Church of England bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome

We are watching the Anglican implode this week.

No surprise.

But this is rather interesting.  Damian Thompson has this to report, as I picked up from my friend Fr. Blake:

[Church of England] bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome
Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 04:30 PM GMT

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week.

Bishop Burnham, one of two "flying bishops" in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for "magnanimous gestures" that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse.

He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican’s head of ecumenism. He was accompanied on his visit by the Rt Rev Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough, the other Canterbury "flying bishop", who is expected to follow his example.

Bishop Burnham hopes that Rome will offer special arrangements whereby former Anglicans can stay worshipping in parishes under the guidance of a Catholic bishop. Most of these parishes already use the Roman liturgy, but there may be provision for Anglican prayers if churches request it.

Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches.

In his statement, Bishop Burnham explains why he is rejecting the code of practice offered to traditionalists by the General Synod last night. "How could we trust a code of practice to deliver a workable ecclesiology if every suggestion we have made for our inclusion has been turned down flat?" he asks.

"How could we trust a code of practice when those who are offering it include those who have done most to undermine and seek to revoke the code of practice in force for these last 14 years?

"What we must humbly ask for now is for magnanimous gestures from our Catholic friends, especially from the Holy Father, who well understands our longing for unity, and from the hierarchy of England and Wales. Most of all we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us."

I pray that these men, and the people who follow them, will have strength and courage to stand up to the pressure they will face now that they have made these statements.  

May they come to Rome.

They have with humilty asked for a magnanimous gesture from Pope Benedict. 

Can you think of anyone else who perhaps should be watching their good example?

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103 Responses to Church of England bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome

  1. patrick f says:

    Glorious and Magnificent. HE IS a true shepherd. Totally connected with his people. Its wonderful to see that. Now if others that are already “in the club” could act this way about orthodox interpretation of the liturgy and catechism, we would all be better off.

    What I have liked about the anglicans too, the conservative ones, is they are more apt to where the regalia, regalia that says “I am a Bishop, let me guide you”.. Sometimes you cant even tell who a bishop is unless you see their pectoral cross, and even then its a guessing game

  2. John Womack says:

    Welcome home, dear brethren! Words cannot express my joy.
    God be praised!

  3. John6:54 says:

    How big of boat do they need to cross the Tiber?

  4. Brian Walden says:

    Benedict the Magnanimous!

    I like the sound of it. May he reunite Christ’s Church.

  5. TJM says:

    Father Z, thanks for posting this wonderful news. Even more wonderful because I would assume the Anglican bishops and priests are very
    tradition minded and will give a welcome shot in the arm to English Catholicism. Regards, Tom

  6. Paul in the GNW says:

    Welcome, Welcome! I for one welcome all who come to the Church. I know that for many of you it may be a difficult journey. I will be praying for you everyday. I hope, overtime you come to love the Church. For all who are unable to ‘Pope’ I also pray for you will find solace.

    God Bless

    Paul

  7. Paul in the GNW says:

    Brian,

    I have been thinking “Benedict the Miraculous” Magnificent and Magnanimous work too, but I think I still prefer Miraculous. What about “Benedict Maximus”?

    Paul

  8. AltBanater says:

    I sometimes wonder what kind of Catholics these folks would make if they
    do decide to come over. Will they have to say something like “Gosh, were
    we ever wrong. We are soooooo sorry! We can see that now.”

    What would happen if in a fit of relative sanity the Anglicans were to go
    back to not allowing women ‘bishops.’ Would this group of people just jump
    ship back over to the other side?

  9. Steve K. says:

    I don’t think it’s called for to second guess the motives of those Anglicans seeking to come over to us. It is uncharitable, and betrays our mission. We should rejoice that our separated brethren are returning, as we are in fact interested in the salvation of their souls. The details will take care of themselves; it suffices that they sincerely desire to return to the Church.

    Anti-spam word is caritas – how appropriate!

  10. Tim says:

    Will they get rid of their deaconnesses when they come or is that something they will keep as part of their anglican heritage?

  11. Mark M says:

    Pray for lots of magnanimity. Of course individual situations need to be regularised, but we need a lot of generousity from all involved!

    There is a lot of hurt in the “Anglo-Catholic” wing, and a lot of people are aching to be in communion with the Church. Remember, they thought they were… until suddenly they find the Church of England is not going to right itself and do a U-turn.

  12. As I said at Father Phillips blog so will I say here:

    I sincerely hope the Holy Father permits the Anglo-Catholics to retain the usage of the Anglican Missal which is an excellent translation of the Traditional Latin Missal from 1955 I believe. I am of the firm opinion that if we had simply used a missal like the Anglican Missal with it’s excellent translations of the Gregorian rite, we would never have needed the Novus Ordo. As an addendum, the Anglican breviary would be an excellent addition to any Traditionalist Catholic home as it too is a highly accurate and literate translation of the 1955 Roman breviary. I have a copy and can vouch for the beautiful prose. So please, we beg thee dear Holy Father…DO NOT FOIST THE NOVUS ORDO ON THE ANGLO CATHOLICS!!!!

    Greg Hessel
    Traditionalist in Arlington Diocese

    08 July, 2008 18:28

  13. Maynardus says:

    I don’t think it serves any purpose to question the motives of these folks, for whatever reason they have finally reached a breaking-point and that is enough. I don’t recall the father asking the Prodigal Son “why did you come home, what do you want from me?” As long as they approach Rome with some humility and treated like adults, they will be able to make a mature choice whether to accept the authority of the Pope and the Church – or not. That’s good enough for me. But I do feel that if some sort of distinctive structure was to be created it might facilitate some further returns as the Anglican Communion continues to self-destruct.

  14. I would assume the Anglican bishops and priests are very tradition minded and will give a welcome shot in the arm to English Catholicism.

    Indeed. Especially if, as I’ve heard, some of these traditional Anglicans use pre-Vatican II Roman missals.

    Will they have to say something like “Gosh, were
    we ever wrong. We are soooooo sorry! We can see that now.”

    In which case there may be some question who’s been wrong and who’s been right.

  15. Paul in the GNW says:

    I don’t see why we should be any harder on these converts, however they arrive, than we are on the parishioners at the average parish. I would acknowledge that some won’t make the journey, and some who attempt it will fail, and that some who actually profess the Catholic faith will then lapse back into some form of protestantism. Really, I have seen the same thing in RCIA, and in cradle Catholics. I have a little more concern about Priests, but again, I have met plenty of Priests today that I could live without.

    JPII “BE NOT AFRAID”

    Lets make the road for these people as wide and smooth as we can. Lets let time heal the wounds. We can focus on Catechesis as we grow together.

    Obviously, none (or very few – and they aren’t saying) have seen the outlines of Benedict’s plan. It seems possible that there would be a period of Catechesis, and that there would be opportunity for those who chose another path. Also, I think Benedict is willing to let people grow faith as the journey progresses.

    It would be a real scandal to let this opportunity pass without the best Christian, charitable response we can muster.

    As a side note, I have often wondered why Cardinal Lavada at the CDF. I have come to think perhaps Benedict wanted someone he knew he could mold and shape for exactly this circumstance. Someone more ‘hardline’ might have gummed this up.

    God Bless

    Keep it Charitable and Welcoming

    Paul

  16. David says:

    Deo gratias! Welcome home!

  17. David says:

    So long as they join us because they believe Catholicism is RIGHT all is well. But if they come over because they think Anglicanism is wrong, we run the risk of people trying in the future to make the Church into their version of Anglicanism.

    I won’t presume on their faith of course.

    But I pray that Ven. Cardinal Newman intercedes for them.

  18. Timotheos says:

    Hoorah, the beginning of the end of the heretical reformation!”

  19. Praise God! This is a true movement of the Holy Spirit. The wheat and the chaff, the sheep and the goats. All are aligning according to their adherence to the teachings and faithful interpretation of the Holy Gospel.

