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“This blog is like a fusion of the Baroque ‘salon’ with its well-tuned harpsichord around which polite society gathered for entertainment and edification and, on the other hand, a Wild West “saloon” with its out-of-tune piano and swinging doors, where everyone has a gun and something to say. Nevertheless, we try to point our discussions back to what it is to be Catholic in this increasingly difficult age, to love God, and how to get to heaven.” – Fr. Z
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YOUR RECENT COMMENTS
- Dismas: In a word, no. I expect a poorer ratio of courageous , faithful bishops than was tallied in England around 1534. Courage, like any other virtue, becomes flaccid and atrophied when not...
- philosophicallyfrank: We should not be surprised by what is a continuall y growing effort to destroy the Church. There have been two Apparition s of the Blessed Mother since WWII when She foret...
- Dismas: What, no “Meh ” or “I 8217;m not touching this with a thirty foot pole” ; options?
- philosophicallyfrank: We tend to be critical of many who add & subtract from what the Ordinary Form was suppose to be; so, we, who appreciate the Extraordin ary Form, need to seek desired...
- Anita Moore, O.P.(lay): In countries that have purported to outlaw the seal of the confession al it will be even worse than we think. Because the only way for the government to know a priest has...
- teomatteo: On an all together different note: that counter top appears to be, Saint Cecilia, comes outta s.america. i think.
- frjimt: From the office today: for the honor of him who lives us, it is proper to obey w/out hypocrisy; for a man does not so much deceive the bishop he can see as try to receive the bishop he...
- Ave Maria: Oh if only they had been suppressed again before we had a Jesuit pope! So many of them and many of their institutio ns are a scandal and a danger to the faith.
- HvonBlumenthal: The suppressio n of an order doesn’t mean that good priests are tossed out with the bathwater, merely that they would be welcomed in a healthier order; I find Anneliese’ s remark...
- Malta: These religious in my state are preserving the faith: http://www .ourladyof guadalupem onastery.c om/
- Malta: The Jesuits annoy me, not en masse, but the hierarchy on up to someone in the Vatican. They have a superior attitude which rings me the wrong way. When I was a Senior Trial Prosecutor I...
- dmflinn: May the Lord welcome him into eternal rest.
- APX: Has Cardinal Burke said anything on the matter? He used to have a very close associatio n with the USACV when he was still an archbishop .
- JesusFreak84: I saw someone comment on Twitter that there should be “Jes uits of the Strict Observance .” As long as strict means strict, I say go for it and suppress the rest. I do...
- Sconnius: Gandalf the Grey: [reading] The year 3434 of the Second Age. Here follows the account of Issac, the High Vicar of Black Duck, at the finding of the Brew of Power. “It has come to...
- stephen c: I will certainly say a prayer for him. And for Cardinal Mayer, another good priest who probably does not need my prayers. I have had the good fortune to know several good and holy...
- Anneliese: Dave Meconi, Chris Collins, and Mitch Pacwa deserve a little more respect. To equate them to James Martin is insulting.
- Nan: We did that Thursday in MN.
- Arthur McGowan: Better to call attention to such feasts about a month ahead of time. In fact, “Nex t Month̵ 7;s FeastsR 21; should be a regular feature.
- James in Perth: I truly appreciate the courage of the young Fr. Pagliarini to speak up to those priests who were joking about transubsta ntiation. A friend of my own pastor enjoyed saying scandal...
- James in Perth: Eastern Catholics will have their vehicles and other chariots blessed this Sunday in remembranc e of the Holy and Great Prophet Elijah whose simple feast was celebrated yesterd...
- Fr. John Zuhlsdorf: ex seaxe says: did you cast your expert eye over the translatio n Since you seem to want to pick at something, as is apparent from the LINK I included, that is not my transla...
- ex seaxe: I think I would be inclined to ask for the blessing for a vehicle, rather than one which speaks specially of healing. I don’ t quite need a wheelchair yet, but am considerin g...
- Mike: In a restored Church it will be a Greater Double with a vigil and an octave.
- Kathleen10: Amen, may God rest his soul.
CLICK and say your daily offerings!
- 22 July: Mary Magdalene and the Creed at Mass – POLL!
- Can you imagine bishops doing something like this today?
- ASK FATHER: Blessing for a Wheelchair, Stretcher, or Ambulance
- FEAST DAY! 21 July 1773 – Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits!
- R.I.P. Msgr. Camille Perl, once Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”
- And now for your Friday SSPX news!
- WDTPRS – 16th Ordinary Sunday: The Enemy is hunting YOU
- For your consideration…
- The hurly burly of Medieval Studies!
- FLYING ELECTRIC SPACE SPIDERS!
