Holy Smoke: Pope wants the Latin Mass everywhere

Damien Thompson at Holy Smoke on the Daily Telegraph, snarks some English bishops … again.

This seems to be a follow up on what we posted here, namely that Card. Castillon Hoyos is saying that the Holy Father wants the older form of Mass to be in parishes and that priests shouldn’t wait for requests (and therefore don’t have to wait for requests).

Pope wants the Latin Mass everywhere
Posted by Damian Thompson on 05 May 2008  at 17:54
Tags: Catholicism, Pope Benedict, Latin Mass

Bishops Hollis and Conry, if you have ever thought of jumping ship to the C of E, now might a good time to do so. According to a senior Vatican cardinal, Pope Benedict wants the old Latin Mass celebrated in parishes even where the people have not asked for it.


English bishops take note: this is what the Mass looks like

Well! That will certainly drive a horse and cart through the English bishops’ shameful attempts to ignore Summorum Pontificum, last year’s papal letter removing their power to block the 1962 (Tridentine) Missal.

According to the Catholic News Agency, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, head of the Pontifical Commission
Ecclesia Dei, let the cat out of the bag in an interview for a DVD instructing priests on how to celebrate the Extraordinary Form.

Here’s the money quote: “The cardinal said that parishes and priests should make available the Extraordinary Form so that ‘everyone may have access to this treasure of the ancient liturgy of the Church’. He also stressed that, ‘even if it is not specifically asked for, or requested’ it should be provided.  Interestingly, he added that the Pope wants this Mass to become normal in parishes, so that ‘young communities can also become familiar with this rite’.”

(Incidentally, I can think of one parish that NEVER celebrates the old Mass on Sundays. It’s called Westminster Cathedral. Perhaps Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos might raise the subject when he visits it in June.)

The idea of young people discovering the ancient Mass, said entirely in Latin with zero opportunity for congregational showing-off, will truly horrify with-it bishops and their Sandalista worship leaders. And what will Bobbie (“Cry me a river”) Mickens have to say?

I do wonder, however, whether the Pope realises that if he wants the classical Mass celebrated widely in this country he will have to make one extra provision. New bishops. Lots of them. And fast. [His Hermeneuticalness for Westminster!]

Posted by Damian Thompson on 05 May 2008 at 17:54

 

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31 Responses to Holy Smoke: Pope wants the Latin Mass everywhere

  1. Le Renard says:

    Holy Smoke: Pope wants the Latin Mass everywhere

    Not if the Liberal factions of the Church have anything to do about it!
    They’ll render this prerogative null and void throughout all the U.S. as they have in our diocese!

  2. Father Bartoloma says:

    “sandalista” – love it!

  3. Peter says:

    Great picture. Credo, Gloria, preface? Or something else altogether?

  4. EDG says:

    It’s null and void in my diocese, too, so I’m watching this latest move with great interest. There was a lot of comment here earlier about the problems with the “request from a stable group,” and while we fussed about possibly retranslating or rephrasing it – the Pope simply went and got rid of it! Problem solved. It’s going to be much, much harder for these rebellious bishops now.

  5. Brian Sudlow says:

    So let the Pope celebrate the Extraordinary form himself in his own basilica for all to see. I mean, if this is what he wants in the parishes …

  6. Brian: That would indeed resolve a lot of problems.

  7. Le Renard says:

    It’s null and void in my diocese, too, so I’m watching this latest move with great interest.

    One thing I know for sure is that if it’s not “PROTESTANT” Catholicism, it is NOT acceptable.

    The American catholic Mass MUST comprise of Rock ‘n’ Roll Worship Music, feet-stomping, drum-beating, liturgical dances, and what not in order to be considered valid in these here United States!

    The message here folks: “ROME GO HOME!”