    It is apparent now WHY Rome waited until after Lambeth to announce the decision regarding the TAC petition. I would hope that a Personal Prelature structure is in mind for them and would include all those who might fit under the pastoral prevision. Such a move could only help to secure both the trust of Anglo-Catholics who desire the retention of their authentic and unique liturgical ethos, while at the same time demonstrating to other groups (such as the SSPX) how such things could be handled well for them.

    I certainly hope Bishop Tom Wright joins in the movement. Despite his support for Rowan, he would be a marvelous addition to the fold.

    In ICXC,

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

  20. Jack Regan says:

    *So long as they join us because they believe Catholicism is RIGHT all is well. But if they come over because they think Anglicanism is wrong, we run the risk of people trying in the future to make the Church into their version of Anglicanism.*

    Well said.

    Many high Anglicans would like to see an ‘Anglican Rite’ of the Catholic Church. What do people think about that idea?

    I’m not sure myself.

  21. LCB says:

    Benedict the Unifier?

    Benedict the Merciful?

    Benedict… the Great?

  22. http://cantuar.blogspot.com/

    I take back what I said about NT Wright. How disappointing!

    We’ll just have to see how happy he is with his vote 4 or 5 years from now…

    Nevertheless, I rejoice in the many who may enter the fold!

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

  23. LCB says:

    Anglican Rite (or Use), Latin Rite, Eastern Rite, fine fine fine… what matters is unity with the Supreme Roman Pontiff.

  24. Deacon Nathan Allen says:

    It would seem to be a lot for the existing dioceses of England and Wales to absorb, if press reports of 1,500 C of E clergy coming over are even half true. Can we imagine the Archdiocese of Westminster suddenly taking on the support and education of, say, 300 married former Anglican clergy and their families during the time (perhaps a year or two) between their reception into full communion with the Catholic Church and their ordination as priests? The hierarchy will, I expect, balk at this. But the implosion of the Anglican communion in general, and the C of E in particular, has been easily foreseeable for years now. I cannot imagine that Rome has not had a clear way forward planned, something perhaps on the lines of a personal prelature under canons 294-297 of the CIC/83. That seems to me to be the best way to absorb so tremendous a number of converts all at once. What terrific news! And what an example (along with the Transalpine Redemptorists) for the SSPX of the Holy Father’s generosity, if something like a personal prelature is established. All that is needed is a little humility, and our Holy Father responds with all generosity: but humility and a desire for reunion is the first step.

    Deacon Nathan Allen

  25. James says:

    I have been present at many Masses celebrated by Bishop Andrew, and he is a very sincere, down-to-earth, and most importantly, holy man. I am lucky to be under his pastoral care and we must not forget the great sacrifice he is making by converting, renouncing his responsibilities as Bishop. As an Anglo-Catholic, I ask for all your prayers for myself and my brothers in the English Church, and hope that not only the hierarchy of the Church receives us with joy but also the individual parishes maintain their charity.

  26. craig says:

    “It is apparent now WHY Rome waited until after Lambeth to announce the decision regarding the TAC petition.”

    Did Rome announce a decision regarding the TAC, and I missed it? Or do you mean why Rome has not announced yet?

  27. Jack Regan says:

    *It would seem to be a lot for the existing dioceses of England and Wales to absorb, if press reports of 1,500 C of E clergy coming over are even half true*

    Highly unlikely that those reports are true.

    What we’re talking about here is the remnant of those who didn’t come over when women priests came in a few years back. That was the big move. Not this. And back then there were (wild guess coming up) 200-300 nationally. There won’t be 1500 now.

  28. There is a huge difference between a conversion from the Anglican sect and a juridical regularization of Roman Catholic clergy already fully professing the Faith and upholding Catholic dogma and government inviolate and submitting to the Holy Roman Church (as in the SSPX case). Especially if the conversion pertains to Catholic creed and the regularization to the defense of the same Catholic unchangeable dogmata.

    I hope these Anglican clergymen will come over indeed. But that they will not be depressive over what they encounter in the ‘modern’ Catholic Church and the denial of Catholic dogma everywhere by persons claiming/purporting to be Church officials and legitimate shepherds (while in fact having automatically lost their office due to public formal heresy).

    After due ordination (absolute “re”-ordination) they might prove great shepherds.

  29. Jack Regan says:

    Let’s remember as well, that not all of those leaving will be coming our way. Most will, that’s for sure. But some are evangelical Anglicans (it’s not just the Anglo-Catholics who object!) who will probably go to more Protestant communities. And many will go to the Anglican provinces which are splitting away over the ordination of homosexuals.

    ..I think!

  30. The ‘Anglican Use’ may have been allowed, but it’s not perfect. There is nothing we can ‘learn’ from the heretic Cranmer and his liturgical books.

    While I respect the feelings of the converts, they should be brought to rediscover the legitimate Salisbury (Sarum) Use inside the Latin Church. For Anglican converts to the Catholic Church are Roman Catholics or Latins, not some new ‘particular church’, as their ‘church’ was never one to begin with.

  31. Prof. Basto says:

    Confitemini Domino quoniam bonus
    quoniam in aeternum misericordia Eius

  32. craig,

    Sorry for the poor phrasing…

    There has not yet been an announcement as far as I can tell. I read somewhere that Rome was waiting for Lambeth. My hunch is that Rome was waiting to see what the outcome of this vote and others might be, since obviously this affects so many more than just the TAC.

    Prayers continue…

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

  33. Augustine says:

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    8 July 2008
    Church of England bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome
    CATEGORY: SESSIUNCULUM — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 2:04 pm

    We are watching the Anglican implode this week.

    No surprise.

    But this is rather interesting. Damian Thompson has this to report, as I picked up from my friend Fr. Blake:

    [Church of England] bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome
    Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 04:30 PM GMT

    The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week.

    Bishop Burnham, one of two “flying bishops” in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for “magnanimous gestures” that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse.

    He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican’s head of ecumenism. He was accompanied on his visit by the Rt Rev Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough, the other Canterbury “flying bishop”, who is expected to follow his example.

    Bishop Burnham hopes that Rome will offer special arrangements whereby former Anglicans can stay worshipping in parishes under the guidance of a Catholic bishop. Most of these parishes already use the Roman liturgy, but there may be provision for Anglican prayers if churches request it.

    Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches.

    In his statement, Bishop Burnham explains why he is rejecting the code of practice offered to traditionalists by the General Synod last night. “How could we trust a code of practice to deliver a workable ecclesiology if every suggestion we have made for our inclusion has been turned down flat?” he asks.

    “How could we trust a code of practice when those who are offering it include those who have done most to undermine and seek to revoke the code of practice in force for these last 14 years? …

    “What we must humbly ask for now is for magnanimous gestures from our Catholic friends, especially from the Holy Father, who well understands our longing for unity, and from the hierarchy of England and Wales. Most of all we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us.”

    I pray that these men, and the people who follow them, will have strength and courage to stand up to the pressure they will face now that they have made these statements.

    May they come to Rome.

    They have with humilty asked for a magnanimous gesture from Pope Benedict.

    Can you think of anyone else who perhaps should be watching their good example?

    • • • • • •
    31 Comments »
    Glorious and Magnificent. HE IS a true shepherd. Totally connected with his people. Its wonderful to see that. Now if others that are already “in the club” could act this way about orthodox interpretation of the liturgy and catechism, we would all be better off.

    What I have liked about the anglicans too, the conservative ones, is they are more apt to where the regalia, regalia that says “I am a Bishop, let me guide you”.. Sometimes you cant even tell who a bishop is unless you see their pectoral cross, and even then its a guessing game

    Comment by patrick f — 8 July 2008 @ 2:25 pm
    Welcome home, dear brethren! Words cannot express my joy.
    God be praised!

    Comment by John Womack — 8 July 2008 @ 2:27 pm
    How big of boat do they need to cross the Tiber?

