NLM on the Papal Mass at Nationals Stadium

NLM has gotten into the act at last, posting an entry about the Holy Father’s Mass in Nationals Stadium.

You should also be visiting their site, but here – at least today – you can read what they offer with my emphases and comments.

It is the grace of all Americans to have Pope Benedict XVI visit this country. And it was to the grave embarrassment of all American Catholics that the music employed at the papal Mass at the Nationals stadium in Washington, D.C., not only represented a repudiation of everything that this pope has written on music appropriate to Mass. We can go further to say that there is no robust tradition of liturgical scholarship that is capable of defending what happened, and that is because it is indefensible.  [Okay... that's a "No" vote from NLM.]

By now the news is out—the whole world watched this liturgy—and I don’t want to rehearse all the details of the pieces of music in question. It is too painful, [agreed] and there will be plenty of Youtube videos [Oh Lord... I forgot about that....] around for many years to remind us more than we want to be reminded.

Let us talk about principles.

In the name of "multiculturalism," the Pope was subjective to music more suitable to dingy dance halls than Churches. The Psalms of David were distorted to the point of ear-splitting dissonance. The congos, pan flutes, meringue rhythms, the jazz and blues and rock, the swaggering vocals, went beyond even the most pessimistic predictions.

Indeed, when Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation finally came on at the Sanctus, it was a moment of dignity [Wow... is that sad or what?  When Haugen's stuff is actually a relief?] —so much so that I want to take back all my negative comments back when I thought that this Mass setting was unsuitable for a Papal Mass. I don’t think anyone knew before this what the phrase "unsuitable" could really mean.

I personally feel the greatest hurt toward American Catholics of diverse races and ethnicities, who have been quite viciously caricatured here. How wounded they must personally feel by this presentation done in their name.

Blues and jazz – intended to appeal to African Americans? What about those African Americans who sing in chant scholas, are accomplished singers, are working to actually compose excellent sacred music?  [I just had this conversation in Virginia a few days ago when, while travelling there, I stopped at a historic church where there was a Sunday Mass taking place.  Had it not been for the stained glass windows, I would have had not a clue I was in a Catholic church.  I would have thought I was in a southern baptist church.  Who was it that told Catholic African Americans that they had to do certain sorts of things when, for so long, they were simply Catholic along with everyone else?]

Meringue for Hispanic Americans? Please. Does this include the Hispanic scholar who wrote me about an hour ago with heartbreak at what saw and heard? He is an expert in the polyphonic music tradition of Latin America, and has done extremely important work in showing how the themes from chant strongly informed the construction of 16th century mass settings.

And were all those wacky instruments somehow supposed to appeal to Asians? I recall can’t go on here. There is grave insult at the heart of all these attempts to construct styles that appeal to all people, pigeonholing their tastes the same way a racialist writing in the 1930s might do. This is not unity but division. [Whew....]

I know that none of this was intended, [They were trying to give us a sense of "New Pentecost", I think.  It turned out to be the opposite.  The division of languages is a sign of man's divisions, whereas at Pentecost people heard the apostles in unity, their own languages.  I think Latin could have done that.] but let us remember that we are united in Christ, united in our Catholicism. The Pope has written in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy that the issue of multicultural was confronted and dealt with early in the Christian history, as the Roman Rite developed to deal with intense diversity of early converts from many regions and language groups. The result was the Latin language in liturgy, and Gregorian Chant and its timeless and universal sound, together with the text of the Psalms that speak to universal impulses in the human person. True multiculturalism is achieved in the Roman Rite itself, a point which is still emphasized in Church teaching. [Amen.  Well said.]

This is not inaccessible knowledge. The Second Vatican Council stated very plainly that Gregorian chant and polyphony should enjoy primacy of place at Mass. This teaching has been restated by the Pope time and again. This is not his personal taste at work, nor mine. Chant is the music of the Mass. Styles that elaborate on chant are also suitable. What the liturgy does not admit are styles that are at war with the liturgical sense and purpose of reaching outside of ourselves and into eternity. We face a choice between Apollo and Dionysius, wrote Cardinal Ratzinger.

"The Church’s Tradition has this in mind when it talks about the sober inebriation caused in us by the Holy Spirit. There is always an ultimate sobriety, a deeper rationality, resisting any decline into irrationality and immoderation. We can see what this means in practice if we look at the history of music. The writings of Plato and Aristotle on music show that the Greek world in their time was faced with a choice between two kinds of worship, two different images of God and man. Now what this choice came down to concretely was a choice between two fundamental types of music. On the one hand, there is the music that Plato ascribes, in line with mythology, to Apollo, the god of light and reason. This is the music that draws senses into spirit and so brings man to wholeness. It does not abolish the senses, but inserts them into the unity of this creature that is man. It elevates the spirit precisely by wedding it to the senses, and it elevates the senses by uniting them with the spirit. Thus this kind of music is an expression of man’s special place in the general structure of being. But then there is the music that Plato ascribes to Marsyas, which we might describe, in terms of cultic history, as “Dionysian”. It drags man into the intoxication of the senses, crushes rationality, and subjects the spirit to the senses. The way Plato (and more moderately, Aristotle) allots instruments and keys to one or other of these two kinds of music is now obsolete and may in many respects surprise us. But the Apollonian/Dionysian alternative runs through the whole history of religion and confronts us again today." [This morning in Nationals Stadium.]

Let me add here as an aside that I do not believe it is correct to describe this as a typical "American" event. The fact is that there are hundreds of parishes in this country that have wonderful liturgy, gorgeous music, and musicians all over the country are working very hard, at sometimes little or no pay, to learn sacred music and use it in liturgy. This is a movement of great vibrancy and growing numbers, and all the trends here are up in every way. This movement involves mostly young people who are seeking to do their best. They are Americans too. It is wrong to let a small cable [I think that is 'cabal'] that took control of the Washington liturgy define the whole country and its liturgical sense." [Right.  I think that is one of the most insulting and disappointing results of this.]

What is the current situation in the aftermath of this Mass? There is no question that anger, even fury, is palpable. The USCCB has been deleting comments from its own website. Fr. Richard J. Neuhaus, in his running commentary on EWTN, expressed astonishment. The blogs are overflowing with bitter comments. The traditionalists are having a grand time, unjustly [not to mention stupidly] trashing the "Novus Ordo," as if the ordinary form of the Roman Rite is responsible for this.

Something tells me that this Mass is a defining moment, and possibly the end of an era. [A last gasp?]  For many years, a certain tendency of liturgical aesthetic has said that we need to loosen up, use music that appeals to our sense of things as collected from the secular world, to use music that has a beat and is drawn from the world in which we live. We need to forget all that solemn chant and "classical" stuff and move on. And what we saw this morning was the result — perhaps not the intention, but once you lose track of the liturgical ideals, there are no limits. The "no limit" model was put on display for the Pope himself this morning, while onlookers cringed. [I know my reaction, hearing this at a distance, overly amplified, etc.  I will look forward to hearing reactions of people who were actually there.  I hope they chime in with their impressions and those of people around them.]

I can understand the outrage, but the question is how it can be turned toward the good?reductio ad absurdum of the pseudo-multicultural, non-liturgical approach to music, where can we turn to re-root ourselves? The answer is the same now as it has always been: The Graduale Romanum and Church legislation. [As Msgr. Schuler used to write again and again when he was editor of Sacred Music: "Just do what the Council asked!"] The propers attached to the Votive Mass of the Holy Spirit, the Mass that was offered this morning, are posted at Cantemus Domino. You will hear in them the true music of the Church.

But can these propers and a Gregorian ordinary really sound right in a stadium? [That is a good question.]  It’s all the more important that they be used in this setting, as a way of infusing the place with the dignity and solemnity of the Christian liturgy. [Okay... but I am only half way with this: I am not sure there should be stadium Masses.  But that is another question.]  And who will sing them? There are Gregorian scholars around the Washington area. There are workshops. There are chant books and tutorials. There is a way to learn them and sing this music that is appropriate to the Mass. [There is no way anyone will ever convince me that in that metropolitan area, the nation's capitol, a Gregorian schola could not have been developed which would have brought the whole listening world to their knees in wonder at what America can do even with liturgical music.  The White House ceremony the day before, and the perfect propriety of every single piece performed, put this whole thing to shame.]  If it is done properly, the music not only enhances the Mass; the Mass itself dwells within the music, not as performance art but as sung prayer. This is the ideal. No effort to provide music for Mass should ever proceed without an awareness of that ideal.

Without that ideal, what are we left with? Let the Pope answer:

"When the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? [The music for this Mass split us from our past, from elsewhere in the world, and from ourselves as a blended nation.  It totally failed.]  Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds – partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council."

Let us use this occasion to recommit ourselves and re-root ourselves to the Church’s own liturgical language. Let us close the chapter on this event and move on. Let us stop what we have been doing to our heritage of inestimable value. We can do better. We must. Benedict’s own writings show the way.

 

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95 Responses to NLM on the Papal Mass at Nationals Stadium

  1. ecwoods says:

    Isn’t it a bit ironic that in the ‘Extrodinary Rite’ you cannot have this kind of barbarism since it is always done the same(except for High or Low), it really is a safeguard against this type of thing.

  2. Jason in San Antonio says:

    “The White House ceremony the day before, and the perfect propriety of every single piece performed, put this whole thing to shame.”

    I think you nailed what I was feeling, Father.

  3. Not surprised at all with their music selection. Maybe, just maybe it’ll give the Pope an idea of what we suffer week and and week out here in America.

  4. Bob K. says:

    We knew this was coming weeks ago!. Petitions were made!. And not one thing was done about it!. Only highlight for me, as well as the Pope was Placido Domingo. That was it!. So much for “pride of place for Gregorian Chant”!. I wonder what the good Archbishop Wuerl had to say about this event?. Like I said before. Next Papal visit to the US the FSSP priests along with the Vatican should take control of all Vespers and Masses!. Not the liberal liturgists that we had for this one!.

