The Bishop of Knoxville is on the job, addressing serious problems in the local church entrusted to his pastoral care. If for nothing else he would be notable for the pogrom he conducted last October – he must have a thing for October – against people who desire the Traditional Latin Mass. HERE
What’s his problem now? People who pray prayers together before or after Mass. HERE
It came to the attention of Most Rev. Mark Beckman that in some churches people were praying well-known prayers together before or after Mass. For example, after Mass some people had the custom of reciting the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel. Others pray the St. Francis’s Prayer or a Prayer to the Holy Spirit.
Can you imagine such a thing? Such a gross offence to… to… liturgical… thing? Because… experts! The bishop “reflected” about this grave situation and wrote the article I linked, above. Those prayers…
and others have been added regularly to the liturgy—recited together, sometimes before the entrance hymn, or immediately after the dismissal….
[…]
Having reflected on the importance of celebrating the liturgy in accordance with the mind of the Church, I do not think it appropriate to add additional prayers associated with the celebration of the Mass itself.
I hate to break the news here, but “before the entrance hymn” or “after the dismissal” are both outside of Mass.
“But Father! Be fair! He said ‘associated with the celebration of Mass'”!
Sorry. I don’t believe people are stupid. You would have to think they were pretty thick to imagine they don’t know when Mass starts and when Mass ends.
So, the only reasonable thing to do is to stop pious people from different walks of life who find themselves together in a church from praying together.
Once again we see an attempt to force people into a lock-step conformity which simulates a chimeric “unity”. After all, we can’t let people just, sit or stand when then want, or – quod Deus avertat – kneel for Communion. We can’t have people praying together in a church before or after Mass, can we? That would be double-plus-ungood.
In a spirit of fairness, there could be a legitimate issue about collective prayer before Mass (Novus Ordo), since GIRM 45 says:
Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.
That said, perhaps the bishop would better spend his authority on what goes on in sacristies before Mass. Is there silence and order? My experience over the years is that sacristies are not bastions of silence and order before Mass. Maybe that’s something His Excellency should attend to in his diocese. That is certainly according to “the mind of the Church”.
Again in a spirit of fairness, if I had the opportunity, I would ask a question.
In consideration of the explicitly invoked “the mind of the Church”, which specific provision of the Roman Missal, the GIRM, the Code of Canon Law, or the Holy See’s 2001 Directory on Popular Piety forbids the faithful from voluntarily praying the St. Michael Prayer after the liturgical dismissal? Until such a provision is identified, the claim that suppressing a longstanding devotional practice is required by “the mind of the Church” remains empty.
The same people who gave us the Snoopy prayer during Mass are uncomfortable with the St Michael Prayer after Mass.
A very small point: I thought that the Mass was concluded when the priest left the assembly, as in “passed through the doors,” not at the verbal statement. The elocution too often signals the “go!” as in “ready, set, go” for the great dash to the parking lot. Tacky. Our priest is often stopping and gabbing with folks as he walks down the aisle while altar servers stand there.
I wonder why this gentle prelate finds the St Michael Prayer so repellent.
double-plus-ungood
Now that takes me back to my childhood. I haven’t heard that in ages.
In my experience, when people in leadership start nitpicking about small frivolous matters, it’s an indication of bigger and more serious problems being ignored or swept under the rug.
The faithful ought to thank His Excellency for his newfound devotion to liturgical discipline, note to themselves that this measure is beyond his competence and authority, and politely ignore him.
Had a priest at a student catholic chapel ask me what I was doing before Mass. I said praying the Rosary . “How quaint”.
GIRM 45 re silence before Mass is interesting and in our parish the Rosary is recited before the weekday Mass, but I never found it to impede private prayer and, in any event, the Rosary is concluded several minutes before Mass actually commences. Also, I suspect that the point of GIRM 45 is to limit the distracting chit chat that is so common in many churches before Mass. Saying the Rosary actually accomplishes that and reinforces the “devote” attitude sought by GIRM 45. We also say the Prayer to St. Michael after daily Mass. Nothing about Vatican II forbids it. Why would any bishop ever want to restrict the Prayer to St. Michael? Personally, I think that we need his intercession now more than ever.
retired: Mass was concluded when the priest left the assembly
Mass ends with the dismissal. Waiting for the priest to leave is good manners and a fine custom.
I wonder if in Knoxville the bishop should literally tell everyone to leave the building at the “Ite”. After all, it would keep them from, you know, praying the St. Michael Prayer.
My pastor has barely enough time to meet and greet and de-vest before he needs to sprint off to the next parish.
Such is the distribution of priests in the New Springtime.
*This* bishop seems to have priests with enough excess time to shoo people out of church after Mass, perhaps to the sacrament of coffee n donuts. [In fairness, I didn’t read anything in the bishop’s note that said that people have to leave. They are, apparently just supposed to be silent and, if they do pray, not pray with *gasp* someone else a prayer they both know.]