    Comment by John6:54 — 8 July 2008 @ 2:31 pm
    Benedict the Magnanimous!

    I like the sound of it. May he reunite Christ’s Church.

    Comment by Brian Walden — 8 July 2008 @ 2:31 pm
    Father Z, thanks for posting this wonderful news. Even more wonderful because I would assume the Anglican bishops and priests are very
    tradition minded and will give a welcome shot in the arm to English Catholicism. Regards, Tom

    Comment by TJM — 8 July 2008 @ 2:35 pm
    Welcome, Welcome! I for one welcome all who come to the Church. I know that for many of you it may be a difficult journey. I will be praying for you everyday. I hope, overtime you come to love the Church. For all who are unable to ‘Pope’ I also pray for you will find solace.

    God Bless

    Paul

    Comment by Paul in the GNW — 8 July 2008 @ 2:45 pm
    Brian,

    I have been thinking “Benedict the Miraculous” Magnificent and Magnanimous work too, but I think I still prefer Miraculous. What about “Benedict Maximus”?

    Paul

    Comment by Paul in the GNW — 8 July 2008 @ 2:46 pm
    I sometimes wonder what kind of Catholics these folks would make if they
    do decide to come over. Will they have to say something like “Gosh, were
    we ever wrong. We are soooooo sorry! We can see that now.”

    What would happen if in a fit of relative sanity the Anglicans were to go
    back to not allowing women ‘bishops.’ Would this group of people just jump
    ship back over to the other side?

    Comment by AltBanater — 8 July 2008 @ 2:48 pm
    I don’t think it’s called for to second guess the motives of those Anglicans seeking to come over to us. It is uncharitable, and betrays our mission. We should rejoice that our separated brethren are returning, as we are in fact interested in the salvation of their souls. The details will take care of themselves; it suffices that they sincerely desire to return to the Church.

    Anti-spam word is caritas – how appropriate!

    Comment by Steve K. — 8 July 2008 @ 2:56 pm
    Will they get rid of their deaconnesses when they come or is that something they will keep as part of their anglican heritage?

    Comment by Tim — 8 July 2008 @ 2:59 pm
    Pray for lots of magnanimity. Of course individual situations need to be regularised, but we need a lot of generousity from all involved!

    There is a lot of hurt in the “Anglo-Catholic” wing, and a lot of people are aching to be in communion with the Church. Remember, they thought they were… until suddenly they find the Church of England is not going to right itself and do a U-turn.

    Comment by Mark M — 8 July 2008 @ 3:03 pm
    As I said at Father Phillips blog so will I say here:

    I sincerely hope the Holy Father permits the Anglo-Catholics to retain the usage of the Anglican Missal which is an excellent translation of the Traditional Latin Missal from 1955 I believe. I am of the firm opinion that if we had simply used a missal like the Anglican Missal with it’s excellent translations of the Gregorian rite, we would never have needed the Novus Ordo. As an addendum, the Anglican breviary would be an excellent addition to any Traditionalist Catholic home as it too is a highly accurate and literate translation of the 1955 Roman breviary. I have a copy and can vouch for the beautiful prose. So please, we beg thee dear Holy Father…DO NOT FOIST THE NOVUS ORDO ON THE ANGLO CATHOLICS!

    Greg Hessel
    Traditionalist in Arlington Diocese

    08 July, 2008 18:28

    Comment by Greg Hessel in Arlington Diocese — 8 July 2008 @ 3:10 pm
    I don’t think it serves any purpose to question the motives of these folks, for whatever reason they have finally reached a breaking-point and that is enough. I don’t recall the father asking the Prodigal Son “why did you come home, what do you want from me?” As long as they approach Rome with some humility and treated like adults, they will be able to make a mature choice whether to accept the authority of the Pope and the Church – or not. That’s good enough for me. But I do feel that if some sort of distinctive structure was to be created it might facilitate some further returns as the Anglican Communion continues to self-destruct.

    Comment by Maynardus — 8 July 2008 @ 3:12 pm
    I would assume the Anglican bishops and priests are very tradition minded and will give a welcome shot in the arm to English Catholicism.

    Indeed. Especially if, as I’ve heard, some of these traditional Anglicans use pre-Vatican II Roman missals.

    Will they have to say something like “Gosh, were
    we ever wrong. We are soooooo sorry! We can see that now.”

    In which case there may be some question who’s been wrong and who’s been right.

    Comment by Henry Edwards — 8 July 2008 @ 3:18 pm
    I don’t see why we should be any harder on these converts, however they arrive, than we are on the parishioners at the average parish. I would acknowledge that some won’t make the journey, and some who attempt it will fail, and that some who actually profess the Catholic faith will then lapse back into some form of protestantism. Really, I have seen the same thing in RCIA, and in cradle Catholics. I have a little more concern about Priests, but again, I have met plenty of Priests today that I could live without.

    JPII “BE NOT AFRAID”

    Lets make the road for these people as wide and smooth as we can. Lets let time heal the wounds. We can focus on Catechesis as we grow together.

    Obviously, none (or very few – and they aren’t saying) have seen the outlines of Benedict’s plan. It seems possible that there would be a period of Catechesis, and that there would be opportunity for those who chose another path. Also, I think Benedict is willing to let people grow faith as the journey progresses.

    It would be a real scandal to let this opportunity pass without the best Christian, charitable response we can muster.

    As a side note, I have often wondered why Cardinal Lavada at the CDF. I have come to think perhaps Benedict wanted someone he knew he could mold and shape for exactly this circumstance. Someone more ‘hardline’ might have gummed this up.

    God Bless

    Keep it Charitable and Welcoming

    Paul

    Comment by Paul in the GNW — 8 July 2008 @ 3:18 pm
    Deo gratias! Welcome home!

    Comment by David — 8 July 2008 @ 3:35 pm
    So long as they join us because they believe Catholicism is RIGHT all is well. But if they come over because they think Anglicanism is wrong, we run the risk of people trying in the future to make the Church into their version of Anglicanism.

    I won’t presume on their faith of course.

    But I pray that Ven. Cardinal Newman intercedes for them.

    Comment by David — 8 July 2008 @ 3:49 pm
    Hoorah, the beginning of the end of the heretical reformation!”

    Comment by Timotheos — 8 July 2008 @ 3:52 pm
    Praise God! This is a true movement of the Holy Spirit. The wheat and the chaff, the sheep and the goats. All are aligning according to their adherence to the teachings and faithful interpretation of the Holy Gospel.

    It is apparent now WHY Rome waited until after Lambeth to announce the decision regarding the TAC petition. I would hope that a Personal Prelature structure is in mind for them and would include all those who might fit under the pastoral prevision. Such a move could only help to secure both the trust of Anglo-Catholics who desire the retention of their authentic and unique liturgical ethos, while at the same time demonstrating to other groups (such as the SSPX) how such things could be handled well for them.

    I certainly hope Bishop Tom Wright joins in the movement. Despite his support for Rowan, he would be a marvelous addition to the fold.

    In ICXC,

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

    Comment by Father Deacon Daniel — 8 July 2008 @ 3:53 pm
    So long as they join us because they believe Catholicism is RIGHT all is well. But if they come over because they think Anglicanism is wrong, we run the risk of people trying in the future to make the Church into their version of Anglicanism.

    Well said.

    Many high Anglicans would like to see an ‘Anglican Rite’ of the Catholic Church. What do people think about that idea?

    I’m not sure myself.

    Comment by Jack Regan — 8 July 2008 @ 3:54 pm
    Benedict the Unifier?

    Benedict the Merciful?

    Benedict… the Great?

    Comment by LCB — 8 July 2008″

    Surely Benedict the Theologian???

    “they should be brought to rediscover the legitimate Salisbury (Sarum) Use”

    English Roman Catholics could use this also. It would greatly help re-integration and reunion. A common heritage and a common restoration. It would be as if the schism had never occured, as if it had healed naturally, dare I say… organically? We must pray for the Catholic bishops that a solution may be found as soon as possible, deo volente.

