From a reader…
QUAERITUR:
Since President Trump was elected Some Democrats have never acknowledged him as president. They say he is not my president. Which was very irritating. Now that Biden has appeared to have won can a Catholic say or wear clothes that state Biden is not my president?
In these United States we still have – for the time being – the 1st Amendment, which states:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Wearing such clothing would be an exercise of freedom of speech. If that is what you truly think and wish to express, you have the right to make an argument and express your view.
If you choose to exercise the free-speech right you still – for the time being – have, you should brace yourself for the negative consequences that Biden supporters will rain down on you.
Prepare to be doxed.
Perhaps to be harassed in your home and place of work.
Prepare to be verbally or physically assaulted.
Prepare your loved ones to be threatened with harm, or actually harmed.
Prepare for attempts to damage your property.
Things will change rapidly in these United States now that we have experienced this election cycle, which is ongoing until it is officially over.
Networks don’t decide that… for now.
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a) it would be a lie [That remains to be seen.]
b) crazy people who said Trump was not their president are not good role models on this or other matters [Dems… yes… agreed.]
c) we are required per St Paul to pay due respect to the governors put over us. The Roman system under which he wrote this was nowhere near the American system. True, you all made a grievous error in rejecting your monarch, but that might be irremediable now. [We fought a war so we wouldn’t have to be Canadian. o{]:¬) ]
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Biden is not my president and never will be. This is America, home of the Free and land of the Brave. I, and many others, will not bend a knee to radical Socialism. If the Harris / Biden duo does indeed succeed in stealing this election, then we faithful Catholics should prepare for battle in defense of the Church and our most Holy Faith. We must prepare for martyrdom, and to suffer for being disciples of Christ. The reign of Terror is at hand. May Our Lord be our Strength and May St. Michael lead us and protect us. +JMJ+
I lived in the US for a while. When I moved there Bill Clinton was president, then george Bush took over. Bush wasn’t supposed to win and there was a lot of anger about that but less than a year after he was elected something happened to unite the whole country … there were a few wars and some prosperity and everyone hung together.
Then Obama came along and it got nasty. Especially on TV. People who were were liberal but reasonable got angrier and angrier. Whilst it might always have been brewing underneath after 2008 it became obvious.
I left the US after that and have been observing it ever since. Trump wasn’t supposed to win in 2016 and the nastiness never abated, nothing happened that would unite the country.
If 2008 and after is anything to go by then it’s going to get a lot lot worse this time around. I agree Fr., but it would be imprudent for a Catholic to wear that in certain parts of the US or post such pictures on social media.
I am not saying AntiFa will become the new protection squadron (or Schutzstaffel as they call it in German) to the left but … actually that’s precisely what I’m saying.
Our parish is in a rural area of NY. We had a guest priest this past Sunday. During the prayer section of Mass he added a prayer for the successful conclusion of the election and specifically wished wisdon for President-elect Joe Biden. At that there was audible grumbling from the pews and a family wearing MAGA and American flag print masks walked out. I believe it was because the priest used the title eventhough it has not been offcially concluded that caused the consternation. It will become ugly.
I am sad to say it but the USA now (Former USA) will likely cease to exist over the next year. There are just too many opposing views and too much corruption.
Such a move would be premature at this point given that there still are votes to be counted and some votes in key states are being contested. Today will be the beginning of multiple suits filed in courts to address votes that were counted without Republican watchers present where they could see the counting (being able to see with binoculars does not count), cases where ballots with dead people were counted, ballots that were submitted after the close of the polls and in some cases were backdated according to eyewitnesses. The orchestrated move by the media to call the election for Biden is obviously an attempt to pressure the courts to come up with the “right” decision and to provide a reason to claim the election was stolen by Trump, rioting, looting, and burning of stores etc.
This article by Dick Morris is a good summary of the situation and how Trump could still win:
https://www.dickmorris.com/talking-points-about-vote-count/#more-112275
I presume the one submitting the question was gearing it to a conversation about the Fourth Commandment
I forgot to mention, there is also the vote counting software built by a company that Nancy Pelosi’s husband has an interest in, which randomly changes Trump votes to Biden votes. Interesting that no votes went the other way as far as we know.
