ASK FATHER: All Souls Sunday – Gloria? Creed? What does the ‘Universal Ordo’ really say?

UPDATE:

I was sent this:

Dear Father,
regarding your post on All Souls Sunday, here’s from the Ordo Missae Celebrandae et Divini oficii persolvendi secundum Calendarium Romanum generale pro anno liturgico 2014-2015 iuxta editionem III typicam Missalis Romani:
November 2.
Viol. vel Nig.
IN COMMEMORATIONE OMNIUM FIDELIUM DEFUNCTORUM
LH propria huius diei.
Missa de Comm. omnium fidelium def., ut in Missali hac die, PE cum pf. def.
Lectiones seligendae sunt ex iis quae in lectionario defunctorum proponuntur.
Prohibentur omnes aliae celebrationes.
So, no mention of Gloria or Credo.

——-

ORIGINAL posted Oct 28, 2014 @ 17:27

From a priest…

QUAERITUR:

Would you be able to, and would you be so kind as to tell me what the universal Roman Ordo says about All Souls Day, this Sunday? Gloria or not. Creed or not.

First, I like the distinction of a) being able and b) being willing.

I don’t have a Universal ordo handy. Tomorrow, I’ll be at the church where we use the Extraordinary Form, so they won’t have one either.

I wrote about this the other day, when a reader asked:

The Canadian Bishops’ official Ordo clearly calls for the Gloria and the Creed on Sunday November 2. (Along with a note warning that the Sunday celebration shouldn’t be too penitential because it’s the Resurrection.)

But the Missal seems to say, pretty clearly, that the Gloria and Creed do not belong to the proper Mass for the day, and that Mass takes precedence of the Sunday (in the Ordinary form).

That said, what does the universal Ordo really say?

Anyone? I’ll bet one of you readers has a universal ordo at hand.

I don’t have one with me and I have been saying Mass here in Rome in the Extraordinary Form.

It is so strange to contemplate All Souls on a Sunday…

Also, I wrote about this issue the other day: HERE

Please share!

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32 Responses to ASK FATHER: All Souls Sunday – Gloria? Creed? What does the ‘Universal Ordo’ really say?

  1. iPadre says:

    Here is another weird conflict in the Ordinary Form. Because it is a Sunday, the focus should be the Risen Lord. The Extraordinary Form wisely transfers All Souls to Monday. Bugnignism.

  2. iPadre says:

    Here is another weird conflict in the Ordinary Form. Because it is a Sunday, the focus should be the Risen Lord. The Extraordinary Form wisely transfers All Souls to Monday. Bugnignism.

  3. pelerin says:

    I am surprised to learn that in the US All Souls day will be on Sunday. Here in Britain it will be on Monday ( according to my Catholic Diary). We will be able to attend a Missa Cantata for All Saints on Saturday followed by a NO on Sunday also for All Saints. I understand the EF on Sunday which I thought would be for All Souls will not in fact be All Souls. Confusion all round.

  4. Matt R says:

    Fr. Finelli, it is somewhat ironic that the reformers (and those who replaced them in the CDW and other offices) have allowed All Souls to stay on Sunday in the revised liturgy. Perhaps it is palatable because the Requiem Mass was very much dismantled and then partially put back together, without the Sequence, without the Tract except in Lent, & without the older rites at the coffin. I have heard white vestments were allowed at funerals in 1965 not only because of the ostensible opening to Oriental cultures where the symbolism is reversed, but to allow for the occasions where All Souls falls on a Sunday. I even read (though it’s not universally followed, as is the case this year in England and Wales) that All Saints is supposed to remain on Saturday and All Souls on Sunday, the latter being considered that important of a commemoration.

  5. All Saints in England & Wales is transferred to the Sunday for the Novus Ordo (that has happened here for some time when a Holyday of Obligation falls on a Saturday or Monday.)

    So, in the NO, All Souls is transferred to Monday. I assumed that All Souls would be on Sunday in the EF (if you could get a Sunday EF Mass) but would be delighted to find it’s actually the Monday after all…

  6. kat says:

    Don’t claim to know for sure, but in my life growing up with the EF I don’t believe a funeral requiem is even allowed on Sunday, let alone All Souls’ Day. We will sing a Requiem on Monday Nov 3, and All Saints’ on Saturday.

  7. HighMass says:

    From What I can remember in the Mass in the E.F. Requeim Masses were never said on Sunday….unless All Souls Day was on Sunday like this year.
    Also in the Requiem Mass no Gloria or Creed….

    Fr. Z we know you know this….but just putting in my two cents.

  8. HighMass says:

    Also Like iPadre says, I seem to remember All Souls Day being Transfered to Monday….a wise choice.

  9. Matt R says:

    No, one cannot sing a Requiem Mass on a Sunday, or say one or three for that matter. Hence it is moved to Monday, November 3.

