Another step toward the persecution.
My emphases and comments.
FAITH UNDER FIRE
Major U.S. city officially condemns Catholic Church
Instructs members to defy ‘Holy Office of Inquisition’Posted: July 15, 2008
San Francisco’s Golden Gate Bridge
A San Francisco city and county board resolution that officially labeled the Catholic church’s moral teachings on homosexuality as "insulting to all San Franciscans," "hateful," "defamatory," "insensitive" and "ignorant" will be challenged tomorrow in court for violating the Constitution’s prohibition of government hostility toward religion.
Resolution 168-08, passed unanimously by the City and County of San Francisco Board of Supervisors two years ago, also accused the Vatican of being a "foreign country" meddling with and attempting to "negatively influence (San Francisco’s) existing and established customs."
It said of the church’s teaching on homosexuality, "Such hateful and discriminatory rhetoric is both insulting and callous, and shows a level of insensitivity and ignorance which has seldom been encountered by this Board of Supervisors."
As WND reported, Resolution 168-08 was an official response to the Catholic Church’s ban on adoption placements into homosexual couple households, issued by Cardinal William Levada of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican.
The board’s resolution urged the city’s local archbishop and the Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of San Francisco to defy the Vatican’s instructions, concluding with a spiteful reminder that the church authority that issued the ban was known 100 years ago as "The Holy Office of the Inquisition."
The resolution also took a shot at Levada, the former archbishop of San Francisco, saying, "Cardinal Levada is a decidedly unqualified representative of his former home city, and of the people of San Francisco and the values they hold dear."
The anti-Catholic diatribe had been challenged in U.S. District Court on similar grounds, but District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled in favor of the city, saying, in essence, the church started it.
She wrote in her decision, "The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith provoked this debate, indeed may have invited entanglement" for instructing Catholic politicians on how to vote. This court does not find that our case law requires political bodies to remain silent in the face of provocation."
She ruled that the city’s proclamation was not entangling the government in church affairs, since the resolution was a non-binding, non-regulatory announcement.
Since no law was enacted, she ruled, city officials – even in their official capacity as representatives of the government – can say what they want.
"It is merely the exercise of free speech rights by duly elected office holders," she wrote. [Ohhhh… I think it’s a little more than that now.]
Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, which is appealing the District Court decision on behalf of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights and two Catholic residents of San Francisco, disagrees with Patel’s decision.
"Sadly, the ruling itself clearly exhibited hostility toward the Catholic Church," he said in a statement. "The judge in her written decision held that the Church ‘provoked the debate’ by publicly expressing its moral teaching, and that by passing the resolution the City responded ‘responsibly’ to all of the ‘terrible’ things the Church was saying." [You wouldn’t want the Church to have free speech.]
Thomas More attorney Robert Muise will present oral arguments in the case tomorrow morning in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. [Imagine. The 9th Circuit. What a joke.]
"Our Constitution plainly forbids hostility toward any religion, including the Catholic faith," he said.
"In total disregard for the Constitution, homosexual activists in positions of authority in San Francisco have abused their authority as government officials and misused the instruments of the government to attack the Catholic Church. Their egregious abuse of power has now the backing of a lower federal court. … Unfortunately, all too often we see a double standard being applied in Establishment Clause cases," Muise said.
Thomas More attorneys argued in the District Court case that the "anti-Catholic resolution sends a clear message" that Catholics are "outsiders, not full members of the political community." [That’s it.]
The cultural, and now political, straight-arm to adherents of the Christian faith in San Francisco has been increasingly public in the last two years. Just one week after the anti-Catholic resolution was passed, the San Francisco Board issued a similar resolution against a mostly evangelical group.
Following a gathering of 25,000 teens at San Francisco’s AT&T Park as part of Ron Luce’s Teen Mania "Battle Cry for a Generation" rally against the sexualization of America’s youth culture by advertisers and media, the board spoke out formally again.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the Board of Supervisors unanimously passed a resolution condemning the "act of provocation" by what it termed an "anti-gay," "anti-choice" organization that aimed to "negatively influence the politics of America’s most tolerant and progressive city."
Openly homosexual California Assemblyman Mark Leno told protesters of the teen rally that though such religious people may be few, "they’re loud, they’re obnoxious, they’re disgusting, and they should get out of San Francisco." [Nice! They should also rename the city, to get rid of the last taint of Christianity. Then we can put up a wall.]
The Chronicle also reported a San Francisco protester against the evangelical youth rally carried a sign that may sum up the sentiment: "I moved here to get away from people like you."
The Thomas More Law Center hopes the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals will decide in the case of Resolution 1680-08 that even if a large portion of the community is at odds with a religion’s views on homosexuality, the government cannot be used as a weapon to condemn religious faith. [Just watch.]
Currently, as WND has reported, Colorado and Michigan are tackling the question of whether the Bible itself can be vilified as "hate speech" for it’s condemnation of homosexuality, and Canada has developed human rights commissions, which have decided people cannot express opposition to homosexuality without fear of government reprisal.
Another step toward what we know must eventually come.
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I’m offended that they’re offended. There is no one more il-liberal than a liberal. I wonder if Nancy Pelosi will speak out and defend
her “religion.” I’m not holding my breath. If we were as vindictive as these folks we would boycott San Francisco.
Tom
TRUTH WILL PREVAIL.
Bill Donahue is behind the times. I don’t think he realizes that he’s complaining about discrimination against a Church that is quickly becoming regarded as a hate group. Once the nominal Catholics get it through their heads that the Church is not a democracy and there won’t be any “progress” in doctrine, they will leave. Those of us who remain will be viewed as something bizarre, like the Amish, only shameful, like the KKK.
Truth prevails with martyrdom.
Time to make like Saints and ‘set the whole world on fire’ in the words of St. Catherine of Siena. This could not occur if we were who we ought to be. Even three St. John Vianney’s in the world at this moment, and the Devil’s work now would be abolished.
Funny, WDTPRS has more than three readers.
TJM – didn’t Pelosi, just a few weeks ago, kiss the Holy Father’s ring during an encounter in Washington D.C., showing deference to his Office and submission to the teaching authority of the Church? so of course she’ll be defending the Faith in this matter…when i think of Catholic politicians fearlessly working to promote the values of the Culture of Life in this country and standing up for the (minority) Church in California, i think of Nancy Pelosi
The Thomas More Law Center says that government can’t push around religion? How apropos.
St. Thomas More, ora pro nobis.
May fire and brimstone rain down upon them! Let the Earth open and swallow them and all their evil and liberal ways so that they may know that He is the LORD! Smite them please! [Enough with the smiting. No one can be happy about this ghastly bigotry, but if anyone continues in this line on this blog, I will close the combox and then toss the person from blog. – Fr. Z]
BTW, where is the link to this article? I want to share it with someone (the article, that is, not just this blog.)
This is such a scandalous situation. As one who is living in the archdiocese of San Francisco (but would never even consider living in the city itself) I would like to state that our current archbishop has done NOTHING to further traditional/orthodox church
teaching, customs or morality. Quite the contrary! He has done everything he can to keep the EF out of the confines of the city (opting instead to place it in Marin county, several inaccessible miles to the north where one must endure trafic and a $5 toll across the golden gate bridge jsut to get there). He has also notoriously cozied up to the homosexual community and is a vestage of the 70’s California church liberals (as was his predecessor, Levada…make no mistake there). If you want to see to what extent the archbishop stoops to appease the homosexual agenda, Watch This (caution, you may find it extremely offensive, but I assure you it is genuine).
