The other day I posted – HERE – about the truly weird vestments designed for the upcoming World Meeting of Families in Dublin.
At first, I objected to the impression given by the pastel colors chosen.
It seems to me that, in Ireland and in this time of renewed clerical crisis, this is NOT the best choice. In fact, it is completely tone deaf.
Or is it?
Then the comments started coming in about the symbols on the vestments. “Maybe, so, maybe not,” I thought.
But wait. There’s more.
I got an email from a reader who said that the swirly symbol is quite like the – blech blech blech – symbol used on the flag – even they have a flag – of the BDSM types (Bondage Discipline Sado-Masochism).
He said I would find the symbol at the wikipedia site for BDSM. DO NOT GO THERE. I found it. Blech. Here it is. In two forms.
I don’t even want to post their graphic file, so I will make a screen shot instead.
I had also posted about the Italian proverb that, “Il diavolo non può nascondere le corna… The Devil can’t hide his horns.”
In fact, the Devil doesn’t want to hide them.
The Devil always tells us what he is up to, if we are paying attention.
Start adding up all the things going on.
I have to ask…
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!?
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Catholic Deplorable@RigidPelagian Aug 16
Behold the vestments for the #WorldMeetingofFamilies. The Lavender Mafia strike again. Note that there is no religious symbolism. Now what is that Wuerly thing in the middle
This is the best explanation I have seen so far:
Celtic symbolism on papal vestment to be worn by Pope Francis at Phoenix Park mass revealed
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/celtic-symbolism-on-papal-vestment-to-be-worn-by-pope-francis-at-phoenix-park-mass-revealed-862421.html
For what it’s worth (and the site isn’t scholarly), the claim here is that this is only “one particular specified form of the triskelion symbol”: https://www.symbols.com/symbol/bdsm-emblem.
Cf. https://www.symbols.com//symbol/triskelion, where, in the image given, the lines, however, do cross.
Or, rather, emanate from a single center (which this one doesn’t do).
In a previous blogpost Father also asked about “what’s going on?”
https://wdtprs.com/2018/08/super-creepy-poster-for-gay-conference-reveals-agenda/
It’s the same thing. Why should the devil hide what he’s doing?
And also, from the link supplied by Charles E. Flynn:
“I was out with Archbishop (Diarmuid) Martin at a small intimate mass in Dublin and they had this cross at the altar. I was completely taken by it…”
Where was this Mass, what was the occasion and what do we know about the speaker, Fr Damian McNiece, Master of Ceremonies…?
I dont even know what to say except.. NOTHING is a coincidence…
Whether or NOT the parties designing it knew what it was- if they actually did it out of neitivity..
Its definitely a sign..lol
PREPARE for battle!
Love, love, love. This is what we hear from the libs. God does NOT love sin! It is the worst evil. God is full of mercy – conditional mercy – but he is also a just God. I recently found this scripture of the words of Jesus Himself that I like to bring to the attention of those who believe that God is ONLY full of sugar and spice and everything nice:
” But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.” Lk 19:27
It could be a take on that BDSM logo. My first thought, pardon my frankness, was three sperm cells swirling, in diverse colors, to symbolize who know what! If it symbolizes three males (hence the three different colors) we know what that message is. It is certainly bizarre, as is much in these time! Whoever came up with this certainly does not have the Catholic Faith. Kyrie eleison!
BDSM and pastels? …I don’t think those things are related.
The US Department of Transportation uses this motif too, and so did the 27th SS Volunteer Division. Coincidence? Yes. The vestments are hideous enough on their own to merit violent condemnation.
Have a look. This generic symbol is used but just about everybody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion
What the Hell is going on? No, more to the point, who is going TO hell!!!
From the Irish Examiner article Charles Flynn links above, “The papal vestment has a triple Celtic spiral that is associated with Irish ancient manuscripts while some 70 bishops, who will be involved in the papal mass, will wear similar vestments.”
First, I would like to see evidence that the triple Celtic spiral is associated with ancient Irish manuscripts. Maybe that is actually the case. If so, it would be very appropriate. To me, anyway it seems like a decent image for the Trinity, including the inner processions.