In case you aren’t familiar with Dick Morris, he worked for the Clinton campaign until he “swam the Potomac” and became a conservative and now blogs on politics from that angle. So he has intimate knowledge of how the Democrats work.
Perhaps we should be praying for Joe Biden’s conversion instead of imitating the empty rhetoric of the left?
Biden has not been legally certified as the winner of the election. Even if he is legally certified, he doesn’t assume office until January. So no, Biden is not the President.
Until the electoral college finishes voting, we have no president-elect in any election year.
Joe Biden’s apparent win is deeply disappointing to everyone who placed their hope in Trump to block the Left’s agenda — virtually everyone here.
Let’s all take a deep breath.
If people want to step back and wait for official results to be certified by the states, even for the Electoral College to cast its votes on December 12, before recognizing a President-elect, that’s fine. (There is also nothing wrong with accepting the results to date as likely to be confirmed).
And there may be issues about when a Biden transition team is allowed to access federal transition funds, given Trump has not conceded and is actively contesting the results in court. I remember that was an issue in the 2000 election, and the Bush transition team could not access those funds until after the Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore.
But I do have a problem in 2 areas:
– Saying “Biden is not my President”. That’s both way premature, and (if Biden’s win is confirmed officially) disrespectful to civil authority. St. Paul had some things to say about that, and his civil authority was a Roman emperor putting Christians to death! — way worse than anything a Biden/Harris administration would do.
– Spreading doubt as to the election outcome, based on anything other than hard evidence of vote fraud or irregularities. I’m not sure such hard evidence (as opposed to uncomfirmed or debunked statements) has been presented to the public. Unreasonably casting doubt on election results is harmful in a democracy where all have to respect the outcome.
If there is hard evidence of irregularities, let that be presented and let the process work itself out. Until then, I think it best to pray and trust in God for the outcome.
“We fought a war so we wouldn’t have to be Canadian.” *chuckle*
Those, such as NOCatholic as usual, who have a “problem” with “spreading doubt” over this election should take a closer look, plenty of news items to dig into. Georgia announced a hand recount, ten State AGs filed amicus briefs regarding Pennsylvania, etc., etc., etc.
By the way, during the first debate Biden pledged (lied) that he would not declare victory until the election is certified, now Biden-Harris and many media outlets are demanding American citizens accept immediately Biden-Harris as Overlords.
JonPatrick: Good point. Statistical curiosities and anomalies abound with the software. There is also more than one incident similar to this (dated September 24):
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/letter-luzerne-county-bureau-elections
Good points Suburbanbanshee and Anita Moore. GSA and the Electoral College have yet to make a determination.
“Those, such as NOCatholic as usual, who have a “problem” with “spreading doubt” over this election should take a closer look, plenty of news items to dig into. Georgia announced a hand recount, ten State AGs filed amicus briefs regarding Pennsylvania, etc., etc., etc.”
Semper Gumby, I’m not going to argue with you over your denial of the election outcome. I will simply say, again, I am unaware of any hard evidence of vote fraud or irregularities, anywhere significant enough to flip the election results in even one state (and Trump would likely require more than one state to flip when all is done). [Right. GA is just doing the recount for fun.] Ongoing court cases thus far have not changed that — not even close. Biden is virtually certain the winner. [We don’t know that.] If I am wrong, and Trump wins a second term, I will publicly acknowledge that here on Father Z’s site whever it becomes clear. (But don’t hold your breath. That won’t happen).
Casting unreasonable doubt could indicate a lack of respect for civil authority (see Romans 13:1 and CCC 1897 ff), which in these US of A is not any “overlords” but the will of the people as expressed in an election under the Constitution. As a Catholic citizen, I look at the evident facts and accept the outcome, not what third parties “demand.” I’m praying for President-elect Joe Biden and Vice-President elect Kamala Harris. [They are not “Elect” anything yet.] I also pray for our President to accept the results and allow the formal transition to commence (which does not mean his litigation has to stop). I pray for you also. If you think me wrong, I would welcome your prayers.
