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TLM in Winchester Cathedral, UK! (PS: This is the Anglican Cathedral)
Just when the Catholic Cathedral in Cardiff hits the LMS from the blind side, over in Winchester, at the Anglican Cathedral, something very different is happening.
I got this e-mail from a kind reader:
It is reported that this is how the forthcoming Mass at Winchester Cathedral on Saturday 21st June
at 11 a.m. came about:
It seems that some Anglican members of the Choir at Winchester Cathedral are particularly interested in the liturgy and they wanted to have a Mass in thanksgiving for the Motu Proprio. One is an acquaintance of the people who organise Masses for the Latin Mass Society in Canterbury Cathedral. [Did you get that? Anglicans are thankful for Summo[]rum Pontificum and want to celebrate it.]
The Dean and Chapter were all in favour and agreed. So the Cathedral Choir will be singing a Polyphonic Mass with Gregorian Chant. Bishop Hollis was consulted and apparently agreed to the plan as long as it was a one-off. [Bp. Hollis of Portsmouth is definitely not known as a strong conservative, but my friends in the Portsmouth diocese tell me that even before Summorum Pontificum he never said no to celebrations of the older form of Mass. ] The Celebrant is the former Abbot of Belmont, the Rev Dr laurence Hemming from London will be Deacon and a priest from Marlborough will be Sub Deacon.
This is what I call true ecumenical dialogue!
That is really strange yet this is the best kind of ecumenical diologue there is!
My only question is doesnt the Altar have to be consecrated and have relics of saints in them so that Mass can be said?
I wish our people would be half as excited as these Anglicans about the Moto Proprio!
Comment by Marc — 20 May 2008 @ 8:14 pmAmen for some real ecumenical dialogue.
I think there is a fairly reasonable risk of profanation of the sacrament. Anglicans will attend and it has been my (limited) personal experience that they don’t always care whether or not they are invited to receive the Eucharist.
I have a feeling if Anglicans are hosting the event, they might be expecting to be able to receive. Reminding them that they cannot receive might dampen the fruit of such dialogue. How should the Church mitigate this?
Comment by Cornellian — 20 May 2008 @ 9:24 pmIs the altar at that cathedral pre reformation? I cant see what altar they would be using. One would reason, if the original altar was there, or atleast a pre reformation altar, it would be legitimate wouldnt it? I mean something doesnt become un consecrated simply because the people who “own” it fall out of favor with Rome. How beautiful a thing that the mass returns to it if indeed true!
Comment by Patrick — 20 May 2008 @ 10:08 pmNow this is gravitational pull, let me tell you!
As for the fear of profanation . . . it’s been my experience that often those who don’t fully understand the deeper meanings of the Eucharist are the ones who will pay it higher respect. . . in our local parishes the opposite seems more common: familiarity breeds contempt.
Which is a greater “profanation”: a rogue Anglican receiving communion with great devotion, or the vast parade of gum-chewing suburbanites who talk through the eucharistic prayer on any given Sunday who “lawfully” receive simply because they’re “Catholic,” while demonstrating nonchalance and irreverence for Him whom they receive?
Perhaps not an orthodox viewpoint, but there you have it.
Comment by david andrew — 20 May 2008 @ 10:19 pmThis is good news but there are a couple of questions this raises.
1. Is the Mass to be said an actual Tridentine Mass by a Catholic priest, or is it our Mass said by an Anglican for them?
2. Since it was initiated by the choir, is it known whether they are actually expecting their participation to go beyond just the singing?
======
Marc wrote:
“I wish our people would be half as excited as these Anglicans about the Moto Proprio!”
)(
Marc, more of our people are just as excited about the Motu Proprio than the Anglicans, except that this sort of thing seems much more dramatic than our people come around to having the Tridentine Mass.
I think it also follows that it isn’t the Faithful who are unexcited about Summorum Pontificum, but as we have seen in Cardiff and San Diego, it’s the bishops.
