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IT’S COMING - MOTU PROPRIO - 7 JULY (07-07-07)
On Wednesday afternoon the Secretary of State, Tarcisio Card. Bertone gave the Motu Proprio to 30 bishops from around the world on Wednesday afternoon in the Apostolic Palace. The bishops were explicitly chosen and invited for this. (I am guessing that they were heads of Bishops Conferences.) Pope Benedict XVI later came to the meeting. The document is three pages long, though what the format is in not revealed. The Pope’s accompanying letter is four pages.
It is clear from the way this was done that the Holy Father wanted to make sure that bishops got this document in this way, rather than having to read about it in the paper. I assume that what will happen now is that these bishops, if they are heads of conferences, will return home and distribute the document to the bishop members of the conference.
[UPDATE: They are not only heads of conferences: H.E. Archbp. Raymond Burke of St. Louis and H.E. Sean Card. O’Malley of Boston was there, whether because of this meeting or a coincidental meeting is not clear.]
The general publication is 7 July. Review the FIVE RULES.
Many thanks to Kath.net to whom I solemnly tip my biretta for the newsflash. o{]:¬)
27. Juni 2007, 18:35
Motu proprio zur ‘Alten Messe’ am 7. Juli
Kardinalstaatsekretär Tarcisio Bertone übergab am Mittwoch in Rom das Schreiben an 30 Bischöfe – Kardinal Lehmann in Rom – Papst bei Vorstellung dabei – 3-Seiten-Dokument und 4-Seiten-Begleitbrief – Von Paul Badde / Die Welt
Vatikan (www.kath.net/DieWelt)
Das Dokument, mit dem Papst Benedikt XVI. die alte tridentinische Liturgie aus eigenem Willen (lat.: „motu proprio“) für die gesamte katholische Kirche wieder freigibt, ist am Mittwochnachmittag rund 30 Bischöfen aus aller Welt in der Sala Bologna des Apostolischen Palastes von Kardinalstaatsekretär Tarcisio Bertone übergeben worden.
Die Bischöfe waren eigens dafür nach Rom eingeladen worden. Am Ende der Begegnung, in der das Papier zusammen mit einem erläuternden Begleitbrief vorgestellt wurde, kam auch Benedikt XVI. selbst zu der Vorstellung. Eine Diskussion der Entscheidung war jedoch nicht mehr vorgesehen. Das Dokument stellt auf knapp drei Seiten lang eine Epochenwende der katholischen Messfeiern dar.
Der Begleitbrief umfasst gut vier Seiten. Aus Deutschland war Kardinal Karl Lehmann, der Vorsitzende der deutschen Bischofskonferenz, zu der Übergabe eingeladen. Alle Umstände des Vorgangs machen deutlich, wie sehr dem Papst daran gelegen war, dass die Bischöfe den brisanten Inhalt „in einem besonderen Akt kollegialen Entgegenkommens“ von ihm selbst und nicht aus der Presse oder anderen Medien erfahren sollten.
Die allgemeine Veröffentlichung beider Dokumente ist für den 7. Juli vorgesehen. Die Erläuterungen des Begleitbriefs halten noch einmal ausdrücklich die Einheit des römischen Ritus fest. Der eine Ritus wird sich jedoch ab jetzt in eine ordentliche und eine außerordentliche Form gliedern, die sich fortan gegenseitig befruchten sollen.
Die ordentliche Form wird weiterhin der neue Ritus sein, den Papst Paul VI. 1969 mit einem beispiellosen Federstrich verfügt hat. Als außerordentliche Form bleibt nun aber auch der lateinische Ritus erlaubt, den Papst Johannes XXIII. zum letzten Mal 1962 im offiziellen „Missale Romanum“ niederlegte, dessen Grundzüge zum letzten Mal im Konzil von Trient (1545 – 1563) festgelegt worden waren.
Partial translation.
Believe Fr. Z when he says he has a solid lead! o{];¬)
Deo gratias, Alleluia! Tom
Comment by TJM — 27 June 2007 @ 11:04 amFather Z,
Is yours a translation of that which was published on Kath.net? or is this some other information – it seems almost too direct to be true! Besides, isn’t 7 Jul a Saturday? Would that be unusual to release a document on a Saturday?
Comment by Sacerdos in Aeternum — 27 June 2007 @ 11:08 amHow reliable is this source?
Comment by Zach — 27 June 2007 @ 11:09 amSacerdos in Aeternum,
If my memory serves me right, the staff in Vatican City work a half-day on Saturdays.
Comment by JB — 27 June 2007 @ 11:11 amjust finished my translation
Comment by Gerald Augustinus — 27 June 2007 @ 11:12 amhttp://closedcafeteria.blogspot.com/2007/06/official-motu-proprio-on-july-7th.html
DEO GRATIAS!
Comment by David — 27 June 2007 @ 11:23 amIt would be interesting to know who these 30 bishops are and what rational guided thier selection. Are they the 30 most “difficult” bishops? the 30 most influential in difficult geographic areas? 30 evenly distributed around the globe?
Comment by Dan — 27 June 2007 @ 11:26 amAAAAAHHH It is done!
