Slavishly accurate liturgical translations & frank commentary on Catholic issues - by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf o{]:¬)
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I had an email today that Oprah may be going to Medjugorje.
Okay. Rumor? Fact? Dunno.
But…
If Oprah converts to Catholicism because of Medjugorje, then I will have to rethink my position.
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
If Oprah “converts” to Catholicism because of Medjugorje, then I will be confirmed in my rejection of that ersatz apparition! ;-)
Comment by wchoag — 28 July 2010 @ 4:39 pm“If Oprah coverts to Catholicism because of Medjugorje…”
The question will be, what “brand” of Catholicism does she convert to? If it’s the Medjugorje-variety (which implies that all religions are respected equally in the eyes of God), then I think it’s clear who is utterly behind (beneath?) the “apparitions” there.
Comment by Jeffrey Pinyan — 28 July 2010 @ 4:41 pm“If Oprah coverts to Catholicism because of Medjugorje, then I will have to rethink my position.”
On Oprah or Catholicism?
Comment by boredoftheworld — 28 July 2010 @ 4:51 pmwell, who knows her motives? Even if it’s a cynical publicity move or a “let’s take the mickey” job, still, conversions have happened in similar circumstances. Oliver Goldsmith: “... and fools who came to laugh remained to pray”. And no, I’m not anything about whether it’s real or not, since I just don’t know, but it appears that genuine conversions have happened there.
Comment by jaykay — 28 July 2010 @ 5:03 pmIf Oprah became Catholic, I would ask her to buy all beautiful old Catholic churches that are now for sale,(and give one to me to live in).
Comment by susanna — 28 July 2010 @ 5:08 pmSusanna,
Comment by prairie — 28 July 2010 @ 5:26 pmWouldn’t you feel sacrilegious if you lived in a sacred building?
@Jeffrey—my question, precisely.
Comment by Jerry — 28 July 2010 @ 5:49 pmOnly if her conversion is not in the same style as Tony Blair.
Comment by Fr. Erik Richtsteig — 28 July 2010 @ 6:00 pmLet’s not count our pilgrimages before they start…. :)
It’s not a bad idea to pray for Oprah, of course. I still remember how strongly she was challenged and attracted by those Dominican ladies from Ann Arbor.
Comment by Suburbanbanshee — 28 July 2010 @ 6:06 pmHey, maybe somebody confused Mater Eucharistiae (or Mater Ecclesiae) with Medjugorje! ;)
Comment by Suburbanbanshee — 28 July 2010 @ 6:09 pmIf Oprah falls in love with Our Lady and Our Lady leads her to Jesus, then by whatever means that can happen…well, it works for me!
As far as to ‘what sort of Catholic’ that might be…many of the adherents to Medjugorje are some of the most faithfilled souls you will find anywhere. I am not a proponent of this event but my own reconversion was impacted by it.
Comment by JosephMary — 28 July 2010 @ 6:29 pmTony Blair also ‘converted.’
Comment by JonM — 28 July 2010 @ 6:51 pmNever. Never would I rethink my own particular stance on the Bosnia-Herzegovina anomaly. On the other hand I applaud any soul who converts for any reason. And I suggest that statements such as “adherents to Medjugorje are some of the most FAITH-filled souls you will find” is an oxymoron. But then I am deviating too much from the hope that such a popular figure will find Christ. As an old friend would say, “Go God!”.
Comment by Luke — 28 July 2010 @ 7:07 pmPray for Louis Bélanger.
Comment by Vincenzo — 28 July 2010 @ 7:10 pmWell, people have had conversion experiences after seeing a movie or reading a (non-Scriptural) book, and movies and “normal” books aren’t supernatural in origin, so I wouldn’t say that a conversion after Medjugorje would therefore make Medjugorje more likely to be a real Marian apparition. (On the other hand, if Oprah genuinely converted, and then used her money / fame / etc. to bring about even more conversions, it would be an amazing thing no matter what spurred the conversion!)
Comment by cheyan — 28 July 2010 @ 7:18 pmIf Oprah coverts to Catholicism because of Medjugorje, then I will ….. still not change my position on the site until the Church tells me what is the Truth. Actually, I may be even more worried.