  34. Maureen says:

    God is great and good. And to all the Tiber-crossers — we’ll keep a light on in the window for you!

  35. Warren Anderson says:

    Anglo-Catholics coming home, TAC coming home, SSPX on the doorstep… be still my heart. Prayer, lots of fervent prayer.

  36. Matthew Mattingly says:

    Although this is wonderful news, it’s not unexpected. The Anglican Church is imploding, as the USA Episcopal Church (down to less than 2 million this year in the USA, with most church congregations at not more than 70 members each). There are only 5,000 Episcopal Churches in the USA, and recently, 85 were closed in 1 mass action. The USA collapse has picked up speed with the election of the USA’s first woman “Presiding Bishop”, Jeffers-Shori. Look for the Church of England to collapse now that they too will have female bishops.

    We welcome all the Anglicans who enter the true Faith in the Roman Catholic Church under the successor of St. Peter, benedict XVI. I’m not sure if the lay people need to re-baptise….they might if they use femminist illicit formulae, and of course all priests must recieve re-ordination-orientation. And I just read that no Episcopal bishop who converts to the Roman Catholic Church (and is married), may function as a Bishop….they can be priests, but must renounce the title of “Bishop”.

  37. Guy Power says:

    John 6 ’till 7:00* writes:How big of boat do they need to cross the Tiber?

    No boat; they need a bridge …. a pontoon bridge; if you catch my … drift.

    :^D

    p.s. *or was that John 6:54? :^D

  38. CTrent1564 says:

    Matthew:

    Baptisms would not be redone, since I am sure these Traditional Anglicans all have Baptisms in conformity with Apostolic Tradition, i.e. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and Flowing water. Anglican clergy would be ordained as Catholic Priests, or in some cases, conditionally ordained if an Anglican clergyman had his orders regularized by some of the Old Catholic Bishops, which I think is what was done when Anglican Bishop Graham Leonard came into communion with Rome in the late 1980′s since I believe he was ordained by an Anglican Bishop who had been ordained by the Old Catholic Bishops who rejected Vatican I.

    Regards

  39. Matt of South Kent says:

    I hope and pray that the Anglo-Catholics join and find spiritual happiness. It would great to see unity.

    I trust Pope Benedict XVI will do the right thing, he has a great record.

    I would love to see a Sarum Rite created for all Anglicans to come home to but I defer to the Pope. I fear the Anglicans setting up their own version of SSPX. No offense to my SSPX brothers and sisters.

    Maybe we will get two great pieces of news soon, the Sarum Rite and the excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted. PRAYING VERY HARD TO NIGHT, FASTING TOMORROW.

  40. Londiniensis says:

    I found M.J. Ernst-Sandoval’s post enlightening and will follow up the references, but I had understood that where whole parishes have already come over in the United States, they use “The Book of Divine Worship”, which is authorised for (Catholic) Anglican Use parishes. Presumably if this exists already, why re-invent it?

    From what I have seen, The Book of Divine Worship uses (mainly) Cranmerian English, so much more beautiful and fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass than our own lamentable ICEL (even taking into account the proposed changes). Although there are some disappointments – the Roman Canon is used, unfortunately with “for all”, and the rather weak Novus Ordo Offertory – overall this is dignified vernacular worship. It is little wonder that our (English and Welsh) Conference of Bishops is rumoured to be dead set against a Roman Catholic Anglican Use within these shores.

    You can see Rite 1 of the Ordinary of the Mass in The Book of Divine Worship here http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html

    There is some pithy comment on the historical prevailing attitudes of the English & Welsh hierarchy to Anglican conversion here http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08070717.html

    Key quote: The talks come with a backdrop of a difficult history. In 1992, when the Church of England voted to ordain female clergy, a similar crisis ensued in which a large number of Anglican ministers applied to Rome to create a provision to retain the traditional Anglican style of worship but seek communion with the See of Rome. At that time, under Pope John Paul II, some “Anglican Use” parishes were established in the US, but the episcopate of the Catholic Church of England and Wales obstructed the solution. Hopes were dashed when the Catholic bishops of England and Wales announced that converts would only be accepted individually, not en masse, and there would be no provision made for the retention of 500 year-old Anglican liturgical traditions. It was noted that the heavily liberalised Catholic leadership did not relish the thought of a massive influx of doctrinally and liturgically traditional and highly educated clergy into their midst.

  41. pio says:

    I am going for Mass now. I will give thanks to the Lord. May Our Divine Saviour
    and the Most Holy Mother of God bring our Anglican brothers safely across the
    Tiber. I am praying for an Anglican Rite. A good Anglican Rite liturgy in the
    Catholic church will be a fine anti-dote for the badly translated Novus Ordo
    Liturgy. The Lord has a plan and hand in all this. Veni Sancte Spiritus. Sancta
    Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro nostri fratri Anglicani. Sancte Petre et Paule, orate
    pro eos.
    Gratias Deo, Alleluiah.
    - pio, chicago

  42. Jeff says:

    Do you think they will believe in important dogmas of the Catholic faith such as Transubstantiation?

  43. Cathguy says:

    Deo Gratias!

    So long as they profess and believe everything that the Church teaches, we ought to welcome these fine people with open arms!

    Benedict the Great sounds good to me!

  44. Brian Walden says:

    italics off Did it work?

  45. Henrici says:

    Do you think they will believe in important dogmas of the Catholic faith such as Transubstantiation?

    I understand they do. Perhaps a more pertinent question is how many allegedly Roman Catholics still do. Indeed, what I see in this is a welcome influx of orthodox believers and priests into the Church. And this, apparently, is what the English bishops are chary of.

  46. Paul in the GNW says:

    Cathguy

    I understand the point of your comments, and to a degree I share your concerns. Certainly for Bishops and clergy (respect them – valid orders or not) the bar is higher. But for the lay people, how high does the bar have to be? Certainly there need to be catechism, and time for prayer. It is better for all if they chose the Church with full knowledge and freedom and not as a lifeboat. However, for most of these people ‘Poping’ will be a big deal, I doubt they will take it lightly.

    Really, how many people in the typical parish church “profess and believe everything the Church teaches” in the strictest sense? We can’t let ourselves be afraid that a few ‘weak’ converts might hurt the Church.

    Be Not Afraid

    Pray and Fast

    Paul

  47. Paul in the GNW says:

    What I am trying to say, is lets open the door. Let’s invite them in with open arms. Yes, they will need to discern, they will need to be catechized, and full unity will take some time, but lets not focus on the road blocks, lets focus on prayerfully beginning a journey together.

    Yes, I want them to become CATHOLIC in every sense, but let’s meet them where they are and help them.

    Blessings

    Paul

  48. Kenneth J. Hendrickson says:

    There are Anglo-Catholic Anglicans who fully believe the Faith — all of it: Transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. I was one of them, long before I was in the Catholic Church. (St. Cyril of Jerusalem converted me, with his “Lectures on the Sacraments”. St. Irenaeus and St. Ignatius also helped a great deal.)

    As a Protestant who had read himself into the Church, I found myself in a position where I could not stomach the bad English translation of the Novus Ordo, and I greatly disliked the “for many” (which was not only unBiblical, but seemed to be teaching something other than the Catholic Faith) in the Anglican Use. Furthermore, where I lived at the time, the Anglican Use was not available.

    I had come from a parish which used the Anglican Missal. That Liturgy, along with my reading of the Church Fathers, taught me the Faith. I wanted it, needed it, but I also wanted the beauty of the Anglican Liturgy I found at St. Mary of the Angels Anglican Catholic Church in Hollywood, CA. It was not available in Dallas, TX.

