UPDATE 28 Jan 2008 – 20:55 GMT:
Be sure to read this disclaimer I received from the business manager at the FSSP seminary where they are offering to train priests in how to say the TLM. It is interesting.
______________________
I got this note from someone at Franciscan University at Steubenville. It is from the school newspaper.
My emphases and comments.
Students turn out for local Latin Mass
by Kristi Moore, Assistant EditorAlthough many consider it ancient and out-dated, an unanticipated [Not unexpected by those who know better…] young, enthusiastic crowd is filling the pews of Catholic churches for the traditional Latin Mass.
The trend has proven both national and local, as an estimated 250 Franciscan University students showed up to celebrate [participate at] the traditional Latin, or Tridentine, Mass at St. Peter’s Roman Catholic Church in Steubenville on Sunday.
"I think it’s because there is a hunger for, first of all, greater reverence at Mass," said Mark Spencer, the president of the Dom Gueranger Society on campus. "There’s an excitement about all things Catholic and a desire to enter into a sacred tradition." [Remember that Pope Benedict is working to reinvigorate our Catholic identity.]
The Latin Mass [Oppps…. bad terminology here, but let’s go on.] was put on tight restrictions a few years after the Second Vatican Council introduced the "Novus Ordo," or the new order Mass, which is said in the vernacular. [You see why I insist that saying "the Latin Mass" is to strumble into error? The Novus Ordo is, can be, should be, in the Latin language. Latin is the language of our Rite.]
But last summer [last autumn… the document was released in July but it went into effect in September.], Pope Benedict XVI eased the 40-year-old restrictions on the Tridentine Mass, which was codified at the Council of Trent in 1570, after which it is named.
In the Latin Mass, the priest faces east, the traditional direction of prayer, towards the tabernacle. [Okay… not bad, provided there is a tabernacle. It would have been better to emphasize the Crucifix, rather than the tabernacle.] He prays in Latin, much of it in a whisper, while readings from Scripture and the homily are in the vernacular. A missal in Latin and English allows parishioners to follow along.
All of these elements create a solemn atmosphere that is "conducive to properly worshipping [sic] God," said Fr. Paul Scalia, 37, the son of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Scalia celebrates the Tridentine Mass at St. Rita Church in Alexandria, Va.
Despite the noticeable differences, Monsignor George Yontz asked all in attendance at St. Peter’s to avoid treating the rite as a "museum piece." Instead, he said, the Mass –no matter what form– is sacred and a reminder of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. [Noooo…. it IS Jesus Sacrifice on the Cross, sacramentally renewed and made present again.] Nevertheless, some believe that the Latin Mass in particular, "helps younger people in their 20s and 30s who have grown up in a culture that lacks stability and orthodoxy see something larger then themselves: the glory of God," said Geoffrey Coleman of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter’s Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary in, Neb.,[sic] which is responsible for thousands [Really? Thousands?] of Latin Mass training sessions across the country [sic].
Spencer hopes that the two forms of the Mass can "influence each other so that sometime down the line we can have on unified liturgy."
Despite the significant turnout by Franciscan students at the Tridentine Mass on Sunday, the University has yet to come to a conclusion about having the Mass on campus. [Hmmm… I was under the impression that the University had in fact decided this. They decided against celebrations for the students making their legitimate requests. Instead they decided that the students would have to go to St. Peter’s Church, the regional parish. Am I missing something? Did the administration actually leave this matter open?] The Dom Gueranger Society has been working towards the celebration of the Latin Mass on campus and has said that there is decent support for the Mass among the administration and the student body.
"It’s likely to happen, just maybe not this semester," said Spencer.
All in all a positive article, though there are some points the writer must get clear for future reports.
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not to be too picayune, but Summorum pontificum actually did go into effect last summer – a full week before the autumnal equinox.
Hey canonists have to split hairs, or we don’t get that big bonus check from the Vatican every year :)
The TORs are touchy about liturgy – it’s not just the old rite, it’s the Byzantine rite as well.
The TORs are touchy about liturgy – it’s not just the old rite, it’s the Byzantine rite as well.
Fr Z wrote: Hmmm… I was under the impression that the University had in fact decided this…Am I missing something?
You are merely missing/forgetting the wonderful resilience of the young Catholics who are no longer willing to accept “no” as the final answer!