  5. Volpius says:

    That was a quick repair Father bravo.

    And the write up was worth waiting for wasn’t it, I think it pretty much covered everything and said it far better than I could.

  6. Tom says:

    NLM wrote: “The blogs are overflowing with bitter comments. The traditionalists are having a grand time, unjustly trashing the “Novus Ordo,” as if the ordinary form of the Roman Rite is responsible for this.”

    Father Z inserted the following comment, which I have set off for emphasis: “The blogs are overflowing with bitter comments. The traditionalists are having a grand time, unjustly…….[not to mention stupidly]…….trashing the “Novus Ordo,” as if the ordinary form of the Roman Rite is responsible for this.”

    1. I argue that the claim that Traditionalists are having a grand time, unjustly, trashing the “Novus Ordo” is sweeping and uncalled.

    Traditionalists love the Church and to claim that Traditionalists as a whole have a “grand time” trashing the Novus Ordo is preposterous. Did such a great liturgical scholar as Monsignor Klaus Gamber have a “grand time” when he “trashed” (critiqued) the Novus Ordo? The majority of bishops during the 1967 Synod “trashed” the Novus Ordo. Did they do so to have a “grand time?”

    Did Michael Davies, a holy Catholic man and friend of Josef Cardinal Ratzinger (our Pope) have a “grand time” when he “trashed” the Novus Ordo?

    To claim that traditionalists are having a “grand time trashing” the Novus Ordo is a sad and preposterous statement.

    Traditionalists have pointed out in sober and convincing fashion the inherent weakness and failure of the Novus Ordo. It is a shame that certain Catholics are unable to accept reality regarding the Novus Ordo.

    2. Father Z, I disagree, of course, with your “not to mention stupidly” remark.

    What a shame that Traditionalists, whose arguments regarding the Novus Ordo simply mirror the remarks and scholarly work, for example, of such a great Churchmen as Monsignor Klaus Gamber, are classified as “stupid.”

    Father Z, I realize that you are a holy man and great and important priest…Holy Mother Church needs you…but Traditionalists have not trashed the Novus Ordo “stupidly.”

    Traditionalists have advanced scholarly arguments against the Novus Ordo Mass, which, as many bishops insisted during the 1967 Synod, would all but empty our parishes…and that has come to pass.

  7. PAUL BRENNAN says:

    dear fr.z

    i have just send a comment to the usccb

    its still there

    thank you so much for your blog.

  8. Romanrevert says:

    OK… we all agree that the music was abysmal. Here is my question .. why doesn’t the Holy Father tell them not to play that sort of garbage? Who’s in charge here? If you let the loony “liturgists” in the US orchestrate the Mass, this is what we end up with! Perhaps I am naive when I ask what to me is an obvious question … why doesn’t the Holy Father just say no and do it HIS way? He is the Pope, after all….

  9. Arieh says:

    Why is it that those who wish to promote “multiculturalism” seem to think that the best music a culture has to offer is that which is typically played in a tavern?

  10. Carolina Geo says:

    There are some days when, to be perfectly blunt about it, I feel ashamed to be Catholic, and I wonder if I wouldn’t be better off in the Orthodox Church, where I would still have access to valid sacraments but without all of the idiocy.

    This is one of those days.

  11. DJY says:

    At the same time, should we not pause on what Father posted a little below:

    A few small things were modified…they include a request that a crucifix be placed on the altar for eucharistic celebrations

    They needed to ask for a crucifix?

    It seems the Holy Father and his staff are so busy with fundamental issues, we can hardly expect much by way of music and the like!

  12. Tom says:

    NLM commentary: “The whole world watched this liturgy…It is too painful…This is not unity but division.”

    Let me get this straight…it is unacceptable for Traditionalists to “trash” the Novus Ordo, according to NLM.

    However, it is perfectly acceptable for NLM to trash this morning’s Sacred Novus Ordo Papal Mass?

    Did this morning’s Papal Novus Ordo Mass disobey Church teaching? No.

    Did this morning’s Papal Novus Ordo Mass not adhere to similar liturgies celebrated, for example, by Pope John Paul II?

    Did Pope Benedict XVI and Monsignor Marini object to the Novus Ordo Mass that they knew they would encounter this morning?

    To turn the tables on NLM, how dare anybody “trash” today’s Sacred Novus Ordo Papal Mass. Who determined that today’s Mass in question was “too painful” and featured “division?”

    How dare NLM trash a Sacred Papal Novus Ordo Mass.

    See how easy it is to play the game that Traditional Catholics face each day from, if you will, “conservative” Catholics.

    See how easy it is to play the “let’s shoot the messenger” game.

    NLM is, of course, correct regarding today’s dreadful Novus Ordo Papal Mass. Unfortunately, certain Catholics are simply unable to bring themselves to the true root of the problem.

    The Novus Ordo is the problem itself. Only the Pope’s return to the Traditional Latin Mass can solve the problem of Latin Church liturgy.

    At any rate, it is somehow acceptable for “conservative’ Catholics to trash today’s Papal Mass…but Traditionalist Catholics are trashed for having the guts to tell the truth regarding the root problem with the Novus Ordo.

  13. Braadwijk says:

    Once again, we are given another priceless gem from a bunch of old white men left over the 60′s who are trying to show how hip they still are and who are celebrating how multicultural, PC, and progressive they are. As usual, not only did the people who organized this look like jackasses, they dragged the rest of us down too. The music was uncreative, banal kitsch at best and horribly racist at worst. I am embarrassed as an American that this is how we were represented to the Pope and to Catholics worldwide. What I do not understand is why it is so difficult to follow the Pope’s teaching on what is suitable to liturgy. Rather than focus on what divides us to the level of absurdity, why not focus on the traditions which unite us as Catholics? Gregorian Chant and polyphonic music are common to all of us as Catholics, and its composition is not limited to the European sphere. The American bishops here had the perfect opportunity to show their solidarity with this Papacy and demonstrate an openness to Catholics all over the world. Instead, they chose to celebrate themselves. As a result, the world’s opinion (especially in Europe) that Americans are egotistical racist idiots is only re-enforced. The only good to come out of this is that hopefully the Holy Father will take this to heart when he returns to the Vatican. It is not my intention to hype my disgust about this issue, but what occurred today was inexcusable. I did not think it possible to be more disappointed when I heard that Marty Haugen was to be used at the Mass, but the music today was in such bad taste it made him look halfway decent.

  14. Aaron Magnan says:

    It is a sad, sad, sad thing that the Pope couldn’t watch over the production details before they got to this point. On the other hand, ti is a perfect example of some fo the extemes the American Church has to stomach.

    God bless

  15. Aaron Magnan says:

    It is a sad, sad, sad thing that the Pope couldn’t watch over the production details before they got to this point. On the other hand, it is a perfect example of some of the extremes the American Church has to stomach.

    God bless,
    Aaron Magnan

  16. Luke Maria says:

    The Papal Mass ended up tragic in the musical aspects. The music was an “in your face” event as those who ‘arranged’ this liturgy obviously were not attuned to the words of this pope.
    The music reminded me of the emotive style of those huge “seeker Churches” in my city. Thank god for Placido’s wonderful voice and his magnificent rendention of Panis Angelicus. I was stunned by the music and I pray the Holy Father will not be burdened at the next “American Papal Mass.” God Bless Benedict XVI.

  17. Tom says:

    “Here is my question .. why doesn’t the Holy Father tell them not to play that sort of garbage? Who’s in charge here? If you let the loony “liturgists” in the US orchestrate the Mass, this is what we end up with! Perhaps I am naive when I ask what to me is an obvious question … why doesn’t the Holy Father just say no and do it HIS way? He is the Pope, after all….”

    OK… we all agree that the music was abysmal. Here is my question .. why doesn’t the Holy Father tell them not to play that sort of garbage? Who’s in charge here? If you let the loony “liturgists” in the US orchestrate the Mass, this is what we end up with! Perhaps I am naive when I ask what to me is an obvious question … why doesn’t the Holy Father just say no and do it HIS way? He is the Pope, after all….

    Certain Catholics offer two excuses…

    Excuse A…the Pope is hostage to disobedient Cardinals and bishops. The Pope wishes for this or that, but Cardinals and bishops supposedly yawn and disobey the Holy Father.

    Excuse B…the Pope was ambushed. He didn’t realize that he would encounter such a liturgy that offered today.

    Throughout the reign of Pope John Paul II, the dreadful liturgies and bizarre encumenical/interreligious spectacles were excused by various Catholics who insisted that the Pope expected “X” to occur, but was disobeyed and received “Y”…

    …or that the Pope didn’t have any idea that this or that would transpire during Mass and/or ecumenical/interreligious gatherings.

    In other words, the Pope was presented as weak and devoid of authority.

    Interestingly, when certain Catholics argue that a state of emergency exists within the Latin Church, various people reject that claim and insist that the Pope is in full control of the Church.

    The bottom line is that today’s Papal Novus Ordo Mass was in accord with post-Vatican II liturgical “reforms.”

    Pax.

  18. JPG says:

    One hopes this is not repeated in NYC. I did not see the Mass but the comments raise the spectre that it was a Buzzby Berkley production. The description is painful. I would agree the NO is not the problem but instead the approach and implementation. The teachings aout the nature of the Mass have not changed. What has changed is the approach taken by Liturgists individual priests and Parishes as well as Episcopal conferences. What needs changing is the rubrics and the enforcement. In one sense one wishes Benedict would use more force but this is one percieves not in his nature.
    There may stillbe those in the Curia who would stymy any change in the rubrics to make them more in line with the EF.
    JPG

  19. RBrown says:

    At any rate, it is somehow acceptable for “conservative’ Catholics to trash today’s Papal Mass…but Traditionalist Catholics are trashed for having the guts to tell the truth regarding the root problem with the Novus Ordo.
    Comment by Tom

    If today’s mass would have been a Novus Ordo in Latin, do you think there would have been the same musical circus?

