank you father!
Hahaha!!! Ditto what Luke said!
Sin is sin, no matter what the matter. Womenpriests lead souls to apostasy and heresy, which the Church has always seen as the most serious sins, even worse that the abuse of children. So, which group is more dangerous, pedophiles or womenpriests.
Yawn. Actually, the picture of her in front of …. ah, her altar, I guess …. looks like she’s dressed as much for bed as worship. Very discretely, though, glad to see.
That was great! Thank you Father.
I always wonder what these women say about Christ not having women as Apostles… Do they think He was sexist Himself or just too weak to fight the sexism of the time and institute the Sacrament in its fullness? Or did he not address it because He could not foresee it as being a problem (thus making Him both sexist AND not omniscient)? I’ve asked supporters of women “ordination” before but people just seem to get mad at me… and never answer the question.
Suzie: My thoughts as well. Any time I’ve come across the argument for female ordination (usually in my previous parish and, shamefully, amongst the “catechists”), I’ve made the point that Christ only chose men for Apostles. Their answer? “Well, that was just the time period.” Seriously? You really think he wouldn’t have chosen women if he’d wanted to? Great liberator that he was, overturning the tables in the Temple and whatnot, and he’s not going to fight the man on women’s behalf? Give me a break.
Of course, these are also the catechists that say things like “Mary Magdalene was Jesus’ best disciple” in front of impressionable children. And she meant that as in best even over the Apostles. I swear, if my jaw could have hit the floor, it’d’ve gone through it.
why do ‘womynpriests’ have such a bad dress sense? I’ve seen cats (sorry cats)that have as much chance of saying Mass and are better dressed
It’s always exciting to see what kind of mischief you former flower-child baby boomers get into after retirement :).
Not only does she look like she took the bedspread and cut a hole in the middle, she’s got “bed head” too.
And a distressingly bad and brassy dye job as well.
Where do they find these people?
You guys just keep going down this path –
it will ensure that the average Catholics will loose respect for you.
The way Father keeps ridiculing women shows how much he is out of touch – not much else.
Do you think to keep making fun of these obviously engaged and caring catholic womens appearance
will get you any place good? Do you think to equate criminal sexual behavior with quite a few good
catholic women and men’s desire in 2010 for a larger role of women and layity within the church will do your cause much good?
Father, Do you hear a whining sound? Something like an irritating whiny sound…. at about 11:20?
Oh…wait a minute… it’s stopped…
What exactly do they have against priestess that they say woman priest?
Shouldn’t it be “wymyn priests”?
ROFL!!!!
Really, and all kidding aside, the more upset these people make us, the more we should pray for them.
Re: mockery
Father isn’t mocking women. He’s mocking certain gullible women who arrogantly think they’re clever. He mocks men who do the same thing. So does the book of Psalms:
“But you, Lord, laugh at them. You scoff at all the nations.”
“The Lord will laugh at them, for He sees that his day is coming.”
And then there’s Proverbs: “If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.”
mndad
I am sorry that you have been treated so rudely here.
I have to say that although I do not agree with women priests, I do not share the tone or heart of the average commenter on this blog. They seem to miss the great wound that has been given to women through the world’s exploitation of them, over the centuries and how this might send them down wrong paths, that are not where their destiny in God’s Church lies.
I would direct all women to Mary.I found my meaning and affirmation as a woman when I met her. I would be terrified to engage with people such as I meet here normally, but with Our Lady’s love in my heart, I have courage and can tell you, it is available for each women. You will discover your true identity, and be affirmed. I am sure this is just as true for men, as it is for women. Please forgive these harsh commenters, they know not what they do. It might be one of their children wandering off the path one day, and they would pray for a compassionate and patient Catholic to go after them, and bring them back to the fold.
This place is more like a baying pack at times, than a fold.
And you lot ‘ere can all call me what you like, I’ll just refer you to My Mother! As Father Corapi says, she wears combat boots!
You guys just keep going down this path – it will ensure that the average Catholics will loose respect for you.
The way Father keeps ridiculing women shows how much he is out of touch – not much else.