    Here I was, theologically Catholic, but not yet in the Church. I had to get myself in, but I could not quite stomach the liturgical innovations brought about by the liberals. Thanks be to God, I was fortunate enough to find the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, at St. Basil the Great, in Irving, TX. I knew I was home from the very first Divine Liturgy. It took quite a while for the priest to accept me into the Church. I so longed for the Eucharist, but couldn’t have it. But finally, I was received at Pascha. I’ve been Byzantine Catholic for more than 10 years now.

    As a former Anglican, I pray that the Pope will grant a Sarum Rite. The use of the Anglican Missal or the English Missal would be fantastic. It was what Vatican II was aiming at, but missed.

    For all of you Catholics who were praying for me before I was in the Church, thank you. I request that you now all pray for those Anglicans who recognize that they must be in communion with the successor of Peter, despite the roadblocks that the liberal American and English bishops may put in their way. Please pray that those roadblocks would be removed or minimized. Please pray for God’s grace. Please pray for all of our separated brethren.

    For any Anglicans who may be reading this, please also consider the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. You will find the same extraordinary beauty that you have known in Mass according to the Anglican and English Missals.

    Kenneth J. Hendrickson

  49. Andrew says:

    My entire family converted to Catholicism from Reformed Covenant. It always pleases me when people convert. Also, the book of Common Prayer uses beautiful language. I believe that we can learn a lot from it. In fact, I believe that it would have been a wonderful thing if our vernacular liturgies had been translated from the Latin using similar type language. The Book of Common Prayer has beautiful prayers. Even if we don’t like Cranmer, if he wrote a beautiful prayer that articulates what we want to articulate, then we should use it.

  50. Whoops. Got cut off! Here’s the Catholic Encyclopedia article:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm

    As well, I was saying that the Book of Divine Worship would be a bid step down for many Anglicans, especially those who use one of the Missals.

  51. Yaqoob says:

    Dear Fr Z,

    This is great news. I knew that this was coming (esp from Bishop Andrew) for a long time. I just hope that the Catholic bishops of E and W do not get scared of them and actually welcome them with open arms. Its about time that Anglicans are welcomed back!

  52. Matt of South Kent says:

    Maybe the new Sarum Rite could have an ordinary and an extraordinary form.

    Its a brilliant idea for the Roman Rite.

    All of the these questions I am sure are being carefully studied since the TAC applied for reunion. I am hoping everyone can be patient.

    Pray hard and fast for unity!

  53. LCB says:

    Attempting to fix the italics and bolding issues.

    Gesu
    Maria
    Giuseppe

    Hopefully this has fixed it.

  54. LCB says:

    Hmm guess not. One more try.

    Hopefully this has fixed it.

  55. Louis E. says:

    Someday those tags will close.

    The historical charge of the Pontifex Maximus was the building of bridges across the Tiber…

  56. Joe in Pittsburgh says:

    If the Traditional Anglicans are choosing to come to the Catholic Church and all she teaches and believes, and not just running away from the Anglican Communion, then I welcome them and will pray for them.

    I don’t care if they end up being a Particular Church as the Eastern Catholic Churches are.

    I don’t care if they use the Sarum Use or the missal used at Our Lady of Atonement in Texas.

    I just want them to come home and embrace the Faith.

    Last year, the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, who is led by a conservative bishop, Robert Duncan, was at the forefront of splitting away from the ECUSA.
    I have heard little since. I would welcome them as well if they came for the right reasons.

  57. Maybe the new Sarum Rite could have an ordinary and an extraordinary form.

    None would rejoice more than I if the Sarum Use were to be miraculously resurrected. Hey, I even own an old English translation of the Sarum Diurnal and one of the Sarum Psalter with musical notation. However, it is not practical and it goes against liturgical tradition.

    But hey, who knows? The liturgists of the 1960s & 1970s resurrected a lot of impractical liturgical archaisms, obviously to the detriment of the Roman Rite. Who’s to say that the modern ones can’t bring back liturgical archaisms of a different sort?

  58. Marcin says:

    While I really feel joy from witnessing anyone joining the Holy Mother Church, reasons given by Bishop Burnham are not unlike the laments of Rt Rev Stephen Venner, the Suffragan Bishop of Dover, as reported by Diogenes:

    http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=4770

    Are the reasons proper?

  59. Woody Jones says:

    From the Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council:

    “Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. But their primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself, in order that its life may bear witness more clearly and faithfully to the teachings and institutions which have come to it from Christ through the Apostles.

    For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church’s image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God’s kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection(24) and, each according to his station, play his part that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed. For the Church must bear in her own body the humility and dying of Jesus,(25) against the day when Christ will present her to Himself in all her glory without spot or wrinkle.(26)

    All in the Church must preserve unity in essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline, in their different liturgical rites, and even in their theological elaborations of revealed truth. In all things let charity prevail. If they are true to this course of action, they will be giving ever better expression to the authentic catholicity and apostolicity of the Church.

    On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise.

    Nor should we forget that anything wrought by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of our separated brethren can be a help to our own edification. Whatever is truly Christian is never contrary to what genuinely belongs to the faith; indeed, it can always bring a deeper realization of the mystery of Christ and the Church.”

    And quoted in “Facing Unity: Models, Forms and Phases of Catholic-Lutheran Church Fellowship”:

    “Paul VI, in an address on the occasion of the visit of the Archbishop of Canterbury and referring to the Anglican-Catholic conversations at Malines, said, “The pace of this movement (Anglican-Catholic rapprochement) has quickened marvelously in recent years, so that these words of hope ‘The Anglican Church united not absorbed’ are no longer a mere dream”.”

    From http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_facing.html#note16

    Paul VI was quoting, and evidently endorsing (i.e. “these words of hope”), the formula for Anglican-Roman Catholic reunion proffered most publicly by Cardinal Mercier in the famous Malines Conversations of the 1920s. Perhaps now the Good Lord, in His own way, rather than man’s way, is working this through to at least a partial conclusion.

  60. HMacK says:

    Provided the traditional Anglicans are really prepared to become Romans at heart then why should they be prevented from accepting full papal authority & full communion with The Church? I am sure many of these faithful, stout-hearted and courageous people will inject an extra dynamic for tradition in The Roman Catholic Church which, if we are honest with ourselves, has been in danger recently of being rent apart by forces similar to those in the Anglican sect: liturgical and doctrinal liberalism, feminism, homosexuality and religious pluralism. My experiences with traditional Anglicans was very positive and I found myself to have more in common with them than the modernist & liberal catholics who have surrounded me over the last 30 years. Four hundred and fifty years later some of the wandering sheep are returning to the sheepfold. We await Pope Benedict XVI to open the gate to the penfold.

  61. HMacK says:

    Provided the traditional Anglicans are really prepared to become Romans at heart then why should they be prevented from accepting full papal authority & full communion with The Church? I am sure many of these faithful, stout-hearted and courageous people will inject an extra dynamic for tradition in The Roman Catholic Church which, if we are honest with ourselves, has been in danger recently of being rent apart by forces similar to those in the Anglican sect: liturgical and doctrinal liberalism, feminism, homosexuality and religious pluralism. My experiences with traditional Anglicans was very positive and I found myself to have more in common with them than the modernist & liberal catholics who have surrounded me over the last 30 years. Four hundred and fifty years later some of the wandering sheep are returning to the sheepfold. We await Pope Benedict XVI to open the gate of the penfold at the most appropriate time.

  62. Greg Hessel in Arlington Diocese says:

    M.J. Ernst-Sandoval highlights a problem. With all the splits amongst the Anglo-Catholics, Rome can’t possibly approve every liturgical book they would like to have. Would it be the Sarum Rite, the Anglican Missal, the English Missal, the 1928 Prayer Book with adaptions, or maybe the 1979 Prayerbook? How do you resolve that? It would be like the FSSP demanding the 1955 Roman Missal, the ICKSP demanding the 1950 Missal while diocesan priests use the 1962 version.