  8. Robert L says:

    What Brian said above goes right to the point. To add to that, is the diocese of Rome going to immediately/soon
    going to have the ancient Mass said in All of it’s parishes? Is the Vatican going to keep up the mantra of
    do as I say, not as I do. There was a prime oppurtunity to have said the old Mass at St Patrick’s two weekds ago,
    but that never happened. If Card Stickler got the crowd back in 96′, I am sure the turnout here would have
    exceeded it! Benedict XVI just had to instruct the sacristan to borrow the Missal, altar cards, etc from
    St Agnes or other indult/motu site, and they would be good to go. Even a low Mass would not take much preparation.
    Perhaps they would have been able to do more. Human respect does not belong in the priesthood, among other
    things. Faithfulness to scripture, tradition and every doctrine of the faith does.

  9. Tom says:

    The golden opportunity is at hand for the Holy Father to offer the TLM publicly, regularly…and to lead by concrete example.

    The Holy Father has insisted, for example, that interest in the TLM exists among young Catholics. We read and hear that Catholics supposedly thirst for Traditional.

    We are asked to believe that the people, so to speak, are on the Holy Father’s side regarding the TLM and Holy Tradition.

    Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI should seize the opportunity to promote the Traditional Latin Mass to the hilt to lift the (Latin) Church from Her decades-old crisis of faith and liturgical collapse.

    Perhaps a Catholic VIP-type could organize a petition signed by millions of Catholics designed to ask the Holy Father to offer the TLM publicly and regularly.

    Pax.

  10. Richard T says:

    It seems that sections of the English clergy have always been a problem.

    I spotted this statement about Cardinal Wiseman (the first Archbishop of Westminster, 1850 – 1865):

    “Wiseman found himself steadily opposed by a minority among his own clergy, who disliked his ultramontane ideas and his “Romanizing and innovating zeal,” especially in regard to the introduction of sacred images into the churches and the use of devotions to the Blessed Virgin and the Blessed Sacrament”

    (OK, it’s from Wiki, so not very authorititive; it would be interesting if anyone could provide a better source along the same lines)

  11. Yes, I am curious about where in the Roman Mass that picture
    was taken. We Dominicans do extend our arms after the
    consectration, but not that far.

    But, perhaps he is just enthusiastic about the signs of the
    times. Good for him.

  12. Peter Karl T. Perkins says:

    Hooray for Darío Cardinal Castrilló Hoyos! His interpretation of Section 1 of Article 1 of S.P. is exactly what I have been insisting on from the outset. That Section is not restrictive. While it calls upon priests accept the petitions of faithful for the old Mass, nowhere does it say that such requests must be received before a parish priest may proceed. A parish priest, given Article 1 of S.P., the indult he has from his bishop to schedule parochial Masses, and Canon 837.1, can proceed entirely on his own authority. These words of the Cardinal suggest, I think, what might be coming in the long-awaited clarification of S.P. from the P.C.E.D. Let’s pray so!

    Given all the resistance to S.P. among some bishops, it might be opportune now for the Pope to rule that, in addition to the provisions of S.P., every diocese must have an every-Sunday Mass in the Traditional Roman Rite if thirty or more faithful petition for this.

    P.K.T.P.

  13. Jacques says:

    While the French bishops have lied the faithfuls in claiming for years that the Tridentine Mass was forbidden since VatII, what Benedict XVI said was wrong, it is now difficult if not impossible to find only a few people to be interested in it. Our holy parish priest told me that he was training to say this mass in the event that 5 people at least would ask him. Until now this number could not be met.
    I am extremely pessimistic.

  14. mpm says:

    Fr. Thomson,

    Perhaps the “Sursum corda”?

  15. Argent says:

    Yes, I am curious about where in the Roman Mass that picture
    was taken.

    Fr. Thompson, Te igitur perhaps?

  16. Tom says:

    The picture may be from the Ambrosian rite.