He could send any surplus priests to my diocese… We would welcome his (to echo the words of Henry II) “troublesome priests.”
Praying? Together?!? OUTSIDE OF THE LITURGY!?!
Don’t they know that such things didn’t happen in the earlychurch ™ and that Vatican II has rescued us from such superstitious, medieval, triumphalist practices?
The beatings will continue until morale improves in Knoxville.
Our pastor forbade us to say the St. Michael prayer after Sunday Mass.
He hasn’t been able to stop the faithful from reciting it and saying a Hail Mary after daily Mass. Everyone just waits for him to leave, and then a specific parishioner leads the prayers.
Our associate pastor says the prayers with us, then leaves the altar.
Two other local church congregations pray the Angelus together before noon Mass each day AND say the St. Michael prayer afterward.
All the other local parishes where I attend daily Mass have a priest-led recitation of the St. Michael prayer after Mass ends. One of these also has a daily communal Rosary after Mass.
Maybe these prayers are popular because 1) people feel the prayers are needed and 2) in a Church built on Christ and tradition, traditions endure.
So, “walking together” so long as we’re not “praying together”. I see.
What I find more distracting is the casual atmosphere before and after the celebration of Mass, people greeting one another and talking informally with each other, while others may be trying to pray and prepare for Mass. One suggestion would be for bishops and pastors to make available to the faithful prayer cards with the prayers of Thomas Aquinas before and after Mass. Often when I celebrate Mass at different parishes, I am asked to say a short prayer with a blessing in the sacristy for the servers, lectors and Eucharistic ministers. I simply recite wholly or in part the prayer of Thomas Aquinas with a blessing.
OK, I am not saying that the 13th century was the greatest century, but Thomas Aquinas can teach us much about preparation for, and thanksgiving after, the celebration of the Eucharist.
Bishop Paprocki of Springfield in Illinois has something to say on this topic.
From the beginning of his time as bishop there, he has asked that the St. Michael prayer be said after the Masses
https://dio.org/catholic-times/there-should-not-be-a-battle-in-praying-the-prayer-to-st-michael-the-archangel-after-mass/
Interestingly, it is a popular misconception that the Mass ends when the deacon (priest) announces, “The Mass is ended…” but the Mass (Ordinary Form) actually is not ended until the ministers venerate the altar with a kiss (GIRM Chapter II, D 90(d)). I do not know how it works in the Extraordinary Form.
I would assume that the corollary to this is that the Mass begins precisely when the ministers venerate the altar, but it may begin with the Entrance Chant or antiphon. There certainly is a ringing of bells and so forth, where I’m from!
Therefore, our widespread local custom of praying the St. Michael prayer occurs within the Mass, because only afterwards do the ministers venerate the altar. I am thankful that this prayer has been officially re-instituted.
So indeed, in most all our Masses, there is a significant event that occurs “after the dismissal” but before the actual end of Mass. And I believe there is significant confusion about the sequence of things. Most priests, in passing, seem to believe that we are praying that prayer “after Mass”…
Here again, it’s the consistency which is truly frightening. A truly random lot of attitudes and dispositions would not generate such consistent buffoonery, therefore it must be planned somewhere by someone.
What if they all got together and did this at the diocesan cathedral after Masses said by His Excellency? I mean, he said they should stop doing it in their respective churches, maybe he’s just lonely? What if, like the minstrels with Sir Robin, they followed him everywhere, reciting the prayer to St. Michael whenever he left any place whatsoever? Can you imagine, a bishop driven to filing a restraining order against people praying for him? Or what if they did it like Christmas caroling? Or blared it in the cathedral’s vicinity like the bells which I’m positive aren’t ringing anymore?
Every setback presents opportunities.
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church doesn’t have a “Prayer to St. Michael Problem”. The Catholic Church has a clerical homosexual problem that get expressed in deformations in the practice of the Catholic faith.
I again return to my hobby horse of questioning whether obedience to the bishop extends to prayers said outside of Mass.
The fact the headline he chose for his letter is “St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us”…….. rude is a light way to put it.
Wouldn’t praying various prayers together, or even one, after Mass be one of those so-called “organic developments” of the liturgy as it “evolves” they are always touting and claim are being led by “the Spirit?”
Actually, I think that is exactly what it is for real. It is the “sensus fidelium” at work. It is the popular piety of the people. But in this case I guess, for bishops, “the Spirit” is leading in the wrong direction.
When the Pharisees told Jesus to quiet His followers who were saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” as He rode a donkey entering Jerusalem, Jesus told them, if the people were silenced, the very stones would cry out.
Good luck to these guys trying to control the Holy Spirit.