Comment by Matt Q — 20 May 2008 @ 10:59 pmFr Z.,
It’s a bit of a underestimate to say that His Lordship Rt Rev Hollis is not a conservative, in fact he is probably one of the most liberal bishops in the country. The reason he allowed it is probably that it would have looked bad to ban it if the Anglicans said “yes”, the caveat he gave being important to see into what he really thinks.
As for Anglicans and ‘Summorum Ponitificum’ I have had requests from Anglican vergers et al. to organise High Masses in two Cathedrals, yet you must realise that for many Anglicans its just ceremony they do not realise the underlying importance of what we do.
Comment by Pius_X — 21 May 2008 @ 2:48 amI have family in Winchester and I know the Cathedral well. Fir the uninitiated, there has been a cathedral on the site since the 7th Century and the current Cathedral has the longest aisle (I think) in England. It is also the burial place of Jane Austen – in a very anonymous grave.
It’s a beautiful Cathedral, which of course was stolen from us at the Reformation. Visitors now have to pay to enter. That always annoys me, paying to visit a Cathedral that was taken form us, but hey…
I might even go to this.
As for intercommunion, Anglicans in the UK are very well aware that they can’t receive from us so this won’t be an issue.
Comment by Jack Regan — 21 May 2008 @ 3:20 amThey may be aware, but they go anyway. It is definitely a problem. They really don’t get it. Here’s one exporting his casual attitude.
Comment by berenike — 21 May 2008 @ 3:49 amI’m failing to see the good in this, if they want the Mass let them become Catholics or at least go to a Catholic Church why should the Mass go to them? The Mass is more than just a musical concert and we are wrong to encourage them to treat it so lightly.
Comment by Volpius — 21 May 2008 @ 5:14 amI doubt if any pre-”reformation” altars exist. One of the first things the “reformers” did was to destroy the Altars where the “blasphemous sacrifices of masses” were offered by “popish priests” and set up communion tables. Sounds like the 1960’s all over again!
Comment by Serafino — 21 May 2008 @ 5:35 amThis is the same Abbot who was supposed to celebrate Mass at Cardiff! I think LMS might be trying to make a point by choosing to celebrate Mass in an Anglican Cathedral after being rejected from the Catholic one: That the Protestants are more tolerant of Catholic tradition than your average Catholic bishop. Sad but true. I almost converted in my teen years for that reason.
As for the altar, even if the original pre-reformation altar is intact, it has been desecrated by almost 500 years of misuse. A portable altar would have to be brought in if they wanted to do the traditional thing, but canonically, a consecrated altar isn’t necessary anymore and portable altars are no longer being made.
Comment by Michael — 21 May 2008 @ 5:55 amAs for the necessity of consecrated altars, I seem to remember photographs of masses being performed by chaplains in WWII on tables, the backs of trucks, in barns, etc., etc.
Comment by Tim H — 21 May 2008 @ 6:05 amThese canons applied to the consecration of a permanent church structures not to emergency, extraordinary, or ad hoc celebrations of THSOTM.
The Catholic parish of Lochgilphead also offers a Sunday Mass at the Anglican church in Inveraray. Apparently, the Anglicans only meet every other week, while the Catholics fill most of the seats every Sunday. I don’t think there is any problem with offering the Mass on that altar, as it has been an ongoing weekly event for some time.
Comment by Kradcliffe — 21 May 2008 @ 6:16 amHow about this for yet another twist on the ecumenical dialogue:
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2008-ecumenism_with_a_spine.htm
[If I am not mistaken, is obedience not an important point of reflection in the Exercises? Just asking… – Fr. Z]
Comment by Mark Jacobson — 21 May 2008 @ 6:27 amMethinks they have an altar suitable!
http://www.winchester-cathedral.org.uk/images/gallery/greatscreen.jpg
Comment by Pleased as Punch — 21 May 2008 @ 6:45 amI find I have a few comments:
I’m sure the Latin Mass Society isn’t making a point with this celebration. I think that both the Winchester and Cardiff masses have been planned for several weeks.