  20. Tom says:

    “On the other hand, it is a perfect example of some of the extremes the American Church has to stomach.”

    I disagree that today’s Papal Mass is an example of the extremes that the American Church has to stomach.

    Today’s Mass was in accord with various liturgies offer by Popes (particularly John Paul II), Cardinals, bishops and priests throughout the Novus Ordo Era.

    What we experienced today was in perfect accord with post-Vatican II liturgical “reforms.”

    What we witnessed today is the tremendous difference between the Traditional Latin Mass and Novus Ordo.

    Today’s style of liturgy could not possibly have been offered had the Holy Father celebrated the Traditional Latin Mass — the Mass that he was ordained to offer.

    Conversely, today’s Papal Mass was possible as the result of the Latin Church having created and adopted the Novus Ordo.

    The Novus Ordo Mass can range from fairly traditional to the supposed “extreme” that we witnessed today.

    Either style is in perfect harmony with Vatican liturgical teachings.

    Sorry, but that is reality.

  21. Tom says:

    I don’t understand the reaction from various conservative bloggers to today’s dreadful Novus Ordo Papal Mass.

    Pope John Paul II offered similiar Mass for years and years…during which time conservatives bashed Traditionalists who objected to said liturgies.

    What in today’s Papal Mass was not in accord with post-Vatican II liturgical reforms?

    Why such anger from conservative bloggers?

    Did they actually expect a traditional Roman Mass today?

  22. Brian says:

    I posted this at NLM and am reposting it here.

    I can add one nice point for the day: the music at CUA when the Pope was present was once again very nice. The choir inside the Pryzbyla Center sang the Tu Es Petrus, and a small choir led the students outside in singing the Regina Caeli (intending to surprise the Pope) when he emerged after the talk was over. The music at the Mass was most unfortunate, but once again in a smaller and lower profile setting sanity prevailed. The Pope’s address to the Catholic university presidents was also most edifying for me, as a graduate student and instructor in philosophy.

  23. Bailey Walker says:

    I was there. The commentators are all correct. The music was intrusive, distracting and patronizing. Unfortunately, even the lovely bits of chant seemed out of place… just another “set” in a multi-cultural Broadway extravaganza. The “band” was too loud. The percussion and horrible “pan pipes” incessant. I felt embarrassed.

    However, most of the folks in the stands around me seemed to take it in stride and treated it as the performance it was, politely applauding just as they would at a concert. Not good. The average Catholic is disconnected from authentic tradition. There is much work to be done.

    The Peloquin responsorial psalm deserves special mention. It was horrible the first time I heard it in the 70′s and it has not improved with age. I could almost feel the Holy Father wince at the dissonant final chord. Very, very bad.

    Perhaps the contrast between what happened today and the liturgies in New York will truly sound the death knell for the sort of thing we had to endure today.

    However, to have an opportunity to be with the Holy Father I’ll gladly endure this and much more. It was a grace-filled moment for me, in spite of the distracting and annoying music.

    Long live the Pope!

  24. John says:

    I say let him experience first hand the horrible liturgical abuses/music. That way the Holy Father can better understand what really needs to be done to put the liturgy back on track.

  25. John says:

    I say let him experience first hand the horrible liturgical abuses/music. That way the Holy Father can better understand what really needs to be done to put the liturgy back on track.

  26. Irulats says:

    Fr. Z. re: test

    Me paenitet. Nunc Scio.

  27. What I don’t understand is the reluctance – no, the refusal – of some commenters to acknowledge that the travesty we all witnessed today is completely consistent with the Novus Ordo. Sure, the Pauline liturgy can be celebrated with external reverence and a nod toward tradition, but then it really becomes a paradox and inconsistent with itself. The spirituality of the Novus Ordo – judging by the content and structure of the prayers – is intended to flexible, open to various interpretations, “non-judgmental”, non-dogmatic, and the like. The rubrics are likewise intended to accomodate a “diversity” of preferences and styles. Tradition in the context of the Novus Ordo is nothing but one possible OPTION among many. To borrow a phrase from Fr. Neuhaus, tradition in liturgy is like orthodoxy in theology: once it becomes optional, it is effectively proscribed.

  28. Woody Jones says:

    I have been at work and so have not seen the liturgy but will probably not now watch the tape I was making. I agree with one of the other writers above that maybe this evidently shameful disply will show the Holy Father exactly how bad things are here in the US (I can certainly imagine the same kinds of things being done here in Houston). These sacreligious displays are products of the pride of the clerics and others putting them on, which should be severely reproached, as good medicine for them and for us. Oh, but I forgot, that kind of thing is only done for the SSPX.
    How ironic that our Protestant President seemed more humble and respectful of the Holy Father than the Archdiocese of Washington.

  29. Christa says:

    Myself, I was relieved that the music for the mass was not worse. Except for the blues song and the “Amazon” music, it was FAR better than what I hear in church each Sunday!

  30. AnonGuy says:

    To be honest I would not have minded the music so much if it had been done outside the context of the liturgy.

    Unfortunately these types of huge stadium Masses promote a spirit of entertainment opposed to what we should truly be focusing on in the Mass. Pope Benedict is aware of the problem, though if I remember correctly he also admitted that there has yet to be a solution. I don’t know if anyone has seriously proposed this to him, but perhaps the Pope should consider dropping these mega-sized liturgies in favor of non-liturgical gatherings where large groups of people can pray devotional prayers and present to the Pope their own music and talents on the side. This would save the Liturgy from a lot of unnecessary abuses that we saw today, without necessarily depriving the people of the experience of being with the Holy Father.

  31. Mark says:

    They didn’t send in the clowns! Where were the clowns? I’m sooo disappointed, this is not an authentic Am-Church Mass without at least one priest in a clown costume!

  32. marcum says:

    The music offered resembled a half-time show at the super bowl.
    What a sad disgrace to the holy father who had to endure
    this modern AmChurch entertainment spectacular.

    His schedule today was very long and this stadium
    Mass was more focussed on typical diversity and PC rather than
    a prayerful large gathering Mass. WHat gives with all this
    “American Idol” worship anyway?

  33. Anthony and Marian says:

    Thank God that we were given the wisdom NOT to watch this Mass. Thank you, God. Thank you, God. Thank you, God.

  34. Janice says:

    I was there also. The music was just awful. The whole thing was awful. I wish the Holy Father would abolish these “cattle call” Masses. Perhaps they woualc substitute a Liturgy of the Word or simply an address by the Holy Father. But subjecting the Eucharist to such disrespect is untenable.

  35. Ioannes says:

    When I got up this morning, I remembered that the altar of St. Patrick’s cathedral is in the east part of the church, and I thought that maybe we would see an ad orientem celebration on Saturday. I actually had my hopes up. Now I’m afraid to watch the liturgy at all. I’ll have to ask someone to tell me whether the replay is worth watching.

  36. Winfield says:

    Please note that in the ninth paragraph from the top, Jeffrey Tucker at NLM actually used the word “Nazi” to describe the racialism of this Mass:

    “And were all those wacky instruments somehow supposed to appeal to Asians? I really can’t go on here. There is grave insult at the heart of all these attempts to construct styles that appeal to all people, pigeonholing their tastes the same way a racialist writing in the 1930s or a Nazi propaganda poster might do. This is not unity but dangerous division.”

    He provides this link: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/start-world-war-2-18.jpg

    In your post, Fr. Z, “or a Nazi propaganda poster” is omitted. Perhaps Tucker added it after you posted.

  37. Jeff says:

    I was at the Mass.

    I don’t like this kind of stuff any more than most of the people here. But I think the dominant motif was–as one commentator on EWTN noted–PRAYERFULNESS, despite the musical problems.

    People were joyful and prayerful and Benedict’s presence and personality brought home to me and I think to many others the wonder of being a Catholic, despite the imperfections of the liturgy.

    I think this is an occasion when we can afford to be lenient with felt banners and HaugenHaas spirituality and simply rejoice in the fact that we are Catholic and in the end, He is with us and so is His Spirit.

  38. David says:

    The blogs are overflowing with bitter comments. The traditionalists are having a grand time, unjustly [not to mention stupidly] trashing the “Novus Ordo,” as if the ordinary form of the Roman Rite is responsible for this.

    That’s unfair statement on the part of Mr. Tucker, and an unfair comment on your part, Fr. Z. Most of the traditionalists I’ve read in regards to this are saying what we have always said: When the novus ordo can be hijacked to served the ideological whims of whoever (progressive liberal or neo-conservative), there is something wrong, not just in praxis, but in form. I think that is a reasonable criticism, not stupid.

  39. mpm says:

    “Perhaps I am naive when I ask what to me is an obvious
    question … why doesn’t the Holy Father just say no and do
    it HIS way? He is the Pope, after all….

    Because, trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit speaking through
    the bishops of Vatican II, and on a pastoral visit to the Church in
    this country, he is not acting like some potentate, but like the
    servant of the servants of God, that’s why. The Pope has to obey
    more than anyone. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote as much.

    [Separately]

    Whatever anyone says about Pres. Bush, you’ve got to give him credit
    for his “class”: his mother taught him good manners. Maybe before
    becoming “certified liturgists” one ought to be give a test in “manners”.

  40. TNCath says:

    A much better lineup, which doesn’t take a rocket scientist to plan, might have been the following:

    Prelude (as the Pope was entering): Tu Es Petrus

    Entrance Hymn: Holy God We Praise Thy Name (the unofficial “national anthem” of the Church in the U.S.)

    Kyrie: Missa de Angelis (I know everybody thinks it’s overused, but, it’s better than what they had today and much more singable!)

    Gloria: Missa de Angelis (Alternating between choir and congregation, no frills!)

    Responsorial Psalm: A simple chant everybody can sing!

    Gospel Acclamation: The traditional triple Alleluia. Why reinvent the wheel?