The point is, the church hardly has a champion in our current archbishop. There is actually a groundswell to get him removed. So, don’t expect him to issue a statement against the city of SF for this resolution, which he no doubt sympathises and agrees with.
Now look at how the Archdiocese has responded to the attack:
http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=cb3aaf37-2283-4a5d-a49a-49a9495355b0
Please pray for us!
Here is an aritlce by Michael Brown that is somewhat related:
DOES POPE AIM TO BRING CHURCH BACK BY MAKING IT SMALLER, PURER, MORE DEVOUT?
Now that the Pope has expressed his preference for sacred music (raising issue with that which detracts from the holiness of Mass), and has opened the way for more Latin in the liturgy, as well as indicated that he prefers giving Communion on the tongue (pointedly minding not at all when those receiving are kneeling as they receive it), the question is whether bishops in North America and Australia — where he is currently visiting — will follow up with more traditional liturgies.
Perhaps another question is: if not, why not? Is it not time to train our eyes more directly toward Rome?
Read the rest at Spirit Daily:
http://spiritdaily.com/smallchurch.htm
Wait! We can’t tell others what we believe, but they can tell us what to believe?
Openly homosexual California Assemblyman Mark Leno told protesters of the teen rally that though such religious people may be few, “they’re loud, they’re obnoxious, they’re disgusting, and they should get out of San Francisco.”
Ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black.
It’s sad to see people so enslaved to their passions and pleasures.
We are walking the same way here in Brazil with legislation that is going to be voted soon in the Congress… Please pray for us here so that we don’t reach these US pro-homosexual levels!
Actually, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals – though known for its more controversial opinions – is recognized by many jurists as one that courageously defends the Constitution against the encroachments of the government.
I thought as you did, Fr. Z., until I read “Constitutional Chaos” by Judge Andrew Napolitano (a great jurist and a phenomenal Catholic).
Okay, let me get this straight:
1) Cardinal Levada, speaking for the Catholic Church to Catholics, reaffirms that Catholic adoption agencies must not place children with homosexual couples.
2) The secular magistrates of San Francisco respond by formally approving, in their capacity as elected officials, a hatefilled and bigoted attack on Catholicism that calls on Catholics to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church.
3) And yet somehow the magistrates’ resolution is NOT meddling in the internal affairs of a religion whose right to exist and to freely exercise its faith is acknowledged by the U.S. Constitution? Somehow the Catholic Church is at fault for having the audacity to teach Catholicism to its members? And somehow there is nothing wrong or unconstitutional with a secular governmental entity officially adopting a hostile stance towards a particular religion?
Sound like this “judge” has ruled that Catholicism is at fault here because it provoked the San Francisco leaders by having the audacity merely to exist.
A more sobering question is this: what to do with those homosexually-oriented individuals who are faithful to the Church’s teaching, yet nevertheless accept the reality of their orientation? I’m sure they must not appreciate the “smiting” comments that sometimes come from fellow members of the very Church they have given their lives for. On the other hand, their hearts must break to see the disgusting ways in which some members of the “gay” community flagrantly disregard all senses of decency and morality.
Dark Night – that is nothing new. It wasn’t a “response” but rather an annual event to give the Jesuits something to look like they are still of value.
Pray the Rosary and pass the ammunition. Time to keep the powder dry, boys. We’ll be needing it.
Regarding this, and provocations about the Eucharist recently reported, and a generally aggressive stance on the part of a minority, yes, but still a segment of our population…
I think the time is right for someone who is respected generally in the larger society to say something like this…
“This is the language of going to war with faithful Catholics, and they will be joined by many faithful of other traditions; why in the world does (fill in: Board of Supervisors, this or that university, the larger civil society) want that?
“If you push these Catholics (I’d have the person who says this not be Catholic himself), they will sooner or later push back; if you violate their religious rituals, they will erect protections and barriers; if you go after their adoption agencies and social services and hospitals, how will the loss of them help the larger society?”
There are many arguments to be made in response, but one of them needs to be from a broader perspective of maintaining a civil society. Most people are sensible enough to get this without analyzing it, except for the San Fran Board of Supervisors, apparently.
Kradcliffe
Here’s the link to the story.
Along Fr. Martin’s lines– surely there are “numbers” available to demonstrate to people, loud and clear, what exactly would happen if all organizations in San Francisco that operate under Catholic auspices shut their doors tomorrow. Think of it– homeless shelters, kitchens, elderly outreach, elementary and high schools, health care, etc… It would wreak absolute havoc. These snide San Franciscans are willing to accept all this help while simultaneously biting our hands.
And that “get out of our city” attitude is so typically San Fran. Drives me nuts. They do the same thing every year about the Walk for Life West Coast. Because, of course, every resident of that glorious city is too enlightened to be pro-life, hence every protester must be from outside the city. Yeah. /snark off.
The best that one can hope for in San Fransisco is for the ground to open up and swallow the city whole, just like Sodom and Gonorrhoea. The place is not to be spared and such an event would be a welcome warning to the obsenity that is America today. I would even extend this divine solution to Sydney, Australia, today!
The problem Jordanes is that a constitution can say whatever it wants, but if men decide to do differently, they will irrespective of law.
A comparison of the Soviet and American Constitutions will reveal striking similarities, and the former has a laudable section on the freedom of religion in the state. In reality they did the exact opposite and it was just for show. That state of affairs has been the case in this country on minor things, and is now moving into more major things such as the freedom of religion.
Several things occur to me. It really is a tragic that St. Francis has to endure his name being associated with such a perverse generation. It would almost seem best for the Church to ask that the name of the city be changed. But I suspect it is better that we pray through his intercession for a solution to this disaster. While I agree with you Fr. Z on the smiting thing I am remineded of the fact that my Monastic Diurnal use the full Psalms with none of their imprecatory endings deleted. To what purpose is it Father that we have these Psalms in Scripture if not to be prayed? Is it to remind us Not to pray in this way? (This is a serious question and I look foreward to understanding this issue.)
Yes it is true that here we see the fury of a society vented against the Catholic Church. But in the end we know the outcome. The interesting thing is that should these people prevail and our whole society become ever so more TOLERANT in the not too distant future a religious group may atain to power that would in fact not tolerate any of these sins in any way.
However if anyone is interested in rejoicing in being persecuted because of HIS Name then I propose we all head for San Francisco where we will all find what St. Francis called “perfect joy”. Holy Father Francis, St. Bonaventure, and our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Pray for us and our entire nation!
A more sobering question is this: what to do with those homosexually-oriented individuals who are faithful to the Church’s teaching, yet nevertheless accept the reality of their orientation?
gitlance:
My thought on this is that you love them. You don’t change the church teachings, but you love them. It’s a difficult question because none of us understands everything, but what I do believe is that I am to be faithful to God and the teachings of the Church and I am to love.
