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Another amazing translation call in a Holy See document, or, “Who did this translation? babelfish?”
I am not making this up.
The Holy See’s new document Guidelines for the pastoral care of the road from the Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People and its president Renato Raffaele Cardinal Martino. After talking about "Street Women" and "Street Children" we get:
This just in from a frequent blog participant, TF, who wrote via e-mail:
“The free availability of speed, being able to accelerate at will, setting out to conquer time and space, overtaking, and almost “subjugating†other drivers, turn into sources of satisfaction that derive from domination.”
and
“Men have an important role to play in working towards the achievement of sexual equality, in a context of reciprocity and fair differences.”
and
“Poverty has an aspect that is manifested in the people who live and sleep on the street or under bridges.”
And perhaps most egregiously in the title of the fourth section, “The Pastoral Care of the Homeless (Tramps)” Are we to consider that the preferred word in ecclesiastical circles for street people is now “tramps,”
or has the Vatican taken a special interest in the goings-on of young Hollywood nymphets with names like Brittany, Paris and Lindsay?
How long until Cardinal Martino retires?
One is also forced to ask, who did this translation? babelfish?
ROLF!! I have GOT to figure out how to use this line more often!
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 19 June 2007 @ 12:27 pmI just sent you an email regarding this – what a horrid job of translation!
Although, the original document itself seems to suffer from a serious case of verbal regurgitation with little cohesive sense. Perhaps it would be better titled, “Pastoral Concern for Issues I Think Are Important This Week.”
Perhaps Cardinal Martino is a Cher fan:
Gypsies, tramps, and thieves
Comment by Tim Ferguson — 19 June 2007 @ 12:29 pmWe’d hear it from the people of the town
They’d call us gypsies, tramps, and thieves
But every night all the men would come around
And lay their money down
TF: That is precisely what popped into my mind when I read that title, and reread it.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 19 June 2007 @ 12:31 pmTF, that’s the hardest I’ve laughed in weeks. Thanks.
Comment by Carolina Publican — 19 June 2007 @ 12:38 pmThat’s why the lady is a tramp.
Comment by caleb1x — 19 June 2007 @ 12:48 pmTramp!
What you call me?
Tramp.
You didn’t!
Otis Reading – Tramp
Comment by Fr. D — 19 June 2007 @ 1:21 pmOne is also forced to ask, who did this translation? babelfish?
Better babelfish than the old ICEL. At least this likes more like laughable incompetence than mendacious intent.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 19 June 2007 @ 1:25 pmWhat happened to “bums”? Or did that term fall into disfavor after Vatican II?
Comment by Carolina Publican — 19 June 2007 @ 1:29 pmWhat happened to “bumsâ€
Carolina…We are to call them lay mendicants
Comment by I am not Spartacus — 19 June 2007 @ 1:39 pmAre they bad translators or just out of touch with the rest of the world? Oh for the ever present problem of using the same word to describe completely different things…
Comment by Alan Stout — 19 June 2007 @ 1:41 pmI prefer that other venerable Latin term “derelicts.”
Comment by Legisperitus — 19 June 2007 @ 1:41 pmFr. D,
I think the Vatican’s pastoral concern here is more addressed to Otis Campbell than to Otis Redding.
Comment by Tim Ferguson — 19 June 2007 @ 2:07 pmTim,
You bring up the subject of a certain subset of the “tramp” (AKA “bum”) category. Hmmmm… I wonder if the term “wino” also qualifies as official teminology now.
Comment by Carolina Publican — 19 June 2007 @ 2:28 pmMaybe they had to use babelfish because all the translators are busy working on the m.p. Maybe.
Comment by Andy S. — 19 June 2007 @ 2:37 pmIs this something to “write” them about?
Do you think it will be changed?
It seems that there is a whole lot of garbage vocabulary in the document.
Comment by rk — 19 June 2007 @ 2:38 pmWe seem to have a divergence of American English and British English here. Tramp is still a commonly used (though admittedly not very PC) term in the UK for homeless rough sleepers. The American usage to refer to a woman of loose morals is understood, but would not be the first meaning to spring to mind.