- ASK FATHER: Mass texts for St. Elijah, Old Testament Prophet
- What could possibly go wrong? – UPDATED
- YOUR GOOD NEWS… and Washington DC’s new Auxiliary Bishop and key priest at Detroit’s major seminary
- Budding young feminist archeologists
- ASK FATHER: Baptism of child of a same-sex couple?
- BOOK RECEIVED: Why Humanae Vitae Is Still Right!
- What the TMSM is doing with your donations
- Who is behind that “Lovely, drippy, syrupy TLM and vocation video” and how are they being treated?
- ACTION ITEM! Pray for Fr. Morris, victim of the homosexualist agenda
- Are we still trustworthy?
- Lovely, drippy, syrupy TLM and vocation video. Then Fr. Z rants about crying.
- The image of the badge of the Vendée came to mind today
- ACTION ITEM! Spiritual Bouquet for Bp. Morlino
- Fr. Z’s Kitchen: Garofolato!
- ASK FATHER: Cremains in funeral Mass, Traditional Requiem
- Pontifical Mass in Lake Charles. A brief and yet optimistic rant from Fr. Z.
- The last 10 minutes…
- 17 July 1794: “Permission to die, Mother?”
- 17 July 2018 – 100 years after
- Cobblestones, new vestments, and swag for Zed Heads
Let us pray…
Grant unto thy Church, we beseech Thee, O merciful God, that She, being gathered together by the Holy Ghost, may be in no wise troubled by attack from her foes. O God, who by sin art offended and by penance pacified, mercifully regard the prayers of Thy people making supplication unto Thee,and turn away the scourges of Thine anger which we deserve for our sins. Almighty and Everlasting God, in whose Hand are the power and the government of every realm: look down upon and help the Christian people that the heathen nations who trust in the fierceness of their own might may be crushed by the power of thine Arm. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. R. Amen.
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Category Archives: PRO MULTIS
The liturgy wars are probably going to flare up again. Not long ago the Pope changed the way that liturgical translations are approved and then, in an informal manner, suggested a few interpretive principles, none of which he has codified. … Continue reading
You may have heard that there is an initiative underway to “review” or “study” vernacular translations of the texts of Mass and the norms according to which they are to be prepared as given in Liturgiam authenticam. This would be … Continue reading
I found this important entry over at the blog of His Hermeueticalness, the great Fr. Finigan:
Over three years ago, I reported on a letter of the congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, dated 17 October 2006, concerning the words … Continue reading
In the Catholic Review of the Archdiocese of Baltimore comes this CNS story.
On 22 October His Excellency Most Rev. Donald W. Trautman, Bishop of Erie, gave a talk at Catholic University of American in which he ran down the new … Continue reading
From a reader:
I’ve not written to you before, but I’m really looking for some help here. I am from England. I go to the Traditional Mass, which I love, at the London Oratory every Saturday and Sunday, and the Latin … Continue reading
Our guest today is the fictional don Camillo Tarocci, (+ A.D. … ?) parish priest of "The Little World" created by Giovanni Guareschi.
I begin a new project, namely, to read stories from The Little World of Don Camillo. These delightful … Continue reading
WDTPRS has soldiered for years on the side of truth and beauty in liturgical translation. We played a not insignificant role in process whereby the accurate translation of "pro multis" in the consecration of the Precious Blood went up the … Continue reading
When I wrote my WDTPRS articles on the Roman Canon, I had to dig deeply into the pro multis question. I did four articles on the formula of consecration of the Precious Blood.
Here is an excerpt from one of those … Continue reading
In 2004 I wrote several articles in The Wanderer about the "pro multis" controversy. I have posted them for your convenience.
The Roman Canon / 1st Eucharistic Prayer – 8: “Simili modo”
The Roman Canon / 1st Eucharistic Prayer – 10: “Simili … Continue reading
What has the liturgy of the Mass actually had in the past? We get Ã¢â‚¬Å“pro vobis et pro multis Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ for you and for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â in the formula of consecration from a blending of the accounts in Mark 14:24 (translated from Greek: Ã¢â‚¬Å“this is my blood of the covenant (diatheke) shed for many (tÃƒÂ² peri pollÃƒÂ´n)Ã¢â‚¬Â) and Matthew 26:28 also says Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â together with Luke 22:20 (translated from Greek: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Likewise also the cup, after the supper, saying Ã¢â‚¬ËœThis cup is the new covenant (diatheke) in my Blood which will be poured out for you.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬Â The choice to do this had theological significance. Our patristic sources, such as the writings of the 4th c Doctor of the Church St. Ambrose of Milan when describing the words of consecration in the Eucharistic liturgy, have pro multis and not pro omnibus, etc. The liturgical formulas were from Scripture.