Beyond that though, I think we (anch’io) want to be careful of falling into the trap of “seeing evil in the crotch of a tree.” That is a real danger in this climate of moral panic that I am seeing on some notable trad blogs, and in myself, for that matter.
It may well be that the BDSM group purloined the image from the Celts and not the other way around. By way of analogy, wasn’t the Nazi ( cross) symbol originally of legitimate Christian origin? They lifted it.
Also, graphic designers have a limited number of designs to work with, and this looks very similar to the sort of thing I saw in an extensive book of Japanese designs many years ago. There is one very common in our culture that I saw in that book many years ago. If you reduced the squiggly items to two and made one black and the other white, then you have a logo for some corporation. not sure what, a chain of sushi places? Anyway, I see it all the time.
I agree, it definitely resembles that diabolical flag. I also agree, the devil cannot hide his horns. We saw that at Joseph Sciambra’s site, with the Quest conference highlighting the boy and man’s hands walking toward each other, I mean, how obvious can you get. They are becoming more bold, more aggressive in their perversions. They seem to feel they have somebody powerful in back of them, giving them support and a green light for full steam ahead. Gosh, who could that be. A mystery. Here’s another thing, they don’t like that we’re getting so uppity and talking back. They seem quite accustomed to doing what they want unquestioned. We work for them, they don’t work for us. It’s arrogance, complete arrogance. You can smell it.
I would like the people of Ireland to go and boo them all off the stage. Ireland of all places should be darn sick and tired of pederasty, and they just got hosed on the same-sex marriage and abortion boondoggle. Go and boo them, boo them all, boo the pastels, the demonic swirls, the blabby blab watered down Catholicism, boo it all. When James Martin is introduced, boo him, and when they start talking about why Ireland needs to be filled up with Africans, boo so loud the rest of the world hears it.
The triskelion, triple spiral, etc. are tied together at the center, and often at the rim of the circle also. This creates a feeling of stability. It is also very satisfying to draw such shapes.
Similarly, the Japanese tomoe of comma shapes is linked at the rim of the circle, again creating stability.
This is just a bunch of whirling unconnected comma shapes, with no connection to sacred geometry motifs by anybody. It looks like a poorly conceived advertising logo.
While I agree that the vestments are hideous, when I first saw the symbol I assumed it was trinitarian — but a bad modern symbol of the Trinity. The article posted above suggests its based off a Celtic symbol. A little Wikipedia later and that does seem to make sense that it’s a Celtic symbol and has many been the basis for many things others than what Fr. Z cites. All things being equal, the explanation of it originating from the Celtic symbol seem reasonable. The odd part is that it is so easily explainable as trinitarian, why wouldn’t they just say that it a Celtic symbol appropriated as trinitarian? Why would the master of ceremonies stick on to the Celtic origin?
I can’t stand those insipid pastels myself–but actually, the triple spiral, called the “triskele” or “triskelion”–is a pagan artistic motif that dates back to neolithic times (ca. 3,000 B.C.) in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. It was quickly Christianized –because it could be obviously seen as a symbol of the Trinity encircled by the divine unity. So you see the spirals in this gorgeous image of Christ Enthroned in the Book of Kells:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/KellsFol032vChristEnthroned.jpg
and in the Gothic church of Saint-Antoine-l’Abbaye in France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion#/media/File:Triskel_et_Biskel_-_Saint_Antoine_l_Abbaye_-_Alain_Van_den_Hende_17071627_Licence_CC40.jpg
It’s unfortunate that BDSM people have co-opted the triskele (I have no idea why). And while I can understand why the triskele is important to the Irish (the Book of Kells is one of the most beautiful Gospel manuscripts on earth), I don’t understand why the vestment designs don’t include some more overtly Christian symbols–say, a cross or two. This is particularly unfortunate, because the contemporary super-secular Irish, who like to skip the entire 1,500-year history of Christianity in Ireland and pretend to be Irish pagans, have adopted the triskele as a decorative design without any reference to its longtime Christian use. Those vestments could be worn by neo-Druids.