Father, I think you’re reacting too much! You’re so irrational and one-sided in your perspective. Look at the whole issue, ok! I think you need to review your liturgical history and tradition, you’re out of your mind! Look! Before the Latin Rite of the Mass came in the Council of Trent, there were diverse RITES OF CELEBRATING THE EUCHARIST!!!!! THERE IS THE AMBROSIAN RITE FOR EXAMPLE, THE MOZARABIC RITE TO MENTION ANOTHER.Even the CHALDAIC RITE IN NOW MODERN IRAQ. WHY SINGLE OUT LATIN RITE ONLY? Do you recall that these RITES existed before the uniformed LATIN RITE FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH? The Council of Trent IMPOSED A UNIFORMED AND STIFLING RITE OF THE MASS!!!! Why? Because Catholic who are not Romans cannot understand and speak LATIN!Asians and Africans have their own Languages and dialects so with Europe! What Trent did was to imposed STIFLING UNIFORMITY OF LATIN RITE OF MASS because there were already other rites existing. Review your Liturgical History and also your Church History, Father! OK! Besides read also, Evangelii Nuntiandi concerning the preaching of the Gospel in the Modern times…
I hope this turns into a PR disaster for the university, that is the only way that they will acquiesce to student requests for a TLM.
By the way, I was at the mass offered at St. Peter this past Sunday. The church was so packed that many families who normally attend St. Peter had to stand in the vestibule or sit in the choir loft. The 250 extra students made it very difficult for the regular parishioners to even get a seat. I heard many, many complaints about FUS not addressing the spiritual needs of their own students.
Experiencing the second Traditional Latin Mass at St. Peter’s Sunday, I have to express another grateful public “thank you” to Msgr.Yontz, the choir, and everyone involved. I was amazed at the number of communicants, they just kept coming and coming and coming, it seemed that when the line should have been ending it was more like it was just beginning, I don’t know where everyone was coming from but it was beautiful! Another thing I noticed was that upwards of seventy percent of the people there were under thirty. Is there a demand for the Latin Liturgy, I think so!! Thanks again Monsignor.
“I hope this turns into a PR disaster for the university, that is the only way that they will acquiesce to student requests for a TLM.”
This is absolutely not correct. What will best influence the powers that be is if they see Christian charity flowing forth from the students, and they become convinced that the students desire the older form to grow in holiness.
Actually, Fr. Z., things are incredibly positive here at Franciscan. There had once been some folks who were so vocal and rude about this that they ahd turned off a lot of people in high places. But right now most people in high places seem to be very positive toward the prospect of the Traditional Ordo of the Mass. Also as those who had previously been rubbed the wrong way see how positive this is in the lives of many students, they are slowly changing their minds. I can’t say much of what’s going on here. The University likes to keep it under wraps, and I don’t officially “know” a lot of what I know (if you get my meaning), but I will say that your prayers and charitable encouragement is really paying off. If there seems to be a bit of bitterness on the part of some students, remember most students are out of the loop on what’s really going on, and some people are just too bitter, to be honest.
There’s still a lot of ignorance on campus, though. Please pray especially for the events that the Dom Gueranger society may be able to sponsor. It’s an exciting time to be a Franciscan Student. I thank God that things are happening where that, 3 years ago, I thought to be impossible.
“I hope this turns into a PR disaster for the university, that is the only way that they will acquiesce to student requests for a TLM.”
This is absolutely not correct. What will best influence the powers that be is if they see Christian charity flowing forth from the students, and they become convinced that the students desire the older form to grow in holiness. Actually, let’s put it this way: this already *has* been a public relations disaster for the university. Trying to keep it as one would, in my opinion, be counterproductive. It would indicate that we don’t actually have Christian Charity. Those who love the Tridentine Mass love it because it increases virtue in us and unites us to Jesus. If the University understood this, they’d give it to us in a second. I’m absolutely convinced of that.
Actually, Fr. Z., things are incredibly positive here at Franciscan. There had once been some folks who were so vocal and rude about this that they ahd turned off a lot of people in high places. But right now most people in high places seem to be very positive toward the prospect of the Traditional Ordo of the Mass. Also as those who had previously been rubbed the wrong way see how positive this is in the lives of many students, they are slowly changing their minds. I can’t say much of what’s going on here. The University likes to keep it under wraps, and I don’t officially “know” a lot of what I know (if you get my meaning), but I will say that your prayers and charitable encouragement is really paying off. If there seems to be a bit of bitterness on the part of some students, remember most students are out of the loop on what’s really going on, and some people are just too bitter, to be honest.