    I suspect the Canadian Ordo is incorrect. It’s also odd that they instruct priests to keep it from being too penitential. What are the Sundays of Advent and especially those of Lent? There is no Gloria in both seasons and no Alleluia in the latter. I also find that All Souls Day in one respect is for mourning, for prayers accompanying mourning so that the deceased might be in Heaven forever, and to move our own souls to repentance (the Dies Irae is a huge part of this in the EF). I’m not really sure how it could be “worse” than in Lent. If so, then perhaps it should be moved to Monday in the OF. Although, I do think that, as much as I prefer black vestments in the tradition of the Roman Rite, priests should wear white or violet (though the latter is truly the color of penance…) this year because the feast is on Sunday. No rubric as far as I know prohibits black, but I think tradition suggests otherwise.

  10. Tantum Ergo says:

    Alas, tis true… All Souls Day in the EF is Monday, not Sunday.

  11. BillyT92679 says:

    One thing that I personally do like about the OF is the substitution of important feasts for the OT Sundays. Exultation of the Holy Cross and the Dedication of the Lateran Basilica are wonderful feasts. Candlemas too.

  12. BillyT92679 says:

    One thing that I personally do like about the OF is the substitution of important feasts for the OT Sundays. Exultation of the Holy Cross and the Dedication of the Lateran Basilica are wonderful feasts. Candlemas too.

  13. truthfinder says:

    I’m not surprised by the Canadian ordo saying not to make All Souls too penitential. I have heard priests here in Canada on a couple of All Souls basically say, the dead in purgatory are going to Heaven anyways so we should celebrate that too – essentially a second All Saints day. At that point I throw up my inner hands in disgust and find an EF.

  14. Cyrillus Mariae Cheung says:

    Dear Father:

    According to the Ordo(Novus et universalis), the indications do not include Gloria neither Credo. As you know, if the Mass has Gloria or Credo, it would be point out. However, no such words on the All Souls Day. Here is the text:

    (purple or black)
    31th Sunday of Ordinary Time. ALL SOULS (commemoration of all the Faithful departed)
    LH proper of this day
    Mass of the Commemoration of all the Faithful Departed, Preface of the Dead.

    Readings are to be selected from those set forth in the lectionary of the Masses for the Dead.
    In virtue of the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Benedict XV of 10 Aug 1915, all priests are permitted to celebrate 3 Masses today, provided these take place at different times and on condition, moreover, that while they may at their preference apply one of the Masses in favor of any person and accept for that Mass a stipend, they may not accept stipend for the second or for the third Mass, the second of which they are bound to apply respectively for all the faithful departed and the third for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff (IM 204d)

    No other celebrations are permitted.

  15. seattle_cdn says:

    hmmm when was the last time this happened? That All Souls fell on a Sunday?

  16. Geoffrey says:

    I don’t mind that All Souls is celebrated on Sunday in the Ordinary Form. Sadly, many Catholics do not know about Purgatory, and a Sunday would be a good day to reach as many as possible.

    What is really strange this rubric from The Liturgy of the Hours: “When November 2 occurs on a Sunday, even though the Mass for All Souls may be celebrated, the office is taken from the current Sunday in Ordinary Time; the Office for the Dead is not said. However, when Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer are celebrated with the people, these hours may be taken from the Office for the Dead”.

    So why is it okay to celebrate a Mass for the Dead on a Sunday in this one case and yet not the Office for the Dead… unless celebrated publicly? I am not one who opposes the Ordinary Form; I believe it has the potential to be beautiful when celebrated the way the Church wants it, but this All Souls on Sunday business is rather messy!

  17. Fr. Pius, OP says:

    I looked at the Universal Ordo for the ordinary form, and it does not list the Gloria for All Souls this Sunday, nor for that matter does it list the Credo as being said. Interestingly, the little Italian monthly booklet for Mass, Messa Meditazione, does not list the Gloria but it does indicate the Credo is said.

    [AH! Someone answered the question!]

  18. mpolo says:

    Would the current situation allow priests to invoke the “three Mass privelege” twice, assuming they celebrated according to the Ordinary Form on Sunday and the Extraordinary Form on Monday?

    I have to celebrate an OF All Souls in a parish on Sunday, and would celebrate the additional Masses later in the day. Apparently they can’t be EF, because there we have XXI post Pentecosten.

  19. David in T.O. says:

    Will someone please provide a link to the universal ordo?

    For those of us suffering in Canada, we no doubt do what the Ordo by the CCCB demands.

    It is absurd.

  20. Titus says:

    Would the current situation allow priests to invoke the “three Mass privelege” twice, assuming they celebrated according to the Ordinary Form on Sunday and the Extraordinary Form on Monday?

    Cyrillus Mariae Cheung appears to have put the whole ordo text in: it includes the three-Mass privilege. Is that an accurate transcription from the right book? Dunno.