Comment by Hammerbrecher — 27 June 2007 @ 11:26 amTranslation now on kathnet
http://www.kath.net/detail.php?id=17154
Comment by Paul, South Midlands, UK — 27 June 2007 @ 11:30 amCardinal Lehmann, who was there, is head of the German bishops conference
Comment by Gerald Augustinus — 27 June 2007 @ 11:30 amThere is a news report that 51 bishops are to receive the pallium on June 29. My guess is that many of the 30 were from this group, perhaps those who happened already to be in Rome.
Comment by Dan — 27 June 2007 @ 11:33 amDeo Gratias!
I wonder how long before the name and/or text leaks…
Comment by Bede — 27 June 2007 @ 11:36 amI have a setting of Non Nobis, Domine, all ready to sing for the occasion, so now all I need is a choir to sing it. A quartet would do.
Comment by Chris Garton-Zavesky — 27 June 2007 @ 11:40 amFr. Z,
Comment by Jim — 27 June 2007 @ 11:50 amI trust you will be one of the first to whom the document is leaked.
So we all know what this means.
Amendment to 2007 traditional liturgical calendar:
Comment by C.M. — 27 June 2007 @ 11:50 amJuly 8 – Commemoration, Sunday in the Octave of the Motu Proprio
Wonderful! I do love the image of Cardinal Lehmann having explained to him exactly what the Pope is going to do. I wonder who the other bishops were. It sounds as though they were intended to be a geographically representative group, who could then inform their regional confreres.
The Holy Father’s wisdom in all this does shine through, it must be said. Not only has he planned the promulgation for the perfect day for the consumption of champagne. He has also made it very hard for the bishops to make a public fuss, by treating them with every possible consideration throughout the process of making and announcing his decision. Doubtless, many of them will now be considering already how obstructive they can get away with being, but I think the Pope has gone a long way towards drawing their sting in advance.
Incidentally, I highly recommend babelfishing the German text above; the results are particularly amusing.
Comment by Cerimoniere — 27 June 2007 @ 11:51 amFather, Your fears are allayed. You will not be on the road as the motu proprio comes into the world. I, on the other hand, will be driving south to Canada over the next two days – which days are sure to see some interesting press items as the inevitable leaks occur. Should we keep the “Widow” on ice until the 7th?
Comment by Denis Crnkovic — 27 June 2007 @ 12:01 pmCeremoniere: I do love the image of Cardinal Lehmann having explained to him exactly what the Pope is going to do.
Rule #2.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 12:05 pmDenis: What I would like to do is fly back to Rome for the press conference. I have Vatican Press Office credentials. But… whew! Not cheap at short notice.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 12:08 pmA very glorious day.
You might want to consider posting this to Drudge and your local TV Stations so that the message can get out there. If the general public and be made aware of this, then it will be harder for certain bishops to hide it under the rug. Also for those in the US remember that news on a Friday or Saturday is not well reported.
Comment by Joseph — 27 June 2007 @ 12:08 pmFr. Z didn’t dilly dally in getting the “package” out of the fridge.
Comment by Hammerbrecher — 27 June 2007 @ 12:08 pmSo do we start drinking now, or wait til the 7th? :-)
And as an interesting coincidence, Sunday July 8th, the day after the MP is published, I will be attending my very first TLM in Atlanta. (trip to Atlanta for Mass was planned a few days ago.)
Comment by Janet — 27 June 2007 @ 12:12 pmThat first Latin Mass will be doubly sweet in the light of this news!
The translation on Kath.net is mine, so you just know it’s true :oP We started cooperation, translation-wise, a few weeks ago. They tend to get news pretty early, aided of course by being in Europe. I check them before I go to sleep, which is always late. I’ll be in Austria for the Pope’s visit, where I’ll be on the kath.net bus :)
Comment by Gerald Augustinus — 27 June 2007 @ 12:18 pmFr Z,
You crack me up with you tipping of the biretta! You solemnly do it; happily do it. You could get into adverb mania—jauntily tip the biretta. Just as I was chuckling over that, I see the picture at the end. I sure hope you don’t try to drink all of that. But if you do, best to stay away from the blogosphere.
Comment by John — 27 June 2007 @ 12:26 pmFr. Z.,
I’m right in the middle of studying for the Missouri Bar Exam, which requires that we memorize a ton of legal rules and such, and now you’re asking me to review your Five Rules as well? I come onto this blog to take a break from studying, not to be bombarded with more! :)
But seriously, my most heartfelt thanks on providing excellent commentary and guidelines throughout all these months of anticipation. You are a priest who truly embodies the right attitude that one should take towards both liturgical tradition and love for the Holy Father (even if you didn’t realize the requirement for the shoe buckles until a few weeks ago.) Keep up the great work!
Comment by ThomasMore1535 — 27 June 2007 @ 12:28 pmCommemoration, Sunday in the Octave of the Motu Proprio
Sure, why not? After all, the Orthodox have the “Sunday of Orthodoxy” comemmorating the day on which the ikons were returned to the churches.
Comment by dcs — 27 June 2007 @ 12:35 pmSo, how long can we expect to wait until the contents of the MP are leaked?
Comment by JB — 27 June 2007 @ 12:41 pmI assume that what will happen now is that these bishops, if they are heads of conferences, will return home and distribute the document to the bishop members of the conference.
I can imagine when the head of conferences get back to their respective conferences and handing the motu propio with tipex all over it or saying that it got lost on the aeroplane or some dog ate it.
Comment by Andrew — 27 June 2007 @ 12:43 pmGLORIA IN EXCELSIS DEO!