    Offertory: Perhaps “Ubi Cartias” where the congregation could join in the refrain and some motet by the choir, if time permits.

    Sanctus: Missa de Angelis

    Great Amen: The good old Danish Amen Mass that everybody knows.

    Communion: O Sacrum Convivium (Raimondi)
    Ave Verum (Mozart)
    Then if Placdio Domingo has to do it, “Panis Angelicus,” but tone down the accompaniment. Restrict it to an organ accompaniment and not so overpowering! Let the man’s voice dominate! If you need to throw in an modern English hymn, perhaps Gerard Manley Hopkins’ English translation of Adoro Te Devote (“Godhead Here in Hiding”)

    Recessional: “Now Thank We All Our God” or even “Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above”

    Keep it simple, yet classy. I believe this is what could be called “noble simplicity.” All this “high falutin’” pseudo-professionalism is for the birds!

  41. Devin says:

    I heard from someone who was there that His Holiness actually rolled his eyes when some song with a crazy flute thing started. Dunno how reliable that is…

  42. Devin says:

    I heard from someone who was there that His Holiness actually rolled his eyes when one of the songs(something with a weird flute) started. Dunno how reliable he is, but it’s interesting…

  43. A Philadelphian says:

    “I personally feel the greatest hurt toward American Catholics of diverse races and ethnicities, who have been quite viciously caricatured here.” –

    Yes — nothing but a caricature.

  44. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom, there’s a major difference between criticising a badly-done Mass in the Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite, and bashing the Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite. You and others aren’t bashing bad or inferior liturgical praxis, you’re bashing the reformed Roman Rite. As RBrown has said, “Novus Ordo” doesn’t just mean vernacular Masses with mediocre or atrocious music.

    Anymore than the Extraordinary Use of the Roman Rite only means priests mangling Latin and rushing through Mass, or Mass with hymns only and no chant — even though that was a common experience of pre-Vatican II Catholics in the U.S.

  45. Richard says:

    As another CUA student, I’d like to affirm what Brian said: the music offered for the Holy Father at CUA was a sober step up – and a relief. Especially, I expect, for the Pope himself.

  46. Tom says:

    I realized just now why many conservative bloggers expressed outrage at today’s Papal Mass.

    I failed earlier today to grasp why various conservative bloggers trashed the type of Papal Mass that was offered frequently during Pope John Paul II’s reign.

    When Pope Benedict XVI assumed the Throne of Saint Peter, many conservatives predicted that a staunch liturgical traditionalist who would crackdown on “liberal” bishops and priests had arrived finally to restore order to the (Latin) Church.

    Certain expectations that various conservatives had pinned to Pope Benedict XVI have failed to materialize.

    Conservatives can neither bring themselves to criticize the Novus Ordo itself nor admitted that Pope Benedict XVI and Monsignor Marini knew what to expect today.

    Conservatives are, in reality, angry at Pope Benedict XVI for having participated in today’s debacle…but conservatives are unable to acknowledge they the Pope had disappointed them.

    Therefore, conservatives must pretend that the American bishops “ambushed” the Pope today with dreadful liturgy.

    That is the conservative spin today…that the Novus Ordo isn’t the problem…the problem with today’s dreadful Papal Mass is the fault of the American bishops.

    The conservative bloggers are clever.

    They trashed the Papal Mass…absolved the Pope and Monsignor Marini of any responsibility regarding today’s debacle…and preserved the fantasy that the problem isn’t the Novus Ordo itself.

    The problem is, of course, the Novus Ordo…but conservatives are afraid to reach that conclusion.

    Oh…and conservatives found time today to attack Catholic Traditionalists when they insisted that Traditionalists had a grand time today trashing the Novus Ordo.

    Conservatives trashed the Papal Mass, then trashed Traditionalists who had the guts to point to the root cause of today’s problems: The Novus Ordo itself.

  47. David: When the novus ordo can be hijacked to served the ideological whims of whoever (progressive liberal or neo-conservative), there is something wrong, not just in praxis, but in form. I think that is a reasonable criticism, not stupid.

    Well… maybe so. However, the issue here is really music, and very bad music can be used for the TLM and truly glorious music can be used with the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo does not demand bad music. As a matter of fact, it requires by its internal logic, the great treasury our Church has produced. Moreover, there is actually greater flexibility in using good music in the Novus Ordo.

    What matters is who is choosing the music a why they choose it.

    99.9% of those who criticize the Novus Ordo, criticize it on the basis of abuses which really have nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.

    Can you argue that the Novus Ordo is more susceptible to abuses than the TLM? Sure. But that does not change the fact that the TLM can be celebrated very poorly and the music can be shockingly bad.

  48. Tom says:

    “If today’s mass would have been a Novus Ordo in Latin, do you think there would have been the same musical circus?”

    The watered-down ecumenically-flavored prayers, such as EP II, would have remained in place. Correct?

    Communion in the hand would have transpired today had the Papal Mass been offered in Latin. Correct?

    The Novus Ordo can be offered in Latin, vs. populum, with altar girls and EMs. Correct?

    The above practices are linked to the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct?

    That said, the Novus Ordo Papal Mass offered today was in accord with the liturgical reform. Correct?

    Today’s Tower of Babel Mass (regarding languages) is part of the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct?

    Today’s Papal Mass was a valid Novus Ordo Mass. Correct?

    Today’s Papal Mass was offered with solemnity. Correct?

    I thought that the problem with the Novus Ordo isn’t the Novus Ordo itself…the problems simply revolve around liturgical abuses and proper disposition of the priest.

    But the Pope offered today a liturgical abuse-free Novus Ordo Mass with proper disposition. Correct?

  49. Gerard says:

    From what I’ve heard, this wasn’t a badly performed liturgy.

    Everything was done in accordance with the documents of Vatican II. The letter, not the “spirit” of Vatican II.

    There was no liturgical abuse. The bishops of the Church decided the Liturgy should be that way. That must be God’s way then.

    As S.C. states about the liturgy:

    “…thus shows forth the Church to those who are outside as a sign lifted up among the nations [5] under which the scattered children of God may be gathered together [6], until there is one sheepfold and one shepherd [7].”

    “Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects.”

    “Devotions proper to individual Churches also have a special dignity if they are undertaken by mandate of the bishops according to customs or books lawfully approved.”

    “With zeal and patience, pastors of souls must promote the liturgical instruction of the faithful, and also their active participation in the liturgy both internally and externally, taking into account their age and condition, their way of life, and standard of religious culture. By so doing, pastors will be fulfilling one of the chief duties of a faithful dispenser of the mysteries of God; and in this matter they must lead their flock not only in word but also by example.”

    “Transmissions of the sacred rites by radio and television shall be done with discretion and dignity, under the leadership and direction of a suitable person appointed for this office by the bishops. This is especially important when the service to be broadcast is the Mass.”

    Since there are no objectively quantifiable statements in Sacrosanctum Concilium and so much power is given to the local ordinary. If the Pope doesn’t do anything about it, by definition it’s not liturgical abuse. It’s merely the ordinary form of the Roman Rite celebrated according to the conditions laid out in accordance with Vatican II.

    The Novus Ordo gives those options to the bishops. It’s part and parcel of the Novus Ordo. If people don’t like those options, it’s their fault, not the fault of the Church or rite itself.

  50. Tom says:

    Father Z wrote: “99.9% of those who criticize the Novus Ordo, criticize it on the basis of abuses which really have nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.”

    That is incorrect, Father.

    Great liturgical scholars, such as Monsignor Klaus Gamber, critiqued the Novus Ordo itself and panned the Mass.

    During the 1967 Synod, the majority of bishops rejected the Novus Ordo. They did so, Father, not as the result of their having been subjected to liturgical abuses.

    From the very beginning of the Novus Ordo, Cardinals, bishops, priests, great liturgical scholars and lay Catholics recognized immediately that the Novus Ordo itself was not good for the Latin Church.

    The very men who formed the Novus Ordo boasted that they, for ecumenical purposes, watered-down the prayers and movements of the Novus Ordo.

    Father, you presented the “it’s the liturgical abuses…not the Novus Ordo itself” argument that doesn’t hold much water.

    The bottom line is that great divide between Traditionalists and conservatives has emerged today. Perhaps, Father, you reject being linked to either term. Therefore, I will leave you out of my conclusion to this post.

    Traditionalists and, I believe, many conservatives agree that today’s Papal Mass was dreadful.

    The difference is that Traditionalists have not wavered today from the writings of great liturgical scholars, such as Monsignor Klaus Gamber, who panned the Novus Ordo Mass itself.

    Conservatives remain, in my opinion, in denial regarding the problem with today’s Papal Mass.

    The Novus Ordo itself lends itself to such debacles.

    The Mass at Yankee Stadium may be an improvement over today’s Papal Mass. I hope so.

    But the fact remains that the Novus Ordo lends itself to debacles.

  51. Tom says:

    Father Z wrote: “99.9% of those who criticize the Novus Ordo, criticize it on the basis of abuses which really have nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.”

    Father, what liturgical abuses transpired at today’s Papal Mass that led to the awful Mass that was held at the Nationals stadium?

    The Mass was offered with proper priestly decorum.

    Therefore, we witnessed today the fallacy of the “it’s not the Novus Ordo itself…it’s the liturgical abuses…it’s the disposition of the priest” argument.

    The Papal Mass was offered with proper priestly decorum and devoid of serious liturgical abuses.

    The Mass was, in fact, in accord with various post-Vatican II Novus Ordo liturgical reforms.

    We witnessed today they root problem of the post-Vatican II Latin Church’s liturgical collapse.

    Today’s Papal Mass debacle didn’t have a thing to do with liturgical abuses and improper priestly decorum.

  52. Tomas Lopez says:

    Look on the bright side, everyone: at least there were no “wardrobe malfunctions”! (As far as I could see).

  53. Gerard says:

    Fr.Z,

    If you actually agreed with those of us who believe the problem is the Novus Ordo form itself, and made it public, and those beliefs were based on objective not subjective standards would you get into trouble with your superiors?