The 4th c. Doctor of the Church St. Jerome, who translated from Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin giving us a Bible translation called the Vulgata, chose to use pro multis when translating the Greek tÃƒÂ² peri pollÃƒÂ´n (genitive plural of polus) in describing JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ words at the Last Supper. In Greek polus means Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â or Ã¢â‚¬Å“muchÃ¢â‚¬Â or even Ã¢â‚¬Å“mostÃ¢â‚¬Â as in the majority: it does not mean Ã¢â‚¬Å“allÃ¢â‚¬Â. In the ancient Church, no one said Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â. In the Greek Gospel accounts of the Last Supper, Jesus uses a form polus Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â. The liturgical rites of the East retained a form of polus. The rites of the Latin West have ever used pro multis. Continue reading
Looking at the same verses mentioned in the Catechism of the Council of Trent Jeremias, clearly having an axe to grind against someone, says of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“exclusiveÃ¢â‚¬Â use of polloÃƒÂ:
Ã¢â‚¬Å“This is the question whether the broad interpretation of polloÃƒÂ corresponds to the original sense of Mk. 10:45; 14:24 or whether we have here a secondary and more comprehensive understanding designed to avoid the offence of a restriction of the scope of the atoning work of Jesus to Ã¢â‚¬ËœmanyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬Â (pp. 543-44).
The foundation for our present translation was JeremiasÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ rereading of Scripture so as to avoid the offense in Catholic doctrine. Also, since Catholics know what the Church teaches, it will be okay adopt Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â. We will have to continue with JeremiasÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ argument next week. And yes, readers, the WDTPRS version of the consecration of the chalice will be coming soon. Continue reading
Was this obscuring compromise worth it for ecumenical reasons? I have no idea and I will leave that to my betters. However, to my mind this is an age when we need greater clarity not more nuances, a stronger sense of our Catholic faith and not something fuzzy. I do not think that ecumenical dialogue, as desirable as it can be when it is authentic, benefits from Catholics blurring their own teaching about how the fruits of the Lord JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Sacrifice will only be accepted by many even though He gave Himself up for all. By saying Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â the Church does not teach that God cannot and does not save non-Catholics through the merits of the LordÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Sacrifice! But, even if the number of the many who accept the fruits is beyond the reckoning of man, it is not going to be the Ã¢â‚¬Å“totalityÃ¢â‚¬Â, all of mankind, everyone who ever lived. If counting the elect is impossible for us, that mysterious number will not be beyond God who knew it before Creation. The Church taught clearly what this meant in a time of great upheaval and theological revolution. This teaching has been formally upheld in recent years. It is not in our best interests as a Ã¢â‚¬Å“Church in the modern worldÃ¢â‚¬Â to leave Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â as the translation for pro multis. We must return to Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â and then teach, teach, teachÃ¢â‚¬Â¦and embrace in charitable dialog all who will wonder what we mean or will seek to say we are wrong. Continue reading
His Eminence Joseph Card. Ratzinger confronts this in God Is Near Us: The Eucharist, The Heart of Life (Ignatius Press, 2003). His Eminence makes three points (pp. 37-8, n. 10): 1) Jesus died to save all and to deny that is not in any way a Christian attitude, 2) God lovingly leaves people free to reject salvation and some do, and 3):
Ã¢â‚¬Å“The fact that in Hebrew the expression Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â would mean the same thing as Ã¢â‚¬Å“allÃ¢â‚¬Â is not relevant to the question under consideration inasmuch as it is a question of translating, not a Hebrew text here, but a Latin text (from the Roman Liturgy), which is directly related to a Greek text (the New Testament). The institution narratives in the New Testament are by no means simply a translation (still less, a mistaken translation) of Isaiah; rather, they constitute an independent sourceÃ¢â‚¬Â.
What Card. Ratzinger did here is cut loose the raft of emotion and conjecture lashed to the pier built by Lutheran scholar Joachim Jeremias, upon which ICEL justified rendering Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â as Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â. Remember that Jeremias and then Fr. Max Zerwick, SJ (in Notitiae in 1970) used Aramaic and Isaiah 53 arguments for their change to Ã¢â‚¬Å“for all.Ã¢â‚¬Â Whether Jeremias was right or wrong (and I think his argument was at best tenuous) is entirely beside the point now. First, we are not Protestants who approach doctrine from a standpoint of sola Scriptura Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ Scripture alone. Second, we are not historical-critics when we approach the consecration of the Mass, we are believing Catholics. Third, the Missale Romanum and the Tradition and teachings of the Church have their own value, a value not to be abandoned in the face of conjecture and the vagaries of historical-critical Scripture scholarship or the concerns of non-Catholics. Fourth, the Missale Romanum is in Latin. This is a key point which every reader of WDTPRS must understand. Continue reading