Comment by NIels R — 27 June 2007 @ 12:45 pmGloria in excelsis Deo!!
Fábio
Comment by Fabio G. Durante — 27 June 2007 @ 12:57 pmSão José dos Campos, Brazil
Et in terra Champagne hominibus
Comment by Peter — 27 June 2007 @ 12:58 pmAndrew: I can imagine when the head of conferences…
I can imagine them obediently carrying out the Pope’s will.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 1:02 pmChris G-Zavesky – I sing alto …
Comment by berenike — 27 June 2007 @ 1:07 pmExactly 5 minutes after reading the MP I will be placing my request for a Traditional Latin Mass with my local parish priest (me and at least 30 of my friends).
Comment by Arieh — 27 June 2007 @ 1:11 pmTime to do the paraliturgical happy dance.
Which raises an interesting question—since it’s an American show, would Ren and Stimpy’s song be translated as “Beata, beata, laetitia, laetitia”?
Comment by Maureen — 27 June 2007 @ 1:11 pmMaureen!
Now I cannot get Ren& Stimpy out of my head!
(Strange mental picture of Ren in Roman chasuble furiously angry at Stimpy, resplendent in gold dalmatic “You Eeeeediot!! Never light Benediction candles for a low Mass
“)
Comment by Tim Hallett — 27 June 2007 @ 1:18 pmMaureen and Tim:
Now you’ve both got me singing (well humming, anyway) and laughing out loud.
The people I work with have definitively decided that I’m loopy.
Joy!
Comment by Bede — 27 June 2007 @ 1:27 pm07/07/07 – from the perfect number.
Was this a coincidence though, or chosen for a reason?
Comment by Joe — 27 June 2007 @ 1:30 pmHeh, heh….
Btw, it seems that July 7 (besides being the feast of Blessed Pope Benedict XI, St. Bonitus the abbot of Monte Cassino, several members of a family of Anglo-Saxon princess abbesses, and such great Irish saints as St. Palladius the bishop before Patrick and St. Maolruain* the abbot of Tallaght) is the day of commemoration of the translation of the relics of St. Fermin to Pamplona.
Yes, my friends, the same day as the Running of the Bulls.
Somebody somewhere has a sense of humor….
- For St. Maolruain, “The locals maintained a long-standing custom of processing house-to-house, dancing jigs, and drinking, on his feast, until it was suppressed by the Dominicans in 1856”.
Comment by Maureen — 27 June 2007 @ 1:30 pmAwwww, Father, just this once :)
In all seriousness, my apologies. I do appreciate the importance of those principles, and am careful to apply them in personal dealings. The reminder that they also apply to what can be read in the blogosphere is well taken, however, and I’m sorry.
Comment by Cerimoniere — 27 June 2007 @ 1:34 pmMaureen: Yes, my friends, the same day as the Running of the Bulls.
Wait till 07/07/07 to see a real running of the BULL in the liberal press.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 1:35 pmPaul Badde, who wrote the article, is the Vatican correspondent of Die Welt. He’s authored several books http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-de&field-keywords=badde%20paul&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-3_books-de_11832931_2&results-process=default?tag2=de-de-google-21
Comment by Gerald Augustinus — 27 June 2007 @ 1:36 pm“Father, Your fears are allayed. You will not be on the road as the motu proprio comes into the world. I, on the other hand, will be driving south to Canada over the next two days – which days are sure to see some interesting press items as the inevitable leaks occur. Should we keep the “Widow†on ice until the 7th?
Comment by Denis Crnkovic — 27 June 2007 @ 12:01 pm”
From what part of the world does one drive south to Canada? Detroit? The North Pole?
Comment by Michael — 27 June 2007 @ 1:39 pmWhispers in the Loggia,no enthusiast of the TLM and for a longtime a believer that the stories of the MP were myth,reports the meeting and then suggests that juiy 7th be called “Tridentine Independence Day”.
Comment by fr.franklyn mcafee — 27 June 2007 @ 1:40 pmMichael: Should we keep the “Widow†on ice until the 7th?
Hmm…
I would say….
Open the first bottle now.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 1:41 pmWhat time is the party?
By the way, the bottle on the far right is mine. :-)
Comment by Partycrasher from St. Paul — 27 June 2007 @ 1:42 pmFr. Franklyn: “Tridentine Independence Day”
Which, while glib, is to misunderstand entirely what this document is all about. Not a surprise, considering.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 1:42 pmIt may be advisable to host a July 7 MP celebration at each of our homes and inviting 30+ family and friends. Then simply collect the signatures before everyone staggers home.
Comment by schoolman — 27 June 2007 @ 1:42 pmNunc dimittis servum tuum, Domine, secundum verbum tuum in pace:
Quia viderunt oculi mei salutare tuum…
Comment by Jon — 27 June 2007 @ 1:53 pmSo when should we start praying a novena of thanksgiving, and which would be the best to pray?
Comment by Jacob — 27 June 2007 @ 1:57 pmJacob: Perhaps the Te Deum would be a good way to observe these intervening days.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 1:59 pmPffft I had it a lot earlier than Roccoco Palmo :) Here a French article, also reporting the same:
http://www.la-croix.com/article/index.jsp?docId=2307230&rubId=4078
Comment by Gerald Augustinus — 27 June 2007 @ 1:59 pmToday is the Feast of Our Lady Help of Christians… I think it very fitting that it was handed out to the Bishops today.