    I’m beginning to believe that conservatism in the contemporary church is only a tolerated force in the Church as long as it only restrains and doesn’t actually reverse the progressive forces in the Church according to the evoltutionary process of modernism as described by St. Pius X.

  54. Ioannes says:

    Am not sure where I fit in within the bipartite Traditionalist v. conservative division. I agree with the Sacrosanctum Concilium directives for the revision of the 1962 missal but am still waiting for that revision. I’m not really a fan of the 1962 missal but the 1970 missal doesn’t do much more for me. The directives of the Novus Ordo are clearly partially to blame for what happened today; since the order itself does not abide by the mens of S.C., why should we expect priests and liturgy planners to parse the order’s abundance of options according to that mens? However, I don’t think one need be a champion of the Extraordinary Form (Traditionalist?) to hold that belief.

  55. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said:

    Yes, strictly speaking. Unfortunately it was also saddled with awful music and a “concert performance” mentality that is contrary to a healthy liturgical spirit.

    From what I’ve heard, this wasn’t a badly performed liturgy.

    Then you weren’t listening.

    There is nothing in the Church’s liturgical books that requires bad music, and yet bad music has afflicted both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Uses of the Roman Rite.

    By the way, Tom, I just have to ask: are you ever going to talk about anything at all here except how rotten the “Novus Ordo” is and how the only hope for the Latin Church is to ban it and bring back some version of the pre-Vatican II Mass? Really, I think you’ve about worn out that hobby horse by now — time to trade it in for a new one.

  56. Tom says:

    Jordan Potter wrote: “Tom, there’s a major difference between criticising a badly-done Mass in the Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite, and bashing the Ordinary Use of the Roman Rite. You and others aren’t bashing bad or inferior liturgical praxis, you’re bashing the reformed Roman Rite. As ”

    Bashing? Is that the proper term? Whatever.

    I simply agree with the majority of bishops who, during the 1967 Synod, warned that the Novus Ordo would empty parishes.

    I agree with Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s critique of the Novus Ordo and post-Vatican II liturgical reform.

    I agree with Michael Davies, who was a good friend of Josef Cardinal Ratazinger (our Pope), assessment of the Novus Ordo.

    Is that “bashing” the Novus Ordo?

    So be it if that is the term that you wish to employ.

    At any rate, I stand with the above-mentioned Catholics who did not favor the Novus Ordo.

  57. Jordan Potter says:

    Arrgh. Botched that comment’s html tags. Let’s try again . . .

    Tom said: But the Pope offered today a liturgical abuse-free Novus Ordo Mass with proper disposition. Correct?

    Yes, strictly speaking. Unfortunately it was also saddled with awful music and a “concert performance” mentality that is contrary to a healthy liturgical spirit.

    From what I’ve heard, this wasn’t a badly performed liturgy.

    Then you weren’t listening.

    There is nothing in the Church’s liturgical books that requires bad music, and yet bad music has afflicted both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Uses of the Roman Rite.

    By the way, Tom, I just have to ask: are you ever going to talk about anything at all here except how rotten the “Novus Ordo” is and how the only hope for the Latin Church is to ban it and bring back some version of the pre-Vatican II Mass? Really, I think you’ve about worn out that hobby horse by now — time to trade it in for a new one.

  58. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: I agree with Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s critique of the Novus Ordo and post-Vatican II liturgical reform.

    So does Pope Benedict XVI, and yet there’s no doubt that he doesn’t agree with you. Kind of interesting, that.

  59. William Radovich says:

    Fr.Z: I think we can really tell the difference between the ordinary and extraordinary
    forms of the Latin rite. Any chance that people can get equal time to see
    the extraordinary form in New York? Probably would have had to been planned
    well ahead in the future for it to make the schedule. I bet that there would
    have been many FSSP and/or ICKSP priests and choirs to assist the Holy Father!
    I would have even liked to pray at a Low Mass compared to confusing music.
    Ahhh, prayerful silence at Mass sounds so good now.

  60. adamsaj says:

    “‘If today’s mass would have been a Novus Ordo in Latin, do you think there would have been the same musical circus?’

    The watered-down ecumenically-flavored prayers, such as EP II, would have remained in place. Correct?

    Communion in the hand would have transpired today had the Papal Mass been offered in Latin. Correct?

    The Novus Ordo can be offered in Latin, vs. populum, with altar girls and EMs. Correct?

    The above practices are linked to the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct?”

    Wrong!

    both altar girls and communion in the hand were allowed by indult seprate from the actual reforms (and in theory would be allowed in a TLM, God forbid), and versus populum was (unfortunately) used with the TLM before the reforms.

    regardless, the point isnt that all criticism of the NO is stupid, but that criticizing the NO because of the music at this particular Mass is stupid.

    we need to make a distinction between the substance of the NO and the accadents. ill be the first to point out that the offeratory prayers are weak and the extra Eucharistic Prayers are inferior, but the music at this Mass doesnt prove the NO’s inferiority any more than a priest who hurredly mumbles the latin proves the TLM inferior.

  61. Tom says:

    Tom said: But the Pope offered today a liturgical abuse-free Novus Ordo Mass with proper disposition. Correct?

    Jordan Potter replied: “Yes, strictly speaking. Unfortunately it was also saddled with awful music and a “concert performance” mentality that is contrary to a healthy liturgical spirit.”

    The Churchmen responsible for the Papal Mass disagree with you (and I).

    Regarding the liturgical music that he knew would be performed during the Pope’s U.S. Masses, Monsignor Guido Marini state the following: “I really like this variety of styles that has been prepared for the celebrations.”

    The music employed during the Papal Mass was appropriate for the Novus Ordo, according to post-Vatican II liturgical teachings.

    The Pope offered the Mass in proper fashion. The Mass was offered free of liturgical abuses.

    There you have it…a Papal Mass offered without liturgical abuses and music deemed fitting for the Novus Ordo.

    Today’s Papal Mass was in line with any number of post-Vatican II Papal Novus Ordo Masses.

    Therefore, I don’t understand why today’s Novus Ordo Papal Mass has angered Catholics who favor the Novus Ordo.

  62. Tom says:

    Jordan Potter, I believe, attributed the following comment to me…which was actually posted by somebody else…at any rate: “From what I’ve heard, this wasn’t a badly performed liturgy.”

    Jordan Potter replied: “Then you weren’t listening. By the way, Tom, I just have to ask: are you ever going to talk about anything at all here except how rotten the “Novus Ordo” is and how the only hope for the Latin Church is to ban it and bring back some version of the pre-Vatican II Mass? Really, I think you’ve about worn out that hobby horse by now—time to trade it in for a new one.”

    No…I believe that I will stick to Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s writings regarding the Novus Ordo…Michael Davies’ writings on the Novus Ordo…the majority of bishops in 1967 who warned that the Novus Ordo would empty parishes.

    Sorry, but I believe that the Traditional Latin Mass, as compared to the Novus Ordo, imparts to the Faithful the Catholic Religion in far superior fashion.

    This is Father Z’s blog. I appreciate that. He certainly has the right to ban me and my remarks from his blog. Otherwise, if my remarks bore you, then you are free to ignore me.

    I won’t waver from my beliefs.

    I love Holy Mother Church. I love the Latin Church. I wish for the Latin Church (and, of course, Eastern Churches) to prosper. I love the Holy Father.

    I love the Traditional Latin Mass and believe that regarding liturgy, only the Traditional Latin Mass can lift the Latin Church from Her unfortunate state of collapse.

    I hope always to remain true to my beliefs.

    Pax.

  63. vox borealis says:

    Tom: “I won’t waver from my beliefs.”

    Yes, and after innumerable nearly identical posts we believe you. It is, as they say, a free country, so post away. But I wonder if you have considered that different approach–a varied tone or even slightly different topic–might bear more fruit?

  64. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: Regarding the liturgical music that he knew would be performed during the Pope’s U.S. Masses, Monsignor Guido Marini state the following: “I really like this variety of styles that has been prepared for the celebrations.”

    I also liked the variety of styles that had been prepared for the celebrations. But not all in the same Mass, and not “performed” more as entertainment than as worship (and frankly some of it wasn’t even performed well, and some of it can’t be performed well), and much of it shouldn’t be in Mass at all. I suspect Msgr. Marini might agree with me on those points, and I can understand it if he and the Holy Father didn’t take as direct and immediate a role in selecting the music for such a logistical nightmare as a Stadium Mass is.

    There you have it…a Papal Mass offered without liturgical abuses and music deemed fitting for the Novus Ordo.

    Actually I think there were some places where the music was playing when there should have been silence, but that may perhaps have been inadvertent. Anyway, there’s a difference between “allowed” and “deemed fitting.”

  65. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: Jordan Potter, I believe, attributed the following comment to me…which was actually posted by somebody else…

    Yeah, that was Gerard, not you. Sorry.

    Sorry, but I believe that the Traditional Latin Mass, as compared to the Novus Ordo, imparts to the Faithful the Catholic Religion in far superior fashion.

    You could be right. Unfortunately all we can do is compare the pre-Vatican II Mass at its best with the post-Vatican II Mass as it is usually celebrated (i.e. in a mediocre or worse manner), which is really not a fair comparison. But there’s also the disturbing tendency in the post-Vatican II liturgy to downplay or try to avoid the “hard sayings” of the faith, which shields one from what the Catholic faith really has to say about various topics that people today would rather not think about.

    I believe that I will stick to Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s writings regarding the Novus Ordo…Michael Davies’ writings on the Novus Ordo…the majority of bishops in 1967 who warned that the Novus Ordo would empty parishes.

    Just for the record, Father Zuhlsdorf made a statement about the majority of those who criticise (present tense) the Novus Ordo, but you’ve only referred to people who criticised (past tense) the Novus Ordo, leaving Father Zuhlsdorf’s point unaddressed and unchallenged.