Comment by TrueLiturgy — 28 July 2010 @ 7:26 pmSure this wasn’t reported in the Onion or some other equally reliable media outlet?
Comment by bookworm — 28 July 2010 @ 7:35 pmI never did think too much of her to begin with. Then I saw the clips of her interview with the Dominican nuns, and all that was coming out of her mouth was “And you don’t have sex? I can’t believe you don’t have sex.” She was drumming it into their heads about every 5 or 6 sentences.
Comment by gambletrainman — 28 July 2010 @ 8:10 pmIf she converted there all my skepticism would only be confirmed. Anything that says all religions are equal deserves Oprah.
Comment by cpaulitz — 28 July 2010 @ 9:14 pmHey, at least Oprah was abused and molested. She has an excuse. There’s plenty of people who can’t get past that concept who’ve never had any real reason to have deep issues on the topic. And she did get to other topics after a bit.
I don’t think the world of Oprah, either, but she’s not bad compared to some.
Comment by Suburbanbanshee — 28 July 2010 @ 9:16 pmAs other posters have alluded to, one must wonder what sort of “conversions are happening at Medjugorje. The “Gospa” is a chatty-Kathy, loving to praise other religions, while diminishing the religion Christ founded. Unlike, say St. Bernadette of Lourdes, the “seers” at Medjugorje are jet-setting millionaires. But the most troubling aspect—really the crux of the problem—is the slow watering-down of the Faith after 40,000 banal messages from the Gospa. In the muddle, Christ’s Sacrifice is all but lost.
Comment by Maltese — 28 July 2010 @ 9:25 pmThat mess cannot be condemned fast enough.
No, I mean Medjugorje.
(Actually, I think Oprah would be happy as a Catholic.)
Comment by chonak — 28 July 2010 @ 9:30 pmI know of two priests who had big conversion experiences from reading about Medjugorje. One is Fr. Donald Calloway, whose entertaining and incredible story can be bought on CD, and the other is Fr. Fernando Cuenca, who’s stationed at my own parish and is a great priest—I love his homilies. I believe God used Medjugorje for good in their lives, but that doesn’t make me believe in the apparitions. If people go on a pilgrimage to seek God with sincere hearts, He’ll probably grant them His grace even if the apparition they’re going to is false. In this world of ours there’ll always be truth and lies, good and evil, living side by side. (I first got that idea from these articles on the sex abuse scandals by Elizabeth Scalia and Jennifer Fulwiler.)
Comment by Rachel — 28 July 2010 @ 9:33 pmOprah and Medjugorje, both the work of the devil.
Comment by Central Valley — 28 July 2010 @ 9:43 pmRemember folks, God uses imperfect tools to create perfection
Comment by patrick_f — 28 July 2010 @ 10:04 pmFr. Malachi Martin and Medjugorie. Help! Many years ago, I thought I heard Fr. Martin was not convinced the apparitions were of God. He pointed out something peculiar about them that has caused me to question the validity as well. Can anyone confirm this position he held? It may have been when he was a guest on that crazy late night radio show.
Comment by Craig — 28 July 2010 @ 10:07 pmIf she goes its for publicity, sensationalism, and sales not for conversion.
Comment by EXCHIEF — 28 July 2010 @ 10:10 pmRemember that Our Lady said “do whatever He tells you.” In true apparitions she has told people to be obedient. Why, then, would anyone believe that she would speak against His successors?
Maybe you needed more time with Blessed Teresa’s relics.
Comment by Nan — 28 July 2010 @ 10:27 pm1. Fr. Malachi: “I think Medjugorje is a Satanic hoax.”
2. Father Malachi on the Art Bell show:
“I have a difficulty about Medjugorje. Since it has not been sanctioned by the Church, by Church authority, I can’t rely upon it. I can’t rely upon it.”
Comment by Vincenzo — 28 July 2010 @ 10:35 pmCraig:
Martin claimed that according to Irish legend, the devil can not disguise his cloven feet and the Blessed Mother’s feet are concealed in Medjugorje images/statues. At approved sites, the Faithful see her feet.