Comment by Anna — 27 June 2007 @ 2:01 pmHaving been born on July 7, this would be a heckuva present!
Comment by Quoheleth — 27 June 2007 @ 2:07 pmIs there any way we can confirm that Burke and O’Malley have the MP? Where did you get that information Fr. Z? While I would love to be totally overcome with ecstasy over this wonderful bit of information, but I feel like I need a little more confirmation from reliable sources. This is really huge news and there is hardly any major news providers covering it, at least last time I checked it. I would love to rejoice but I do not want to get my hopes up. Thanks.
Comment by Joe from St. Paul — 27 June 2007 @ 2:10 pmFor a few weeks our little Gregorian Schola has been practicing the propers for the Feast of Ss. Cyril and Methodius (July 7th on the earlier calendar) for our monthly first Saturday indult Mass (btw, will the phrase “indult Mass” now give way to “motu Mass”?). I casually mentioned to our director that since I will be out of town for the July Mass, probably the Holy See would pick that day to release the motu proprio. All of this would happen, of course, because a. forty years of waiting has left me unsurprisable and b. Cyril and Methodius are saints dear to my heart, being the ultimate founders of my beloved Glagolitic / Church Slavonic rites. It is also nice to note that the good Slavs had a real run-in with certain bishops over the use of the Slavonic vernacular and the Pope had to step in. Ironies abound.
Michael: Ah, the southern perspective! From Minnesota to southwest Ontario via Michigan.
Comment by Denis Crnkovic — 27 June 2007 @ 2:10 pmThe link is a Ratzinger discussion of the fruits of the previous MP.
http://www.unavoce.org/tenyears.htm
Comment by Saint&Sinner — 27 June 2007 @ 2:12 pmJoe: but I feel like I need a little more confirmation from reliable sources.
You didn’t believe me before, I suppose, when I said it was at the printer? Why believe me now?
o{]:¬/
Trust Fr. Z!
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 2:14 pmFr. Z: You didn’t believe me before, I suppose, when I said it was at the printer? Why believe me now?
I do believe, help my unbelief
Comment by Joe from St. Paul — 27 June 2007 @ 2:28 pmYes, yes, yes, yes!
[does the Snoopy dance]
Comment by Roman Sacristan — 27 June 2007 @ 2:29 pmTe Deum laudamus!
Paul Badde is also editor of the German “Vatican magazin”, the now independent former German edition of ITV.
The July 7th publication (Sts. Cyril and Methodius in the old calendar as mentioned) could be (apart from prevalent practical considerations, no doubt) intended to highlight the richness of our liturgical heritage.
Comment by Berolinensis — 27 June 2007 @ 2:31 pmCould 7/7/7 have been chosen to symbolically counter the “spirit of 666”?
Comment by Mark Jacobson — 27 June 2007 @ 2:36 pmAlleluia,
Comment by danphunter1 — 27 June 2007 @ 2:47 pmI hope His Holiness offers holy mass on Sts.Cyril and Methodius feast day, in the Tridentine Rite.
Mark,
7 was chosen because it was Mickey Mantles number.
Praise the Lord.
I have been reading on several blogs, etc. that folks are wondering why no details of the document have leaked…
with so few clerics being able to decipher Latin, is it any surprise?
Comment by Paul — 27 June 2007 @ 2:48 pmIF the Motu Proprio is released on 7 July, His Holiness might be enjoying a small bit of ironic humor.
In 1969, the Roman Calendar was signed on 14 February. NOT made public. That same day, a group of Eastern European bishops were in Rome for their ad limina. They met with Paul VI.
Father Bugnini noted that they did not realize they were visiting on what would now be the feast of their patrons, Cyril and Methodius (who are also among of the patrons of Europe, of course).
Comment by Dr. Lee Fratantuono — 27 June 2007 @ 2:50 pmFather,
Comment by Michael — 27 June 2007 @ 2:55 pmAny chance it might leak out before then?
“..Guarda che ssoleeeeee
Comment by Fabrizio — 27 June 2007 @ 2:56 pmch’è sortito Nanniiiiiiiiiiii
che profumo de rose, de garofani e panzeeeeeeeee…” (hic!)
Wonderful news Father Z!
Comment by WRiley — 27 June 2007 @ 2:58 pm07/07/07 – from the perfect number.
Was this a coincidence though, or chosen for a reason?
As a professional mathematician and amateur numerologist, let me assure you that this happy and blessed event was fore-ordained from before all time.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 27 June 2007 @ 3:32 pmBut, fore-ordained or not, precisely where did this 07/07/07 date come from? Just a half hour ago as I write, at 5:22 pm EDT, Rocco posted:
According to a well-placed intercept following today’s presentation of the motu proprio on the Tridentine Mass to a group of 30 … the understanding among the attendees was that, ... the text will be made public in the Bollettino of the Holy See Press Office as early as Roman noon tomorrow.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 27 June 2007 @ 3:58 pmRocco Palmo is usually a day late a dollar short when it comes to spreading Vatican gossip and slander. Maybe he’s right this time. If so, who cares?
Comment by Jordan Potter — 27 June 2007 @ 4:07 pmI am not exactly a fan of his, but I wouldn’t impute those faults to him. And if he is right this time, I care a lot: it means that joy cometh in the morning!