I don’t know Winchester at all, but I too think it likely that the altar was destroyed in penal times. I think that was typical. Relics in particular were abhored by the protestants.
I’m afraid there is an increased risk of profanation. Many anglicans do not respect church discipline on communion, including some with very high profiles and who should know better. Some believe themselves to be catholic.
Comment by Simon Platt — 21 May 2008 @ 7:28 amI think there is another aspect to this and that is that both Anglicans and traditional Catholics are aware of the very great historical significance. It is glorious to be able to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in such an extraordinary building which was built by Catholic faith precisely for this purpose. For instance the Association for Latin Liturgy has organised a Solemn Latin Mass in the Novus Ordo in Gloucester Cathedral on May 31st, at the invitation of the Anglican Bishop of Gloucester. There is no indication whatsoever that this is in anyway seen as an ecumenical event. Significantly the cathedral was built as a Benedictine Abbey, and became a cathedral only at the dissolution of the monastries and the Mass is being offered by the Benedictine Abbot of Downside Abbey. In this instance the choir is the Schola Gregoriana of Cambridge, but if the Choir of Winchester Cathedral wish to sing for Mass at their cathedral, and they are among the best in the country, then excellent! (I believe there is some doubt as to whether the Westminster Cathedral Choir are willing to sing at Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’s Mass in June!)There seems to be a far greater sensitivity to the richness of our Catholic liturgical tradition among some Anglican groups than among the majority of Catholics. (I recently saw the local Anglican vicar blessing a cross in the churchyard wearing a magnificient cope, our PP would have worn polyester with iron on transfers.)
As regards intercommunion I see a far greater problem with liberal catholics who are unwilling to accept that there is any reason they can not invite their protestant friends to partake and should not partake of protestant communion services themselves. Most serious anglicans I know are painfully aware of why they cannot take our communion and will present themselves for a blessing instead.
As an example of liberal Catholic weakmindedness, an elderly Catholic parishoner said to me recently that the reason Mass was changed into English, ( her words) was to make it as near as possible to the Anglican communion service so that we could eventually have shared services. She also told me that the reason the new translation, whenever it comes out, will have ” And with thy Spirit “, was because that is what the Anglicans have in their service.
Of course there are those within the Anglican Church who regard themselves as Roman Catholic but, it seems to me, can not bear to cross to Rome in her current state.
Comment by M. — 21 May 2008 @ 8:15 amI can only imagine what the Protestant Truth Society will think when they hear about this!
Comment by Patrick Rothwell — 21 May 2008 @ 8:22 amPARODY SONG ALERT
A kind read sent this:
To the tune of “Winchester Cathedral”
(With Apologies to Geoff Stephens
and the New Vaudeville Band, 1966)
Winchester Cathedral
You’re making me cheer
Your oecumenical action
is TLM-clear
You could have done nothing
But you didn’t dare
You up and did something
You showed us you care
Now everyone knows that we think the Old Mass is swell
We shouldn’t have to go to an Anglican church
But just start ringing your bell
Winchester Cathedral
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 21 May 2008 @ 8:32 amYou’re making me proud
You helped to ensure our
Latin Mass was sung loud:
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.
Sicut erat in principio,
et nunc, et semper,
et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
This is wonderful news. There is an Episcopal Monastery in Three Rivers, Michigan, which to my knowledge, still uses the Latin liturgy in their
Comment by TJM — 21 May 2008 @ 8:34 amMonastery. I hope the Dean of Cardiff is ashamed of himself after reading this. I never saw such a rank politicization of the liturgy as the indicident involving
the Dean of Cardiff. Tom
AS regards intercommunion I was recently taken aback to hear a priest, of relatively high rank, state at a funeral, something to the effect ” Now at this very special time in our service and as we mourn for XXXXX, I would like to invite all those present, Catholic or otherwise, who wish to do so, to come forward to the lord’s table”. At least two strict Anglicans I know who also attended the funeral were scandalized that he should have done s