-Wendy
The federal court judge’s ruling seems rather biased. To say that the Catholic Church started it is at its core a child’s argument. Also, the CDF was clearly only giving instruction in morals to Catholics. Any given politician can take it or leave it. The City on the other hand, even if it was non binding, was making a clear statement about a particular faith. They didn’t simple expound on the reasoning and position of an alternate morality but clearly condemned a specific group of people for their belief in something they didn’t like. This is rather frightening given that Hitler’s campaign began similarly with the vilification of the groups he didn’t like. It is also disingenuous for the Judge to say, in effect, that the City’s statement doesn’t really have any effect, it is only free speech. Defamation? Discrimination? Even hate is now considered a crime. The City has effectively accused the Church of at least three crimes in their resolution. This is certainly not a legitimate place to level accusations. I wonder if the Church could bring a civil case against the city for libel.
Funny, I seem to recall that Islam is also not very Pro-Gay. I wonder what would happen if the city were to use similar language to describe the Muslim community there in town.
Gee, Oliver. Thanks.
“what to do with those homosexually-oriented individuals who are
faithful to the Church’s teaching”
We don’t have to do anything with them. Are they
not also faithful in the Church?
Though we are justly angry, we must not loose our heads or — really more to the point — our souls over others’ hatred.
For those who are praying that God will smite and swallow and otherwise kill-off the anti-Catholics: Remember that those Brothers of Thunder (St. Peter and his brother St. Andrew) wanted to pray condemnation on those who opposed Jesus, and Our Lord stopped them from making that prayer! Further, remember that He healed the ear of the man St. Peter struck in the Garden on the night of His Passion!
Further, remember that He wishes us to pray to Him as Divine Mercy. We are to earnestly desire the conversion of those who oppose Jesus, not their condemnation, as we hope to have mercy and not condemnation shown us for our sins.
May I then suggest that we all pray a Divine Mercy Chaplet today for those who oppose Our Lord in San Francisco?!
May God bless us!
Kristen J
Kristen – very well said. As Father Z points out, there is no need or cause to curse these people and ask God to reign brimstone down on them. God will punish who He will
punish. For us to ask Him to punish or do harm to any individual is sacriledge at its highest form for a Christian. We need to pray for their conversion, live the gospel and remember what our blessed Pope Benedict said during his visit here to the US:
The preservation of freedom calls for the cultivation of virtue, self-discipline, sacrifice for the common good and a sense of responsibility towards the less fortunate. It also demands the courage to engage in civic life and to bring one’s deepest beliefs and values to reasoned public debate. In a word, freedom is ever new. It is a challenge held out to each generation, and it must constantly be won over for the cause of good.
That is a great point Athanasius and to put it together Fr. Martin’s comment I have to say that I am most concerned with the judge’s ruling. It seems that so many judges now have no problem handing down rulings regardless of the laws and constitution. They rule by whim because they know that they can and nothing will be done about it. But there is a huge problem with judges acting this way. When people loose confidence in the gov’t to deal justice fairly then those people stop going to the gov’t for justice and in some cases actively resist what they see as injustice coming from that gov’t. A group that gets separated from society by a lack of access to justice will either insulate itself from that society or will go make its own justice. I hope that we will tend toward the former.
Kristen said: Remember that those Brothers of Thunder (St. Peter and his brother St. Andrew) wanted to pray condemnation on those who opposed Jesus, and Our Lord stopped them from making that prayer!
Sts. James and John you mean, the sons of Zebedee and Salome, whom Jesus dubbed “Boanerges,” the Sons of Thunder. James and John asked Jesus if He wanted them to call down fire from heaven to destroy an unbelieving town. Jesus harshly rebuked them, saying, “You do not know what spirit you are of.”
Oliver said: The best that one can hope for in San Fransisco is for the ground to open up and swallow the city whole, just like Sodom and Gonorrhoea. The place is not to be spared and such an event would be a welcome warning to the obsenity that is America today. I would even extend this divine solution to Sydney, Australia, today!
I will pray that you repent of your un-Catholic, un-Christian attitudes and intentions. Even in the Old Testament, the saints Abraham and Moses interceded with God to save a sinful population from divine punishment. God would have spared Sodom if there had been as few as 10 righteous there. Even unspeakably worse is your desire that God slaughter everyone in Sydney today. Perhaps you would at least exclude the Holy Father and faithful Catholics in Sydney?
San Francisco is one of the oldest, shrinking cities in the country. Along with its large homosexual population and those young people who move there who aren’t procreating, it’s only a matter of time before birthrates work their magic.
That stadium full of young evangelicals is a preview of what’s to come and the board knows it.
“A more sobering question is this: what to do with those homosexually-oriented individuals who are faithful to the Church’s teaching, yet nevertheless accept the reality of their orientation?
Comment by gitlance”
What do you mean, “accept the reality of their orientation”? Do you mean, actively live a homosexual lifestyle? That they want to get married? If that is what you mean, then you have started of with a faulty premise: someone who wants those things cannot be faithful to Church teaching. A person with an homosexual orientation is called to a life of chastity, just like any other single person. Just because they have different desires doesn’t mean that they have a “get out of hell free” card. Since there is no such thing as homosexual marriage, sacramentally speaking, a person engaging in homosexual activity is engaging in pre-marital sex (and sodomy…), an objectively sinful action. So, I guess I’m just confused by what you meant.
I see no reason to pay attention to things like this. It’s a bunch of stupid whining and political posturing. An activist judge shouldn’t surprise anyone.
As Fr. Z suggests, we should prepare for much, much worse. I see the US and Europe taking stands against Catholicism as severe as those in China. Prepare for an underground church. Prepare to disconnect from your secular relatives. I pray for my children…
I read the Complaint, the District Court\’s memorandum opinion and the underlying resolution. One of the things which struck me was the resolution\’s reference to the Holy See as a \”foreign\” government interfering in American domestic affairs. Since local governments such as municipalities are not empowered to conduct foreign affairs, there is more than just the First Amendment issue in this instance. If the First Amendment argument fails before the Ninth Circuit, I hope that someone will litigate the issue of San Fran\’s illegal interference in the ability of the United States to conduct proper relations with foreign powers.
I know we have a guarantee that dark times stand ahead of us, but I still can’t get over the speed with which all this is happening. Today, right now, we see the instruments of the American state – our country! – turned on Holy Mother Church, for the cause of sodomy! I can remember even as a kid, and I am not yet 40, where you could still go to jail for such things. And now the state is promotes it and attacks the Church over it? The Enemy is moving very quickly, and has corrupted much of our society already. Things will get much worse, and soon.
Some suggest that this is politically foolish because religious Americans will rise up. I think they overestimate our numbers. Many “religious” people, including quite a few Catholics, have already accommodated with all manner of sexual perversion, and oppose the Church’s teaching. I think when more open and aggressive moves are made, we will have few defenders.
I think the next thing you can expect is for counterfeit churches to be established that will preach a false Christianity, and which will serve as proxies for the state to persecute the Church. These false churches will be declared the “real” Christianity, while the faithful will then be declared as being fanatics outside the mainstream, akin to American Taliban. Thus will they deny the legitimacy of religious opposition to homosexuality and otehr sins and freedom of belief. Orthodox belief will then be made illegal, on account of “hate speech” and the persecution will be formal. This is already happening – look at how the mainline Protestant churches (like the Anglicans/Episcopalians) have been hijacked and turned into instruments of persecution against orthodox belief. Do not be surprised if we see in the future an “AmChurch” breakaway from the Catholic church along the same lines. I believe such a schismatic movement is already latent and might “come out” if the state takes sides against the Church.
clevesem, surely you jest! Tom
This is the kind of stuff that may derail Obama come November. Gay pandering by governmenta officials is the sort of issue that really brings out the religious
right, in particular, in an election. Tom
Sounds to me that the City and county of San Francisco needs a lesson on the separation of Church and State!