  66. Matt Q says:

    Tom wrote:

    “Father Z wrote: ’99.9% of those who criticize the Novus Ordo, criticize it on the basis of abuses which really have nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.’

    Father, what liturgical abuses transpired at today’s Papal Mass that led to the awful Mass that was held at the Nationals stadium?

    The Mass was offered with proper priestly decorum.

    Therefore, we witnessed today the fallacy of the “it’s not the Novus Ordo itself…it’s the liturgical abuses…it’s the disposition of the priest” argument.

    The Papal Mass was offered with proper priestly decorum and devoid of serious liturgical abuses.

    The Mass was, in fact, in accord with various post-Vatican II Novus Ordo liturgical reforms.

    We witnessed today they root problem of the post-Vatican II Latin Church’s liturgical collapse.

    Today’s Papal Mass debacle didn’t have a thing to do with liturgical abuses and improper priestly decorum.”

    )(

    Tom what you described as being in accord with the Second Vatican Council is NOT what the Council said. It’s what the committees of absurdity have decided about the Novus Ordo over time and the weak Popes which have allowed it to continue.

    I am told by parents and relatives that early on the Novus Ordo was celebrated in a manner much different than today. There was a form of Tradition, reverence and deliberation in the way Mass was said. Even Mass at EWTN doesn’t compare, but the insidious powers that be weren’t satisfied. Cramming the false, but juridically approved form of worship in the Church’s face wasn’t enough. No, they had to carry on with it. For a Missal to be revised three times in forty years–and endless tinkering with the vernacular language especially English to conform more and more to the politically correct–means a destructive effort is underway in the Church. It does not matter whether this is from a genuine sense ultruism on their part but it is still a concerted destructive effort.

    As of now, no matter the fault of the Novus Ordo, it’s here and it needs to be truly structured. If a literal mandate was issued outlining the Yeses and Nos of the Novus Ordo with explicit commands of obedient implementation ( BAWHAWHAWHAWHAW ) the Novus Ordo would then be able to take on a true liturgical co-existence with the Tridentine Rite.

    ==========

    Gerard wrote:

    “Fr.Z,

    If you actually agreed with those of us who believe the problem is the Novus Ordo form itself, and made it public, and those beliefs were based on objective not subjective standards would you get into trouble with your superiors?

    I’m beginning to believe that conservatism in the contemporary church is only a tolerated force in the Church as long as it only restrains and doesn’t actually reverse the progressive forces in the Church according to the evoltutionary process of modernism as described by St. Pius X.”

    )(

    Gerard, this is perhaps the case. I don’t claim to make any assertions about Father Z, but suffice to say things tend to point toward the validity of your comment. Look at Archbishop Ranjith. He spoke in defense of the Pope and his Motu Proprio, outlined the objective disagreement of the bishops towards it and what it spiritually consists of, and he gets in the rear end. No appointment to the position he is best suited for, marginalized in the office he works in, and for how much longer? Is his Curial career dead in the water?

    Look at the McBriens and Greeleys, the Berardins and the Trautmanns of the Church. Not a word of reprimand, not even a hint of censure in what they prattle on about, but let a Traditionalist or a true conservative speak, well, that just must not be.

    Yes, I agree with Leo XIII. The smoke of the Devil **has** entered the Sanctuary. It is only the ignorant or truly evil who refuse to acknowledge this fact.

  67. Gerard says:

    I would also posit one other point about this liturgy. I believe it was deliberately done to show the Holy Father who is “boss.”

    Supposedly these types of tactics were often used against JPII till he finally gave up. Benedict sounds very defeated in his voice as I watch the re-run and hear him go over the baptismal vows at the command of archbishop Dona Wuerl.

    The American bishops have done what bishops all over the world have done, systematically reduced the Pope to being the “mascot” of the Catholic Church.

    They have removed the catholicity from the laiety who have no sense of the sacrifice of Calvary.

    No half measures will take care of this problem. Only an exercise of full papal power can topple this phalanx of apostates that seem to have usurped the power that belongs to Peter alone.

    Now, if they would only relieve Pierre Boulez from playing the organ anymore at this event….

  68. Matt Q says:

    Gerard:

    As I said before, the “church” of Canterbury is alive and well in the Church of Rome. :-(

    Further, this ditty I found touches exactly on what you’re speaking of. The Holy Father gave great and inspiring homilies but they were for those already **in** **the** **know**. On the other hand, as I’ve read elsewhere, “The sad truth is that the Pope said virtually nothing during his welcome visit. All smiles, no teeth. The Left laughs at him, and Pelosi and Kerry take Communion. All so very sad.” Read on.

    )(

    Three hot disputes on the Papal Visit
    by Phil Lawler
    special to CWNews.com

    Apr. 17, 2008 (CWNews.com) – Since it is virtually impossible to keep ahead of the avalanche of stories about Pope Benedict’s trip to the US, let me just pick out three particular debates for comment:

    1. Fallout from the sex-abuse scandal

    The mass media have focused almost obsessively on the Pope’s words about the sex-abuse crisis. But in all fairness, one should notice that it is Pope Benedict himself who opened the discussion, speaking candidly first to reporters on the plane that brought him to the US, then twice again within his first 36 hours on American soil.

    However somber and heartfelt the Pope’s words have been, they are unlikely to satisfy the demands of abuse victims. As the Holy Father acknowledged, words cannot convey the suffering the victims have endured, or remedy the sense of betrayal they still feel. A sincere apology is helpful– even necessary– but it cannot provide the necessary emotional closure.

    The time for words has passed; now action is necessary. And the only action that could begin to restore confidence in the American hierarchy is something the Pope was not likely to do in the context of a pastoral visit: Asking for bishops’ resignations.

    In his talk to the US hierarchy, when he confessed that the scandal had been “sometimes very badly handled,” Pope Benedict wasn’t telling us anything that we didn’t already know. Yes, certainly; it was handled abysmally. But now let’s go one step further: What were the mistakes, and who made them? More to the point, can we continue to rely on the bishops who were willing to sacrifice the welfare of children and the integrity of the faith? To ask the questions is to recognize the answers.

    2. Pro-choice politicians

    Pope Benedict has made it clear that Catholic politicians who support legal abortion should not receive Communion, since their public posture is grossly at odds with Catholic moral teaching, and their reception of the Eucharist would constitute a scandal.

    Everyone knew the Pope’s thought on this issue. But everyone also knew that prominent Catholic politicians like Senator John Kerry and Speaker Nancy Pelosi– both ardent proponents of legal abortion– would receive Communion at the papal Mass in Nationals Park today. Everyone knew, because the politicians announced their intentions in advance.

    This is no small matter, because these politicians were not only creating scandal but also endangering their own souls. So how did the US hierarchy react? Were their warnings issued? Admonitions to avoid grave sin and scandal? I saw none. Only this quote from Sister Mary Ann Walsh, an official voice of the US bishops’ conference: “People go to church and people go to Communion if they feel in their heart they are prepared to receive Communion.”

    Judie Brown, the valiant head of the American Life League, begged the US bishops “to be extraordinarily vigilant in defending the Eucharist” during the papal visit. But her efforts could not compete with the assurances offered by the official mouthpiece of the US hierarchy, who was placidly assuring reporters that everything would be all right “if they feel in their heart they are prepared to receive Communion.” Not a word about objective moral standards, the proper formation of conscience, the duty to avoid scandal, or– most important of all– the salvation of souls.

    3. Catholic colleges and universities

    As I write, the Pope is on his way back to the campus of Catholic University, to address the heads of Catholic institutions of higher learning. The Holy Father– himself a scholar of prodigious accomplishment– will be facing a very nervous audience.

    With a few praiseworthy exceptions, the Catholic universities of America have shrugged off attempts to conserve their distinctively Catholic identity and to ensure that students receive an accurate understanding of Catholic doctrine. The powerful Jesuit universities in particular are hotbeds of theological dissent, contemptuous of the Catholic tradition that the Pontiff represents.

    It is unlikely that the Pope will confront the Catholic university chieftains directly; that is not his style. Yet if he does not make his case with crystalline clarity, we can be sure that the public-relations machinery at these schools will shift into overdrive, churning out claims that the Pope has actually endorsed their flight from Catholic orthodoxy. Every word the Pope utters in praise of the Catholic schools will be repeated incessantly; every subtle criticism will be buried beneath a mound of exculpatory prose.

    Speaking to the New York Times, Father Tom Reese–the former editor of America magazine, and a leading champion of the Jesuit approach–gave a remarkably candid appraisal of the audience Pope Benedict will face at Catholic University. He explained that if the Pope speaks in general terms, “about the importance of stressing Catholic identity, all the presidents will stand up and cheer, but if he says that we need to enforce this legislation about mandatums there will be a problem. It’s pretty much ignored in the United States today.”

    Exactly. This speech may be the greatest challenge facing Pope Benedict on his American sojourn.