Comment by Cerimoniere — 27 June 2007 @ 4:16 pmMaybe the 30 in attendance was the reference for all we heard about the number 30 being some sort of restriction on the celebration of the classical Liturgy…?
Comment by Raymundus — 27 June 2007 @ 4:17 pm13 Dec 1545: The Council of Trent to reform the Church began with the meeting of 30 bishops …...
Comment by James — 27 June 2007 @ 4:19 pm7-7-07, nice
Comment by proudpapa — 27 June 2007 @ 4:20 pm“And if he is right this time, I care a lot: it means that joy cometh in the morning!”
Instead of next week? We’ve waited this long—10 more days won’t hurt us any more than it hurt the disciples waiting for the Holy Spirit.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 27 June 2007 @ 4:23 pmI see what you mean, of course, but all things being equal, I’d prefer sooner rather than later. Obviously, whenever it’s released, that will be a time that the Holy Father has picked for a reason, and I’ll be happy with that. Still, if it’s tomorrow, my day will turn out lots happier than it would otherwise have been. I’m also thinking of the various traditional Masses for SS. Peter & Paul that will happen on Friday, that wouldn’t otherwise be possible.
Comment by Cerimoniere — 27 June 2007 @ 4:34 pmWait for the text, folks. The proverbial Devil might be proverbially in the proverbial details.
Comment by Sid Cundiff — 27 June 2007 @ 4:48 pmMOTU PROPRIO
!!
Comment by Father Bartoloma — 27 June 2007 @ 5:07 pm“I see what you mean, of course, but all things being equal, I’d prefer sooner rather than later. Obviously, whenever it’s released, that will be a time that the Holy Father has picked for a reason, and I’ll be happy with that. Still, if it’s tomorrow, my day will turn out lots happier than it would otherwise have been.”
Oh yeah, I’d prefer sooner also. And in any case, I’m still going to check the Bolletino at the Vatican website tomorrow, even if I don’t have the greatest faith in Rocco’s whisperings.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 27 June 2007 @ 5:11 pmRight, me too! And of course, you’re right to be sceptical. Someone has the wrong end of the stick here, for sure, but it’s worth a look.
Comment by Cerimoniere — 27 June 2007 @ 5:20 pmConverte nos Deus salutaris noster!
Comment by Le Renard — 27 June 2007 @ 5:33 pmDEO GRATIAS!
Comment by Jennifer — 27 June 2007 @ 6:12 pmGive Rocco credit-he has been on target on some Vatican items.He predicted that Levada would go to CDF and that Bertone would become secrtetary of state.He also predicted long ago that Foley would become a cardinal.
Comment by fr.franklyn mcafee — 27 June 2007 @ 6:15 pmFr. F: His Excellency Archbishop Foley is not yet a Cardinal. He may be named as one someday, but he is not one yet.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 6:19 pmGreat news, BUT it seems as if the local bishop still has authority over the whole deal. I only hope that the Motu Proprio is “air tight” protecting the rights of priests and laity to have the TLM. As we all know, most bishops and their friends in the chancery, if allowed to do so, will find a way to limit it. They did it in the past, and, if I know “the powers to be” they won’t go down without a fight! So rejoice, but not too loudly yet!
Comment by Serafino — 27 June 2007 @ 6:19 pmThere seems to be an implicit assumption among us that our bishops, successors to the Apostles though they be, are less open than the rest of us to the great outpouring of grace that would come with right liturgy throughout the Church. That we want right liturgy, but they don’t. Isn’t there something about this that just doesn’t add up? Does it make sense to assume that our bishops are the worst of us?
Comment by Henry Edwards — 27 June 2007 @ 6:43 pmGreat news, BUT it seems as if the local bishop still has authority over the whole deal.
Comment by Serafino
Where have you been? It has been said here over and over that the putative out will favor the priest.
Comment by RBrown — 27 June 2007 @ 6:43 pmFather Z, Do you really believe American Catholics will be “dancing in the streets†over this MP??? My personal opinion is it won’t make a blip on a heart monitor. Our church has a Latin Mass community (they celebrate the Tridentine Mass) and it has been a train wreck. They never became the “leaven†our dear pastor was hoping for when he invited these refugees from SSPX to our church (I was part of the leaven). Instead, they have caused complete havoc on the Body of Christ. Their complete lack of charity was so bad even some of the FSSP priests asked to leave because they couldn’t handle the discord.
!
Comment by Adrienne — 27 June 2007 @ 6:52 pmI’m afraid I “hear†a lot of the same tone from these fine folks on your blog. Spiritual superiority is a grave sin! I know that for a fact —- I had lots of it when I was with SSPX. Lord forgive me for being such a snob
This reminds me of the famous time when Napoleon was mad at the Pope and told a French Bishop, “I am going to destroy the Catholic Church.”
Comment by Nick — 27 June 2007 @ 6:53 pmThe Bishop smiled and said, “Dont bother sir, us bishops have been trying to do that for hundreds of years, and we still havnt been able to do it.”
Read history and weep, Henry. That’s how it’s been for most all of the 40 years since V2. You can try figuring out why. We’re all sick & tired of the subject and just want to get over the horrors of V2 gone wrong.
Comment by swmichigancatholic — 27 June 2007 @ 6:55 pmAdrienne: Father Z, Do you really believe American Catholics will be “dancing in the streets†over this MP???