Peace.
Thank you Fr. Z.
NOCatholic wrote:
“As a Catholic citizen…
Note that more Catholic citizens voted for Pres. Trump than for Biden-Harris.
“…I look at the evident facts…”
You are overlooking hundreds of facts worthy of investigation.
“…and accept the outcome…”
Which is yet to be determined.
“…not what third parties “demand.””
You have surrendered to the demands of Leftist third-parties such as TV channels and newspapers.
Time to go medieval, Monty Python-style:
Party of Death operatives distributing nocturnal ballot boxes, Enemy Lists (now we see the violence inherent in the “Democrat” horde) and belligerent talking points is no basis for a system of government in a constitutional Republic. Executive authority derives from a free and fair election and the Electoral College, not from warning labels slapped on social media analysis criticizing the farcical Party of Death ceremony a fortnight ago.
In other words, you can’t expect to wield executive power just because some spittle-flecked soy-drenched Mao-jacket-wearing TV anchor hurled a multi-colored map at you.
For God and Country the Truth Will Out.
[*applause*]
Thank you Fr Z.
Thank you Semper Gumby
Father Z, Semper Gumby,
Enjoy your alternate reality! I will wait for you to rejoin mine, next January 20.
Fr. Z and Fr. Kelly: Thank you. God bless faithful priests and bishops.
NOCatholic: This is not about you. This is not a game.
Yesterday, thugs who support your Biden-Harris racist baby-killing cabal attacked on the streets of Washington DC American citizens peacefully protesting against election fraud and Party of Death tyranny. Leftist thugs attacked a man on a bike, kicked an unconscious man on the ground, white “BLM” thugs attacked black parents with children who support Pres. Trump and free and fair elections.
This is A.D. 2020. This is reality.
Isaiah 5:23: Woe to those who acquit the guilty for bribes and deprive the innocent of justice.
Isaiah 5:20: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
Life is short. Eternity is long.
NOCatholic says “Joe Biden’s apparent win is deeply disappointing to everyone who placed their hope in Trump to block the Left’s agenda — virtually everyone here.”
But not you, right? You seem glib and very happy for a January 20th that sees Harris/Biden declared the lords over us all, election fraud be damned? You seem eager to get on with the destruction of our country, with open borders and mass amnesty, with pro-abortion policies, with the trouncing of religious freedom, with nationwide COVID lockdowns forever . . . etc.
Just making sure I understand your position.
Personally, I thank God that Trump is Trump and will fight to the end. Any “respectable” Republican, like Romney, Jeb!, or Marco Rubio, would’ve long ago conceded regardless of all the evidence of fraud. And there is quite a lot of evidence, sworn affidavits, statistical impossibilities, and, potentially, digital logs of fraud.
Doesn’t this all seem familiar to everyone? One side (the ones who care for Truth) argues “Let’s review everything in a transparent way so that we can know, with certainty, what happened or what is going on.” The other side (the “respectable” ones) say, “Shut up and agree with us. The Science/Facts/Reality is what we say it is!” You can fill in the blanks on the issue – Global Warming / COVID-19 / Hydroxychloroquin / Systemic Racism / 2020 Election / Russian Collusion – the argument always seems to go the same way. “We are the experts, you all are dumb. Stick your ‘Independent Spirit’ in a box and just do what you’re told. Accept our decrees!”
Either you’re on the side that’s trying to fight the corrupting forces quickly cementing their control over our entire world, or you’re on the side of the bad guys. There ain’t no more middle ground.
I thought this was done. I guess not.
WVC: “You seem glib and very happy for a January 20th that sees Harris/Biden declared the lords over us all, election fraud be damned?”
You mistake my light-hearted attempt to end this discussion by acknowledging that we won’t agree (at least not until forced by reality) from my being happy about that reality. I’m actually hoping and praying to get to 2024 (which BTW I would be doing true if Trump won).
We also won’t agree that Trump vs Biden is not good vs evil, but rather a choice between two evils. You must be in your information bubble and you don’t see that. I’m not, and I do. Not that I expect to convince you.