Comment by flabellum — 19 June 2007 @ 2:50 pmWe seem to have a divergence of American English and British English here. Tramp is still a commonly used (though admittedly not very PC) term in the UK for homeless rough sleepers. The American usage to refer to a woman of loose morals is understood, but would not be the first meaning to spring to mind.
Both refer to people who often change the place where they sleep.
Comment by RBrown — 19 June 2007 @ 2:58 pmI can’t imagine a native speaker of British English using ‘tramps’ in such a formal context.
I’m wondering whether it might be:
a. A translation made by a non-native English speaker. (Not very likely, surely.)
Comment by Zadok the Roman — 19 June 2007 @ 3:14 pmb. A translation made by a native speaker of English from a country where archaic linguistic usages which have passed out of common currency in British and American English still survive. (One occasionally hears some archaic words used by Indian and Nigerian speakers of English.)
or
c. It’s an intra-office joke that’s managed to inadvertently escape into the wild.
I wonder about some synonyms:
Synonyms: baggage, beggar, bimbo, bo, bum, derelict, down-and-out*, drifter, floater, gypsy, hitchhiker, hobo, hussy, jezebel, loafer, moocher, outcast, panhandler, prostitute, slut, stiff, strumpet, tramper, vagabond, vagrant, wanderer, whore
Notes: a hobo is a migratory worker who likes to travel, a tramp travels without working, and a bum does not travel or work
hmmm… I wonder if I am writing for The Tramp.
Synonyms: Lazzaroni, asker, bag lady, bankrupt, borrower, bum, bummer, cadger, chiseler, deadbeat, dependent, destitute, freeloader, hobo, indigent, lazar, mendicant, moocher, muzzler, panhandler, pauper, promoter, ragbag, rustler, scrounger, sponge, sponger, stiff, street person*, stumblebum, suitor, supplicant, supplicator, touch artist, tramp, vagabond, vagrant, ward
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 19 June 2007 @ 3:21 pmMaybe they meant the disco band, “The Trammps”?
http://www.aaeg.com/trammps.htm
Comment by Stu — 19 June 2007 @ 3:28 pmHere’s the list of the NEW Ten Commandments of the Road:
Rome’s 10 Commandments for the Road
1. You shall not kill.
2. The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.
3. Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.
4. Be charitable and help your neighbor in need, especially victims of accidents.
5. Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination, and an occasion of sin.
6. Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so.
7. Support the families of accident victims.
8. Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness.
9. On the road, protect the more vulnerable party.
10. Feel responsible toward others.
I’ve added a few myself…
11. If you are old, turn off your signal light if you do not intend to turn.
12. Slow traffic should move to the right lane…or buy a bicycle and get off the hiway.
13. Your car is not a portable telephone booth. Sit down, turn around and shut up!
(From my kindergarden bus driver who’s booming voice seemd to come down from on high!))
14. If you are putting on make-up and eating breakfast while driving, your life is too busy.
15. It’s nice to be nice to the nice. (Frank Burns of M*A*S*H – Sophia!)
16. Do not run over tramps.
Any others?
Comment by Gordo the Byzantine — 19 June 2007 @ 3:39 pmOn a German blog (http://specimina.blogspot.com/2007/06/dekalog-zugleich-vor-vor-letzter-post.html), the “guidelines” were announced as the latest document from the “Pontifical Council for Blah-blah-blah and Rigmarole”. I really can’t make myself read the whole thing, but it certainly appears to be a case of the well-intentioned being the biggest enemy of the good. I think it is no disrespect to the hierarchy to poke fun at these excesses of beaurocracy.
Comment by Berolinensis — 19 June 2007 @ 4:36 pmAdding to Gordo’s list, I offered #17 on my blog this morning. “Do not jump into the Popemobile without the express invitation of the Pope.”
Comment by TO — 19 June 2007 @ 7:45 pmReading the document which is the subject of this post, at first I found an irresistible urge to giggle.
When I got to para. 61, with its parody of the Decalogue, I began to wonder. There is something uncanny about its looniness. Has this document been released in order to show just how crazy Vatican documents can be, just ahead of certain awaited Other Documents…?