I’m actually torn about this. Not at all about the St Michael prayer, but perhaps about prayers before Mass. Some parishes do it better than others I suppose. Just the other day I went to a parish I don’t typically attend, for confession. I had just gotten back to my pew 30 minutes before Mass was to begin and immediately a layman walks up to the ambo and leads the entire rosary with the microphone. I could barely hear myself think much less focus on my penance or meditate. Maybe that technology is part of the issue because in other parishes the rosary just sounds like pious white noise.
Our now-retired pastor was asked by many to say the St. Michael Prayer at the end of Sunday Masses. He said he checked with the lady in charge of the Diocese’s liturgy office and who said that 1. nothing can be added to Mass 2. that Mass doesn’t end until the Priest (well, the “Presider” I guess) leaves the sanctuary, therefore 3. the Priest can’t lead the St. Michael’s Prayer after Mass.
His successor was asked about saying the Prayer after Sunday Mass, checked with the same Diocesan liturgy person who, he said, said that Mass ends at the dismissal so saying the Prayer led by the Priest was fine. We have said the Prayer ever since.
I don’t think our retired pastor lied but that he merely relied on leading questions and motivated reasoning to get to the conclusion he wanted, displaying the kind of arrogance that is too, too common among the clergy.
I wonder how the majority of priests, deacons, and bishops feel about several Catholics leaving Mass immediately after communion. No, I am not referring to those who do it occasionally (for reasons such as running to work, relieving a caregiver, helping to set up the hall for a reception, catching a flight) but those who do this regularly. I have seen a few priests over the years bring up this issue from the pulpit and how it is irritating and disrespectful.
I ushered for several years and at one parish we purposely would not put out bulletins until the closing song started (yes this was before the Internet) since a bulletin is often seen as “proof” that you attended Mass. However, this was a deterrent to leaving early.
I have noticed this new strategy, of prelates asking for the NO to be celebrated reverently and according to the rubrics, while at the same time working to actively make sure that the rules are not followed by issuing orders beyond their power, like limiting Ad Orientem or asking people not to pray.
The bishop of Kalamazoo I understand recently just issued a statement REQUIRING the use of Extraordinary Ministers at all Masses with more than 100 people.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
I wonder how Bishop Beckman feels about lay people coming into the sanctuary at the end of Mass to make some kind of announcement before the final blessing?
Has he banned that practice as well or just praying?
None of these things their own prove necessity for the SSPX but the cumulative effect of the infection throughout the Church sure does.
Within the first couple of years of his papacy, I recall (but I have not been able to find the reference) Pope John Paul II remarked in St. Peter’s square that we used to pray the Leonine Prayers after every Mass and a significant part of these prayers is the prayer to St. Michael. He added that since we generally stopped praying the St. Michale Prayer after Mass, things have not tended to get better.
He ended by urging priests to begin this practice again…
Does anyone else remember this?
Published on Aleteia :: 01/30/17
In his Regina Caeli message of Sunday, April 24, 1994, St. John Paul spoke of “the woman clothed with the sun,” of which mention was made in the apocalyptic vision of St. John, with the dragon about to devour his newborn son (Rev. 12: 1-4)
The Holy Father said at that time that in our time “before the woman accumulate all the threats against life…we must turn to the woman clothed with the sun, so surround yourself with her maternal care…”
This message encouraged the Catholic people to again invoke St. Michael the Archangel through Pope Leo XIII’s prayer:
“M
While the good bishop, in my opinion, doesn’t really have a case for suppressing the prayer to St. Michael after Mass, given the historical precedence for it, nevertheless, corporate prayers before or after Mass may be distracting to someone trying to engage in mental prayer. This happened in our parish and the pastor instructed those saying the rosary to sit together near the front of the church so that the other people praying who did not wish to join in saying the rosary could sit in the back. There is more than one type of praying and a small group of people should not hijack the liturgical space for their purposes. That being said, if the entire congregation wants to say the rosary, that is a different matter.
About silence during liturgical activities, personally, I have no problem with groups praying the rosary after Mass, as most of the acoustic energy is diffused throughout the church cavity, but it is extremely fingers-on-chalkboard horrible when I am standing in the confession line after Mass and somebody starts joining in with the rosary right behind me in the line. I am focusing on trying to organize my thoughts, calm my anxieties, and remember my sins, and the person saying the rosary behind me is causing me extreme misophonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia). The confession line, in my opinion, is not the place to be saying the rosary or any other vocal prayers. In my opinion, maintaining silence in the confession line is an act of charity.
The Chicken
If the bishop does not like the St. Michael prayer after Mass, obviously it is time to start chanting the relevant part of the Liturgy of the Hours after Mass! Right? It is mandated by VII, after all.
And it is okay for laypeople to lead,and you can say the St. Michael prayer as part of it.