There’s still a lot of ignorance on campus, though. Please pray especially for the events that the Dom Gueranger society may be able to sponsor. It’s an exciting time to be a Franciscan Student. I thank God that things are happening where that, 3 years ago, I thought to be impossible.
Considering this is a student reporter at a student paper, I think that we can overlook the errors in it: they are identical to those found in professional journalism and among others who don’t read WDTPRS. And she knows better than to say “with his back to the people” (unlike the NYTimes)
This seems to me a very significant piece. There is a large organized group of students who want the E.F. The author is clearly on the side of those students. It appeared without censorship in the college paper. Now the ball is in the administration’s court. This is nothing going to go away.
totustuusmaria: I hope this turns into a PR disaster for the university, that is the only way that they will acquiesce to student requests for a TLM.
We don’t want “disaster” for anyone, just a more generous spirit.
Perhaps “disaster” is too strong of a word. But it seems that there was only a “change of heart” when Catholic bloggers started airing FUS’s response to SP. The university now thinks it is just peachy to bus us poor children out of the ghetto to mass. Perhaps more bad press will cause another “change of heart” and offer a TLM on campus instead of making St Peter’s parishioners stand in the vestibule.
I have a friend at Steubenville who says that this church where they have the Extraordinary Form is really close to campus (walking distance), and that it is much prettier and better suited for the Extraordinary Form than Steubie’s regular chapel (the facade of which looks kinda like a can opener, I think). Just thought I’d mention it…
FUS Student, there is nothing wrong with being persistent — but prudence and charity are key here.
The decision makers are probably watching very carefully the fruits from the masses at St. Peter’s. I think it will take some more patience on the part of students, however, in the meantime you have a monthly EF Mass in one of the most beautiful parish Churches that I have seen. Look how far things have come in just 4 months. Give it another 6 months and you will see more development.
It is a 1.5 mile (very hilly) walk through a very rough part of town. I am a pretty big guy and I am afraid of walking downtown.
Father Z.
Please not that I didn’t say that above quotation, nor do I think that. Also sorry for the double post. The internet at FUS isn’t working well right now.
As a former student, while I agree that the aesthetics of St. Peter is much more conducive to the EF than the FUS chapel, the walk from campus to St. Peter’s is not convenient at all, it is quite a hike.
I’m very happy that St. Peter’s is offering the Mass. I helped encourage people to go to it. I myself went. I’m even signed up for schola for it. God Bless Mgsr Yontz for doing this when I can’t be sure that he has any personal attachment to the form of the liturgy. I make sure to thank him and to not criticise too deeply the honest mistakes that are made because he doesn’t *have* to be doing this at all.
It’s true that Saint Peter’s is much more beautiful than Christ the King Chapel. It’s also true that the high altar there is very nice. However, let’s remember that it is its own parish, it’s a bit of walk through bad neighborhoods, and the mass is currently only once a month. I think the administration is starting to see the value to having this Mass on campus. I’m just so thankful for all the wonderful things happening and all the interest in this around campus and the world.
Slightly off topic, but having read some stuff by Fr. Paul Scalia, I suspect he may be one of the main authors behind Diogenes at CWNews.com (Phil Lawler has stated there are several persons behind the Uncle Di personality).
Thanks so much for the critique, Father!
To answer Father’s question about the administration’s plans regarding whether to bring this Mass to the on-campus chapel, I seem to recall reading in their official statement that they are quite open to doing so if people showed enough support, but first wanted to gauge how many would actually go (hence starting with just St. Peter’s).
I don’t think the administration changed it’s policy when pressured. I think they’re just suffering from a bit of sloppiness and inefficiency. It would be a sufficient explanation as far as I know of (and I have kept up well enough with the actual discussion right here), for one thing, and I’m pretty sure it’s more charitable to think they are sloppy than dishonest if it comes down to those two. As an example of sloppiness that I think is fairly hard to dismiss, the Mass was worked out well Sunday and transportation was provided to it, but then of all things to happen they didn’t provide transportation back.