I assume you mean Catholics who are Americans rather than those who identify themselves as members of a chimeric “American Catholic Church”. No, I don’t think anyone will dance. Traditionalists aren’t into much dancing when it comes to Mass and the liberals will hate this. Those in between? They will care less. However, the point is not whether huge numbers of people flock to the older Mass. The greatest influence, I think, will be on younger priests who will begin to learn how to say Mass in a different way because they will want to know this form of Mass.
Our church has a Latin Mass community (they celebrate the Tridentine Mass) and it has been a train wreck. They never became the “leaven†our dear pastor…. Their complete lack of charity was so bad even some of the FSSP priests asked to leave because they couldn’t handle the discord.
They should have had my Five Rules of Engagement, right? This demonstrates what I have been talking about for so long. However, your experience is not everyone’s experience. I know places where things are very serene and everyone gets along. It takes one bad apple to spoil a barrel, too. It doesn’t take much, either way.
But we must try.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 7:00 pmAdrienne,
This will make it possible for large numbers of people to find a latin mass at least once that does not have the properties you describe.
I know here the Latin mass is at a weird time & it’s attended by people who luckily are nice enough but they’re well out of the mainstream. Most people would feel odd being there. This will eventually change that. Every Catholic ought to be able to at least visit the Mass of the Ages without being made to feel bad about it. It IS part of our heritage, you know.
Comment by swmichigancatholic — 27 June 2007 @ 7:08 pmSo what’s your record for the most comments on a single post?
Comment by Zach — 27 June 2007 @ 7:25 pmZach: If you are addressing me, I am not really not sure what the highest comment count is. Good question. Will this be up there.
When I posted about Cardinal Dias asking for prayers for the success of the Letter to Catholics in China, there was not a single response, which was a little sad. Think about they have suffered.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 7:32 pmI still don’t believe it. (I happen to remember a sure thing way back when, right before Ernest Byner fumbled on the one yard line.)
Comment by David — 27 June 2007 @ 7:38 pmDavid: Yes, seeing is believing. However, today the SecState distributed copies of the document to at least 30 bishops. They received the Pope’s explanatory letter. The Holy See doesn’t start distributing things like this which were so locked down under tight security unless they mean to make it public. We shall wait a few more days.
May I suggest you spend some time in prayer?
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 7:45 pmFr. Z –
Consider me rightly chastened on the China question. Indeed, the agenda of this Holy Father, as it takes shape, is wonderfully worthy of our prayers – not just the liturgical matters –
1. freedom of the faith in China
2. the reform of the liturgy
3. victory for the “hermaneutic of continuity”
4. reunification with the Churches of the east
5. and expanded diplomatic/peace agenda for the Church
Wonderful.
Comment by Augustine — 27 June 2007 @ 7:56 pm“Where have you been? It has been said here over and over that the putative out will favor the priest.” Comment by RBrown.
I have been here, and I for an Italian, I think my understanding of English is good!
It has been reported that the “delay” in the MP was due to the concerns of bishops who felt they were not going to have enough authority over the conditions for the use of the MP. Both the code of canon law and liturgical tradition favor the bishop in matters liturgical, not the priest. Until we read the MP, there is still a concern.
Comment by Serafino — 27 June 2007 @ 8:01 pmAugustine: It is all of a piece. The Church has the right to her language, symbols, identity and to express them in the public square, everywhere and always.
Pope Benedict knows we must reconnect with tradition. Nothing is more important than a “hermeneutic of reform” regarding our liturgical life, which shapes who we are as Catholics more than anything.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 27 June 2007 @ 8:02 pmFr. Z says, ”
Comment by Dan O — 27 June 2007 @ 8:16 pmFr Z says May I suggest you spend some time in prayer?
The light from the sanctuary lamp in the Sabine chapel is very inviting. Praying the compline along with the audio from the Vatican website is a very pleasing way to end this day.
Dan O
Comment by Dan O — 27 June 2007 @ 8:20 pmInteresting to know which Bishops were present.
Archbishop Burke (a big supporter of the TLM) is set to ordain some priests for the ICRSS at the seminary near Florence in a few days, so that might explain his presence.
Comment by Jonathan Bennett — 27 June 2007 @ 9:31 pmTo Janet who is attending her very first TLM in Atlanta. I believe you are referring to St. Francis of De Sales in Mableton outside of Atlanta where I am a parishioner. I would be happy to meet you at the church and help you during Mass with the missile. We are a very happy tight group and have wonderful holy Priests. I like to attend the high Mass at 11:30am. We also have a beautiful choir. Confession is 1/2 hour before Mass. Just ask for Maureen, there are two of us, one dark brunett, I have light colored hair.
Comment by Maureen — 27 June 2007 @ 10:14 pmDeo Gratias!
Comment by The Guelf — 27 June 2007 @ 10:31 pmOremus pro Pontefice nostro…
Quoth Cerimoniere:
Yes, it would be nice if others are able to share my joy.
God willing (please, God), I will go to a Pontifical High Mass that evening (7:30) at Holy Rosary Church in Portland, OR, celebrated by Bishop Kenneth Steiner, auxiliary Bishop of the Portland Archdiocese. The Ordinary will be from Missa Cum jubilo with the Propers from Byrd’s Gradualia, and will be sung by Cantores in Ecclesia, one of the finest sacred music choirs in existence.
http://www.rdrop.com/~jamesb/cantores/index.shtml
One of the few good things in the OCP catalog:
http://www.ocp.org/products/12014
Anyone in the Portland area may want to join me (just don’t take my seat!)