I think something else that should be understood is that the Board of Supervisors does not speak for many San Franciscans. Many times they say things in statements (such as this) that many of its inhabitants cringe at. Much of this unfortunately is born out of an anti-Catholic attitude as well as political careerism on the part of the supervisors.They tend to think such things curry favor with the gay population in the city. However given the amount of political apathy I witness in the gay community here, I think that is a fallacy on their part.
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host –
by the Divine Power of God –
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.
“Resolution 168-08, passed unanimously by the City and County of San Francisco Board of Supervisors two years ago, also accused the Vatican of being a “foreign country” meddling with and attempting to “negatively influence (San Francisco’s) existing and established customs.”
Utter nonsense – did the “existing and established customs” predate the arrival of Christianity in San Francisco? Rather not. Insofar as the state and the city are concerned. the “existing and established customs” are based upon and permeated with… the Catholic Faith! The venerealists are the ones who have “negatively influenced[d]” those customs…
I am reminded of the words of a homily from a recent FSSP priest at our parish, who said that we cannot be friends with the world because the world is our enemy. Obviously we are called to love our enemy, sacrifice for them and pray for their conversions. However I think so many of us had hoped that the world around us would accept us and that we could live as friends together – yet what has darkness in common with light?
They crucified Our Sweet Lord and as He has told us, we ought not expect to be greater than our Master; what they did to Him they will do to us. In these dark times when Our Lady comes to us with urgent pleadings of repentance and the Angel pointing to earth crying out for penance, we can see these are dread times in which we live. Yet for us they are exciting! St. Therese said she was jealous of those who would live and even be martyred during the age of the Anti-Christ. Our lights, God help us, can shine even brighter! We can be even more Jesus’ own! We can pray for and make sacrifices for those who are yet in darkness and such abominable sins. Perhaps we can even hope we’re closer to Our Lord’s return…
It’s all very sad to see so many so deceived, so lost in such serious and heinous sins, offending the God Who made them and Who loves them. We need to pray.
Pax Christi tecum.
Dark Radiance, I apologize if I gave offense. There are many good and decent people in San Francisco area. I should have clarified that I was referring specifically to the public officials who made this awful proclamation. Again, I apologize.
Dominus Vobiscum,
Johnny
Catholics have to use the tools of a democratic society (including the news media) to fight such attacks wherever they occur. We can’t sit back and cry “Persecution!” unless we have used up all other resources.
No offense taken Johnny.
Pax
DR
Brazilian law would prohibit Christian teaching on homosexuality
Rio de Janeiro, July 15 (CNA).-The Brazilian Senate is considering a bill approved unanimously and without debate by the country’s House of Representatives that aims to promote homosexuality and prohibit Christian teaching on the issue, under the guise of combating discrimination.
According to the Association of the Defense of Life, the bill would make it crime punishable by five years in prison to impede expressions of “homosexual affection” in public places or private places open to the public.
It would also punish those who deny employment openly homosexual teachers in schools with up to three years imprisonment, making it impossible for Catholic or Christian schools to prevent homosexuals from joining their faculties.
The bill would also impose prison sentences on any kind of moral, ethical, philosophical or psychological expression that questions homosexual practices. In this way, “a priest, a pastor, a teacher or even an average citizen who says in a sermon, a classroom or public conversation that homosexual acts are sinful, disordered or an illness could be denounced and detained,” the association said.
Fr. Z: “They should also rename the city…” My old psychology teacher refers to it as San Fransicko. Maybe His Eminence will encourage other Catholics to use that name too.
Johnny – to echo Dark’s comments, I didn’t take offense at your post either (actually, it was oen of the most charitable here). I think I and others here were taken aback by all the calling for God to smite/destroy/rain brimstone etc on San Francisco and all of its inhabitants. I find it ironic that to date I have never heard such vitriol on this or any other Trad blog against Communist China (which outlaws the legitimate Catholic church), Sudan (which up till 2005 commited genocide and slavery against Christians), Indonesia/Malaysia/Afghanistan/Kuwait/Egypt etc which does not allow anyone to convert to Christianity, or even Saudi Arabia, which does not allopw the church to exist. Very puzzling.
P.S. Asking for St Michael’s intercession is never really a bad thing : )
1. Obviously the homosexuals have discovered an excellent, very useful rhetorical ploy- the concept of “hate speech.”
2. When are we going to turn the tables, and accuse them of being- as I believe the fathers of the Church did- “haters of the human race.” To this could be added, haters of themselves, haters of their parents, haters of everything good, chaste, holy and decent. Also haters of the republic. Look at what they are doing to Canadian jurisprudence. They are killing free speech. They will do it here, if we let them. They are quitessentially unpatriotic, among other things.
3. We need to mount the common sense argument that everyone with strong loves has correspondingly strong hatreds. In fact, I believe St. Catherine went so far as to say that we fly up to heaven with two wings, one of love and the other of hatred. The more we love God, the more we hate sin. if we love knowledge, we hate ignorance. As a society, we still love innocence in children, so we still hate pedophilia. If we love success, then we hate irresolution, etc. In other words, someone has to put in a good word for hatred. Hating homosexual activities is the flip side of loving chastity, marriage, children, families, normality, our country, western civilization.
4. We need to loudly proclaim that if we hate ignorance, that does not mean we hate the ignorant. That if we hate incompetence, it does not mean we hate incompetents. It it just incredibly stupid that we have allowed ourselves to be portrayed as haters of homosexuals because we hate homosexual acts- and with what good reason!
5. BTW- The concept “homosexual orientation” is itself part of the homoexual propaganda juggernaut. The argument that homosexuality is innate is the concept undergirding ALL the homosexual propaganda. Without it, their entire argument fall apart. Yet, it is a concept that we Catholics simply grant, as in these posts. ON WHAT SCRIPTURAL, PATRISTIC OR MAGISTERIAL BASIS?
5. “He who touches pitch, blackens his hand.” It is critical in these discussions not to allow ourselves to become vectors of homosexual propaganda and mores by linking to homosexual websites, photos of parades, etc.. We need to keep the discussion as abstract as possible, for “of these things it is disgraceful even to speak” – as St. Paul says. Obviously we need to speak of them, but at several removes from the underlying realities.
6. This war is not going to be won by argument alone, nor at all unless the Catholic people revert to being the prayerful, penitential people we once were. In other words, the burden of change lies far more on us than it does on the leadership of San Francisco. They have NO idea where reality is. We do.
I had to step away from the computer before responding, so as not to risk getting pitched off the blog.