The Dublin vestments seem doubly strange because their designers, the Haftina company, founded in Poland in 1991, specializes in liturgical vestments that aren’t especially inspiring in design but are definitely orthodox in both color and symbolic motif: crosses, Chi-Rhos, Alphas and Omegas, grapes and wheat, and so forth. Here is a link:
http://haftinaliturgicalvestments.com/the-offer/szaty-liturgiczne/
So I don’t know what got them into this bland Dublin stuff.
“
What the HECK is going on IS that satan is laughing his head off. he doesn’t even have to work hard because we are just letting him walk right in and take over. WHO IN THEIR “RIGHT” MIND is letting this happen without a review and ok from the very top. And if this has been reviewed from the very top and oked SHAME ON THEM. Somebody HAS TO STOP IT AND SYOP IT NOW! WHO is approving all of this and if it’s Catholic Church officials then they need to wake up and smell the incense. For the sake of His sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world.
It still looks like “666” to me.
I thought as I began to read this article that the objection was going to be to a pre-Christian symbol being used for a Christian purpose. I’ve never seen a BDSM flag a-waving in the breeze, so this is a new and creative objection to me. Perhaps my use of the internet is too narrow. Perhaps not.
No, Satan’s not hiding his tail…he’s wearing assless chaps!
This is all quite gross. I confess that in my heart of hearts sometimes I thank God that we were apostate while our children were young.
[You know, that is disgusting. On the other hand, it is brilliant use of the English language and imagery. This should be shared with the Martin-types. Language is a tool, a weapon, to be employed for distinct purposes. This is the sort of image that might, one might say, penetrate those who have hitherto been deceived.]
Whatever it means the vestments are ugly. Why can’t we have the beautiful? Why don’t “they” want us to have the it?
I want the good, the true and the beautiful. I’m tired of them not letting me have it. I’m tired of having to see and hear the ugly.
Like I said the other day about something else…stuck on stupid.
The rich tradition of centuries of liturgical vestments and they come up with this crap. And that is what is. It doesn’t even measure up to the rudiments of simple design. It is garbage. Maybe they could sneak it in to the “Heavenly Bodies” exhibition. James Martin has a connection at the Met I’m sure. If Rihanna wore them in nobody would notice. It would just be part of the gig.
And the new week has not yet begun. What delights await us in Ireland.
St. Michael the archangel, defend us.
…If Card. Wuerl has now backed out of attending, perhaps we can continue to pray that certain other attendees might withdraw and the vestments might be substituted for something decent-looking. Surely there are beautiful vestments somewhere that can be used. Like a reader above, I’m tired of being force-fed the ugly.
Very sorry to learn that the triskele has been stolen, and ruined, by the sexual perverts. (Can’t they make up their own, original symbols if they must have one?) It has been seen as a symbol of the trinity, the three temptations of Christ; mind, body and spirit; the three phases of womanhood (maiden, mother crone) ; the three aspects of time (past, present future). I myself have a large and beautiful pendant triskele which to me represents the trinity. A symbol means what the beholder believes it to mean–they are not talismans. However, I think it highly inappropriate to use the triskele as the primary vestment ornament–not because of the disgusting misuse of it by others, but because it has strong, uninterrupted associations with non Catholic traditions. Better to use the shamrock, if one MUST have an Irish component, although the astonishing illuminated gospels traditions of the Celts in Ireland give plenty of beautiful artwork to choose from.
To add to the confusion here is one that describes the Shinto Trinity:
http://www.nihonbunka.com/shinto/trinity.htm
Its not uncommon for identical symbols to have different meanings in different cultures. Its seems in Catholic culture a monogram of JMJ might be more universally understood , especially on a Catholic conference on families. That is just my opinion.
I just spent some time looking at Irish Christian uses of the triskelion.
The spiral goes either direction (to the right or to the left) but the three spirals are always tied together at the rim to form one unit, as if to say that the Three Persons are One God.
If this was put together as an hommage to the ancient Irish Celtic symbol, it was not done by someone who cared to capture the symbol. It looks more like three sixes than a triskelion
Someone gave reference to the vestment designer Haftina. I remember that name because I had seen it before. It was from a fashion show posted by Fr. Z on this blog! Unbelievable !!!!!! have a look:
https://wdtprs.com/2017/06/another-huge-reason-summorum-pontificum/
gasp, faint
Father, have you seen the logo for World Youth Day 2019 in Panama? Tell me THAT isn’t hideous. This page explains the meanings behind everything, but I still can’t “unsee” a serpent going in to devour the cross. http://worldyouthday.com/panama-2019-logo-revealed
This bizarre stuff is all starting to remind me of Pizzagate. (which I sincerely believe is mostly or all true, by the way)
The Pope sneezes and there has to be a logo.