“Do you think to keep making fun of these obviously engaged and caring catholic womens appearance
will get you any place good?”
Welcome to the discussion. I hope the rest of everyone can forgive me for taking your comments seriously.
No, I don’t think making fun of their appearance will “get you any place good”, but since increasingly our society refuses to address issues of actual substance (say, in the difference between two men or two women being “joined” in “marriage” and a man and a woman being so joined) one must try to engage the discussion at whatever level IS possible. Why, perchance, do you assert so baldly that these women are
“obviously engaged and caring catholic women”?
Do you think to equate criminal sexual behavior with quite a few good
catholic women and men’s desire in 2010 for a larger role of women and layity within the church will do your cause much good?
Criminal sexual behavior is, obviously, wrong. When NAMBLA succeeds in making it no longer illegal, would it be fairer to equate the two, since neither will be illegal in American law at that point, but both will remain against the moral teachings of Holy Mother Church?
I ran into the desire for this “larger role” in an interview given by Katherine Jeffords-Schiori, but it didn’t mean traditional participation (say, Mother Teresa’s work, or MOther Seton’s, or something similar) but rather participation in areas which are inappropriate and impossible. Whether you like it (or I like it, for that matter, since our individual opinions don’t matter on this point) wanting women to be priests is simply impossible – as impossible as men being pregant. Perhaps you should examine what it is that you mean by a larger role.
A. There were priestesses all over the place in the 1st Century, if Christ wanted to institute a priestesshood, He would have done so without drawing any ire of the pagans.
B. As someone wrote above women can no much more become priests than men can get pregnant, and when they try it becomes a horrible abomination (remember the “pregnant man” from a few months ago?)
C. In EVERY SINGLE instance, The Church has liberated women throughout history, not subjugated them, as one of the posters above has written. Society at large had oppressed them, and once The Church learned of it (by missionaries or the news reaching the clergy) She put a stop to it.
Since everyone now equates any Catholic priest with pedophilia, I think if these wymynpriests want to play priest they had better get used to being treated by the general public as such. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen, and many other old sayings.
re: “Father isn’t mocking women. He’s mocking certain gullible women who arrogantly think they’re clever. He mocks men who do the same thing.”
I think the point is whether it is charitable to mock anyone. My answer would be “no”.
It may play well for the home crowd (not that that should be a consideration), but it’s more likely to offend rather than convert those sitting on the fence, much less those on the other side.
While I think that the wymynprysts are pitiable (and wrong), I don’t think that folks who are unsure of why they are wrong are going to be convinced by the argument that because they are heretics, they are morally more reprehensible than pedophiles. Just my .02.
Good and caring Catholic women don’t campaign for women’s priests. The Church has said there can be no women priests. Good Catholics obey the Church which has spoken on this matter definitively and the matter is not open to discussion. If it pains you, take up your cross and follow Christ. Despite a surface image of goodness and caring, underneath is a core of disobedience, pride, and spite against the male sex. Whilst we must draw attention to the errors and deceit of the enemy (who uses men and women to do his work), we should not mock anyone, because I believe mockery belongs to the Devil. However, what these women are doing is gravely sinful and they should cease, and put their efforts into a holy lifestyle and dying to self-will, which is what the women ‘priests’ thing is all about: self-will. ‘Not Thy will, but my will be done.’
A mockery? Don’t be so serious. Also, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t, but that womyn just did.
I mean – pedophile? Talk about sensitivity or fairness, this womyn is just mean or stupid or both. But Fr. didn’t take offense and treated it like a game. So, it’s on – a friendly repartee if you will. Please save the drama for your momma.
Also, if God wanted women to lead His people, He could have chosen a matriarchal tribe in Polynesia or Metronesia to be His chosen people or included the Queen of the Apostles during the Last Supper or become a women Himself during the Incarnation. But He did not.
For more manly Catholicism, go to http://divine-ripples.blogspot.com/ that is if you won’t be too touchy with the truth.