Doesn’t sound like an argument as strong against it as E. Michael Jones could make,
Comment by Tom Ryan — 28 July 2010 @ 10:40 pmhttp://tinyurl.com/EMJones-onMej-w-Pagan , but the statues bear witness to his strange claim:
When I was a teen and the reports first started, I wondered, and believed… but over the years, less and less so. Too many things that just don’t add up.
As to Miss Winfrey’s visit, I’d like it better if she went to Fatima… or Ann Arbor Michigan instead.
Comment by Sandra_in_Severn — 28 July 2010 @ 10:54 pmTom…thank you…that was the peculiarity I was referring to.
Slightly off-topic…apparently, the evil one is not permitted to appear as Our Lord Jesus with crucified hands. Saints have caught on to that deception.
Comment by Craig — 28 July 2010 @ 10:55 pmReminds me how I wonder about conversions to the Catholic Church that are based on attraction to non-Catholic practices at parishes. I know too many converts confused by what they think the Catholic Church is. [I know I know, there are confused life-long Catholics too].
In spite of all the bogus stuff going on, because of the many Masses, rosaries, and confessions there, it is still possible that there are conversions at Medjugorie. I distrust the whole set-up, but don’t discount the good works even of the misled.
This could be interesting if true.
Comment by Tina in Ashburn — 28 July 2010 @ 11:01 pmIf big O wanted to convert, she can contact her local parish priest. If she were to go to Medjugorje, she only play into the Medjugorje machine, She cwuld leave Medjugorje like the “visionaries” and pimp herself out to media outlest. My experience with the Medjugorje minions is their trips are all about them, everything is about them. Sounds like pride to me. I lean the way of Fr. Malachi Martin+, perhaps it’s the Irish in me.
Comment by Central Valley — 28 July 2010 @ 11:58 pmNo conversion at that place would convince me. It is a real hoax.
Comment by Jane — 29 July 2010 @ 12:21 amRemember, Ann Rice reverted and look at her. She’s as liberal a NCR ‘card-carrying’ Catholic. I follow her on Twitter and I am rather disappointed with her posts. My guess is that if Oprah was to ever convert she would gravitate to the far left.
Comment by mfranks — 29 July 2010 @ 12:24 am“(On the other hand, if Oprah genuinely converted, and then used her money / fame / etc. to bring about even more conversions, it would be an amazing thing no matter what spurred the conversion!)”
“Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord” [Zech. 4:6]
Please God, she is respoding to Our Lady’s call.
Comment by shadowlands — 29 July 2010 @ 1:52 amDoes anyone have a link to that Oprah show with the Dominican sisters? I’d love to see that.
Comment by Coffee Catholic — 29 July 2010 @ 3:24 amEver heard of Fr. Donald Calloway? More impressive than a possible conversion from Oprah.
Comment by mgseamanjr — 29 July 2010 @ 5:12 amThe conversions that are said to happen at Medjugorje must be taken seriously in the investigation, acc. to Rome’s document on the discernment of apparitions (Normae S. Congregationis).
I would like to see if this rumor of Oprah and Medjugorje is true and what happens if she goes.
Comment by KevinSymonds — 29 July 2010 @ 6:37 amDominican Sisters on Oprah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSa40PamMIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25sp-bEo6ng&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL0SQ6YRnAU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrdkyL1qEBc&feature=related
Comment by Teddy — 29 July 2010 @ 6:50 amCoffee Catholic – The link to the Oprah/Dominican Sisters video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSa40PamMIU
This is part 1, but the links to parts 2 and 3 can be found on the page as well.
Comment by jkm210 — 29 July 2010 @ 7:22 amAfter reading Kitty Kelley’s bio on Oprah i thinks (if Orprah DOES go) she is looking for something controvertial to exploit. If she had a genuine interest in apparitions/ Our Blessed Mother then Lourdes, Fatima, would be a legitimate destination. I do keep her in my prayers though.
Comment by teomatteo — 29 July 2010 @ 8:11 amRe: Anne Rice
Anne Rice has “quit” Christianity.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/idolchatter/2010/07/anne-rice-breaks-up-with-chris.html
Comment by KevinSymonds — 29 July 2010 @ 9:56 am“Never. Never would I rethink my own particular stance on the Bosnia-Herzegovina anomaly.”