Several things are striking. First of all, I highly doubt that any one of the 168 who voted in favor of this could even begin to tell you of either the Church’s teaching on homosexuality and the dignity of human life and sexuality in general, or speak with any kind of intelligence on the history of the Holy Inquisition. This is not unlike folk who like to call free market capitalists “fascists.” It’s altogether too easy to raise a spectre that surrounds something as smoke-like as “homophobia” and “bigotry” or to conjure up images of infidels being tortured, burned at the stake or grilled because of a institution like the Holy Inquisition when the office was abused. (I can hardly speak intelligently about that part of Church history, and I’m a convert Catholic. Why should we let them get away with it without calling them out?)
Secondly, ISTM that when stuff like this happens, we must “let the Durvishes whirl.” I fear that Fr. Z may be right, this is only a foretaste of the battles yet to come. Therefore, we must gird our loins, put on the full armour of our Faith, and, as Fr. Z has asked recently, “Pray! Pray NOW!”
Lee – no disrespect, but I find your post a bit out of touch on more than a few levels.
First – when you say, “It is critical in these discussions not to allow ourselves to become vectors of homosexual propaganda and mores by linking to homosexual websites, photos of parades, etc.” I linked to the page on YOUTUBE (which may be frequented by homosexuals but is hardly a homosexual website) specifically because it showed a mass in a Catholic church, presided and administered by our Archbishop who willingly gave communion to visibly evident homosexuals who mocked our faith with their dress. This is hardly a “vector” for the homosexual (the vido itself was created by a sternly Catholic group). Had I the least suspicion that by showing this video it would a) turn any of the readers here homosexual b) cause them to partake in holy communino in mocking dress or c) act as a “vector” to homosexual propaganda, I would have refrained from posting it. It is indeed informative, albeit disturbing. You can burry your head in the sand and act like ignorance is bliss all you want if you think it helps your case. But don’t preach to us about what is or is not critical for US. Speak for yourself.
Second – regarding homosexual orientation, you ask ” ON WHAT SCRIPTURAL, PATRISTIC OR MAGISTERIAL BASIS? How about hermaphroditism? There are countless examples of people living today who were born with two sets of genitals. Exponentially more examples are of people born with extra “X” or “Y” chromosomes, which make one outwardly one sex but inwardly another. These are scientific facts only disputed by those with the same audacity as to make a stateuent such as the world is actually flat. It stands to reason that if such anomalies such as hermaphrotitism and chromosome disorders which put the actual sex of a person into question, then the same can be inferred about a persons sexuality, which is in fact determined by the person’s sex.
Finally, you are way too caught up in hate. Hate is simply unproductive. The whole fundy catch phrase “love the sinner hate the sin” went out with the 80’s. Get some new (Catholic) material.
Ah, so you think the words of St. Augustine reflecting the perennial teaching of the Christian religion are just a “fundy catch phrase” that went out style in 1990? Is St. Augustine not “new” or “Catholic” enough for you?
Pretty strange remarks for a self-described Uber-Catholic.
Jordanes – my friend, you are confusing our beloved St Augustine with Jerry Falwell. One said Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum which translates as “with (agape) love of mankind and hate of sinfullness” and the other used the cloying catch-phrase I cited. I have no qualms with the sentiment, just the brainless usage of the catch-phrase in question
P.S. Don’t play the “I know more about Catholicm” game with me. I guarantee you’ll lose.
The key words that come to mind here are “narcissism” and “immaturity.”
The politicians (and most citizens) of San Francisco represent the young generation. This generation has been proven by academicians to be the MOST narcissistic in human history. (see data from surveys about how college students see themselves compared across generations)
It takes a profound narcissism to define one’s existence by an inclination that is contrary to natural moral law. It takes a more profound narcissism to then claim that everyone who disagrees with one’s lifestyle choices is evil and should be silenced.
And, it takes an IMMENSE IMMATURITY to make the claim that all who disagree with one should be removed from the political process. We have a democracy, we ought to to be able to participate in it. That means that even religious conservatives are protected by the free exercise clause and by the constitution.
But… friends… do NOT over react! The 9th circuit is a looney bin! They are the MOST OVERTURNED COURT in the United States.
There are solid people of faith living in California (and even in San Francisco). This is why the homosexualists are so angry. They know their opposition is powerful.
So, I ask the question: who cares? The rest of the nation absolutely scoffs at this nonsense. And the liberals who propagate this nonsense in San Fran are always surprised to learn that they are widely regarded with disdain by the rest of the country.
Did you know that San Francisco has had to close schools and fire teachers because so few children are born there now? It is true. That is how entrenched the culture of death is there.
We should pity and proclaim the truth to those who have bought into the culture of death for these people are literally killing themselves.
Thus, they are irrelevant. Let us pray for them, because even those have opted for irrelevance and death are MOST IN NEED of Christ’s mercy.
Cathguy – amen to everything you just said up there.
Wait until the Church refuses to bless same sex marriages….
I think that we are confusing political opportunism and popular politics with issues of faith. If San Francisco’s gay population were so hostile to the faith, there would not be a Roman Catholic church in the Castro(the city’s gay “ghetto”). The supervisors are just trying to curry favor with gay people who they (erroneously) think are not Catholic. If some of the supervisors actually took the time to visit and talk to the parishoners of the many churches that are in their districts, they would know better.
And gentlemen…if you continue to be so catty, Father Z may have to put out a bowl of meow mix.
Don’t curse the poor city. San Francisco is full of good Catholic history and good Catholic things. Just because certain vocal current inhabitants are annoying, that’s no reason to distress everybody else.
In fact, what’s a bit eerie is how such a gracious city has been warred against by the culture of death since the sixties.
Cathguy, homosexuals are not the reason that the kid population in SF is low. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to raise a family there?
What I mean by my previous comment is that San Francisco has been treated rather nastily by recent history. If you read Anthony Boucher’s mystery novels from the late thirties, and then today visit their scenes (Berkeley, particularly), the difference in what you see will break your heart.
Personally, I count every day that I wake up without feeling the breath of a lion on my neck a good day! Bring it on! We know how it ends, folks. St. Padre Pio said, “Pray, hope and don’t worry.” One might also note he left his monastery for only one thing…to vote!
DARK – You are forgetting the former-Catholics like Tom Amiano and Matt Gonzalez. They eagerly attack the church with impunity as it’s an easy target (and one they have personal grudges against).
Also, I think SF is a like any big city (even though it’s not very big) in that yes, prices are high which is a big deterant to raise a family. But the rent-control and zoning do not facilitate families to buy houses there either. Add to this the whole “metro-sexual” lifestyle popularized on the TV and other media (i.e. it’s better to live well and look good as long as you can rather than settle down and have kids…you could get a wrinkle!). And lets face it; Gen-X’ers and Yers are just taking longer to grow up themselves. I think all of these are factors in SF’s population decline, and it is echoed across Western Europe as well.
We don’t have to be successful, but we do have to be faithful to Christ and reject sin. We must speak the truth in love. Our strategy must be the same as the martyrs of old – let our persecutors see in us the love of Christ. Christ alone can overcome the conspiracy of the devil. The ghastly holocausts of the 20th C confirm that behind the culture of death is a relentless enemy, the father of lies. Only a master tactician such as a fallen angel could conceal its identity while promoting a conspiracy of such vast proportions. To the children of God the war and its players is real. Christians live and die in Christ. We are powerless in the face of persecution. In our weakness Christ is strong. Can our enemies be so confident? May the coming persecution be made short by the prayers of the faithful. May the hearts of our enemies be softened and the hearts of the faithful be strengthened unto Christ.