  17. Le Renard says:

    Pope wants the Latin Mass everywhere
    Posted by Damian Thompson on 05 May 2008 at 17:54
    Tags: Catholicism, Pope Benedict, Latin Mass

    Bishops Hollis and Conry, if you have ever thought of jumping ship to the C of E, now might a good time to do so. According to a senior Vatican cardinal, Pope Benedict wants the old Latin Mass celebrated in parishes even where the people have not asked for it.

    Fr. Augustine Thompson O.P. writes: Yes, I am curious about where in the Roman Mass that picture
    was taken. We Dominicans do extend our arms after the
    consectration, but not that far.

    But, perhaps he is just enthusiastic about the signs of the
    times. Good for him.

    I take it they’re not related.

  18. Rob says:

    Perhaps this is a reaction to what the Holy Father saw in Washington.

  19. Andy says:

    I pray for that to be true, this is very needed everywhere, everyone must know bishop has no power to stop TLM – in fact they should be charged with encouraging it. I’ve heard from my friends in Silesia, Poland that local bishop there, Zimon, has recently explicitly prohibited TLM from being offered in a church in Piekary, even though it was already advertised to the faithful. Bishop Zimon reprimanded the pastor of the church and punished the priest who was to celebrate the TLM by moving him to another parish imediatelly. Apparently he believes Summorum Pontificum doesn’t apply to him or his diocese. Outcry from the faithful followed – but this case is very typical I’m afraid. We need indeed new bishops – or a reneval of those already in place. It can happen if we pray hard enough.

  20. I would not be suprised if on Pentecost the Holy Father celebrates the Mass according to the 62 Missal

  21. Michael says:

    Jacques,

    Do not be discouraged. If over 400 could be found for a late Sunday afternoon Mass in the middle of the “bible-belt” here in the US, I am confident that much more will be found in France.

  22. Tom says:

    The Holy Father desires that the TLM be offered everywhere?

    What happened to the Pope’s incredibly slooooow brick-by-brick Marshall Plan?

    If Mr. Thompson’s report is correct, then we’re talking about the Holy Father having instituted a fast-moving liturgical revolution.

    Anyway…fewer than 12 months ago, the Holy Father declared the following:

    “The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often.”

    I doubt that since he uttered the above words that the situation described by His Holiness has changed appreciably.

    Unless the Pope promotes the TLM to the hilt, which includes his offering the TLM regularly, I doubt that the TLM will be offered in parishes everywhere.

    Pax.

  23. Tom says:

    “Not if the Liberal factions of the Church have anything to do about it!
    They’ll render this prerogative null and void throughout all the U.S. as they have in our diocese!”

    I have found that reluctance to promote the TLM is also found among conservative factions.

    Priests throughout my diocese fall into the “conservative” category…yet Summorum Pontificum is a dead letter here.

    The conservative priests at my parish are not interested in promoting the TLM.

    Pax.

  24. Justin says:

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that Tom. For me the TLM and Summorum Pontificum is merely a means to an end, not the end point itself. The main purpose of more celebrations of the TLM is cross-pollination which leads to more reverent and worthy celebrations of the Novus Ordo and maybe even the reform of the Novus Ordo missal.

    That is I believe the attitude taken by the vast majority of the more conservative priests.

  25. Carolina Geo says:

    What we have been seeing all along are suggestions. What we need are clear directives, with clear repercussions if those directives are not followed, and then some repercussive actions when those directives are not followed. Not that I necessarily want to see this, but if a few dissenting bishops were hung out to dry, I think the others would fall into line rather quickly. Right now bishops are dissenting because they know they can.

    Another thing that needs clarification is the frequency with which the traditional Mass is to be offered, and on what day. It is not overly helpful to the faithful who want to exclusively adhere to the traditional rite if the only available parish that offers the traditional Mass does so on Wednesday mornings or once a month on Sundays. That’s like throwing a rubber bone to a starving dog. There ought to be a directive to have the Mass offered not just at every parish, but at every parish on every Sunday and every holy day of obligation throughout the year. Otherwise some priests will offer the traditional Mass once a year on a Friday evening (probably by a visiting priest) and say, “Look, we’ve fulfilled the Holy Father’s wishes by offering the traditional Mass at our parish.”