Gloria in excelsis Deo! Tá Dia go maith! (God is good)
Comment by Seumas — 27 June 2007 @ 10:53 pmFather, when I see requests for prayer, I usually feel it is prayers that are needed, rather than responses; so I just pray.
The only exception is when someone asks for prayers for themselves or someone close, and for which a response to let them know I’m praying may be consoling.
Perhaps others do the same.
Comment by Seumas — 27 June 2007 @ 11:02 pmAll ye of little faith:
Comment by Berolinensis — 28 June 2007 @ 3:21 amIT’S OFFICIAL, see today’s bollettino:
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/20493.php?index=20493&lang=ge
Agimus tibi gratias omnipotens Deus!
Adrienne: “Our church has a Latin Mass community (they celebrate the Tridentine Mass) and it has been a train wreck. They never became the “leaven†our dear pastor was hoping for when he invited these refugees from SSPX to our church (I was part of the leaven). Instead, they have caused complete havoc on the Body of Christ. Their complete lack of charity was so bad even some of the FSSP priests asked to leave because they couldn’t handle the discord.â€
Well… Our church has had a Novus Ordo community for about 40 years, and it has been a train wreck. They never accomplished the deeper spiritual renew that our bishop had hoped would come ever since 1970 when it was first put into place, especially when he invited his Novus Ordo priests to be open to those who dissented regarding core Catholic doctrines. Instead they caused complete havoc on the Body of Christ. Their complete lack of doctrinal clarity has led to the lowest Mass attendance in 50 years, because people just can’t handle the discord, horrible music, lack of reverence and sense of the sacred, and doctrinal inconsistency.
Comment by David — 28 June 2007 @ 4:23 amAdrienne: I take it that your TLM community consists of people largely outside the mainstream of the Church.
However, my own TLM community consists largely of people who are within the mainstream, and are active contributing members of their parishes in other ways, and attend the Novus Ordo Mass just as devotedly as the TLM.
In my experience, yours is more typical of former SSPX members, while mine is more typical of indult communities consisting largely of people who have stayed in ordinary parish life through thick and thin.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 28 June 2007 @ 4:33 amGenerally, I post that I’m praying if it’s a prayer request for someone likely to read the comments. If not (and especially if it’s a very solemn prayer request), it seems more fitting just to pray.
Sorta like the old Usenet days, when a good post got lots of responses, but a great post received the acclamation of stunned silence. There was nothing more to say, so nobody said it.
Comment by Maureen — 28 June 2007 @ 6:32 amI have been here, and I for an Italian, I think my understanding of English is good!
I agree that it is good.
It has been reported that the “delay†in the MP was due to the concerns of bishops who felt they were not going to have enough authority over the conditions for the use of the MP. Both the code of canon law and liturgical tradition favor the bishop in matters liturgical, not the priest. Until we read the MP, there is still a concern.
You’re not going far enough: Both the code of canon and liturgical tradition favor the pope over the bishop and priest. If the Holy See says that a rite can or should be used, then . . . causa clausa causa finita.
You might remember that was how vernacular liturgy was crammed down the throats of everyone—both bishops and priests.
Comment by RBrown — 28 June 2007 @ 6:44 amMaureen,
Comment by Janet — 28 June 2007 @ 6:54 amThank you so much for the kind offer! If you know Nora and Chris (siblings), I will be with Nora that morning, but will also look for you. I’d like to also meet you, and perhaps we can all sit together.
So far my experience of people in the TLM community is that they are all kind, friendly, and full of the warmth of God’s love. Judging by Adrienne’s post, there are apparently exceptions, and I’m hoping those exceptions are rare.
(Fr. Z, my apologies for replying to a personal note on your blog. Mea culpa…)
Abp. Burke recently ordained 2 priests in the Tridentine Rite in STL, for the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest at the cathedral. These were the first ordinations of their kind in America. It was quite an advertised event nationally (well, among Catholics). So perhaps his presence is quite relevant to the issuance of the MP.
Thanks for all of your updates!
Comment by Peggy — 28 June 2007 @ 7:08 amOur church has a Latin Mass community They never became the “leaven†our dear pastor was hoping for when he invited these refugees from SSPX to our church (I was part of the leaven). Instead, they have caused complete havoc on the Body of Christ. Their complete lack of charity was so bad even some of the FSSP priests asked to leave because they couldn’t handle the discord.
I wonder whether you’ve got a bunch of malcontents from outside your parish. If Latin Masses are more available, it is likely that they would be more dispersed.
I think it’s necessary to distinguish between being charitable and being nice. I have known people living together outside of marriage who reject Church teaching on a variety of matters. Nevertheless, they go to Communion—and so their friendliness was not a manifestation of charity.
I wonder whether, like many other parishes, yours has become comfortable with the spiritual sloth and rejection of doctrine that afflicts most of the Church in the West.
I’m afraid I “hear†a lot of the same tone from these fine folks on your blog. Spiritual superiority is a grave sin! I know that for a fact —- I had lots of it when I was with SSPX. Lord forgive me for being such a snob!
Comment by Adrienne
Who said spiritual superiority is a grave sin? How does it compare to being pro-abortion, practicing contraception, having vasectomies, and favoring women’s “ordination” to the priesthood?