  69. Tom writes the following: (My comments are in the parenthesis)

    If today’s mass would have been a Novus Ordo in Latin, do you think there would have been the same musical circus?” (If the music was as horrendus as today, absolutely in my opinion)

    The watered-down ecumenically-flavored prayers, such as EP II, would have remained in place. Correct? (At least get the prayer right, he used EP III, I have analyzed the English text here: http://truthbloggedhere.blogspot.com/2008/03/ep-iii.html

    Communion in the hand would have transpired today had the Papal Mass been offered in Latin. Correct? (Communion in the Hand is not apart of the Mass, bur rather granted by indult. JPII when coming to offer Mass removed the indult for his Masses, that could have easily been removed, it’s not in Benedict’s nature to do so, very much a gentleman)

    The Novus Ordo can be offered in Latin, vs. populum, with altar girls and EMs. Correct? (again, same, granted by indult, not apart of the actual Rubrics. The actual rubrics assume versus altar, or ad orientem. Even in the US version of the GIRM it assumes Ad Orientem. Altar girl are also granted by indult. JP II, allowed altar girls on the condition that if there weren’t enough altar boys. This has been abused by most Churches, this as well could easily be removed. This got in for the same reason Communion in the Hand got in, the disobedience was so widesprad that it was better for sake of things to allow it for the time being. )

    The above practices are linked to the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct? (Yes, but incorrectly)

    That said, the Novus Ordo Papal Mass offered today was in accord with the liturgical reform. Correct? No, becuase Chant wasn’t given the pride of place it deserves. The Mass was about us, instead of about God)

    Today’s Tower of Babel Mass (regarding languages) is part of the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct? ( No, Latin is to be retained, as a matter of fact, in places where more than one language was spoken, Latin was to be retained)

    Today’s Papal Mass was a valid Novus Ordo Mass. Correct? (Yes)

    Today’s Papal Mass was offered with solemnity. Correct? (The Music canceled the solemnity out)

    I thought that the problem with the Novus Ordo isn’t the Novus Ordo itself…the problems simply revolve around liturgical abuses and proper disposition of the priest. (You’re right, it is the people and the “Liturgy committees” that are the problem)

    But the Pope offered today a liturgical abuse-free Novus Ordo Mass with proper disposition. Correct? (Abuse free from the Pope yes, from the Choir, no…I’m sure they knew the names of the songs, but did not know what they sounded like)

    The logic that you’re using Tom is the same as those who attack the Church because of the sex scandal. One priest is bad, therefore it must be the Church, not the person. Of couse this is incorrect!

    No one here is going to deny that the NO is flawed, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out, but we do need to be careful when and when not to place blame on the NO. The weak EP’s absolutely, the music, not so much.

  70. Tom writes the following: (My comments are in the parenthesis)

    If today’s mass would have been a Novus Ordo in Latin, do you think there would have been the same musical circus?” (If the music was as horrendus as today, absolutely in my opinion)

    The watered-down ecumenically-flavored prayers, such as EP II, would have remained in place. Correct? (At least get the prayer right, he used EP III, I have analyzed the English text here: http://truthbloggedhere.blogspot.com/2008/03/ep-iii.html

    Communion in the hand would have transpired today had the Papal Mass been offered in Latin. Correct? (Communion in the Hand is not apart of the Mass, bur rather granted by indult. JPII when coming to offer Mass removed the indult for his Masses, that could have easily been removed, it\’s not in Benedict\’s nature to do so, very much a gentleman)

    The Novus Ordo can be offered in Latin, vs. populum, with altar girls and EMs. Correct? (again, same, granted by indult, not apart of the actual Rubrics. The actual rubrics assume versus altar, or ad orientem. Even in the US version of the GIRM it assumes Ad Orientem. Altar girl are also granted by indult. JP II, allowed altar girls on the condition that if there weren\’t enough altar boys. This has been abused by most Churches, this as well could easily be removed. This got in for the same reason Communion in the Hand got in, the disobedience was so widesprad that it was better for sake of things to allow it for the time being. )

    The above practices are linked to the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct? (Yes, but incorrectly)

    That said, the Novus Ordo Papal Mass offered today was in accord with the liturgical reform. Correct? No, becuase Chant wasn\’t given the pride of place it deserves. The Mass was about us, instead of about God)

    Today’s Tower of Babel Mass (regarding languages) is part of the Novus Ordo liturgical “reform.” Correct? ( No, Latin is to be retained, as a matter of fact, in places where more than one language was spoken, Latin was to be retained)

    Today’s Papal Mass was a valid Novus Ordo Mass. Correct? (Yes)

    Today’s Papal Mass was offered with solemnity. Correct? (The Music canceled the solemnity out)

    I thought that the problem with the Novus Ordo isn’t the Novus Ordo itself…the problems simply revolve around liturgical abuses and proper disposition of the priest. (You\’re right, it is the people and the \”Liturgy committees\” that are the problem)

    But the Pope offered today a liturgical abuse-free Novus Ordo Mass with proper disposition. Correct? (Abuse free from the Pope yes, from the Choir, no…I\’m sure they knew the names of the songs, but did not know what they sounded like)

    (The logic that you\’re using Tom is the same as those who attack the Church because of the sex scandal. One priest is bad, therefore it must be the Church, not the person. Of couse this is incorrect!

    No one here is going to deny that the NO is flawed, it doesn\’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out, but we do need to be careful when and when not to place blame on the NO. The weak EP\’s absolutely, the music, not so much. )

  71. B. says:

    It is time to stop pretending.
    The Mass yesterday was celebrated exactly as the Novus Ordo was intended to be celebrated. “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy” by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini and “A Challenging Reform” by Archbishop Piero Marini give ample evidence to that.

    There were no liturgical abuses. Everything was approved beforehand by the pope via his Master of Ceremonies.

    Even the constraint given by Joe of St. Thérèse in his otherwise fitting analysis does not hold water. “Giving pride of place” to chant is a quotation from Sacrosanctum Concilium, and that has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo. Pope Paul VI. said about his introduction of the Novus Ordo: “We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.”

    Pious persons are disturbed by the way the mass was celebrated yesterday? Yes, that was the intention. Pope Paul VI. said when introducing the new Mass: “We shall notice that pious persons are disturbed most, because they have their own respectable way of hearing Mass, and they will feel shaken out of their usual thoughts and obliged to follow those of others. Even priests may feel some annoyance in this respect.”

    So, the architect of the New Mass says yesterdays mass was celebrated as the Novus Ordo was intended to be celebrated. His secretary says it was celebrated as intended. And even the pope who introduced the New Mass says it was celebrated as it was intended

    It is time to stop living in denial.
    The emperor has no clothes.
    The Novus Ordo is a disaster

  72. john hendricks says:

    I was never so underwhelmed from
    1)the Holy Father “facing” the people
    2)the NT reading in Spanish
    3)the unsingable attempt to mix the real Gloria with the ICEL. If they simply would have continued, tens of thousands would have chimed in. But no!! ICEL must have the last word.
    4)the psalm!? my ears hurt!!!
    5)the peacock parade at the petitions of the faithful (I am getting fed up with “Look AT ME masses”
    6)worst of all we had 95% hand Communion and the Holy Father was obviously ok with that (“like passing out cookies” as a bishop in Kazakhstan would say), and with the fact that 95% performed no act of reverence whatsoever was also held up for the world and my children to see.

    Who planned all this??

  73. john says:

    I was underwhelmed by
    1)Holy Father “facing” the people
    2)Spanish NT readings
    3)the “music” for the psalm. My ears are still hurting!
    4)the groovy Communion music
    5)Haugen
    6)peacock parade @ the prayers of the faithful
    7)most importantly the utter lack of reverence on part of 95% of the Communion recipients i.e. no bow, or genuflection, and 95% of the time right in the hand(like passing out cookies).
    Who planned this mess?
    8)(the attempt to blend the Gloria with the ICEL version was a complete flop)

  74. Gloria says:

    The whole thing brought me to tears. It’s too bad they couldn’t have asked the Gregorian schola from St. Stephen the First Martyr Parish (FSSP) in Sacramento, CA. They chant the liturgy perfectly and devoutly every Sunday and Holy Day. Of course it isn’t the Novus Ordo. The mixed choir and children’s choristers (ages 8-14) would have sung wonderful polyphonic, classic music to enhance the presentation before the world. I,too was embarrassed, mortified, angry, and whatever other adjective applies.

  75. boredoftheworld says:

    Let’s try this then:

    In its “pure” form the new form of the Roman Rite is a streamlined version of the old form of the Roman Rite, stripped of “needless” repetitions and “anachronistic accretions”. This is after all one of the things the Roman Rite has been known for throughout history, it’s why Mass takes half an hour and Divine Liturgy takes till Tuesday (not that this is a bad thing, it’s just not a western thing).

    The problem is, except at 7am, nobody WANTS the streamlined, “pure” version. One the one hand we have people who want to embellish the ritual with elements of the older form (and we call this the hermeneutic of continuity or “ignoring the Spirit of Vatican II”) and on the other we have people who want to embellish it with what they believe is “meaningful to the people” (and we call this inculturation or the hermeneutic of rupture).

    The new ritual is perfect for “inculturation” though. By way of example, in the old form it really doesn’t matter to me WHAT language is being spoken on the altar because I can’t hear 90% of it, it could be in Esperanto or Cockney rhyming slang, but in the new it is of critical importance for the very reason that what is being said on the altar is explicitly said for me to hear and the impression is blatantly given that if I’m not actively listening AND comprehending, then the whole thing is a failure. So the language of the new form must be relevant to me, where I am, not where I’m going to be, and not just for me but for everyone else who might hear it.

    A great deal of what we rail against in the new form flows naturally… organically even, from the fundamental requirement that the people HEAR. So WHAT we hear becomes of supreme importance. I ask you, what is the point of HEARING words I do not understand, am I supposed to be edified by the rhythmic patterns of the language?

    It is there, in the core of the differences between the two forms, that we have the recipe for what we watched in Washington. The new rite (to be true to itself) MUST be horizontal in focus because it is vocalized horizontally. I am reminded of prayers heard in my protestant childhood, offered by adults in my family, that would turn into sermons. Even as a child I couldn’t understand why God needed to be told about the great work the missionaries were doing in South America just so we could eat lunch.

  76. David2 says:

    This Mass had everything except drag queens and “sisters of perpetual indulgence” singing show tunes and “It’s Raining Men”. There might as well have been, with Kerry and Pelosi profaning the Eucharist, widespread communion in the hand, food vendors selling food during communion, etc etc. The music was, in general, the liturgical equivalent of a handful of dog excrement thrown in the Holy Father’s face – as appropriate to the Holy Sacrifice as the sound of live cats being disembowelled or goats being sacrificed in the aisles.

    On the bright side, no EMHCs or chicks with pyx. We could be greatful for small mercies, I suppose.

    It’s all so dispiriting. If the Holy Father wanted to, he could have used this to make a liturgical statement that would reverberate around the world. In a way, he has. Unfortunately the content of that statement is “feel free to ignore Peter with impunity”.