  26. sacerdosinaeternum says:

    The picture is of Mgr Ignacio Barreiro saying the Extraordinary Form of Mass in Rome. He always extends his arms this way for the Holy Sacrifice. I’m not sure why, though.

  27. Marc says:

    How many of you all out there in the trenches are getting people properly informed about the TLM. What kind of things are you all doing?

    We are up here preparing a good bunch of solid lay people who are well versed in the TLM and are preparing to seek out those people in each parish in the Archdiocese to plant seeds and try to properly implement the Pope’s motu proprio.

    One thing to think about is how many of us are consistently fasting and offering sufferings and prayers ect.. for the resergence of the TLM?

    Brick by brick!!

  28. nick says:

    People keep saying SP is a dead letter, but I think you are giving up too soon. The main goal of SP was to take the chains off of the priests who WANTED to celebrate the TLM.

    In many places SP is seen as a “dead letter” by the simple (but sad) fact that many priests dont know how to celebrate it (or even speak sufficient Latin).

    A good percentage of the up and coming generation of Priests wants to celebrate the TLM.

    I speak as one who feels the pain of many of you and also do not as of yet have access to a local TLM to take refuge in. We would all love an overnight reformation, but that is too unrealistic.

    I’m starting to think there is a good chance we will see the Pope celebrate the TLM on a major holiday.

  29. David O'Rourke says:

    Quote: “I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that Tom. For me the TLM and Summorum Pontificum is merely a means to an end, not the end point itself. The main purpose of more celebrations of the TLM is cross-pollination which leads to more reverent and worthy celebrations of the Novus Ordo and maybe even the reform of the Novus Ordo missal”.

    So says Justin but the fact is that one of the main reasons that the Novus Ordo is not celebrated as reverently as the Traditional Rite is that the detailed rubrics which mandate the priest’s every movement in the Traditional Mass are lacking in the Novus Ordo. In other words, the defect lies within the Novus Orfdo itself which, unlike the Traditional Rite was not inherited from tradition but was fabricated by a commission.

    And by this very fact as well as by it’s rejection of what the reformers might have considered as “rubricism” (quite unpopular in the 1960’s and 70’s) the Missal of Paul VI left the door open to countless additional fabrications by countless celebrants.

    Even a correctly offered Novus Ordo Mass is rather formless and empty. The few rubrics that exist are more devoted to effecting and enhancing community rather than celebrating with reverence and devotion. Devout Reform of the Refom priests will often inject various improvements, sometimes borrowed from the TLM (a practice constantly forbidden by Rome in the early years of the Novus Ordo. — CF the responses to Queries sent to Rome by bishops regarding silences or lack of clarity in the new rubrics). In so doing they may produce a much more edifying celebration but this only illustrates the problem with the Novus Ordo in that the TLM would not require such efforts and, in fact, it would forbid them. In the TLM all that is allowed the priest is to “do the red and pray the black”.

  30. Matt Q says:

    EDG wrote:

    “It’s null and void in my diocese, too, so I’m watching this latest move with great interest. There was a lot of comment here earlier about the problems with the “request from a stable group,” and while we fussed about possibly retranslating or rephrasing it – the Pope simply went and got rid of it! Problem solved. It’s going to be much, much harder for these rebellious bishops now.”

    )(

    No, it won’t be harder for those “rebellious bishops” as Rome is all talk and no walk. Until there is some mandate for the Papal Prerogative, it will be liturgical flat soda as usual.

    As far as null and void in Los Angeles, it’s actually mixed. In reality there are Tridentine Masses regularly available here but they are not said via the parish, just in parishes where a travelling priest says them. Sounds like missionary days. Well, I guess that is what it is, missionary. We have to bring True Religion back to the… “??”