And everyone says it together, as recommended by VII.
Thank you @Christophorus
I have found that reference but the encouragement to priests I’m thinking of was even earlier.
I had the impression that returning to Rome as Pope from Poland which was still behind the iron curtain, he was shocked at how far things had degraded since his last time in Rome at the Council and urged priests to invoke St. Michael daily.
Maybe the bishop should look into WHY the faithful feel the need to say the St. Michael’s prayer . . . I seem to remember saying it after Mass soon after the most recent sex abuse scandal – or rather many bishops’ handling of said scandal . . .
Also, where in the rubrics are “parish announcements” that are done either before Mass or after dismissal. . . . . I don’t seem to remember hearing of such practices in any of the Gospels, so are those now forbidden as well?
He ended by urging priests to begin this practice again… of saying the St. Michael prayer at (after?) the end of mass.
And yet: he had all the power needed to REQUIRE that priests do this, and he declined to use that power for a simple and worthwhile act to reverse course on an ill-considered change. But…heaven forbid saying “we made some mistakes” in implementing the NO.
Regarding when “the Mass” is over: I note that in the TLM, the recitation of the Last Gospel comes after the dismissal, but is required as part of the Mass. I find no conceptual problem with the idea that there might be a part of the mass after the dismissal. But ideally it should be either part of the rubrics and formally part of the mass, or (at a minimum) said by the direction of the bishop, or understood to be “after mass” AND therefore optional / voluntary.
Diocese’s liturgy office and who said that 1. nothing can be added to Mass 2. that Mass doesn’t end until the Priest (well, the “Presider” I guess) leaves the sanctuary, therefore 3. the Priest can’t lead the St. Michael’s Prayer after Mass.
Nonsense: after reaching the sacristy, the priest can come back in to lead it. Or, with today’s technology, he can simply turn his mic back on from the sacristy and say it from that location, AFTER he has left the sanctuary. Where’s your creativity, people?
I applaud the idea of people spontaneously just saying the prayer out loud, especially at the bishop’s masses, relying on “the Spirit” to guide them. I also applaud the rosary said publicly in the church before mass, especially if it ends 15 minutes before mass. The bishop’s concern should have been directed PRIMARILY at people being irreverent before mass, talking, chatting, informal behavior, and distracting to those praying, as the principal problem where people were not obedient to the mind of the Church, and might have added an incidental note that saying the rosary publicly should not interfere with individual prayers in preparation for mass.
Might be time to go full Office-Space Milton Wadams, shuffle over to the Cathedral and switch it up with the Imprecatory Psalms… you know…. for kicks.
Hmm… if these disobedient “piously-over-devotional“ rabble resorted to praying in Latin, they would probably be in the clear… Many bishops have stated magisterially that “nobody understands Latin anymore anyway“… In all likelihood, the Bishop probably has no Latin himself, as such, it may be possible to fob off any inquiries with vague references to extra-liturgical litanies customarily recited in an Eskaleut dialect by the local Aleutian-Catholic community…
I think in general, people should be able to enter a church and find peace and quiet. They should witness people praying silently. Silence allows people to learn how to pray without words. Some people are uncomfortable with silence, but once they get used to the quiet, they often find it very peaceful and restorative.
I appreciate how this Bishop is trying to get more uniformity among the parishes in his diocese. I can see how various prayers led by the faithful before or after Mass can get out of hand. Who decides to lead the prayers? Who chooses which prayers are said? How many will be said? I’ve personally never recited the prayer to St. Francis after Mass. I like vocal prayer, but it can be a distraction. A lot of people enjoy the silence they find before and after Mass, to recollect and pray personal prayers.
My suggestion would be to have bishops instruct their priests to start reciting the Leonine prayers with the faithful after every Mass. This will give the various parishes some needed uniformity in this area and the faithful will have a chance to recite these short prayers aloud as a group in their language.
After that, silence should be the norm. I think the faithful should respect the prayerful atmosphere and remain quiet after the priest-led prayers. The Rosary is long, so perhaps if people want to say it as a group, they can coordinate that for a specific time, not too close before or after Mass.
There is too much talking before and after Mass, so a way to solve this would be to instruct the faithful that there will be new prayers after Mass, led by the priest, and that after that, the church should remain silent for people who wish to pray quietly. This will get people used to going outside after Mass to talk. Silence in a church should be respected like it is in a library. People should know they can go to any church and expect to find peace and quiet.
Everyone in that diocese should show up at the bishop’s mass early to say a communal prayer, before the liturgy of course, and then stick around afterwards for a Saint Michael prayer.
In my church people are too busy chit-chatting before mass to have any reasonable quiet time for prayer. The same goes after the mass when they applaud the organist for apparently entertaining them.
They should all start doing the liturgy of the hours right after mass…