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Benedict XVI on vast, outdoor Masses: “there is a problem”
Paolo Rodari of Il riformista has an interesting piece about the Pope reaction to a question put to him during his recent meeting with the clergy of Rome. The question was about the problem of the huge outdoor Masses which became a norm during the pontificate of John Paul II.
Here is Rodari’s piece, in my translation, with my emphases and comments.
That the papal liturgies are changing enormously, also thanks to the arrival of the Pope’s new Master of Ceremonies, the Ligurian of the [late Card.] Siri school, Msgr. Guido Marini, is something well-known. Behind Marini, of course, is the Pope, for whom the liturgy of all time is to be celebrated in a new way (which as a matter of fact hasn’t been done for a long time), that is, faithfully following the rules – regardless of ‘old’ or new’ Missal – so as to offer a dignified whole that is respectful of what is taking place.
As a case in point, the Pontiff spoke about this a few days ago (7 Feb) in the traditional and purposely spontaneous parry and riposte which, as happens every year at the beginning of Lent, takes place behind closed doors between him and the priests and deacons of Rome.
Among the ten questions presented to Ratzinger, one was dedicated to Masses celebrated with huge crowds, those which – to be clear – more and more became the established practice during the pontificate of John Paul II. Those which, still, for logistical reasons are for example ever more frequent for spiritual retreats and large ecclesial movements.
The Pope listened in silence to the question offered to him, responded, and then in the following days, made an important decision about it.
But let’s be orderly. The question put to the Pontiff was unimpeachable in its formulation and went like this: "How do we reconcile the treasure of the liturgy in all its solemnity and with the sentiment, emotion and excitment of masses of young people called to participate in it?" Benedict XVI responded immediately that, in effect, there is a problem: "Liturgy in which masses of people participate", he said, "is a big problem."
[This part is fascinating.] The Pope recalled that everything began with a question presented in 1960 during a large International Eucharistic Congress at Munich, about how there could be the celebration of the Eucharist also at such events. To adore, it was said at Munich, can be done also at a distance, but to celebrate a limited community is necessary which can interact with the mystery. At Munich many expressed negative opinions regarding the hypothesis of celebrations of the Eucharist in the open, even with one hundred thousand people or more. But it was the Austrian liturgist Josef Andreas Jungmann, one of the architects of the liturgical reform, who created "the concept of ‘statio orbis‘" and thus legitimated celebrations as vast as oceans: in substance, if there exists the "statio Romae", and thus the place where the faithful gather to then go together to the Eucharist, so then there can exist also (and this is the case with Eucharistic Congresses), a "statio orbis", the gathering place of the world. [And some critics of Pope Benedict’s liturgical decisions have made the dopey comment that he isn’t a "trained liturgist". But he knew this and had it at the tip of his tongue during a Q&A.]
It is thanks to Jungmann, therefore, that today there are large Mass celebrations. Even so, for Ratzinger, these represent a problem for which a definitive response – as he said himself on 7 February last – "has not yet been found" also because, "if there concelebrate, for example, a thousand priests, you don’t know if this is the structure the Lord wanted." [KABOOM! This is the key. Pope Ratzinger fishes the whole question out of the soup of pragmatism and brings it back to Christ’s will. As Pope, Benedict must concern himself primarily with what God wills before he makes practical decisions. So, the question is no on the floor: are these mass Masses a good response to the reality of large crowds who want to be with the Pope? Should Communion and concelebration, perhaps, be more limited?]
In the meantime, the Pope said, there is needed at least to find "a certain style to preserve the dignity that is always necessary for the Eucharist." [Well… they haven’t done a very good job so far.] In the last large mass celebrations at which Ratzinger participated, for example at the recent gathering at Loreto, all these problems with these celebrations were present and the situation, he said, "didn’t depend on me, but rather on those who were tasked with the preparation".
And so, there is the solution, for now only partial, but nevertheless necessary, in view of the upcoming ocean-sized Masses: for two occasions on the apostolic visit to the United States (on 17 April in the new Nationals Park and 20 April at Yankee Stadium in New York) and those foreseen for World Youth Day in Sydney. In the USA and Australia, the Pope decided not to delegate any longer the organization of celebrations to third parties. And so he asked that, in the next days, that his Master of Ceremonies, Msgr. Guido Marini, should fly across the oceans (both the Pacific and Atlantic) with the precise task of studying the locations to be used for the liturgical functions with the end of taking on direct responsibility for carrying out celebrations in those spaces; that the result might be Masses that are as vast as oceans, but at least characterized as much as possible with composure and discipline.