    As far as an Archdiocesan parish priest saying a Tridentine Mass, many of us believe there is a behind-closed-doors directive saying in effect, “Try it and see what happens to you!”

    ==========

    Brian Sudlow wrote:

    “So let the Pope celebrate the Extraordinary form himself in his own basilica for all to see. I mean, if this is what he wants in the parishes…”

    Father Z wrote:

    “Brian: That would indeed resolve a lot of problems.”

    )(

    Yes, it would be a most dramatic statement if or when the Holy Father actually does say a Tridentine Mass. It would say he means what he says. I don’t like hearing from different people that the Pope is merely eccentric–just wants all the trappings of what is Traditional “because he can.” I counter with “because he should!”

    ==========

    Le Renard wrote:

    “It’s null and void in my diocese, too, so I’m watching this latest move with great interest.

    One thing I know for sure is that if it’s not “PROTESTANT” Catholicism, it is NOT acceptable.

    The American catholic Mass MUST comprise of Rock ‘n’ Roll Worship Music, feet-stomping, drum-beating, liturgical dances, and what not in order to be considered valid in these here United States!

    The message here folks: “ROME GO HOME!”

    )(

    In addtion to that list we must also add churches which look like places even other religions don’t have. In that even Protestant churches don’t like this silly nonsense churches are denigrated into with “re-ordering” of “worship spaces.” It just shows you the mentality, the mindset of those who think up this stuff and say it’s what V2 wanted.

    ==========

    Carolina Geo wrote:

    “What we have been seeing all along are suggestions. What we need are clear directives, with clear repercussions if those directives are not followed, and then some repercussive actions when those directives are not followed. Not that I necessarily want to see this, but if a few dissenting bishops were hung out to dry, I think the others would fall into line rather quickly. Right now bishops are dissenting because they know they can.

    Another thing that needs clarification is the frequency with which the traditional Mass is to be offered, and on what day. It is not overly helpful to the faithful who want to exclusively adhere to the traditional rite if the only available parish that offers the traditional Mass does so on Wednesday mornings or once a month on Sundays. That’s like throwing a rubber bone to a starving dog. There ought to be a directive to have the Mass offered not just at every parish, but at every parish on every Sunday and every holy day of obligation throughout the year. Otherwise some priests will offer the traditional Mass once a year on a Friday evening (probably by a visiting priest) and say, “Look, we’ve fulfilled the Holy Father’s wishes by offering the traditional Mass at our parish.”

    )(

    Well put, Carolina, but, again, unless there is a mandate, the dog is going to continue to starve. Sadly.

    ==========

    Nick wrote:

    “People keep saying SP is a dead letter, but I think you are giving up too soon. The main goal of SP was to take the chains off of the priests who WANTED to celebrate the TLM.

    In many places SP is seen as a “dead letter” by the simple (but sad) fact that many priests dont know how to celebrate it (or even speak sufficient Latin).

    A good percentage of the up-and-coming generation of Priests wants to celebrate the TLM.

    I speak as one who feels the pain of many of you and also do not as of yet have access to a local TLM to take refuge in. We would all love an overnight reformation, but that is too unrealistic.

    I’m starting to think there is a good chance we will see the Pope celebrate the TLM on a major holiday.”

    )(

    Nick, it isn’t that many are saying the Motu Proprio is a dead letter, but many bishops are conveying that idea by the mere fact they are refusing to allow the Tridentine Mass to be said in their dioceses, or at least by their priests.

    The issue is not whether a given priest can say it, but the tacit refusal even to allow a priest who can, be he in-house or visiting. Until Rome steps up to the plate and issues some sort of directive rather than ambiguous criteria, to many Summorum Pontificum will seem dead in the water.

  31. RBrown says:

    The picture is of Mgr Ignacio Barreiro saying the Extraordinary Form of Mass in Rome. He always extends his arms this way for the Holy Sacrifice. I’m not sure why, though.
    Comment by sacerdosinaeternum

    Perhaps it has something to do with once having been a UN diplomat.