  21. BillyT: “One thing that I personally do like about the OF is the substitution of important feasts for the OT Sundays. Exultation of the Holy Cross and the Dedication of the Lateran Basilica are wonderful feasts.”

    This is the same in the EF, where class 1 feasts including those you mention take precedence over the Sundays after Pentecost (corresponding to OT Sundays in the OF), which are class 2 feasts.

  22. Fr. Pius, OP says:

    Here’s another question. May one say the three Masses for All Souls in the Ordinary Form on Sunday and three additional in the Extraordinary Form (or the Ordinary Form of the Dominican Rite!) on Monday?

  23. JamesM says:

    In our parish we have a sung Mass in the EF on Saturday for All Saints.

    We have a Low Mass in the EF on Sunday. This follows two OF Masses earlier in the day. The two OF Masses will both celebrate the Feast of All Saints.

    My Parish Priest and I have been discussing whether (here in the UK) it would be licit to celebrate the Low Mass in the EF for All Souls having celebrated All Saints on the previous day. Our local Ordo suggests we have to celebrate the Sunday. I would be very grateful for any authoritative source to give an answer either way.

  24. Random Friar says:

    The Liturgy of the Hours is even more confusing.

    Saturday: All Saints’, including Evening Prayer II on Saturday evening, though you would be celebrating the Vigil Mass as All Souls’.

    Sunday: It’s the 31st Sunday of OT, not All Souls’ or Office for the Dead… unless you celebrate the LOTH in public.

  25. Fr. Pius, OP says:

    OK, for those looking for the relevant pages on-line, I have posted them on my blog here: ubispiritus.blogspot.com/2014/10/when-all-souls-day-falls-on-sunday.html

    I do think GIRM 53 & 68 could bear an interpretation permitting the Gloria and Creed on a solemn celebration of All Souls.

  26. Matt R says:

    JamesM, follow the Ordo for the Extraordinary Form. The liturgical law governing the 1962 calendar is not the same as for the Ordinary Form, and so All Souls may not be celebrated on Sunday, instead being translated to Monday, November 3. The Sunday after Pentecost is celebrated.

    Fr. Pius, I could see an argument for the Credo, it being a Sunday, but I would think one has lost liturgical sense to include a Gloria on All Souls Day… I also don’t understand the LH being “proper to the day,” yet it is interpreted as being that of Sunday in private. I would have interpreted that as the day being November 2 and not the XXXI Sunday.

  27. wolfeken says:

    Since commenters here are referencing the traditional Latin Mass, here are the rubrics for the TLM for All Souls’ Day, according to the 1960 Codex Rubricarum —

    Chapter 3, “Sundays”, number 16b: “Sunday II class takes precedence over All Souls’ Day. ”

    Chapter 11, “Precedence in Liturgical Days”, the eighth day “arranged according to order of precedents” under “Liturgical days I class”, number 91: “All Souls’ Day, which, however, gives place to an occuring Sunday.”

    Chapter 13, “The Accidental Occurence and Transfer of Liturgical Days”, number 96b: “When All Souls’ Day falls on a Sunday, it is transfered, as to its proper place, to the Monday following.”

    http://maternalheart.org/library/1962rubrics.pdf

  28. akp1 says:

    There is a copy of a letter from PCED in 2008 when All Souls fell on a Sunday – giving permission in certain circumstances to celebrate All Souls in the EF on the Sunday. Just to mix things up a bit more.

  29. Supertradmum says:

    All Saints in Malta is being celebrated on the Saturday, but not a required holy day of obligation anymore in Malta, apparently, as announced from the pulpit yesterday. I did check this out and it is no longer a holy day of obligation here.

    However, All Souls is on the Sunday, and as there is no TLM in Malta, (never has been except once in a while for special visiting bishops), the NO in Latin at the Co-Cathedral will be said by the apostolic administrator of the diocese, Mgr. Charles J. Scicluna, as there is no bishop at this time. I shall attend and see if there is a Gloria and Creed.

    In 2011, I attended a TLM All Soul’s Day said by a visiting bishop, with permission of the then bishop. I have visited Malta four times now and I have only attended two TLMS, which were special. I hope the new bishop, whoever he is, changed this ban.

  30. Supertradmum says:

    opps changes not changed in last comment…

  31. Supertradmum says:

    Follow up. Creed yes, Gloria no today at the Cathedral in Malta.

    Sadly, because the apostolic administrator said both yesterday and today’s Masses, neither were in Latin. This happens every time and did when the now ex-bishop said the usual NO Latin Mass. Why they drop it, I do not know.

  32. Justin_Kolodziej says:

    The parishes around here are hardly traditional, but I don’t think we sang the Gloria Sunday. Instead of the Creed we had a renewal of the Baptismal promises?!