I’m an eyewitness to this goofup: I was one of the students left waiting. One of us called multiple times only to learn that they might be sending transportation or might not! After at least half an hour we were lucky enough to be noticed by people with several spare seats, otherwise we might have had to walk back. Frankly, walking back would not have been good if not because of the neighboorhood then because of the cold (we were bundled up, but not well enough to walk a mile in that weather).
As far as everything goes, is there need for improvement? Certainly. Is there reason to condemn them or to assume we have to practically blackmail them (via scandal) into it? If it turns out that’s what has to be done, you may try it, but I don’t think it should be risked unless we see quite conclusively that it is necessary–which it isn’t yet. Christ said His Truth would be a source of division in the world, but He never said we had to divide ourselves for fear that not all pf us held His Truth well enough — He urged us to strengthen each other in His Truth if some appear to be weak in it, didn’t He?
Regarding safety, my then girlfriend (now wife) and a friend of hers were robbed while walking down the hill towards downtown. Granted it was almost 20 years ago, and I am sure that they have beefed up security with the new dorms off of the main campus. But still…it is a rough, largely impoverished downtown area.
I think that this represents a true movement of the Holy Spirit in the Latin Church. I think the administration needs to comes to terms with this and understand that they can either help shepherd it so that it develops along the trajectory of a proper Christian spirit, or they can further contribute to a “bunker” or “persecuted minority” mindset that will only be divisive and cause spiritual harm, especially when harnassed to natural adolescent idealism and rebellion.
Some of the off-putting behavior alluded to above of a few student advocates for the Tridentine Mass is illustrative of this mindset. There is already too much of this associated with the Tridentine movement, and quite frankly I think it contributes to its inability to “mainstream” in the Latin Church here in America. Franciscan University, with its proper focus on Vatican II and implementing the authentic values, teachings and spirit of the Council in continuity with the great Catholic Tradition is well positioned to help guide the next generation of this movement.
Regarding the article, I believe it is largely positive towards the Tridentine Mass. Perhaps, Father Z, you should publish a list of “Fr. Z’s Tridentine Mass Tips for Journalists” so that they can write knowledgably on this topic?
In ICXC,
Gordo
Regarding the bunker mindset that Gordo mentions, an op-ed piece in Le Figaro
last year addressed the same problem. Francophones will find this of interest.
The phrase ‘esprit de chapelle’ is apt.
Here is the pertinent passage, followed by the whole column:
“Si les catholiques attachés aux anciennes formes liturgiques sont enfin
reconnus comme des membres de l’Église à part entière, ils doivent eux-mêmes
chasser tout esprit de chapelle et s’engager sans complexe dans la vie des
diocèses.”
Le Figaro
Avec la messe en latin on peut apaiser l’Église
par TRP Dom Antoine Forgeot, TRP Dom Louis-Marie, Christophe
Geffroy, Abbé de Notre-Dame de Fontgombault, Abbé de Sainte-
Madeleine du Barroux, Directeur de la Nef.
Publié le 13 juillet 2007
Pourquoi Benoît XVI a-t-il publié un Motu proprio libéralisant
l’usage du missel tridentin ? Il en donne lui-même la raison dans sa
lettre aux évêques : « Il s’agit de parvenir à une réconciliation
interne au sein de l’Église. » Ce faisant, il ne vise pas
prioritairement les prêtres et fidèles qui ont suivi Mgr Lefebvre
dans sa rupture avec le Siège romain en 1988. Il vise plus
généralement la paix liturgique et il incite aussi à célébrer
fidèlement selon les prescriptions le nouveau missel.
Il serait en effet absurde de se voiler la face comme s’il n’y avait
eu aucun problème liturgique depuis la réforme de 1970, comme si les
fidèles attachés aux anciennes formes liturgiques n’étaient que de
vieux retardataires incapables de s’adapter à une liturgie plus
moderne. Si tel avait été le cas, il n’y aurait pas autant de jeunes
attachés à cette liturgie ancienne réputée incompréhensible, mais
qui, transmettant ce qui est avant tout un mystère, parle le langage
de l’âme accessible même à ceux qui ignorent le latin. Pour Benoît
XVI, il n’y a ni « rupture » ni « contradiction » entre les deux
missels : « L’histoire de la liturgie est faite de croissance et de
progrès, jamais de rupture », écrit-il dans sa lettre aux évêques.