Does it really help?
@Lauren35 – Well, it’s not quite as awful as the “fabulous” “Three-Eyed Monster” for the Year of Mercy.
Still, it’s become a common practice to swallow back vomit before opening tabs to any new Catholic symbols, logos, artwork, etc.
I hate Celtic symbolism in modern art. It is all based on pagan gods, goddesses, and rituals, as well as ancient myths. Why the Irish organizers, or this Polish vestment maker had to choose Celtic symbols is beyond belief, as there are so many beautiful Catholic symbols which could have been used. A short list of Irish Catholic symbols-1) Patrick’s staff which he used against the Druids and snakes; 2) the ever-green shamrock, indicating the Trinity; 3) the Celtic Cross, originally designed by St. Patrick himself; 4) the cross of St. Brigid. The triskalion on the above ugly vestments is an ancient PAGAN symbol. I saw it in Malta, and it came from the area of the Mediterranean at least 5,000 years before Christ, found in Sicily, and in Ireland, as the Celts migrated from the Middle East, to the green isle. Why choose a pagan symbol, most likely representing spiritual realities contrary to Catholic doctrine? I know it is used on some medieval and renaissance abbeys and churches, but most people do not understand why it was used in such decorations. To make matters WORSE, neopagans in Ireland, and there are many, use the symbol for their own identity.
What a “dog’s breakfast.”
Much of the world is literally living like the old men in Judges 19. Sick.
But many people are making a big mistake by assuming that law enforcement, the FBI, etc., are exempt from the disgusting and demonic activity which is exhibited by clergy.
Remember, evil people seek positions of power – look at the evil bishops and Cardinals in the Church. They seek/sought power. When they achieved power, they then promoted similarly evil persons.
Ins’t it prudent to assume that such evil, power-seeking, persons will eventually make their way into law enforcement, the FBI, etc.?
One should be hopeful that law enforcement is clean. But, if most of them were raised in the modernist tradition, one should be skeptical of them. Jesus says to be wise as serpents; be wise, folks, especially if your city/area has been run by liberals for many years.
Bad theology.
Bad morals.
Bad taste.
p.s. The colours remind me of Easter Eggs…
Supertradmum! Hello! I have not seen your posts lately, maybe I have just missed them.
Thanks to Lauren for sharing the also-ugly World Youth Day 2019 logo. We wonder at the meaning behind these obviously pagan symbols. There is a saying in medicine “When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras”. The meaning is the meaning as we understand it. We aren’t stupid, or completely unversed, or mindless simps who can’t connect dots. These people put plain symbolism that is clearly pagan under our noses, and sometimes we try to smell croissants, but it’s not a croissant.
It’s ugly and pagan and plain and weird and demonic, because it’s a rejection of Christian art and beauty and symmetry and Christian meaning. This symbol and the WYD symbol is a turd, not a croissant. They will be rejected by the discerning, or even anyone with a slight aesthetic. They mean nothing, and everything! The WMOF symbol is clearly a dragon about to consume the quivering with fear cross. They are so obvious! Read Revelation for the source of their inspiration, but, they got it backward. They will be consumed.
Sorry, I meant the WYD symbol is the dragon…too fast on the draw for my own good….
The first person pope Francis is going to visit when he arrives in Ireland is President Higgins.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/president-signs-same-sex-marriage-into-constitution-1.2333882
I think pastels look very nice on women; no so much on men.
On another note, I hate it when I am out hiking and sheep fall on me: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hiker-hospitalised-after-he-is-hit-by-falling-sheep-on-irish-mountain-1.3601072
I’m of Irish decent and we find humor in everything; but for some reason I can’t find any humor in the pope’s visit to Ireland at this time. We will see what he says, but it looks miserable so far.
@ChesterFrank:
Thanks for the heads-up on Haftina!