Comment by RBrown — 28 June 2007 @ 7:09 am“Who said spiritual superiority is a grave sin?”
Jesus for one. St. Paul for another. Humility is not optional. We are too esteem others as better than ourselves.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 28 June 2007 @ 7:18 amWell, I guess Rocco Palmo was almost right—something did appear on the Vatican website about the forthcoming Motu Proprio, although it wasn’t the text of the Motu Proprio. And he could yet turn out to be right that the Motu Proprio will be promulgated before July 7. Of course, you wouldn’t need Vatican insider information to predict that the Press Office might have a bulletin about yesterday’s meeting, given the media reports of the event and the great interest so many around the world have in the Motu Proprio.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 28 June 2007 @ 7:28 amDon’t support Rocco, just pray for him.
Comment by Hammerbrecher — 28 June 2007 @ 7:45 amJordan,
Comment by danphunter1 — 28 June 2007 @ 8:02 amBut not our spirituality,if our Spirituality is Catholic.
If I am Catholic,my Spirituality is certainly better than Moslem or Buddhist spirituality.
Jordan,
The sin is not spiritual superiority, there can objectivly be better spiritualities. The sin would be pride (hubris) that it is my doing, that I am responsible for being in a better place than another. We should love the other so as to desire them to reach a better place.
Comment by Hammerbrecher — 28 June 2007 @ 9:01 am“Who said spiritual superiority is a grave sin?â€
Jesus for one. St. Paul for another. Humility is not optional. We are too esteem others as better than ourselves.
Comment by Jordan Potter
Not quite correct. Humility is not optional, but a sense of spiritual superiority doesn’t necessary mean grave matter.
The spiritual superiority that is a grave sin is the preference of one’s own opinion to matters of faith and, in so far as charity proceeds from faith, preferring the company of those who also disagree with certain matters of the faith.
Adrienne’s description indicates that these people are jerks, but being a jerk is not grave matter.
Comment by RBrown — 28 June 2007 @ 9:02 amDanphunter:
But not our spirituality,if our Spirituality is Catholic.
If I am Catholic,my Spirituality is certainly better than Moslem or Buddhist spirituality.
The spiritual path we are following is better, yes. But any individual Catholic may not be following it as well as an individual Moslem or Buddhist is following their path. Only God can know that for certain, and humility requires us to recognize that possibility.
Comment by Karen Russell — 28 June 2007 @ 9:03 amOne other point: It is true that we are to esteem others as better than ourselves but not to the point of blindness. For all my sins, I still think I’m better than the serial murderer in Wichita.
Comment by RBrown — 28 June 2007 @ 9:05 amYeah RBrown, that error is a false humility..
Comment by Hammerbrecher — 28 June 2007 @ 9:40 amThe spiritual path we are following is better, yes. But any individual Catholic may not be following it as well as an individual Moslem or Buddhist is following their path. Only God can know that for certain, and humility requires us to recognize that possibility.
Indeed. We can be perfectly correct, and still be damned for our sins, and they can be in error and still be saved, if they cooperate with such graces as they have received.
I took Adrienne to be referring to spiritual pride, which certainly can be very grave. Being aware that you are right where billions of other people are wrong can give rise to that temptation easily enough, and being right where hundreds of millions of other Catholics are wrong even more so! This is the challenge, to persevere in charity and humility.
Comment by Cerimoniere — 28 June 2007 @ 10:33 amDan said: “But not our spirituality, if our Spirituality is Catholic. If I am Catholic, my Spirituality is certainly better than Moslem or Buddhist spirituality.”
Adrienne wasn’t referring to comparative spiritualities, she was talking about an attitude of spiritual superiority or snobbery toward those who do not assist at SSPX or Indult Masses. Of course a Catholic spirituality is superior to non-Catholic spiritualities, but that isn’t what Adrienne was talking about.
Hammerbrecher said: “The sin is not spiritual superiority, there can objectively be better spiritualities. The sin would be pride (hubris) that it is my doing, that I am responsible for being in a better place than another. We should love the other so as to desire them to reach a better place.”
Yes, pride is the underlying problem of manifestations of spiritual or religious snobbery.
RBRown said: “Not quite correct. Humility is not optional, but a sense of spiritual superiority doesn’t necessary mean grave matter.”
Again, it’s not just a sense of spiritual superiority, it’s an attitude of spiritual superiority and consequently how one beahves toward one’s fellow Christians. The Pharisee thanked God that he was not an extortioner, not unjust, and not a collaborating tax collector. Of course it is good not to extort, not to be unjust, and not to compromise or collaborate with the enemy for the sake of personal gain. But Jesus still said the Pharisee was at fault, because of his attitude of spiritual superiority. “I thank You that I am not like other men,” he prayed, when in fact he was no different and no better than other men. In the same way, it is good to care about the liturgy and the spiritual health of the Church—but not in such a way that you’re looking down the end of your nose at those with whom you disagree.
“The spiritual superiority that is a grave sin is the preference of one’s own opinion to matters of faith and, in so far as charity proceeds from faith, preferring the company of those who also disagree with certain matters of the faith.
Adrienne’s description indicates that these people are jerks, but being a jerk is not grave matter.”
I think Adrienne’s description indicates they were a bit more than just rude or insensitive or ill-mannered.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 28 June 2007 @ 11:28 am