C’est contre l’esprit de la « table rase », contraire à la notion
même de tradition si chère à l’Église, que s’élève le Pape. Et c’est
précisément parce qu’il n’y a pas de rupture que Benoît XVI peut
affirmer en toute crédibilité que la permanence de l’ancien missel
ne signifie en aucune façon une quelconque remise en cause de
l’autorité du concile Vatican II et de la réforme liturgique du pape
Paul VI. Nous pouvons témoigner que l’immense majorité des prêtres
et fidèles qui sont attachés à l’ancien missel en pleine communion
avec l’Église – particulièrement chez les jeunes qui n’ont connu ni
Vatican II ni la réforme de 1970 -, reconnaissent sans l’ombre d’un
doute cette autorité.
Dans sa lettre aux évêques, le Saint-Père répond à une autre crainte
exprimée par les évêques consultés : « Qu’une plus large possibilité
d’utiliser le missel de 1962 puisse porter à des désordres, voire à
des fractures dans les communautés paroissiales. » Benoît XVI ne
juge pas cette crainte fondée. L’expérience montre que dans tous les
diocèses où le Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei de 1988 a été appliqué «
généreusement » comme Jean-Paul II le demandait, il n’y a eu ni
désordres ni divisions. Et plus l’accueil a été généreux, plus
l’intégration dans la vie du diocèse a été facile. Des cas de
dissension se sont manifestés là où la demande des fidèles a été
ignorée.
Sans doute ce nouveau Motu proprio – acte dont on mesurera
l’importance dans quelques années – occasionnera-t-il ici ou là
d’inévitables tensions. Il n’en demeure pas moins fondamentalement
un appel pressant à la paix, à la reconnaissance de l’autre dans ses
différences légitimes.
Là encore, le Pape nous y invite fortement : « Les deux formes
d’usage du rite romain peuvent s’enrichir réciproquement. » Certes,
le Motu proprio marque une reconnaissance bienvenue pour un missel «
jamais abrogé ». Les efforts attendus de communion, néanmoins, ne
peuvent être à sens unique. Si les catholiques attachés aux
anciennes formes liturgiques sont enfin reconnus comme des membres
de l’Église à part entière, ils doivent eux-mêmes chasser tout
esprit de chapelle et s’engager sans complexe dans la vie des
diocèses.
Pour qu’une paix soit profonde, il faut que chacun fasse, sans
arrière-pensées un pas vers l’autre. La paix liturgique retrouvée,
les catholiques pourront mieux unir leurs efforts pour ce qui est la
priorité première de l’Église aujourd’hui : la nouvelle
évangélisation.
Toucher les coeurs de ces foules immenses qui ignorent combien Dieu
les aime – et l’expérience montre que la liturgie traditionnelle a
une dimension missionnaire auprès de certaines âmes.
Dans cette tâche immense, les deux formes liturgiques du rite romain
ont chacune un rôle conformément à la parole du Christ : « Il y a
des demeures nombreuses dans la maison de mon Père » (Jean, 14, 2).
La Nef publiera en septembre un dossier spécial sur la question que
l’on peut recevoir sur simple demande : La Nef, 2, cour des Coulons,
78810 Feucherolles, http://www.lanef.net ou lanef@…
http://www.lefigaro.fr/debats/20070713.FIG000000029_avec_la_messe_en_
latin_on_peut_apaiser_l_eglise.html
My understanding is that the university would be providing a shuttle for students interested in going to the monthly celebration of the Extraordinary form at St. Peters so they wouldn’t have to walk. (Although I guess they “forgot” for the first EF mass in November) I made the hike to St. Pete’s many times as a student, and I too will attest, big hills, rough people, and the chilly bite of a January morning aren’t exactly pleasant.
I wanted to address one thing Fr. Z mentioned in his comments though. He was wondering as to whether or not the University had put a final NO on the EF in Christ the King Chapel. From what I’ve been told by friends at the university, the university’s “interpretation” of the motu proprio was that it was to be applied to parishes, not chapels within a parish.(Tell that to Notre Dame and Ave Maria, it doesn’t seem to be stopping them.) FUS was using the excuse that the parish that they are in (St. Peter’s) is indeed celebrating the EF thus freeing them from any responsibility to take the requests any further.