Semper Gumby: “Yesterday, thugs who support your Biden-Harris racist baby-killing cabal. . .”
Given that I stated multiple times, I supported neither ticket, including Biden-Harris, that statement borders on slander. (My state went for Trump by a comfortable margin, so my not voting for Trump did not hurt him in the least).
Since no one here seems to believe that pro-life conservatives can accept in good faith that Biden won the election, here’s a conservative view (not on a mainstream media platform) that does accept it, and dissects Trump’s efforts to contest the election:
https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/great-news-on-the-vaccine-front/
In the future, when Trump rages that the election was stolen from him, keep in mind how his own campaign lawyers were not willing to make his sweeping allegations in courts of law. And also keep in mind how frequently his own lawyers conceded points and dropped argument when under the scrutiny of a judge and the legal requirements for evidence.
The fact that vote fraud does not exist in numbers sufficient to swing a presidential election does not mean it does not exist. However, the effort to eliminate vote fraud that does exist is undermined by allegations of vast conspiracies from losing candidates that sound like the whining of a sore loser.
There are several links in the original for the research of anyone interested.
In the meantime, trying to convince me either that Trump is either a good President, or the winner of the 2020 election (absent hard evidence to the contrary that so far has not surfaced), is a waste of time. If you fear for my soul, please pray for me, and I will pray for all of you.
@NOCatholic – You can be wrong and ill-informed without me having to fear for your soul. You said I’m in an information bubble, but it’s you who keeps pulling quotes to the eternally Never Trumper National Review and pretending that they’re giving a fair, unbiased account of events. On average, I search through at least 7 or 8 different news sources on a daily basis, including liberal strongholds like Digg and mainstream (liberal-biased) sources like CNN, but also including ZeroHedge, Revolver, The Conservative Treehouse, Liberty Daily, and other non-mainstream organizations (including some excellent podcasts, like the No Agenda show). I take everything with a grain of salt, weighing the headlines and stories against the facts that are provided to support the narrative. I don’t take anything for granted.
Look at your own reference. National Review says that Trump’s legal team has retreated in Pennsylvania. That’s a blatant lie.
https://www.breitbart.com/radio/2020/11/15/trump-campaign-pushes-back-on-media-reports-of-changed-pennsylvania-case/
The National Review story also poo-poos the Georgia recount as a waste of time. No word from the good ole National Review about how the Georgia Republicans filed an official letter with the Georgia Secretary of State about how there are three very big problems with how the recount is being conducted:
https://gagop.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Deficiency_Letter_1_.pdf
Be honest – did you know about this letter?
Also no mention of the nasty deal the Georgia Governor seems to have made with Stacey Abrams:
https://newsthud.com/the-devil-just-got-caught-in-georgia-trump-lawyer-files-lawsuit-after-exposing-shady-deal-between-georgia-secretary-of-state-dnc-lawyer/
Be honest – did you know about this Consent Decree?
Previously, you pointed to a National Review article making the “Pro-Life” argument against Trump, but I pointed out it didn’t mention “Pro-Life” or “abortion” once in the entire article.
So, yes, one of us is definitely in an information bubble, and it ain’t me.
You pray that we make it to 2024, but the point many of us folks have been trying to make is that 2024 will mean nothing if we don’t win in 2020. If there really is fraud on this massive of a scale, if the Democrats really can steal an election of this magnitude (with Trump receiving some of the largest popular vote numbers in history), do you really think that 2024 will be a “fair” election? Wouldn’t you feel better and more confident if the 2020 election results were completely transparent and clean? Wouldn’t it be a good thing for everyone if the votes (which clearly show many statistical anomalies – Biden won FEWER counties than Obama but millions MORE in votes? Democrats lost big in the House, Senate, and most if not all local government races but won BIGLY with Biden? And then there’s all the magic 4 a.m. votes and the issues with the Dominion voting system . . . etc.) were audited and re-counted and confirmed under bi-partisan witnesses even if it did nothing but prove there was no funny business and that all those many anomalies were just a fluke? Wouldn’t it make you happy to throw it into Trump’s face saying, “See, we did certify this election to everyone’s satisfaction, now stop being a sore loser and get lost!”? What do you think Sidney Powell has to gain by putting her entire reputation on the line if she didn’t believe what she was saying was true? Or Lin Wood? Is everyone just automatically a liar if they support Trump and everything they say can be discounted out of hand?