Good=Christlike in obedience and humility. Caring=Politically Correct phrase which means nothing in and of itself; probably means emotional love rather than rational love. Pedophile=Person who sins horribly against children, using them as objects. Womenpriests=State of Fantasy adopted by radical apostatized and heretical feminists who want to change the Teaching of the Church and the Priesthood as established by Christ. Both pedophiles and heretics use people for their own passions, desires, and ambition. Sin is sin.
I do not see anything uncharitable is definitions. If a caring woman wants to follow Christ, she obeys Holy Mother Church.
meant to write “in definitions”.
Engaged and caring women (and men) adhere to Church teaching–they don’t challenge it.
On a lighter note, the photo looks like Pelosi in a gown made by Omar the tent maker.
mndad, shadowlands . . .
Here’s the deal.
This woman (aided and abetted by the newspaper) is recycling an accusation that has been disproved over and over AND over again.
The reason for the linkage (such that it is) of the pretended ordination of women and sexual abuse committed by priests is solely jurisdictional. In other words, the same tribunal exercises jurisdiction over these offenses.
This mere jurisdictional fact no more “equates” the two offenses than the fact that a Superior Court’s constitutional jurisdiction extends to both shoplifting and first-degree murder cases means that the state constitution is “equating” shoplifting and murder.
This simple fact, however, does not interest this woman, her supporters, or her aiders and abetters at the newspaper.
They would much rather lie and misrepresent the facts in order to beat the Church. The fact that somebody who calls herself Catholic wilfully lies to attack “her” Church should evoke outrage.
Since outrage has gotten us nowhere, many of us resort to humor or mockery. And yes, there’s a bitter edge to it because what they are doing is fundamentally wrong and they do not seem to care.
What is Roman in the so-called “Roman Catholic womanpriests”?
Why aren’t they “Anglican Communion womanpriests”?
What is the theological link between said “womanpriests” and the Roman Church?
What is the attachment, the devotion, the obedience, the communion, between the self-proclaimed “womanpriests” and the Bishop of the See of Rome?
mndad,
I’m going to quote a very wise man that I very much respect and say, “Go back to Hell, our Church belongs to Christ.”
Thank you Chris for your kind comment.
Yes I do understand that many see it along the lines of ‘ women can not become priests just like men can not become pregnant’.
I am sure 100 years ago a good number of people (women included) would have found not much wrong with a sentence like this:
“Women can not vote just like men can not become pregnant”
I hope it does not come as a huge revelation to many here that this kind of argument is rapidly loosing steam with the average Catholic. While I disagree with Dr. Eric and think that not “everyone equates Catholic priests with pedophilia”
– let’s give people more credit -I do sense that this sort of thing adds to the general disillusion with the institution.
In essence Church is not seen primarely as holy and godly but more seen as run by flawed human beings.
The next logical step from this is to see words from Rome less as inspired wise words coming from the Holy Spirit but as
potentially flawed words of uninspired leaders.
I do certainly perfectly well understand that most here have a deep desire to get back to the days of deep holy appreciation for all that Rome/God had as advice for us – problem is one can not dictate Catholics into the proper mindset.
In reality you push the very people you so desire to convince to follow back to the proper path away.
To shadowlands points.
Yes our church has done much more for women than any other mainstream religion on this planet.
I have been for example blessed to witness that point throughout my life observing my devout mother and father relating particularly to the Virgin Mary and having her guide them through their life filled with prayer and hard work.
I have to tell you, my mother recently uttered that it would be nice to see more women take leadership positions – now granted this is Germany – perhaps those guys over ‘there’ are lost sheep from a proper orthodox convert American perspective like the good Fr. Z’s – but still while folks like myself can be perhaps brushed aside rather easy Catholics in the mold of my parents do have a voice that you guys better do not ignore.
And I tell you they will see it that our church will have higher number of priests – men, women, married or not.
Quality of Priests counts for real Catholics not an ideal that did not work out so well and actually has lead to a disproportionate percentage of unimpressive Priests with same sex tendencies and unresolved issues.
Ok, so I may have to do some Purgatory time for laughing at the word “wymyn”.
mndad,
At the risk of sounding political myself, “There you go again . . . ”
You just can’t seem to stop equating the teachings of the Church with politics.