Deusdonat said: Jordanes – my friend, you are confusing our beloved St Augustine with Jerry Falwell.
No, you are confusing Jerry Falwell with Mohandas Ghandi.
One said Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum which translates as “with (agape) love of mankind and hate of sinfullness” and the other used the cloying catch-phrase I cited.
Ah, so it’s not that it’s a “fundy catch phrase,” it’s that you find it cloying and you seem to think Jerry Falwell came up with it.
In any case, St. Augustine said something that means “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” and you surely must agree that it is impossible to reject the principle and remain faithful to Christianity. You say you just don’t like the phrase being used “brainlessly.” But on what basis do you allege that Lee used it brainlessly?
P.S. Don’t play the “I know more about Catholicm” game with me. I guarantee you’ll lose.
Careful, Deusdonat — your Pride is showing.
I have no idea if I know more about Catholicism than you do, Deusdonat. I do know that I know more about the provenance of “Love the sinner, hate the sin” than you do. But from seeing you in action here and at Jimmy Akin’s blog, though, there’s every indication that you fancy your knowledge and grasp of Catholicism is superior to, oh, almost everyone’s. I would counsel that you show a bit more humility and, well, think a bit more before posting.
LOL. You seem like you are just in a bitter childishly angry mood and need someone to spar with. I’ll leave you to it like I would any one who is in dire need of a nap.
Pax : )
I personally think that religious freedom ought not to be the ground on which to fight this battle. Homosexuality is objectively immoral, it is not Christianity (or, Buddhism, or Islam, or…) that makes it so. This is not about religious freedom, this is about natural law.
Nice, Deusdonat. That’s the pattern I’ve observed with you, alright. Ridicule or condescendingly dismiss the critic, and attempt (and fail) to read his mind or mood, rather than concede you were in error.
Yes, pax tecum.
I was not “in error”. Anyone who speaks Latin (definitely not looking in your direction here) knows this. Night night.
We need to keep the Gov’t out of religion. That’s why I say that privately funded Churches are better and not publicly funded. Just look at Nazi Germany if you don’t believe me. The ones that were publicly funded were less likely to speak out. Sends chills down my spine when I think about it. Are the days of Nazi Germany coming back?
Father: I wish I could say you’re nuts. I wish I could say that militant homosexuals and atheists don’t intend us ill will and persecution. I want to prove to you that we’re safe in this country founded on liberty for religious and irreligious alike. I just can’t.
You’re right, and we’re all in big trouble here. Of course, the Lord says “do not fear him who can kill the body, but rather fear him who can kill the body and the soul in Hell.”
Deusdonat, you write,
“Finally, you are way too caught up in hate. Hate is simply unproductive. The whole fundy catch phrase “love the sinner hate the sin” went out with the 80’s. Get some new (Catholic) material.”
Personally, I prefer the old Catholic material:
Mt. 6:24 “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
The following is a translation by Fr. Bertrand Mahoney, O.P. of Letter CCLXXII from the ed. of P.M. Lodovico Ferretti, O.P., Lettere di S. Caterina Siena, 1927, vol. iv.
Here Catherine is quoting our Lord:
“I do not depreciate those who humbly petition me for their sakes or for others. I invite you to seek mercy for them and for all the world. Conceive, my children, and bring forth the child of the human race with hatred and displeasure of sin and with ardent and painful love.”
My two volumes of her letters are packed away for our move, but her letters are simply riddled with an appreciation for the place that hatred and love should play in the Christian life. An example,
“Now hatred and love have grown so big in mother and son, that he rushes to death because of his great desire to give us life: such is his hunger and so great his desire of saintly obedience to his father, that he has lost all love of self and rushes to the cross…”
My entire point is that we are far, far too alarmed and put on the defensive by accusations of hate. To annihilate the central homosexual argument we should take a closer, more dispassionate look at the role that hatred does actually play in everyone’s life, especially good Christians, but also every parent. I am of course not talking about malevolence towards persons, which is mortal sin in itself.
For example, parents have a kind of natural hatred of ill-health, ignorance and vice in their children, and will work assiduously to overcome them. As they should. If that were missing in a parent, he would be considered a bad parent and probably find himself eventually brought up on charges of child neglect.
If the homosexuals accuse us of hate speech, therefore, we should simply point out that there are many things which we should hate, and as good citizens work to annihilate. Tyranny, for example. Hatred of tyranny was the engine of the American Revolution. In addition, embezzlement, malfeasance in office, sedition, murder, rape and robbery, etc.
Abortion, pornography, pedophilia and homosexuality are also things we should hate, and hate with all our hearts, if we wish to preserve the family.
For my money it is simply puerile to say in response to this line of thinking, “Finally, you are way too caught up in hate. Hate is simply unproductive.”
Hatred makes the world go round. Take a look. Again, I am not talking about malevolence toward persons, but toward ideas, programs and laws that militate against the natural law and human flourishing.
On that basis, it is completely evident that we have nowhere near enough “hate speech.” We are dying of cowardly silence on the part the intimidated. In this instance our cowardice flows directly from our own confusion about hatred, and the role that it does play and should play in public life.
“We’ve had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence” -St. Catherine
Deusdonat said:
“Abortion, pornography, pedophilia and homosexuality are also things we should hate, and hate with all our hearts, if we wish to preserve the family.”…as well as artificial contraception and a contraceptive mind-set! All frustrate God’s great gift!
THE
DESERTS
OF
ONAN
(Genesis 38:8-10)
If you plant
God’s seed,
It grows.
With holy
Intent,
An openness glows.
Then to man,
God
Provides,
Wisdom to
Know,
Grace which guides.
So abundance
Will spread,
Propagate,
Feed the early,
Feed the
Late.
And you,
Fruitful souls,
A cornucopia fills –
While the deserts
Of Onan,
Remain wastelands of spills.
Nice. Assemblyman Leno called the religious youth “disgusting” for protesting the sexualization of culture. Homosexual activity not uncommonly involves the ingestion of fecal matter. Now THAT’S disgusting. And insanitary.
Time for a repost of the topic, “What would you take with you if you only had X amount of time.”
LCB said: “Time for a repost of the topic, ‘What would you take with you if you only had X amount of time.'”
I second that motion! I’ve been thinking about that old post a lot lately, surrounded as I am by so many wild fires here in smokey California… cough! cough!
Just for the sake of accuracy:
The resolution discussed is actually “168-06,” not “168-08” as noted in the article above. You can read the original resolution on the city’s website:
http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfiles/bdsupvrs/resolutions06/r0168-06.pdf
Resolution 168-08 actually deals with a contract by the Department of Human Resources to integrate the City’s human resources and payroll functions.
‘Tis good to be accurate with the resolution number, especially if you are going wrote some protest!
May God protect Holy Mother Church from her enemies and convert her foes!
TJM wrote:
“I’m offended that they’re offended. There is no one more il-liberal than a liberal. I wonder if Nancy Pelosi will speak out and defend her “religion.” I’m not holding my breath. If we were as vindictive as these folks we would boycott San Francisco.”
)(
Tom, why does one have to wait for Nancy Pelosi to do anything. What would she or could she do when this is a City Council thing?
Regarding boycotts, one doesn’t have to be vindictive to boycott anything. One just has to do it.