“Oprah and Medjugorje, both the work of the devil.”
Funny. I thought only Holy Mother Church could judge whether an apparition is legitimate or not?
Comment by Geoffrey — 29 July 2010 @ 10:40 amWhat are some things that call into question Medjugorjie….????
I have a number of close friends who are great devotee’s of the apparition and I have read conflicting reports and I don’t know where to stand…..
Comment by br.david — 29 July 2010 @ 10:52 am@Geoffrey,
As I’m sure you know, the Church can’t rule authoritatively in the affirmative on any private revelations (only declaring that they are worthy of belief), however the Church can condemn some private revelations as not genuine or rule that they may be of demonic origin. The Church has just started its final commission on the worthiness of Medjugorje. Therefore, it’s fine for well-meaning Catholics to have differing opinions on its validity at this point. And even if it is determined to be worthy of belief, it is fine for someone to “never, never” believe in the apparitions. Such private revelations are thought to be an aid to salvation and perhaps be a channel of additional Grace based on timely matters (therefore not to be lightly dismissed), but the Sacraments of the Church and the protected Gospels and Scriptures are sufficient for salvation. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
@Brother David,
Two of the main objections that are often raised are the fact that many of those intimately involved with the goings-on at Medjugorje have threatened schism if the apparition is condemned. Another thing that is unprecedented is the fact that these private visitations of Mary are ongoing, meaning that if the Church examines and gives the events a pass, saying they cannot find a reason to reject them, then what happens when the messages they receive further conflict with Church teaching, obedience, etc. It’s essentially a carte blanche pass on doctrinal influence, if Medjugorje increases in popularity, and given the devotion demonstrated by its believers (let alone, imagine its influence if Oprah becomes deeply involved and convinced with it, would it get its own weekly or daily show on her new network if she strongly believes that it has a message for people?) it could cause much confusion among the faithful.
Comment by ghlad — 29 July 2010 @ 11:10 amSorry for being cynical, but if anything, Oprah is going to Medjugorje to convert Medjugorje to Oprah.
But; God does work in mystical ways, and if she really converts, that would be a thick spit in the face of the entire liberal, relativistic establishment of our current socio-political sad reality (which to this point, she was feverishly supporting and protecting), and perhaps the beginning of the end of it (That would be a big time Hallelujah ! But I wouldn’t even bet my beloved mother-in-law’s life on it )
For those of you who are less informed, my user name “HARPO”, is not only the name of Oprah’s production company, but it also reads “Oprah” backwards – not very creative, in my humble opinion, but one may see here the subtle manifestation of Ms. Winfrey’s alter ego, which, as we all know, maybe be very deceitful not only to the afflicted one, but to the rest of us as well.
So, make yourself a nice hot cup of java, turn your HD plasma on (so that you can see clearly if Oprah is showing her feet or not), settle comfortably in in your old recliner, and …. here comes New Oprah
!
(What a sad circus they make us watch, and what a pitiful clown this woman really is! ). Don’t get fooled by any of this, it is yet another voodoo/scientologic/atheistic abracadabra magic (actually I wanted to use the word “Black” – but in this particular instance it could really offend somebody out there) to make you feel as if you are the one who is wrong about almost everything, including the supposedly smaller packaging of Cheerios for which you really pay more than before… Sorry about the Cheerios – couldn’t resist it :)
Blessings to all of you, including the ones who are here on duty (if you know what I mean :)
Comment by Harpo — 29 July 2010 @ 2:35 pmThe responses to Fr.Z’s email read like a circus. If the supposed apparitions of the Gospa are a hoax, then the late Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar, perhaps John Paul II and, more recently, Cardinal Schonborn – among those far more learned and holier than I – certainly have joined the ranks of the fooled. Twenty years ago, I found the seers and Yelena to be gentle and kind non-publicity seekers. Some of the scientific “tests” speak for themselves. The site, even in the midst of the anniversary uproar, was conducive to prayer, faith, and healing. Let’s let the Church now decide on the authenticity. If “Yes,” then we all benefit. If “No,” then we all benefit as though it had been a “Yes.” I pray that none of the “children” lives a life like Melanie of LaSalette but finds the St. Bernadette and Lucia Santos in each of their hearts.