The Church is not a democracy, or even representational government. The Church does not base her teachings on popular opinion polls, the history of women’s suffrage, the ‘spirit of the Age’, or what your mom (or my mom for that matter) thinks is “nice”.
If you want a representational government church,
http://www.emmanuelwakefield.org/images/EpiscopalChurchWelcomesYou.jpg
But we see how well that’s working out, don’t we?
mndad:
Perhaps you can prove a little point for me. I don’t often get the chance to ask people.
Do you accept the Church’s sexual moral teachings, including the rejection of homosexuality, fornication, contraception, and divorce?
It’s just a hunch, but I have this idea in my head that the people campaigning for women ‘priests’ also reject other core Church teaching. It would certainly follow the trend of rejection of Church teaching and God-given authority.
Can you confirm that for me one way or another?
mndad,
As a side point, the number of homosexual Catholic priests was substantially increased by misconduct in the seminaries in direct contradiction to Catholic teaching.
In other words, ignoring the wisdom of the Church and following the dictates of political correctness and ‘modern psychotherapy’ is what got certain bishops into that ephebophilia mess in the first place.
Before claiming that priestesses will somehow solve this problem, you should note that every mainline denomination that has allowed female ministers is now wrestling with the problem of homosexual ministers and homosexual ‘marriage’. E.g. ECUSA, ELCA, and now the Methodists.
This is not happenstance. Think about why one follows necessarily from the other. It has to do in large part with mixing politics and church governance as though a church was merely a county commission or a state legislature.
Magpie,
Our messages crossed in the ether, but we are really making the same point, I think.
AnAmericanMother,
I’m pretty sure you and I followed the same link on NewAdvent today. :)
Make mockery and that feeling of banging one’s head up against a wall, a thing of the past with this Power filled and empowering prayer! Time of Mercy must end soon, be sure to get yours before it’s too late and only justice remains.
“I desire that you know more profoundly the love that burns in My Heart for souls, and you will understand this when you meditate upon My Passion. Call upon My mercy on behalf of sinners; I desire their salvation. When you say this prayer, with a contrite heart and with faith on behalf of some sinner, I will give him the grace of conversion.”
This is the prayer:
O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You.”(Diary, 186-187)
AnAmericanMother,
Would you not agree that the said woman-priestess is also attacking the Church by willful disobedience. thereby confusing some of the laity and causing scandal?
Luke,
Actually, not. I was going from (1) my legal experience; (2) my experience in the Episcopal “church”.
Supertradmum,
Absolutely. They are disobedient and thereby causing scandal, but deliberate, provocative lying seems even worse to me. Somebody may be honestly mistaken (or invincibly ignorant) and disobey, but they know they are lying even if they don’t believe they are disobedient.
Mndad,
I’ll read the rest of what you wrote as time allows. Let me come back, however, to the first point. You’re quite correct that a great many people equate unequal things, with results which range from the comical to the tragic or even pitiable.
It is the claim of the Magisterium of the Church that it is physically and ontologically impossible for a woman to be ordained. A woman could vote, whether this was, is, or will be a good idea, in the sense that she has ability to mark the ballot and in the sense that, being sentient, she can choose to mark one candidate or another. A man, by contrast, can not, in nature, become pregnant. He’s never going to be able to get pregnant, no matter how much he empathizes with his wife’s labor pains.
Could the Church change her stand on this issue? No. Do many people like this reality? No. Is it reality nonetheless? Yes.
Now, as to your observation that a great many Catholics no longer accept the reality of this (and other) teachings. You’re quite correct, yet again. It bears asking how this situation arose. Any intelligent answer CAN’T begin from the perspective of “growing up”, because that assumes that the original teaching is immature and that those who accept it were (and are) intellectually immature. When a teenager rejects instructions from his parents not to consume large quantities of alcohol and, subsequently, wraps his car around a telephone pole, it isn’t fair to blame the parents for not warning him, nor is it intelligent to claim that the teenager is now enlightened enough not to follow his parents’ advice. If this image strike you as deliberately inflammatory, I would ask you to consider the arguments made for the last 50 years about why people don’t need to follow Rome’s instructions on … gosh, fill in the blank. Those who don’t like the Magisterial teaching have to claim that it no longer applies because we live in a modern, pluralistic, mature democratic society — and sound like so many whining teens when they do so. (I have taught teens for most of my career).