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Kradcliffe wrote:
“Bill Donahue is behind the times. I don’t think he realizes that he’s complaining about discrimination against a Church that is quickly becoming regarded as a hate group. Once the nominal Catholics get it through their heads that the Church is not a democracy and there won’t be any “progress” in doctrine, they will leave. Those of us who remain will be viewed as something bizarre, like the Amish, only shameful, like the KKK.”
)(
Part of the problems The Church and the Faithful confront in the secular world is due in part to the **leavings**. When people leave the church for whatever whiny reason, they become among the Church’s worst enemies.
BTW, I admire the Amish. Their sense of community and lifestyle is a very humble thing. One of the things which proved their humility is when they forgave the gunman who deliberately shot and killed their children in their school last year or so. That was a horrible thing but the said they forgave and would pray for him. How many Catholics do that?
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Hidden One wrote:
“Time to make like Saints and ‘set the whole world on fire’ in the words of St. Catherine of Siena. This could not occur if we were who we ought to be.
)(
I agree with on the first part, but the “Even three St. John Vianney’s in the world at this moment, and the Devil’s work now would be abolished. Funny, WDTPRS has more than three readers,” doesn’t seem to have a correlation, to me.
======
Clevesem wrote:
“TJM – didn’t Pelosi, just a few weeks ago, kiss the Holy Father’s ring during an encounter in Washington D.C., showing deference to his Office and submission to the teaching authority of the Church? so of course she’ll be defending the Faith in this matter… when i think of Catholic politicians fearlessly working to promote the values of the Culture of Life in this country and standing up for the (minority) Church in California, i think of Nancy Pelosi.
)(
You are being humorously sarcastic, aren’t you?
======
WhollyRoamin’Catholic wrote:
“The Thomas More Law Center says that government can’t push around religion? How apropos.
St. Thomas More, ora pro nobis.”
)(
This is a great example of what I have been telling people for a while. Everyone thinks religious persecution in this country is not possible. Think again. It began with political correctness, not even a healthy, adult conversation about a matter is not allowed. It follows into the media and entertainment which began not only pushing the envelope in their stories and productions, but it then followed with the slow and deliberate mocking of the Christianity, and the Catholic Faith in particular. Christianity and God cannot be mentioned in the schools or other public institutions. It then leads up to this San Francisco nonsense.
The fact a city council would even consider what SF has done shows you the beginnings of the coming persecutions. This is what Cummunism and fascism are. When the opposing ideas need to be silenced or criminalized so that only the persecutors opinion prevails because they cannot on their own hold their arguments, then the very things this country has gone to war over will be for nothing.
We must be vigilant and fight these errors with truth AND charity. Everyone should be praying extra Divine Mercy chaplets for these city leaders. No “Divine air strikes,” leave that for God to decide. There’s nothing the devil hates more than when we pray for our enemy’s conversion. This is your current opportunity to love your enemies. Yes, the persecution will increase the more progress is made by the homosexual propaganda. The apostasy will allow a faster spread of that evil.
Indeed Long-Skirts,
Paul VI condemns contraception.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6humana.htm
10. Hence conjugal love requires in husband and wife an awareness of their mission of “responsible parenthood,” which today is rightly much insisted upon, and which also must be exactly understood. Consequently it is to be considered under different aspects which are legitimate and connected with one another. In relation to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means the knowledge and respect of their functions; human intellect discovers in the power of giving life biological laws which are part of the human person.9 In relation to the tendencies of instinct or passion, responsible parenthood means that necessary dominion which reason and will must exercise over them. In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised, either by the deliberate and generous decision to raise a numerous family, or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth. Responsible parenthood also and above all implies a more profound relationship to the objective moral order established by God, of which a right conscience is the faithful interpreter. The responsible exercise of parenthood implies, therefore, that husband and wife recognize fully their own duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society, in a correct hierarchy of values. In the task of transmitting life, therefore, they are not free to proceed completely at will, as if they could determine in a wholly autonomous way the honest path to follow; but they must conform their activity to the creative intention of God, expressed in the very nature of marriage and of its acts, and manifested by the constant teaching of the Church.10
11. These acts, by which husband and wife are united in chaste intimacy, and by means of which human life is transmitted, are, as the Council recalled, “noble and worthy,”11 and they do not cease to be lawful if, for causes independent of the will of husband and wife, they are foreseen to be infecund, since they always remain ordained towards expressing and consolidating their union. In fact, as experience bears witness, not every conjugal act is followed by a new life. God has wisely disposed natural laws and rhythms of fecundity which, of themselves, cause a separation in the succession of births. Nonetheless the Church, calling men back to the observance of the norms of the natural law, as interpreted by their constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marriage act (quilibet matrimonii usus) must remain open to the transmission of life.12
I agree Father,
It’s immoral to call on the death of anyone. God is love, not swords.
Kristen J wrote:
“Though we are justly angry, we must not loose our heads or—really more to the point—our souls over others’ hatred.
For those who are praying that God will smite and swallow and otherwise kill-off the anti-Catholics: Remember that those Brothers of Thunder (St. Peter and his brother St. Andrew) wanted to pray condemnation on those who opposed Jesus, and Our Lord stopped them from making that prayer! Further, remember that He healed the ear of the man St. Peter struck in the Garden on the night of His Passion!
Further, remember that He wishes us to pray to Him as Divine Mercy. We are to earnestly desire the conversion of those who oppose Jesus, not their condemnation, as we hope to have mercy and not condemnation shown us for our sins.
May I then suggest that we all pray a Divine Mercy Chaplet today for those who oppose Our Lord in San Francisco?!
May God bless us!
Kristen J”
)(
Kristen, this is true. We have a commanded response to forgive. Forgiveness helps us further along our relationship with God and truly, forgiveness helps bring about the other person’s conversion. We mustn’t miss the opportunity to pray for someone’s conversion. Let’s all keep in mind, **however**, that how God brings about a person’s conversion is entirely up to Him. Conversion may be brought about kindly or harshly, gently or dramatically. I personally know of cases where God allowed or caused the person to be crushed all the down so that their conversion can really occur. It seems dredful but it depends on the where the person is in his life. That is known to God alone.
Granted, people dig their own holes and have to take responsibility for their own behavior. Too much in society nowadays gives everyone an excuse for bad behavior, but don’t ever miss the chance to offer a rope of prayer ( or an actual one ) so to speak so that we give someone a chance to convert.
======
Deusdonat wrote:
“This is such a scandalous situation. As one who is living in the archdiocese of San Francisco ( but would never even consider living in the city itself ) I would like to state that our current archbishop has done NOTHING to further traditional/orthodox church teaching, customs or morality. Quite the contrary! He has done everything he can to keep the EF out of the confines of the city ( opting instead to place it in Marin county, several inaccessible miles to the north where one must endure trafic and a $5 toll across the golden gate bridge jsut to get there ). He has also notoriously cozied up to the homosexual community and is a vestage of the 70s California church liberals ( as was his predecessor, Levada… make no mistake there ). If you want to see to what extent the archbishop stoops to appease the homosexual agenda, Watch This ( caution, you may find it extremely offensive, but I assure you it is genuine ).”