So glad to hear this! My God child is going to Sydney and the priest who is the spiritual director of this group of young people who are going will be very glad as well. Some one actually said the Pope was not a trained liturgist!? Well, maybe it depends on what is meant by the word “trained.” Perhaps they want to say, The Pope is not a brainwashed liturgist. And I say thanks be to God!
Comment by Ruthy Lapeyre — 19 February 2008 @ 5:08 amWe won!
Comment by Fr Renzo di Lorenzo (TRILOGY) — 19 February 2008 @ 6:31 amOur pope is brilliant! What more could us Catholics ask for than a man who understands theology and then can express it in the most simple and endearing terms for the faithful? His reverence for God and His will supersedes any present needs for pragmatism or convenience. How welcome is the truth.
Comment by T Erasmus — 19 February 2008 @ 6:41 amI have partcipated in a few of these mass Masses as referred to in the article and I absolutely felt they were composed and disciplined. I also KNOW that Our Lord was there, that Calvary was there. These were moving and spiritual momemnts for me. To celebrate the Lord’s Supper and at the same time to be with our Holy Father, God willing, the soon to be Saint John Paul II, the Great!
Comment by Mike — 19 February 2008 @ 6:48 amI guess I just chuckled inside thinking about Msgr. Marini studying Yankee Stadium as a site for a Papal Mass. “Hummmmm. What is this? White square like things? A mound in the middle? Statues of what saint….Babe Ruth? Hummmm. Definitely meets the vast as an ocean requirement, yes…...hummmmmmmmm. May be a bit tricky to do composure and dignity. Kneeling looks to be out as an option. Interesting organ. How’s the weather here?.....Hummmmmm.”
Comment by FHC — 19 February 2008 @ 7:12 amI am not a fan of con-celebrated Masses in the first place, with the exception of Masses of Ordination and the Chrism Mass at which the bishop presides. In is interesting to note, that the code of canon law does not require a priest to con-celebrate Mass. Each priest retains the right to celebrate his own Mass.
Secondly, having assisted on more than several occasions in the administration of Holy Communion during the outdoor “Mega Masses” of John Paul II in St. Peter’s Square, I can assure you, it was less than edifying.
In one particular group of Americans, there were young people chewing gum, drinking soda, laughing and talking as they approached to receive Holy Communion. They were jumping all over each other in an attempt to “grab” the Blessed Sacrament from my hands.
It is interesting to note, that when Mass is celebrated in the Basilica of St. Peter’s, I have never noted these abuses. I would suggest, that the Holy Father end these outdoor “Mega Masses”, and celebrate in a Sacred Place.
Comment by Serafino — 19 February 2008 @ 7:15 amAre we going to see an eventual move away from these dreadful mass mob concelebrations in the open? It has to be said that for all his great virtues it was John Paul II who really popularised the practice, under the direction of Piero Marini.
Comment by The Expectation of Our Lady — 19 February 2008 @ 7:19 amIn case someone is interested, I have posted a translation of Pope Benedict’s entire answer over at the New Liturgical Movement last Sunday: http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2008/02/pope-benedict-on-masses-with-multitudes.html.
As for what Rodari says regarding the Pope’s solution, I think this is just Rodari’s interpretation: the papal MC has always been closely involved with the the liturgical celebrations also on the pope’s trips.
Comment by Gregor — 19 February 2008 @ 7:23 amLONG LIVE THE POPE!
Comment by Prof. Basto — 19 February 2008 @ 7:52 amIm in ur liturgee curbin ur abyoosez.
Comment by PBXVI — 19 February 2008 @ 8:02 amPBXVI – Comedy gold. I hope the other people reading WDTPRS know the meme you’re using.
Comment by Jeff Pinyan — 19 February 2008 @ 8:13 am“We won”. Please. That’s not the point. A little Christian dignity to all this, I beg.
I don’t know where I stand on this. I agree with Pope Benedict’s desire to ensure the solemnity of the liturgy. But surely we can admit the good fruit that came from these amazingly large outdoor Masses.