I honestly don’t see what anyone of genuine good will stands to gain by opposing the election investigation. Did you see the pictures or video of the million folks who gathered in D.C. on Saturday to protest election fraud? It was easily as big as the March for Life, but with barely any news coverage. There are over 70 million folks who believe the election was stolen. Do you think anything short of an unimpeachable audit of the election is reasonable given the scale of distrust?
So you can deal with “reality” right here and now and break out of your information bubble, or stick your head in the sand until January 20th. It’s up to you.
NOCatholic wrote: “I thought this was done.”
One of many things you do not decide. Before you whine about “slander” pay more attention to your sanctimonious harangues and ad hominem attacks that extend back some two months. Expand your thinking beyond short-term political gain.
WVC: Good point. The Party of Death and their collaborators such as NOCatholic (and VARoman) are determined to silence American citizens. Which is precisely why these people should be opposed and not allowed power.
Semper Gumby: “Expand your thinking beyond short-term political gain.”
I already do — beyond the election of a President who you see as something close to the Devil, which brings to mind this dialogue from A Man for All Seasons:
ROPER: So now you’d give the Devil benefit of law?
MORE: Yes.?What would you do??Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
ROPER: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
MORe: Oh??And, when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you?–?where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat??This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast?–?man’s laws, not God’s?–?and, if you cut them down?–?and you’re just the man to do it?–?d’you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then??Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.
I stand for the rule of law, which includes accepting the undesired outcome of a legally conducted election. In the long run, there is no conflict between being pro-life and upholding the rule of law.
BTW, speaking of a “sanctimonious harangue” and “ad hominem attacks” I would be hard pressed to find a better example than your previous post.
@NOCatholic – so . . . you don’t see anything ironic in the passage you quoted and the fact that Trump and his supporters are trying to determine if the election actually followed the law? There are many indicators that the election did NOT follow the law. Some estimates put upwards of 2 to 3 million votes having been tampered with. There is a great deal to be suspicious of, and the efforts being made are NOT to overturn a fair and legal election (your story) but to determine if it actually was a fair and legal election (the reality of the various legal challenged being pushed in multiple states).
Seriously? You don’t see the irony here?
And despite whatever Facebook says (they’ve already removed the title of President from Donald Trump even though, BY LAW, he’s still the President until 20 January), there is no President-Elect. The election hasn’t been certified by a single state. The media (pace to the National Review) does not get to call the election. Again, I’m just arguing for the Rule of Law. If the Devil is due the benefit of the law, then surely Donald Trump is as well?
[Fake removed “President” from Pres. Trump’s page?!? Seriously? How much more obvious can they be?]
NOCatholic wrote: “I stand for the rule of law, which includes accepting the undesired outcome of a legally conducted election.”
You certainly do not stand for the rule of law. You do stand with Joe Biden, a proven racist baby-killer.
You have not “accepted” the “outcome” of a “legally conducted election”, you are merely demanding others accept and enable your collaboration with the Party of Death for your own gain, and you resort to ad hominem, denial and disinformation when others criticize your collaboration.
For your own good you are referred to the two verses from Isaiah above.
WVC wrote: “I honestly don’t see what anyone of genuine good will stands to gain by opposing the election investigation.”
Genuine good will by the Party of Death and their collaborators is quite scarce. What is abundant is willful ignorance, selfishness and narcissism, lust for power and reliance on violence rather than rule of law.
Semper Gumby, you are getting obsessed with me, projecting your own reaction to criticism onto me. You should worry about your own good, not mine.
If you really want to get creeped out by Facebook – look into Centra. Yikes!
Also, regarding Facebook, this throw back seems pertinent:
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/facebook-data-scandal-trump-election-obama-2012/
NOCatholic: You are beginning to see the downside to your two months of tirades, ad hominems and Alinsky-ite behavior.