The difference between the chasubles that Haftina shows on its website and those modeled in that “fashion show” (where all the models, by the way, are wearing sneakers with their liturgical garments) is night-and-day.
Yikes!
That said, I don’t see anything wrong with incorporating the triskele into a vestment design–since its origins might have been pagan but it became part of Christian iconography 1,500 years ago. But if you wanted to design a vestment inspired by the Book of Kells, why not use this image:
https://www.churchpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/114.jpg
or this one (perfect for the “family” theme:
https://www.churchpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/56.jpg
Here’s a riot of triskeles making a Chi-Rho:
https://www.churchpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/214.jpg
This stuff is beautiful. It’s thoroughly Celtic, and it’s thoroughly Christian. With contemporary computer techniques it could be easily incorporated into a fabric design that wouldn’t even be that expensive (no embroidery required). Instead, we get something banal and ugly. That’s what’s really wrong with the Church today.
PLEASE listen to Father Larry Richards’ 7 minute homily from this morning. He was abused and he has the answer.
https://thereasonforourhope.org/2018/august-19-2018-20th-sunday-in-ordinary-time-cycle-b/
I note that the Lavender Mafia takes the specific liturgical color for penance: violet; and then twists it into an unrepentant lavender.
No reason that this can’t be bad art and bad theology at the same time. We probably can’t rule out a prank either. I remember when The Little Mermaid came out on VHS, and the first run featured artwork on the front cover which had a phallus incorporated. Disney had to redo the artwork after parents began noticing it.
A couple thoughts/questions:
Didn’t the Vatican recently hire a PR firm which is very LGBT friendly?
I am not all that well-versed in “queer theology”, but it sounds very similar to most of what we hear out of Fr. James Martin about homosexuality. Could there be a homosexual theory about the relationship of the Persons of the Trinity?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theology
Charlotte Allen, Thank you, thank you, thank you for your link to the “riot of triskeles making a Chi-Rho” With that my head is thoroughly cleared of moral panic, and I can find it in my heart to give the liturgical committee of the WMofF and the liturgical firm in Poland the benefit of the doubt. It was pretty worrisome there for a while, though.
This is just silly. As someone who used to do a lot of calligraphy and was interested in Celtic knotwork, I can assure you that’s a common symbol in Celtic art. While, like most Celtic symbols, it probably dates to pre-Christian days, it was adopted by the Irish monk scribes who KEPT CATHOLICISM ALIVE in the very early middle ages, and is considered a Trinitarian symbol. If they didn’t freak out over it, we shouldn’t either.
And yes, I think they’re awful and tacky. But they are not demonic.
@Glennonite: that isn’t violet or lavender. Its Red. Subliminal?
Three thoughts:
1. The symbol on the vestment perfectly summarizes the current pontificate where theological statements are made with curves rather than straight lines.
2. Those poor clergy who have to process with these things. They’re going to look like walking breath mints.
3. There may be a deeper symbology here than they realize. The Triskelion was the headquarters of S.H.I.E.L.D, but we all know that S.H.I.E.L.D was infiltrated by HYDRA (who says comic books can’t be prophetic?). What we need is a Captain America, Black Widow, and Falcon (there are, already a lot of Nick’s who have a lot of a Fury). Black Widow can dump all of the secrets on the Internet while Falcon and Cap work to replace the three control chips of the HELL-icarriers from, Me, Myself, and I to, Father, Son, and Spirit. There are going to be big craters when those ships come down – big craters.
3a. Hosting a Synod on Youth at this time is a little like Slim Pickens riding the atom bomb down in Dr. Strangelove. Yeah, those bishops really have a lot of cred.
3b. Supertradmum returns!! I was praying the other day about people I miss from the blog and I was thinking about you. Sometimes, I hate the Internet. You make these really cool virtual friends and, poof, they disappear like a leaking photons at the edge of a shadow.
The Chicken
Has anyone pointed out that it also resembles 3 sixes? 666? Why wouldn’t that get caught by the planners unless it was intentional?
I have to admit – the first time I saw those, my impression was “Grateful Dead Concert”.