    I dread World Youth Day.

  77. David says:

    Fr. Z, thank you for your response.

    You are correct in saying that the issue here was primarily about the music, but I strongly disagree that the novus ordo Mass “requires by its internal logic, the great treasury our Church has produced.” I don’t understand how it has. In the great treasury of our Church Gregorian Chant takes first place. How does the novus ordo Mass lend first place to Gregorian Chant in a better way than the TLM? Removing Gregorian Chant from consideration for a moment, and looking at a wider view of this treasury, how does the novus ordo lend any place to the great Mass settings of Palistrina, Mozart, or Bach? When was the last time you heard Sarrum Chant at a novus ordo?

    Now look at the treasury that the novus ordo Mass actually gives place: the St. Louis Jesuits? Marty Heugan (sp?)? The novus ordo requires by its internal logic, because it is so far removed from the Mass of the Ages, a clear break from the sacred music that has always made up the rich treasury our Church has produced, which was inspired by and cultivated for the Traditional Latin Mass. The novus ordo Mass provided flexibility only in providing more opportunities to sing hymns and by giving the people in the pew the ability to slaughter those hymns.

    There was an ideology at work in most, if not all, of the “music” selected and performed at this papal Mass. It is difficult to insert an ideology into the Gregorian Chant being selected for the introit for a Traditional Latin Mass. A message was sent, and as Tom points out, it was sent via the “proper channels” of the novus ordo Mass.

    Regards,

    David

  78. David says:

    Fr. Z, thank you for your response.

    You are correct in saying that the issue here was primarily about the music, but I strongly disagree that the novus ordo Mass “requires by its internal logic, the great treasury our Church has produced.” I don’t understand how it has. In the great treasury of our Church Gregorian Chant takes first place. How does the novus ordo Mass lend first place to Gregorian Chant in a better way than the TLM? Removing Gregorian Chant from consideration for a moment, and looking at a wider view of this treasury, how does the novus ordo lend any place to the great Mass settings of Palistrina, Mozart, or Bach? When was the last time you heard Sarrum Chant at a novus ordo?

    Now look at the treasury that the novus ordo Mass actually gives place: the St. Louis Jesuits? Marty Heugan (sp?)? The novus ordo requires by its internal logic, because it is so far removed from the Mass of the Ages, a clear break from the sacred music that has always made up the rich treasury our Church has produced, which was inspired by and cultivated for the Traditional Latin Mass. The novus ordo Mass provided flexibility only in providing more opportunities to sing hymns and by giving the people in the pew the ability to slaughter those hymns.

    There was an ideology at work in most, if not all, of the “music” selected and performed at this papal Mass. It is difficult to insert an ideology into the Gregorian Chant being selected for the introit for a Traditional Latin Mass. A message was sent, and as Tom points out, it was sent via the “proper channels” of the novus ordo Mass.

    Regards,

    David

  79. john says:

    http://www.kreuz.net/article.7037.html

    check out the photo of Senator Kerry.

    It says 1000 words

  80. madirish says:

    Something tells me that this Mass is a defining moment, and possibly the end of an era. [A last gasp?]

    Similar to the babel of voices the exorcist experiences at the point when the demon is finally driven out? That’s what I was reminded of when I heard the screeching.

  81. Renee says:

    I know I am posting this a bit late but did anyone else read that the concession stands were opened up while communion was going on and that people were getting in line to purchase food. If this is correct, I am complete flabbergasted at such a lack of respect. Was anyone there that saw this?

  82. Vox says:

    Madirish,

    One can only hope!

  83. Chironomo says:

    Devin Said:

    “I heard from someone who was there that His Holiness actually rolled his eyes when one of the songs(something with a weird flute) started. Dunno how reliable he is, but it’s interesting…”

    I’ve reviewed the tape several times, and he rolls his eyes, looks around bewildered, and makes numerous other facial gestures that speak loudly throughout the “Mass”. The one you are referring to was the Native American flute and guitar selection during communion, the beginning of which sounded like a New-Age “Indian Flutes” CD or something like that..the Holy Father was shown in close-up looking skyward with a bewildered frown and something like a wincing expression…

  84. Collette says:

    I don’t understand.
    Pope Benedict XVI said in Sacramentum Caritatis: “None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung.”
    Why didn’t Pope Benedict try to reclaim some sense of the sacred and say the canon in Latin? Is he a pawn in the hands of the American heirarchy?

  85. TNCath says:

    I’m wondering if, in light of all this discussion about how poorly done the Mass was executed in Washington, there might be some last minute changes in New York?

  86. TNCath says:

    CORRECTION: “how poorly the Mass was executed in Washington”

  87. Coletta says:

    “How ironic that our Protestant President seemed more humble and respectful of the Holy Father than the Archdiocese of Washington.”

    Well said, Woody.

    As a veteran I am pleased that our President was very happy to please the Holy Father in any way possible.God bless America.

  88. Kevin says:

    I attended the Mass yesterday, and given the setting, I expected no sense of the
    sacred. And there was none. With thousands of people stopping for breakfast
    at the concession stands, the horrible music selections, and the troubling propensity
    of many church musicians to “perform” rather than minister, any chance of experiencing
    holy and sacred moments were crushed. Communion distribution with the accompanying
    cacophony of percussion, clapping, and obscure instruments was a disaster. How this
    display enhanced the Real Presence is beyond me. A stadium is no place for Mass.
    Many attendees behaved as if it was a ball game, clapping and cheering. By the way, the Pope and Bishops should be servants of their flock, not kingly elites. How sad the Pope is treated like a rock star. How about a bit of humility and dignity for the office?

  89. Chironomo says:

    Collette;

    It has ben pointed out in numerous posts that the Mass yesterday contradicted not only everything that the Holy father has written about liturgy in general, but also everything that has been written and decided by the Holy See and the Bishops councils regarding these large-scale outdoor Masses. As recently as last Novemebr, the USCCB issued music guidelines which specifically laid out guidelines for such Masses, and the guidelines were the same as what you quotes from SC… that the Mass should be said in Latin except for the reading s and homily, and that Gregorian Chant should predominate. Apparently Bishop Wuehrle forgot that he signed that one…

  90. RBrown says:

    I have to wonder whether liturgy like yesterday is more an example of the Tower of Babel than the New Pentecost.

  91. David O'Rourke says:

    Perhaps what was worst of all was to hear the CNN commentators (who can be forgiven because they don’t know better) referring to this as representing the solemnity Catholic Liturgy.

    And who was that idiot Jesuit who referred to the Pope’s restoration of older vestments and the white Easter Mozzetta as the Pope emphasising the copntinuity of tradition (fair enough)AND EXPRESSING HIS PERSONALITY. A-ARGH-H-H-H!!!!

  92. Rick says:

    I was at the stadium yesterday for the Mass. To tell you the truth nothing in this Mass supprised me per say. I go the Saint Camillus in Silver Spring MD “a multicultural parish” and this is the horror I am subjected to every single chrismass, easter and so forth. When I was told that the choir and its leader would be the master thinker behind the papal “multicultural” mass I knew what it was going to be. Fr Z you were complaining about not being able to follow the mass until at least the Eucharistic prayer. Well at least that is one thing they couldn’t influence. At Saint Camillus the Eucharistic Prayer switches from English to Spanish to French talk about not being able to follow some part like the consecration are repeated in the 3 languages. Anyway I am very very very glad that it happened this way, may be now our bishop will be force to change the atrocity good catholics are subjected too in the name of multiculturalism. Oh Yeah!!! I forgot to mention the prayer of the faithful, did you notice that we did not even understand what we (the faithful) were praying for?

  93. Collette: The reason the EP was in English, plain and simple, the majority of the Bishops don’t know their Latin well enough…the reason for all was used at the consecration: say the black, do the red.

    The disaster oould have been far worse, let’s not give up hope, let’s get involved (of course you’re going to need more than one person who thinks like you), save the Liturgy, save the World

  94. Rick: Fr Z you were complaining about not being able to follow the mass until at least the Eucharistic prayer.

    No. I could follow it. I didn’t like what I followed and I thought it was terribly disjointed. But knowing what happens at Mass fairly well, allowed me to follow it.

  95. Matthew says:

    I thought that the papal Mass at Nationals Stadium was the coolest and beautiful event, religious or not, that I have ever seen in my life, all 17 years of it. I don’t understand how people could say that the multicultural Mass was not traditional. Sure, it wasn’t the usual
    Mass you se at the Vatican, but it combined elements of Masses all over the world. The prayers of the faithful represented 6 different groups of people who are strongly Catholic; who are we to deny them representation? And the 5 songs after the Eucharist were beautiful. I speak English, obviously, more than any other language, but I want to learn other languages…did you know Benedict himself speaks 10 languages? Wow! Yeah, it is true, I couldn’t understand the foreign languages, but neither could I understand the Latin. Sometimes, I can’t even understand the English that is said at my own church. And while most of us couldn’t understand what was being said i the prayers and songs, someone could, and that someone usually cannot understand what is said at the normal English Mass. As the Church grows in universality, this element of multiculturalism will become a norm. And I think God will be pleased that people are combining their own cultures with the traditions of his Church. I think anyone who did not like the Nationals Mass is a white supremist. Why is it ok that Placido Domingo can sing in Italian, which I can’t understand, but its not ok when Swahili, Spanish, Korean… are used to sing or pray? The world is making progress in promoting all cultures, not just the European ones. And it makes me so happy to be Catholic when I see 1 billion others around the world practicing the same beliefs that have been practiced for 2000 years. It is a beautiful thing that the Catholic Church can bridge distance, time, and language. I hope and expect to see other Masses like the multicultural one at Nationals Stadium. It honored God, who speaks neither English nor Latin, but the language of love. It was an honor to Pope Benedict and all of the Catholics in America, hailing from dozens of different ethnicities! Alleluia.