How does one reconcile these?
“you don’t know if this is the structure the Lord wanted”. Well, come on. What does that mean really? Did the Lord want freestanding altars, people facing East, naves, pews, kneelers? It was an upper room with couches/pillows as was customary in Christ’s day and age.
Lastly, what role does the Scriptural example of the feeding of the multitude play in this?
Thanks, Fr., Z for your post.
Comment by Fr. Michael — 19 February 2008 @ 8:16 amFr. Michael
“Lastly, what role does the Scriptural example of the feeding of the multitude play in this?”
Absolutely nothing.
Comment by Angelo — 19 February 2008 @ 8:36 amFr Michael,
Comment by Stephen — 19 February 2008 @ 8:39 ammy thoughts exactly. Surely it is not the size of the congregation but rather the need to educate those participating that counts. If the liturgical reforms come to fruition and we begin to see a more dignified silent presence at the Holy Sacrifice-especially in the ordinary form, then surely this will eventually translate into these huge gatherings, which in a sense do mirror the great miracle of the feeding of the five thousand. I find it difficult to see that God would not want to see these Masses continue. One final thought. Doesnt the world youth day bring into sharp focus the universality of the Church gathered around Peter?
Stephen
Our Holy Father is appointed as chief Shepherd to protect his flock from error. I trust his judgement on this issue. I love my “German Shepherd”!
Comment by jim veryser — 19 February 2008 @ 8:47 amMike,
I think what you describe is precisely the situation Benedict want’t to avoid. There was a sense at those Masses that people were gathered at Mass to be near the Pope, not the Lord. He was being called John Paul the Great years before he had even died, a title that can hardly be assigned to him at this point in time, since we don’t know whether his legacy will indeed be greater than all of those great and saintly popes who were never given that title. A priest friend of mine remembers distributing communion at one such WYD Mass, and remembers vividly the dozens of teenagers climbing over top of each other, trying to grab a host consecrated by JPII. One of the major newspapers came out with a story shortly after the pope’s funeral about John Paul’s first “miracle.” A man claimed to have been healed by a host JPII had consecrated. That the Blessed Sacrament’s association with the John-Paul was the most important thing to these people is disturbing to say the least. John Paul had become a rock star long before he died. People were coming to see him, John Paul the Great, and a cult of his personality developed. In the true spirit of humility, Benedict wants these masses of young people to see the Lord when they assist at Mass, not “Benedict the Great”. Seated in his throne, he wants them to see the Vicar of Christ, not Joseph Ratzinger.
Comment by Michael — 19 February 2008 @ 8:49 amOur Holy Father has been appointed as Chief Shepherd to protect us- his flock.
Comment by jim veryser — 19 February 2008 @ 8:52 amWe need to trust his judgement on this issue. I love my German Shepherd!
Gang:
Comment by J Basil Damukaitis — 19 February 2008 @ 8:52 amI was part of the papal liturgy in St. Louis in 1999. What is happening now is NO DIFFERENT than what Piero Marini did. I remember bumping into Abp. Marini and Abp. Rigali at our Cathedral. Piero M was a very precise man and nothing escaped his planning or his eye. This is NOT a change in the way things have been done. The change is in the person actually doing it!
Fr Michael, Stephen,
if you read what the actually pope said (see: http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2008/02/pope-benedict-on-masses-with-multitudes.html), you will find that he didn’t just say there is a problem, but actually gave reasons for that and gave more context.
Comment by Gregor — 19 February 2008 @ 8:53 amSeems to me that Jesus celebrated with the ‘masses’ in large outdoor settings when he multipled the bread and fishes. Don’t get so hung up on the place that you miss the message and the Holy Spirit. If you lived in 32 AD would you go to the hillside to seek grace or would you wait in the Temple waiting for grace to seek you? Pray about it.
Comment by Franklin — 19 February 2008 @ 8:54 amI agree with Pope Benedict’s desire to ensure the solemnity of the liturgy. But surely we can admit the good fruit that came from these amazingly large outdoor Masses.
Also my thoughts as I read through some of the comments.
It used to be that anyone could enter almost any parish in the world, witness a mass and inhale a universal Catholic church/faith. Once that disappeared with so many parishes appearing as just another local protestant church with various personal expressions being emphasized over the universal connection, it seemed that the world as well