Here’s a better question, for you to address: why is there such a pressing need to change the teaching? I won’t prejudge your answer, but will let you answer it.
God bless,
Chris
What is it that makes some women believe they have a calling to the priesthood? Neither the priesthood nor the religious life is a career choice, they’re both vocations. I find it hard to believe God would want to disrupt 2,000 years of tradition by “calling” a woman to be ordained. The whole matter of equality of the sexes has no place in a Church whose foundation is Christ, Who embodied humility. None of us are more important than His Church. I would hope that if a woman truly felt she had a “right” to ordaination, she would put the welfare of the Church ahead of her misguided desires and imitate Christ in His humility and His submission and obedience to His Father. When we seek to glorify ourselves, which is what I believe these women are doing, we fall further and further away from Him. I wish there was some way to get this across to women who are so determined to have their way they don’t care if the Church is weakened in the process. They seem to forget that the greatest women in the Church’s history were those who sought out the lowest places in society. Mother Teresa was never ordained, yet few, if any of us, will do as much as she did to glorify God, and she did so from the slums of Calcutta.
When I attended Notre Dame, two sisters from active orders told me that they felt “a call to the priesthood”. I asked them who was calling them, as it could not be God. There are many “spiritual experiences” which come from the devil and not from God, and any impetus which leads us to disobedience is obviously not from God.
I saw their “calls” as likened to the great heretics, who felt “called” to “reform” the Church, and fell into perdition: on a short list, we can name Wycliffe, Hus, Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, Knox, and many, many more.
Well as these womyn demand the ‘right’ to be priests, I DEMAND the right to be admited to the Convent !!! how one squares being a man with being a Bride of Christ I have no idea but who cares I shall break new eccessial ground……… hang on the anglicans have already have male nuns
Seriously as a convert I just weep over these poor, sad women who feel the need to defy Holy Mother Church.
That these two offenses were listed in the same document does not “equate” them at all. Look at the Ten Commandments. Is God equating, for example, murder and not keeping the Sabbath?
Father is not ridiculing women! He is pointing out the humor in the error of these women’s beliefs. People so often confuse attacking or joking about a person’s opinion with attacking the person.
Chris Garton-Zavesky.
I reckon you make a great commenter/apologist for the Church’s teachings. You don’t ridicule, you try and help people understand. Fear of ridicule can push people into protective groups of fellow soothsayers. I don’t peronally find Father’s words mocking either, he has to teach us, and has the God given authority aand commission to call out error. How he does that is between him, his conscience and his superiors.
As commenters, I believe we must try to not fight each other, by justifying the subjct matter of the argument. If we can’t debate respectfully, just stop. Do something else, pray for those who are persecuting you. Our wrestle is against the powers of darkness. If a searching soul needs rescuing from error, do not presume to have the authority to order that soul into hell, as one commenter demanded ( Luke). Christ will treat us, as we have treated others. I think that’s still Catholic teaching?
If we claim a sensible and everlasting concrete truth, let’s try and use basic respect in proclaiming it. People will see God then, rather than angry embittered self righteous people. And if you are tired of showing love to sinners, spend an hour contemplating Our Lord on the cross, and Our Lady, who said yes to this immense suffering for her, and her son, because of you and me. Do you or I have that type of love and patience with fellow sinners? Would you let your son or daughter die for my wretched sins? We can spare a little patience with a sinner, an extra mile of compassion surely, if the Mother of God suffered so much for our children’s sakes? The time of justice for us all, is not yet here. Use mercy like an ocean, in the meantime. Go and have a bath in it, so you begin to get to like the feel of it! Jesus invites all sinners to immerse themselves in His Mercy, what a price He has paid for us!
Thank you, shadowlands, for your well-balanced comment to mndad.
Your post inspired me to always say a prayer to the Holy Spirit before posting a comment myself, asking for the grace of not being uncharitable towards others in my comment.