  63. RBrown says:

    Paul VI was quoting, and evidently endorsing (i.e. “these words of hope”), the formula for Anglican-Roman Catholic reunion proffered most publicly by Cardinal Mercier in the famous Malines Conversations of the 1920s. Perhaps now the Good Lord, in His own way, rather than man’s way, is working this through to at least a partial conclusion.
    Comment by Woody Jones

    Isn’t it ironic that this proposed Romanization of Anglicans would be happening in spite of (rather than because of) all the Ecumenical schmoozing by Catholic bishops with Rowan Williams, George Carey, et al?

    The path to Rome runs through Catholic Doctrine.

  64. Matt Q says:

    I believe this is great news, and something we can hope for. At the moment, I believe this is more tangible at the moment than the SSPX returning ( but that’s on a different level ). It shows the Holy Spirit is at work. It also shows there are moments in history when events foment and give rise to such efforts as the Anglicans wishing entry ( or RETURN in this case ) into the Roman Church.

    I pray: “Holy Father, grant it to them!!” In the sense of the Church Militant, this would be the greatest vindication of the all English Catholics who lost their lives due to the Reformation.

    Greg Hessel wrote:

    “I sincerely hope the Holy Father permits the Anglo-Catholics to retain the usage of the Anglican Missal which is an excellent translation of the Traditional Latin Missal from 1955 I believe. I am of the firm opinion that if we had simply used a missal like the Anglican Missal with it’s excellent translations of the Gregorian rite, we would never have needed the Novus Ordo. As an addendum, the Anglican breviary would be an excellent addition to any Traditionalist Catholic home as it too is a highly accurate and literate translation of the 1955 Roman breviary. I have a copy and can vouch for the beautiful prose. So please, we beg thee dear Holy Father… DO NOT FOIST THE NOVUS ORDO ON THE ANGLO CATHOLICS!”

    )(

    Really, they used the Missal of 1955? What did they do when they came to the Pope part? Casually bypass it?

    In any case, I pray these Anglicans are allowed in the Church. Unless there is a true impediment ( and there could be a few, canonically and theologically ) why not? If Rome drops the ball on these people, then anything else they talk about regarding ecumenism is WORTHLESS.

    I also hope and pray they are allowed to say their own or slightly modified indulted Mass. There are parishes like Our Lady Of Walsingham, Houston, Texas, which is a Roman Catholic church of Anglican Use. JPII created it for them. Thus, we can bypass the Novos Ordo altogether. If a personal parish can erected for the Tridentine communities, then one can be erected for these Anglicans as well. It should be done so they can have their Masses and avoid the N. O. I don’t know how this would play out here is Los Angeles. The dynamics here are so bizarre…!!

    ======

    David wrote:

    “So long as they join us because they believe Catholicism is RIGHT all is well. But if they come over because they think Anglicanism is wrong, we run the risk of people trying in the future to make the Church into their version of Anglicanism.

    I won’t presume on their faith of course.

    But I pray that Ven. Cardinal Newman intercedes for them.”

    )(

    Yes, a very sobering pause to consider. It adds another dimension to the impediment factor I was talking about. Great job, David.

  65. Kenneth J. Hendrickson says:

    — Matt Q wrote:
    > What did they do when they came to the Pope part?

    Why, they pray for the pope!! Of course!! (What else would they do?)

    > If a personal parish can erected for the Tridentine
    > communities, then one can be erected for these
    > Anglicans as well. It should be done so they can have
    > their Masses and avoid the N. O. I don’t know how this
    > would play out here is Los Angeles. The dynamics here
    > are so bizarre…!!

    I pray, likewise, that the Anglo-Catholic Anglicans may be received into the Catholic Church along with their Anglican Missal (or English Missal). It is a most incredibly beautiful Liturgy, and it taught me the Faith as I was on my way into the Church. It is fully Catholic, at least theologically and liturgically.

    Since you are in Los Angeles, you can go and see (pray) for yourself the Mass according to the Anglican Missal. Go to St. Mary of the Angels Anglican Catholic Church on Finley Ave.
    http://www.StMaryOfTheAngels.org/

    You are right that things are bizarre in Los Angeles. Bishop Roger Mahony refused this very same congregation entrance into the Catholic Church. Read about it here:
    http://www.LosAngelesMission.com/ed/articles/1999/1299cc.htm
    May God have mercy on his soul!

    I pray that soon, the entire congregation at St. Mary of the Angels may also be fully received into the Catholic Church, despite the objections of Bp. Mahony.

    I love those people. They, along with St. Cyril of Jerusalem, taught me the Christian Faith. They showed me the Mass, which is a participation in the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Once Offered. (Their Mass is essentially the “Extraordinary Form”, but in Elizabethan English.) They imparted to me the Christian Sacramental and Incarnational mindset. They showed me how to truly worship God, with a Liturgy so incredibly chock full of scripture that it still seems to me that the Protestants don’t really know scripture. They gave me a gift, or rather — God gave me a gift through them — which is beyond price.

    I am in the Church now, having converted and been received into the Byzantine Catholic Rite. That is partially an accident of history. If I had never left Los Angeles, I am quite sure that I would still be a parishoner at St. Mary of the Angels, and I would be only imperfectly connected to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

    My friends at St. Mary of the Angels are not yet fully in communion with the Church. I long for them to have what I have. And I know that they long to have what I now have! They wanted communion with Rome long before I ever did! They wanted to come home before I knew where home was.

    Lord Have Mercy!
    Lord Have Mercy!
    Lord Have Mercy!

    Holy Father, Pope Benedict, Please Give the Blessing!!!
    Let ‘em in, and let their Anglican Missal in with ‘em!!!

    Kenneth J. Hendrickson

  66. Richard says:

    Thanks for posting on this, Father.

  67. motuproprio says:

    Perhaps this will accelerate the appointment of an imaginative Archbishop of Westminster who can carry through all that Benedict deems to be wise for the Catholic Church in England.

  68. EnglishCatholic says:

    Although those calling for generosity and those calling for caution make
    very good points, let’s not forget that Andrew Burnham is married.
    So however many of his vicars eventually become Catholic priests,
    there is no chance whatsoever of him remaining a Bishop if he crosses the Tiber.
    And yet still he puts his faith and principles first.
    I have enormous respect for that.

  69. josephus muris saliensis says:

    Lots of sensible comments, so how about a more light-hearted one…

    Isn’t it felicitous that the Bishop of Ebbsfleet has his own Eurostar station opened last year, Ebbsfleet International, from which to embark upon his journey to Rome?

    Thank you CTRL, for this prophetic naming of the new station – rarely are railways part of the economy of salvation. Now its up to the Pontifex Maximus to provide a railway bridge…

  70. ADAM says:

    well I hope any helter-skelter rush towards catholicism is tempered by the reality that
    the anglican’bishops and priests’ are indeed NOT bishops and priests in the apostolic
    line and therefore they will need to be in process for any future ordinations etc.
    The tragedy of the anglican sect in the Uk is that it was founded as a breakaway from
    the True Church by an adulterous king who sought to set up his own sect and in the process
    destroyed the monastries, created spiritual mahem and tore the fabric of Christ’s Church
    asunder. This 400 year old schism is now reaping more drama that sees the way in which
    women are seeking power that is not of the gospel, nor of the apostolic line from peter.
    The C of E is in total denial. It has a ‘leader’ who can’t lead. This is a spiritual
    tragedy but one of their own making. Catholicism must stand strong and show that Jesus
    remains the rock and foundation of the Church, under Peter’s successor.

  71. Adam,

    Perhaps your view could be tempered by the fact that none of these faithful Anglo-Catholic bishops and priests were around 400 years ago when the schism occurred, nor did they desire or support any aspect of this current tragedy (and travesty of justice).

    Also, some Anglican bishops and priests do have apostolic succession and valid orders, so let’s not paint with two broad a brush here.