However, with the reports of the numbers at last weekend’s EF mass at St. Peter’s I think the University seriously needs to as another blogger put it “address the spiritual needs of their students.” Based upon the university’s logic for not having the EF as well I am forced to ask will all FUS students need to attend holy week liturgies at St. Peter’s as well? I believe their is only to be one Holy Thursday Mass, One Good Friday Liturgy, and One Easter Vigil, PER PARISH, and FUS is not a parish. Yet this doesn’t seem to stop them during holy week.
Could this just be yet another concession that traditional minded Catholics have to make??
There is something funky about (some) Franciscans. Recently they took over the Catholic chaplaincy in a military hospital where I work. Both priests I met were from the same mold, I swear. The homilies I have heard so far were quite solid. But the liturgy… It’s not a clown-fest, not at all – “just” some textual adlibs, mandatory scanning motion during elevation, and this obsessive gazing at the congregants. I really mean it, they have obsessive need of eye contact with the spectators (that would be a fitting word here). Overall sense of “coolness” is pervasive.
Plus, a strange penchant to hearing confessions while sitting face to face.
(I can’t resist to roll my eyes every time I think about all that)
It is ironic that Franciscan missionaries were largely responsible for the spread of the Roman Missal in Europe. . . .
Marcin–yup that if FUS, doctrinally orthodox but liturgically insane. One Franciscan (who isn’t at FUS anymore) once said just before consecration of the host, “This is where the rubber meets the road!” I guess he wanted to emphasize how important this moment in the liturgy is.
My goodness, a bit harsh on this reporter, no? She is a solid (convert) girl who wrote this — https://wdtprs.com/2007/10/washington-times-the-older-mass-for-the-younger-congregation/ — after hearing her first traditional Mass here in Washington, D.C.
Also, both 7 July and 14 September are in the summer season.
FUS Student wrote:
“yup that if FUS, doctrinally orthodox but liturgically insane”
I don’t think that is an entirely accurate description. Yes – there are rare moments of temporary insanity, but by and large it is better than many average RC parishes.
Problems do arise when they try to integrate the FOP practices into the mass.
God bless,
Gordo
Gordo,
Every time I have been to mass on campus (which is thankfully seldom) the liturgy looks just like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=naH8r3b7zAg
Does that even look Catholic to you? Looks more like an evangelical hoedown to me.
Marcin:
Your experience corresponds with what’s going on on campus here. That’s one of the reasons I want the Dom Gueranger society to work toward occasional ad orientem NO masses as well as the TLM on campus. The continual scanning of the congregation frusterates me to no end when I assist at Masses on campus. Also they ad-lib certain parts and occasionally change the words of certain parts (most notably the Psalm-Response, Alleluia, Memorial Acclamation, Agnus Dei, and Ecce Agnus Dei). Things aren’t terrible here by any means, they’re just very loose. There isn’t much respect for the binding nature of the rubrics, and even less respect for the guidance of tradition. But there really isn’t any ill will. I’m convinced it’s just multiple level ignorance which can be gradually overcome.
Thanks again to everyone who’s taken an interest in this.
Those people waving around palm leaves and carrying those red balls remind me on an infant I saw playing around with a rosary at Eucharistic adoration recently… waving it back and forth and listening to it jingle.
It’s fine for someone who’s a few months old, but it’s astonishingly stupid behavior for an adult…
As a big fan of Fr. Paul Scalia, I would love to suggest to writers to stop qualifying him by listing his parentage every time he is mentioned. He is his own man, and his work should be respected on its own, without tying the political implications that naturally arise when he is tied to his father.
Last I heard (chapel bulletin Oct. 28th followed by the Troubadour Nov. 15th, if anyone wants to hunt them down) the statement was that the parish priest is the one “who is to accede to the requests” for the old form, but not that the administration actually claimed it must be celebrated at the parish church and not a chapel within the parish. Unless the Troubadour grossly misquoted Fr. Henry, the president of the university, he specifically said that “This is a first step in an unfolding response as the university…seeks to develop proper and ordered ways to implement the motu proprio.” Now, while one could argue as to whether the “proper and ordered” bit refers to having to celebrate it at the main church, you’d have to explain what more can be implemented about it if not that it be offered on campus, what further steps can unfold, etc. Unless you just want to call him a liar, which works too, but I still think is uncharitable because other explanations are still sufficient as regretable as they may be.