Anyway, it sure cured me of taking Vatican documents seriously a priori.
Comment by AM — 19 June 2007 @ 9:28 pmflabellum writes, We seem to have a divergence of American English and British English here. Tramp is still a commonly used (though admittedly not very PC) term in the UK for homeless rough sleepers.
I suppose we could say the same thing about tinkers here in the US? “Tinker”
doesn’t have the same impact here (meaning to “fiddle” with something) as it does in the UK & Ireland. The PC thing in the UK is to call them “Traveling People” or “Travelers”, right?
(US readers: I’m talking about “gypsies” ... from whence we get the delightful
Comment by Guy Power — 19 June 2007 @ 10:29 pmphrase, “not worth a tinker’s damn.”)
The parody of the Decalogue is repulsive. The document is written as if it was
adressed to stupid people. It is grotesque to see the Holy See publishing those
sorts of things. What is more, the moral wheight of a written pronouncement of
the See of Peter should be reserved to things that are relevant from the
viewpoint of Faith and morals.
The “do not drink and drive” line, while important, is to be advertised by the
Comment by prof. Basto — 19 June 2007 @ 11:29 pmState, not by the Church of God in a parody of God’s Ten Commandments promulgated
by God Himself at the Sinai.
flabellum writes, We seem to have a divergence of American English and British English here. Tramp is still a commonly used (though admittedly not very PC) term in the UK for homeless rough sleepers.
Yes, it’s commonly used but not in a formal context like this and has derogatory connotations. One of the dictionary citations given at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tramp defines tramp as “a disreputable vagrant”.
Comment by Ansjo — 20 June 2007 @ 3:44 amFather D,
Don’t forget the wonderful Carla Thomas who sang “Tramp” with Otis Redding! That song gave me a lot of pleasure back in the 60’s (I had the album “King & Queen” which featured it…. now I’m reduced to listening to in in iTunes… it’s downloadable) and it’s great to know I’m not the only one who remembers and appreciates that sort of thing.
Oremus pro invicem!
Comment by Bailey Walker — 20 June 2007 @ 6:09 am_I suppose we could say the same thing about tinkers here in the US? “Tinkerâ€
doesn’t have the same impact here (meaning to “fiddle†with something) as it does in the UK & Ireland. The PC thing in the UK is to call them “Traveling People†or “Travelersâ€, right?_
In the United States, “Travelers” are not “Gypsies” (Roma), but are families of various ethnic origin who have decided to live permanently outside the law and common social mores. Thus, like Gypsies traditionally have done, they often move from place to place, making their living through dishonest, fraudulent means.
But I hadn’t heard that sort of person called a “tinker.”
(US readers: I’m talking about “gypsies†... from whence we get the delightful phrase, “not worth a tinker’s damn.â€)
Actually my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that the the phrase is “not worth a tinker’s dam,” referring to the material that tinkers would use to plug holes in the pots and pans they would sell. The dams frequently didn’t stop the leaks very well. But naturally “dam” came to be confused with “damn.”
Comment by Jordan Potter — 20 June 2007 @ 6:13 amAh, the long–awaited Motu Trampio!
Comment by Don Marco, O.Cist. — 20 June 2007 @ 9:23 amJordan, my understanding of “tinker’s dam,” was that it referred not to vagabond criminal families, (the tinkers in Ireland and England,) but to the actual trade of tinker, who in order to cool down his metal work, (as a smith does in a tub of water,) would form a temporary “dam” at the edge of some small body of running water to create a pool of still water.
It would be no more substantial than a sand castle, deliberately so, as meant to be knocked or washed away almost immediately, not like a real damn.
(Save the Liturgy, save the world)
Comment by Geri — 20 June 2007 @ 11:10 amAh, that was it! Thanks for clearing that up for me, Geri.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 20 June 2007 @ 11:15 am+JMJ
Father Zuhlsdorf, if you decide to comment on this on your next “PODCAZT,†I would like to nominate for your lead-in music that wonderfully awful 1970s recording by Cher, “Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves.†This posting has somehow stuck that song in my head.