    God bless,

    Fr. Deacon Daniel

  72. Simon Platt says:

    I commend readers, especially those in the United States, to the comments on Holy Smoke. Most of these are from commentators, both catholic and protestant, in or from England and – please don’t be offended by this – they seem to have a better idea what they’re talking about on all sides of the argument. Give it a try and see what the English think.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson

  73. Look, there is so much at stake for all of us! As the report stated, we already use the Roman Missal in our daily Mass, we worship in the beauty of holiness, I am in agreement with the doctrine and most importantly the discipline of the Catholic Church. I am a married priest who grew up in a Protestant home. I am against contraception (I have six children) and I have a strong sense of call to full-time vocational priesthood. I am nearly 40 and my life feels like it is in a whirlwind right now. For the past 4 years I have been working on a PhD on Eucharistic Sacrifice and Ecumenism with Rome. We need grace, love, welcome and direction. If I had been born in a Catholic family there is no doubt God would have given me graces for celibacy and I would be a Catholic priest but that was not in God’s plan. We need prayers and generosity for the times are very difficult in Europe and America and we need a robust evangelisation of England in its Catholic rootedness. What we saw on Monday was a complete denial of our catholicity. Please do not judge us, pray for us! May Mary, our Lady of Walsingham intercede for us as her children.

  74. Chris Molter says:

    Simon,

    It looks like most of the comments on Thompson’s article are either boilerplate Anti-Catholicism or the typical Marxist framing of an argument in terms of temporal power.

  75. It would be like the FSSP demanding the 1955 Roman Missal, the ICKSP demanding the 1950 Missal while diocesan priests use the 1962 version.

    Why not? There’s nothing wrong with any of these pre-Vatican II Roman missals. “What was sacred then is sacred now.” Right?

  76. jacobus says:

    “It would be like the FSSP demanding the 1955 Roman Missal, the ICKSP demanding the 1950 Missal while diocesan priests use the 1962 version.”

    So? Who cares? For most of the history of the Church, different communities and places had their own liturgies.

  77. Argent says:

    Close tags.

  78. Argent says:

    Fr. Z,

    Would you check this comment and close the open em tag? And this comment to close the strong tag. I tried posting the close tags code as did others.

  79. Matthew says:

    Gee, maybe the solution to finding a Latin Mass while in full communion with
    Rome will be easier for us (in dioceses stricken with non-Traditional friendly
    Bishops) to attend by going to high, Anglo-Catholic Masses in the coming days
    (tongue in cheek). Our only Tridentine Mass available is still the ‘indult’
    Sunday 8:00 a.m. Mass downtown. A local petition was collected with 50+
    signatures a year ago for St. Joseph’s to facilitate a Tridentine Mass but we
    are still being held hostages by the Novus Ordo armies….

  80. Matt Q says:

    Kenneth, thank you for sharing. It was an interesting post.

    Regarding your reply, “Why, they pray for the pope!! Of course!! (What else would they do?)” Why would this be an obvious concept? A denomination whose very existence was to be in diametric oppostion to the Roman Faith wouldn’t necessarily include praying for the Pope. Anglican prayers have only optional General Intercessions for the Queen, but to pray for the Pope… hardly.

    The article contained a curious comment, “As for our losing people–sure! Try living a Catholic life without a bishop!” LOL Try living a Catholic life with a bishop like Mahony!!

    God bless.

    ======

    Jacobus wrote:

    “So? Who cares? For most of the history of the Church, different communities and places had their own liturgies.”

    )(

    True, and that is what the Countil of Trent tried to streamline.

    Comment by jacobus

  81. Jacobus and Henry Edwards,

    If such communities asked for 1950 or 1955 Missal it would be based solely on the fact that they didn’t like changes introduced by the Apostolic see. This is not true liturgical development like the Dominican missal. Big difference.

  82. Greg: If such communities asked for 1950 or 1955 Missal it would be based solely on the fact that they didn’t like changes introduced by the Apostolic see.

    Truly, an incisive observation, this! Really, is it possible that there’s a Catholic alive who likes all the changes introduced by the Apostolic See in the past 50 years.

    But more to the point, I wonder whether there’s a serious student of the classical Missale Romanum here who’s willing to say he now thinks all the 1962 revisions — e.g., the deletions of venerable octaves — were well-advised. Or that some of the revisions in the 1962 Roman Breviary do not seem still more hasty and ill-advised.

    Which, perhaps, is simply to caution anyone who erroneously thinks that liturgical missteps, later admitted and corrected, in the Church began with the Novus Ordo.

  83. Rev. Dr. Mike says:

    In the USA, there are three bishops that did some jumping and swim acts (Florida, Albany, New York and one in Txas -I think)
    What happen to them?
    My grandfather had a warning about jumping fish, wonder just how these folks will fit in with the history, church culture and etc.
    Who is joining whom at the altar?
    Wonder

  84. Really, they used the Missal of 1955? What did they do when they came to the Pope part? Casually bypass it?

    No, the pope’s name is inserted. Anyone who uses the Missal is an Anglican of the Anglo-Papalist variety.

  85. Jordanes says:

    Rev. Dr. Mike said: In the USA, there are three bishops that did some jumping and swim acts (Florida, Albany, New York and one in Texas -I think) What happened to them?
    My grandfather had a warning about jumping fish, wonder just how these folks will fit in with the history, church culture and etc.
    Who is joining whom at the altar?

    The one in Texas is Dr. Jeffrey Steenson, who was the Episcopalian Bishop of the Rio Grande. He was the first such man in about 150 years to be admitted into the Catholic Church without first retiring as an Episcopalian bishop and securing a pension — and as he is not a young man any more, that was truly a real sacrifice and act of faith. Dr. Steenson was a guest speaker last month at the Diocese of Peoria’s Catechetical Summer Institute, where he told his conversion story, expressed his joy and gratitude at being received into the Church, and gave seminars on the biblical, historical, archaeological, and theological basis for Petrine primacy. I understand that he is investigating the possibility of ordination under the pastoral provision. He is a humble and gentle man, and I’m sure he and his wife (who also converted) will be very grateful for our continued prayers.

  86. Henry,

    True, not all of changes made in the 1950′s were good. But, then again, not everyone likes how St Pius X radically revised the breviary either….

  87. No, the pope’s name is inserted. Anyone who uses the Missal is an Anglican of the Anglo-Papalist variety.

    I should have inserted, “in this day and age”.

  88. All Anglican clergymen have to accept at least ordination sub conditione, most in fact need absolute ordination, as they do not possess some ordination from the Old Catholic lines in the 1979 ECUSA (PECUSA) Book of Common Prayer (the first and only Anglican book with an episcopal and priestly ordination which might be valid – but are not valid 100 % surely).

    Yes, The English Missal in the vernacular (with Latin hymns or even totally in English) would be fine too, although despite the complexity, I would like to see dear English priests re-activate the Salisbury or Sarum Use indeed. It is the heritage of Catholic England!

  89. With “The English Missal” I refer to the “Knott Missal”, or the Tridentine Rite order of Mass in Elizabethan English translation, as used by some schismatic Old Catholics in England and some Anglo-Catholic High Church factions for more than a century. I think the Ultrajectine schismatic “Old Roman Catholic of the United States of America” may use it too – they are indepedent from the liberal Old Catholic Union of Utrecht churches and still reject female ordinations.

    Still, the Sarum or Salisbury Use of the Latin Church is legitimate too.

    Also, the traditional Roman Rite (the “Tridentine” Mass, or the “Missal of the Roman Curia” – as it was known prior to 1535/1546) would be fine too. Benedictines and Franciscans used it in the demolished English monasteries and priories for many centuries in the Middle Ages. The Salisbury Use was the parochial and diocesan-level rite, but the religious Orders used their own Rite – the Franciscans spread the (traditional) Roman Rite inside Medieval England indeed.

  90. Antonio says:

    And today, we also have Bishop Edwin Barnes speaking about “friends in the Roman Communion”:
    http://www.churchunion.co.uk/

  91. M.J. Ernst-Sandoval:

    DON’T CUT AND PASTE JUNK INTO COMMENTS.