Pray! Pray! Pray!
AMDG (either way)
Comment by pH — 29 July 2010 @ 3:30 pmprairie: What would be sacreligious about living in a remodeled church? Where I live one has already been turned into a brew pub. I figure I’d be saving it from a fate like that because I would cherish it.
Comment by susanna — 29 July 2010 @ 4:31 pmMedjugorje has often left me with many questions, considering there is much controversy on both sides of this issue. Not satisfied with just hearing the two sides, I went to look into this myself on a pilgrimage I took to Medjugorje. I can now say with confidence that it has profoundly changed my spiritual life for the better and I now am discerning a vocation to the priesthood. I encourage those who are unsure of Medjugorje to go there, be open, and experience it that it may help decide for yourselves.
The visionaries are either seeing Our Lady or not. It is either legitimate or false. Though these ongoing apparitions are not officially approved by the Church, the Code of Canon Law allows for devotions by the faithful in the meantime. The official 1991 Zadar declaration states: “the gathering of the faithful from various parts of the world to Medjugorje, inspired by reasons of faith or other motives, require the pastoral attention and care”.
Furthermore, if these apparitions have been attended by millions of the faithful and have been ongoing for nearly THIRTY years while producing much bad fruit, I can’t see why Rome would not have protected the faithful by putting its foot down on Medjugorje by now.
And to those who say that the messages of Medjugorje imply that all religions are equal, allow me to refer you to these messages:
Oct. 1, 1981, a question is asked of Mary:
“Are all religions good?”
“Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the Commandments of God. They reject and disparage them”
and
1984-1985
“Tell the priest, tell everyone that it is you who are divided on earth. the Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics are equal before my son and me. Certainly, all religions are not equal, but all men are equal before God, as St. Paul says. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved, but it is necessary to respect the Commandments of God in following one’s conscience”
Ultimately, Rome will make a decision but for now one must decide for themselves. But keep in mind the words of Jesus:
Comment by Radagast the Brown — 29 July 2010 @ 4:44 pmMatthew 7:18 “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a evil tree bring forth good fruit”
The responses to Fr.Z’s email read like a circus. If the supposed apparitions of the Gospa are a hoax, then the late Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar, perhaps John Paul II and, more recently, Cardinal Schonborn – among those far more learned and holier than I – certainly have joined the ranks of the fooled. Twenty years ago, I found the seers and Yelena to be gentle and kind non-publicity seekers. Some of the scientific “tests” speak for themselves. The site, even in the midst of the anniversary uproar, was conducive to prayer, faith, and healing. Let’s let the Church now decide on the authenticity. If “Yes,” then we all benefit. If “No,” then we all benefit as though it had been a “Yes.” I pray that none of the “children” lives a life like Melanie of LaSalette but finds the St. Bernadette and Lucia Santos in each of their hearts.
Comment by pH
I assume you’re referring to Jelena Vasilj, whom I knew in Rome. She was nice, intelligent, and attractive.
Having said that, I don’t think the Medjugorje messages are of Divine origin.
Comment by robtbrown — 29 July 2010 @ 11:05 pm‘Let’s let the Church now decide on the authenticity. If “Yes,” then we all benefit. If “No,” then we all benefit as though it had been a “Yes.”’
Very well said!
Comment by Geoffrey — 30 July 2010 @ 12:05 amWhere the Magisterium has not rendered its judgment, there is room for personal opinion. This is the teaching of Pope Benedict XV.
Given the fact that the Magisterium has treated Medjugorje negatively in its official statements (the famous “non constat” of Zadar 1991), those who hold a negative or skeptical opinion are on safe ground.
Comment by KevinSymonds — 30 July 2010 @ 4:52 amI believe, but I wait on the final decision of Holy Mother Church. If Medugorje is from heaven, Our Lady is old enough and wise enough to defend herself and nobody can do anything to stop it. A good friend of mine who many of you know does not believe and who writes about it said to me that he does not believe, but hopes he is wrong.
Comment by ipadre — 30 July 2010 @ 10:28 am