BTW, I think your comments box may have some issues. It won’t accept, as my anti-spam word, “Why, yes, I AM impatient.â€
In Christ,
Comment by Nathan — 20 June 2007 @ 11:36 amTF, I should have read your comments more closely. You get the Cher credit.
Comment by Nathan — 20 June 2007 @ 11:39 amFather, just you wait, when the Motu Proprio is released, it will read:
APOSTOLIC LETTER
Comment by David — 20 June 2007 @ 2:01 pm“Lorem ipsum”
Of the Supreme Pontiff
Benedict XVI
given motu proprio
on the liberalization of the Salsa Mass
David: LOL However, I think Lorem ipsum is really His Holiness’ upcoming Apostolic Letter on the need for good translation and the prohibition of babblefish on computers of the Secretariate of State.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 20 June 2007 @ 3:34 pmThis is completely moronic! What the heck??!!?
Since when did the Vatican appoint itself THE technical expert on the social problems of homeless people? Or, for that matter, drivers’ training teacher to the world? I keep seeing this “10 Commandments for the Road” nonsense. Please tell me this is all a bad joke.
The English syntax is horribly funny in a completely tragic way. Reminds me of those stories about accidentally ordering awful things in French restaurants. Calling some people tramps to their faces, poor or not, could have consequences just about as bad as sauteed unmentionables, too.
The Vatican shouldn’t allow such trash to be released from its offices. It makes them look like absolute ranting idiots.
I can only ask: Is it really possible this is incompetence? Or is this person Martino ready for the Alzheimer’s medicine? Or is this some sort of wicked design to make someone look bad?
[BTW, this reminds me of the complete garbage the USCCB tends to put out on secular topics. I remember a position paper on economics and the work world (which they know NOTHING about), and another one on the “pastoral care of homosexuals”(feature that!). Absolute crap. One wonders what the motivation must be. Honestly.]
Comment by michigancatholic — 20 June 2007 @ 9:49 pmSilly Vatican. Imagine not consulting American English speakers before deciding on an English translation of a document. A tramp is a homeless person who ‘tramps’(walks) from place to place.
We non American English speakers have to get used to your versions of words e.g. diaper (nappy), bathroom (toilet), clothes pin (peg), back to back (consecutive) pastor (parish priest)etc etc you can make a little effort to get used to our words without having a fit of the vapours.
Comment by Victoria — 21 June 2007 @ 5:23 amdiaper (nappy), bathroom (toilet), clothes pin (peg), back to back (consecutive) pastor (parish priest)
Except for nappy and peg for diaper and clothes pin, all of the examples you mention are perfectly acceptable synonyms in American English.
As for “tramp,” that too is an American English synonym for “homeless person.” But’s it’s fallen out of favor because it usually has a pejorative sense: insulting the homeless, or even more usually, referring to women of ill repute.
Paris Hilton, for example, is not a homeless person, but currently has been provided housing by the government . . .
Since when did the Vatican appoint itself THE technical expert on the social problems of homeless people? Or, for that matter, drivers’ training teacher to the world?
Look, the document is just a bit of applied moral theology, and God DID appoint the Vatican to be the expert on moral theology for the entire universe.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 21 June 2007 @ 7:03 amComing from the country which invented English (ha!) I see nothing wrong with the use of the word tramp. I don’t think “bum” would have been an acceptable alternative, meaning as it does “bottom” or “posterior”. Because of their position in society most terms referring to homeless people will be perceived as perjorative. The “nicest” term I ever heard was “gentleman of the road”. Still means tramp though..
Comment by Pat Mc — 21 June 2007 @ 9:31 amJordan, you mean like: “3. Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.” ???
That’s not moral theology. That’s a platitude.
Comment by michigancatholic — 22 June 2007 @ 10:00 pmIsn’t anyone going to make the obligatory “Born to Run” joke?
Guess I’ll have to do that over at my own blog.
(I hope this doesn’t mean I’m getting really old.)
Comment by Karen — 23 June 2007 @ 12:33 pm