    Filter it through something like notepad first.

  92. I apologized for this. I’m very sorry. This was an accident and is the first time I’ve had this ever happen. No need to drive the stake even further…

  93. memento says:

    “And today, we also have Bishop Edwin Barnes speaking about “friends in the Roman Communion”:
    http://www.churchunion.co.uk/

    This man’s ecclesiology is interesting. Edwin Barnes thinks he is already a Catholic Bishop and so watch him squirm when he is faced with the prospect of absolute ordination as a Catholic Priest (not sub conditione, like Msgr Leonard).

    Notwithstanding the points made by the Holy Father in Dominus Iesus about the Historic Succession, what is the implication of his comment that the Synod’s vote for priestesses in 1992 was somehow less protestant/heretical than the 2008 vote for bishopesses? Or at least that the game wasn’t quite “up” for Anglo-Catholics then?

    Barnes’s ecclesiology is an historical relic of the Victorian “Branch Theory” of the Church (ie. that the Anglicans are just as much a part of the Catholic Church as the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox Churches – and therefore he is the equal of any Catholic Bishop). Any priest receiving him into Full-Communion may want to take a closer interest in this.

    And before he goes on to gush even more about his “friends” in the Catholic Church, I remember being publicly rebuked by Edwin Barnes for using the (RC) Liturgy of the Hours during meditation when he was Principal of St Stephen’s House, Oxford. Such was his love of all things “Roman”.

    Come in, please – but on the Church’s terms and not your own.

  94. Steve K. says:

    memento, the Church has not offered her terms yet, and I imagine they may be quite different than what you think them to be.

  95. ADAM says:

    Fr Daniel’s comments were noted that there have been some ‘validly’ consecrated anglican
    bishops. But these are few and not mainstream, and certainly the current ‘archbishop of
    canterbury’ is not one. But I have to assert again that we ought take note of the
    1896 Bull of Leo XIII which stated quite categorically that Anglican orders are NULL AND VOID.
    This must be adhered to by catholics as teaching of the Magisterium and thus requires
    assent by all baptised catholics. In 1998 the then Cardinal Ratzinger reasserted this
    Bull and that all Catholics must adhere to that teaching from the Magisterium. Nothing has
    changed since 1896 and John Paul II also reasseretd this fact. The recent vote by the
    |Synod of the CofE re female bishops will only drive a further wedge into the unity of
    all Christians. It will now bring about and ought to indeed, the ceasation of any talks
    about unity between catholicism and anglicans. Along with the orthodox, catholics and their
    orthodox brothers and sisters, now number over 1.3 billion on the planet. It is time that the
    Anglicans realised the full seriousness and damage their fight for female ‘bishops’ will
    only end in disaster. The truth of the Gospel resides in the Catholic Church and
    the fantasy of anglican claims for a female priesthood and episcopacy only damages the
    very sacred fabric of the Risen Lord’s Church. Semper fidelis.

  96. Before this announcement, we at The Black Cordelias
    were wondering if the Traditional Anglican Communion’s gesture of asking for accomadation wouldn’t perhaps co-incide with a wider provision for ALL folks coming from Anglican bodies. (see TAC-Related Announcement post-Lambeth?)

    Time will tell, but keep ALL of these folks who want to come home in your prayers… What was it that was said about the Shephard who leaves 99 sheep grazing to recover one?

    We pray fervantly and act with charity in the hopes that even one soul is brought to the fullness of the Faith!

  97. Before this announcement, we at The Black Cordelias
    were wondering if the Traditional Anglican Communion\’s gesture of asking for accomadation wouldn\’t perhaps co-incide with a wider provision for ALL folks coming from Anglican bodies. (see TAC-Related Announcement post-Lambeth?)

    Time will tell, but keep ALL of these folks who want to come home in your prayers… What was it that was said about the Shephard who leaves 99 sheep grazing to recover one?

    We pray fervantly and act with charity in the hopes that even one soul is brought to the fullness of the Faith!

  98. Sam says:

    Maybe Fr. Z or somebody could answer these questions for me:

    Why do the Anglicans need to be given their own rite?
    Why do they have to come as a large group?

    My suspicions question why they’re leaving at this point. Was this the last straw or did they just realize that the ‘church’ of England is not really a Church?

    Why would they want their Anglican prayers?

    It’s not that I don’t like Anglicans or don’t want them to come home to Rome, but my reasoning is that they should submit and convert.

    And finally, when ‘bishop’ Burnham pointed out that every point of inclusion was rejected, isn’t that indication that he doesn’t want to become Catholic so much as receive recognition or affirmation from Rome and continue in their practice? So, what would have happened if they did allow their inclusion? Would he have remained in the ‘church’ of England?

    I hope I do not come across as rude, but my Korean ancestors suffered greatly to receive and remain in the Faith. Yet, these English seem to want the stamp of approval from the Holy Catholic Church and the Holy Father. I am suspicious why they didn’t come into the Church earlier? Is it only now that the ugly fruit that was borne of the English heresies no longer suits their tastes? I find the idea of “Anglo-Catholics” as repulsive because they feel that they can somehow be Catholic without being in union with the Pope. It is difficult for me to have sympathy for these people.

  99. Sam says:

    And I just want to add that if they do come and the Holy Father gives them a generous gesture, I will be happy and welcome them. I just have ambivalent feelings.

  100. “Can you think of anyone else who perhaps should be watching their good example?”

    Perhaps not what you meant, but it has occured to me that there ARE disaffected parties in Northern Europe where Euro-Lutherans are pulling ALL of the same shenanigans as their Anglo-Protestant cousins are.

    I have been wondering, are their any movements afoot North of Bavaria for Lutherans to make similar moves? Worth noting, the first married RC priests of the XX century were ex-Lutherans Ven. Pius XII gave permission to be ordained true Catholic priests…

  101. trooper says:

    Sorry, I assume that the post is about done, but FYI, as an Anglican who grew up with the 1928 prayer book and now occassionally attends a “modern Catholic” service, it’s an understatement to say that the difference is painful. From poetry to really bad 3rd grade prose. And yes, the theology is right, and I was wrong before, and that’s all that matters… But when Anglicans want to preserve “I acknowledge and bewail my manifold sins and wickedness, (BCP)” because they know that what’s coming is Haugen/Hass, it really isn’t necessarily a fight about the rightness of the Church, just the idea, THAT WE KNOW, that the rightness might be expressed in a way that can touch the human heart a tad more effectively. Call it cultural snottiness, which it is, but it really is hard to go from Shakespearean language to .. however you want to define the Novus Ordu. Viva il Papa!

  102. Deusdonat says:

    Trooper, you are right that it is cultural snottiness. But I think the vast majority of us are guilty of that in some form or another. But think on this: do you think an indigenous Anglican living in Kenya, Mauritius, Jamaica etc feels the same way about those same words you uttered? Or do they even fully understand those words? My take on it is they might get the general gist as one does a Shakespearean play. But since for them, the language was imported with the religion, it probably doesn’t mean as much as it does to you.

    This is probably to me the biggest proof of the fullness of truth in Catholicsm; the universality. And I’m not talking Novus Ordo. I’m speaking in the fact that regardless of whether Latin was used during a liturgy, for hundreds and hundreds of years, the Catholic church was truly universal in that IT spoke directly to the people/cultures/languages/social strati etc. While the liturgical language (Latin) was a constant, the prayers were always updated to reflect the vulgate of the times. This was true in English up until the reformation (witness the “Our Father” in Old, Middle and Modern English). So, while I can absolutely see your fondness and admiration for the language of the liturgy you found so inspiring, I also acknowledge that for other co-religionists it most likely meant little, due to the distance from their own vulgate.

  103. Mark M says:

    Sam:

    Equally, why should they leave their heritage behind? Some of the Anglican English-language traditions are vastly superior to the drivel ICEL peddles…