By the way, I find that last comment on the apparent childishness of waving the palm leaves and such to be rather interesting, actually. I’m not saying right off the bat that I think such behavior is entirely childlike anyway or that childlike behavior is necessarily good, but I think it would be fascinating to discuss it as regards Christ’s comment that “Unless you turn and become as one of these little ones…” Maybe they’re entirely different, but if so it would be good to learn precisely how.
Oh, and believe me, the liturgy here generally doesn’t live up to the chatechesis on everything else, but I have had the poor fortune to be places that look almost further from our Mass than our Mass is from Tradition. I’m all for improvement, but I am willing to be patient and to try to interpret things as charitably as possible. I don’t think anything else is likely to be any more good than harm in this case.
FUS student wrote:
“Every time I have been to mass on campus (which is thankfully seldom) the liturgy looks just like this…”
Come now – we both know that “evangelical hoedown” is not the standard for every Mass on campus.
Yes, there are some. But my family and I visited two years ago and there was Mass a beautifully celebrated (and well attended) liturgy. I think you are exaggerating a bit.
But the video is agreeably obnoxious…except for the sterling fact that we have several hundred college students (over a thousand perhaps?) who are spending Friday, Saturday and Sunday celebrating the death, burial and Resurrection of Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Has there been any move to follow both Vatican II and Pope Benedict’s recommendation that Gregorian be given pride of place in the Latin Church’s liturgies? Part of me wonders if having a
Gregorian Schola that is well practiced and prepared might not help reduce the desire for FOP style Masses (“Festival of Praise”). My own sense is that the Gregorian tradition is so profoundly beautiful and rich, students will flock to it. And I personally would rather “overwhelm ‘evil’ with an abudance of good”.
God bless,
Gordo
Gordo,
You must have a different sense of beauty that I. Sure that video shows the full flowering of Franciscan liturgical silliness, but every mass I have been to on campus was no different than Evangelical church services I have attended. All the songs are the full-band, sentimental Protestant slop you would hear at any mega-church. There is a schola on campus, but they are relegated to a mid-week mass once a month.
FUS masses are simply awful and make blazingly clear the “hermeneutic of rupture” in the Roman liturgy.
And Gordo, yes it is great that student spend three days worshipping God. However, so do Protestants, and just because they show up to church doesn’t make their theology or liturgy correct.
FUS Student,
The Mass we attended was an early morning service. There was one cantor and a guitarist, I believe, and the two priests concelebrating were very reverent. It was very much like any other Mass I have attended at a local Latin Catholic parish, except for the large number of young people in attendance. The music was more quiet and reflective…perhaps it was the hour?(BC…”Before Coffee”? ;-)
But you are correct about the full-band evangelical-style worship. You and I share a dislike for those, although I must admit – at one time I did not.
Over time, I have come to realize that the human voice is God’s greatest sacred instrument.
For the past 10 years I have been attending Byzantine liturgies with no instrumentation, no rock and roll, and no sentimental Casio keyboarding. Would I ever go back? Not on your life!
As far as the “correctness” of the liturgy over Holy Week, I did not see any theological error opposed to orthodoxy. That did not mean that there was no room to improve in terms of orthopraxis.
So if you can hold a tune in a bucket and have the desire and the time, see if you can start a Gregorian Schola on campus!
In ICXC,
Gordo
PS: This is more in keeping with my sense of beauty…
http://www.saintelias.com/ca/index.php
and
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=tsyhan
“[T]he Mass—no matter what form—is sacred and a reminder of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.”
Yikes. That’s pretty clumsy.
“The Mass – no matter what form – is sacred amd a reminder of Jesus Christ’s
Sacrifice on the cross”. I attended the Mass being discussed, and must
correct this. Mons. Yontz did not, and would not, say that. He said that it
is a re-presenting of the sacrifice. The student journalist must have the
theological problem! On a side note, the 11:00 Mass at St. Peter’s is
always a beautiful Mass. Today the Gloria, Agnus Dei and Sanctus were in latin,
as was the Alma Redemptoris Mater at the end of Mass. The Kyrie was in Greek,
and the Gospel was sung by the Deacon, Dr. Mark Miravalle. Fr. Ray Ryland was
the Celebrant, and gave an amazing homily on repentance and contrition. Oh, and
as a bonus, we had about 16 male servers, from very little ones to teenagers.
What a blessing this parish is, and now the Tridentine Mass as well!