I have been a follower of FR. Z for years, and love the witty and truth driven perspective. I have become familiar with and admire some of the regular commenters. It is one of the very few internet sites I visit frequently, and whenever something happens in the Church, I check Fr. Z’s perspective before forming my own opinion.
I am Irish American, this is obviously a version of an Irish symbol, the triskelion, as many have noted. It is similar to other Irish symbols, also. It is readily and easily identifiable to anyone familiar with Irish culture. It is not surprising that other groups have similar symbols since it is ancient, common and beautiful.
I am sorry I now know what a minor fetishist group uses for its symbol. I am bewildered to find a vulgar reference to chaps and a double entendre reference to sex in response. I do not think it is in keeping with the high intellectual, informative and humorous standards of this blog.
And, like Gail, with whom I agree, I don’t particularly like it. But we’ve gone a little far afield here, and it reflects poorly.
Those three vestments make me hungry. They remind me of Pineapple-Lime-Raspberry Rainbow Sherbet.
Dessert? Yes.
Worship? No.
We cannot lose out sense of humour. In fact, humour is a sign of a healthy mind and a healthy blog, even if it is dark humour. For those above who take umbrage at this post, I say, sit back, have a bowl of robtbrown’s sherbet suggestion and chill out.
St. Thomas More, as well as many other saints, managed humour in dark times, and believe it or not, the Desert Fathers were known for their sense of humour, even while taming the flesh and battling Satan head-on. Here is Thomas More’s often quoted prayer…he would definitely have something to say about the above photo of those hideous vestments.
Grant me, O Lord, good digestion, and also something to digest. Grant me a healthy body, and the necessary good humour to maintain it. Grant me a simple soul that knows to treasure all that is good and that doesn’t frighten easily at the sight of evil, but rather finds the means to put things back in their place. Give me a soul that knows not boredom, grumbling, sighs and laments, nor excess of stress, because of that obstructing thing called ‘I’. Grant me, O Lord, a sense of good humour. Allow me the grace to be able to take a joke and to discover in life a bit of joy, and to be able to share it with others”.
Excuse typos above, and this entire to-do about the vestments reminds me of The Devil Wears Prada, for some reason. The vestment industry has become too haute couture, looking for novelty for the sake of change. Believe it or not, the average set of styles and “lines” of secular clothing change every six weeks in London Oxford Street stores. Six weeks! Wait long enough, and the Pope will have another set of vestments. Why can’t he wear something he wore at another “D0,” at another Mass, like the rest of us mortals? Even Princess Diana was seen in the same outfit at various occasions. I doubt whether he had a say in this and it would be nice to see the Pope bring his own used vestments and chuck these.
The worst thing is that they do not even look modern, or classic, or fashionable, or elegant, or nothing. Design wise they lack personality. They are insipid, nauseating. Poor and cheap design.
The only thing that I see is that they have a slight Buddhist feeling. Excepting the pink one. That conveys another feeling.
Sometimes I laugh out loud at the wit here. Jokes about chaps with no underpants and penetration ?It’s OK if someone on a hard identity Catholic blog questions the taste of that. Fr. Z’s Blog and comments are almost always spot on, though… ..immixtis interdum frigidis et arcessitis iocis.
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Is anyone surprised?
Isn’t the World Meeting of Families being used as an event to normalize homosexuality in the Catholic Church via Jesuit, Father James Martin? You can’t sling crap without getting the poo poo all over everything.
Of course the vestments would bear the bondage symbol (BDSM). Sin is hell.
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Thank you to The Masked Chicken: <> and to robtbrown: <> for brightening my day with these two hilarious observations.
As a graphic designer and as a former post-secondary art school instructor, the vestments symbol and the 2019 World Youth Day logo reminds me of some of the poorly thought out and derivative work I used to see from some of my students, complete with “explanations” of what they meant. Even for experienced designers, logo design is probably one of the most difficult to master. When done correctly, of course, it is wonderful and the results are just right. When done badly, you end up with garbage like this.
My partial reaction is “meh”. Not demonic or vulgar, just… surely could have found an artist to do something with great celtic symbolism.
My primary reaction is “why any new vestments at all?”. Trying to avoid falling into apostolic precedent, but surely they have enough vestments already and could have spent the money on some greater need surrounding the Church?