The point is, the church hardly has a champion in our current archbishop. There is actually a groundswell to get him removed. So, don’t expect him to issue a statement against the city of SF for this resolution, which he no doubt sympathies and agrees with.”
)(
Well, I wonder if, in my opinion, the SF bishop is in fact a closet one himself. Anyone who so closely identifies or ingratiates himself with a particular group or its cause identifies with that group in some manner.
Y’know, I’ve had this fantasy about giving a year for the sane people to leave, then allowing California to secede from the union (and taking on Puerto Rico as the 50th state). We could then get California’s disproportionate influence out of the U.S. political system, we could fulfill Arnold Schwarzenegger’s desire to be the first foreign-born president of his own country, we could cover them under the Mexico City policy (and restrict imports until they get a clue), we could wipe out the 9th circuit court of appeals, and a host of other benefits… (*sigh*) If only…
In Christ,
Brian C.
San Francisco, has hit some hard times, since at least the 1960’s…..that being written, the City is still standing because of the prayers and sacrifices of TWO cloistered convents of nuns in the City proper. So yes, while there is so much sin and degradation in that City, these pious ladies are imploring the Mercy of God and making reparation for the blasphemies and sins of the world, at cultural ground zero. I could go on about the quiet and humble good work these consecrated souls do, but I do not wish to make them more of a target for the evil one and his human agents than they already are. So pray for and with these good Sisters, and know that every January at the West Coast March for Life, thousands of Catholics and others of goodwill march for Life and the Lord of Life, in the streets of San Francisco. Now when it counts the most, it is the time for Catholics to “be not afraid”.
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yes, even the Sisters of Charity that taught me back in the 1970’s told us that we needed to be prepared for another persecution of the Faith someday because it was soon coming. It also reminds me of that verse from “Faith of Our Fathers”:
Our Fathers chained in prisons dark,
Were still in heart and conscience free.
How truly blessed would be our fate,
If we like them should die for Thee.
to quote Bolt’s – A Man for All Seasons:
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of the law!
St. Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
St. Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!
This should be remembered when fighting actions like 168-06 not the calls for death or destruction. As faithful catholics we have to give those opposed to us the same rights we expect for ourselves or we will end up completely unprotected. This doesn’t mean that we can’t fight injustices with every legal means possible. We can’t however resort to illegal mechanisms or denying others rights to get what we want. I may be impossible for us to win cases all the time but we must remain true to our faith and act accordingly in a moral manner. St. Thomas More recognized this even though it resulted in him dying a martyr’s death in order to keep the faith and save his soul.
We can continue to fight this persecution legally but in the mean time we can all offer up our sufferings for the poor souls.
It can’t exactly come as a surprise, nor should it be reason for complaint, that a group that wants equal rights is not fond of groups lobbying against that. You can’t be dishing it out but complain when someone fights back. It’s a classic conflict of interests – you view them as ‘intrinsically disordered’, ‘sodomites’ etc. and therefore want to keep them from adopting, marrying etc. What did you think was going to happen ? A thank-you note ? And please, a San Francisco councilman making a statement isn’t exactly ‘persecution’ – that’s insulting to people who were/are actually being persecuted. I don’t see legal consequences in this country, Canada being another story, but viewing homosexuality in the traditional manner, esp. when using language like ‘sodomite’ is going to lead to being shunned more and more. It will become more and more like being a racist. You won’t exactly be thrown to gay lions.
Cathguy, homosexuals are not the reason that the kid population in SF is low. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to raise a family there?
Comment by Dark Radiance
The two are not mutually exclusive. Upper income people without children obviously have more disposable income, which makes it more likely that they trade up in the housing market. That in turn raises property values.
Noone should be surprised by this issue. In fact, as was excellently pointed out in an earlier comment, the U.S. constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper, and that in this respect it does not differ from the late soviet constitution. Nor does it differ from the French constitutionS, and in fact they both come from the same masonic fountainheads.
In fact, it is only surprising that the Church has not YET been more under attack of the U.S. central and local governments, as it has been from the French secular states.
By the way, I was not aware of the Brazilian case, but one should not be surprised either, given the “positivist” (Auguste Comte) principles atop of which the Brazilian state is constructed.
Yes, we should brace and be ready to watch for each other, because things are going to get worse, and probably faster than we would like. In addition, the many transparently schismatic American “catholic” ordinaries and their bureaucracies will make the matters a little harder for the orthodox Catholics in this country. Unfortunately, there is really nowhere to go. Look at what is happening in the European Union, it is probably worse, with the possible exception of a few safe havens (Poland, Ireland, but for how long ?).
Actually, Russia is now much more of a Christian country than most of the Western nations.
Doug:
Thank you. I will include them in my prayers.
When they attack the Church they ARE attacking the domestic church-families as well. They are agressively aiming for the heart of the Church. Now more than ever we need to teach our children the beauty of sacrifice and perseverance, to pray for families and priests because: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ~Ephesians 6:12.
Gerald, do you really expect us to believe that, I pray that one day you’ll be a bigger man. Plus given that you insult the Church constantly, you should take out the splinter in your eye. But I can see that people like you, Gerald, are self-loathing liberals.
Two things I want to add.
No one seems to have brought up the case of a protestant pastor who was jailed in Sweden for preaching on what the Bible has to say on sodomy and other sex-related sin. More on this on CBN and World Net Daily – plus special web page dedicated to his case. It was widely discussed in conservative and catholic media in Europe – but almost totally ignored by mainstream media. So this is coming not only in the US, but also in Europe.
Second, someone rhetorically asked why the SF council didn’t address Muslim community in the same style. Well, the answer is that Muslims leave no doubt they are prepared to use force – even violent force – to defend what they believe. And sodomy-supporters are just afraid of them – they don’t have the balls to attack a community that will defend itself.
Why all the hand-wringing? Why is anyone really amazed? These are LIBERALS acting like, …..well…. LIBERALS! Liberals are all about “equality” until they are in power, then they are all about excluding everyone except other liberals. San Fransisco liberals have managed to build a leftist enclave with politicians legislating so as to attract extreme liberals, who then vote and ensure the continuation of liberal political power. If the Catholic Church were to “pull out” of San Fransisco, they would complain that they are being discriminated against by the very people they are now condemning. At the core, they have abandoned the truth, and so it is the truth that we must proclaim, not hatred and retribution.
Hmmm…A wall you say? So, a gay ghetto? Or gay city? No one will be forced to move there, but the offer might stand. ;)
John wrote:
“As faithful Catholics we have to give those opposed to us the same rights we expect for ourselves or we will end up completely unprotected. This doesn’t mean that we can’t fight injustices with every legal means possible. We can’t however resort to illegal mechanisms or denying others rights to get what we want. I may be impossible for us to win cases all the time but we must remain true to our faith and act accordingly in a moral manner. St. Thomas More recognized this even though it resulted in him dying a martyr’s death in order to keep the faith and save his soul.
We can continue to fight this persecution legally but in the mean time we can all offer up our sufferings for the poor souls.”
)(
John, yes, you are correct in your thinking but remember, unless this is truly fought, the opposition is intent on making sure you don’t get the same fair shakes. That this would even come about is a clear sign we’re at a disadvantage especially if legally they are given a pass to continue. What concerns me is the average Catholic–doesn’t know how to fight for anything. Most Catholics just roll over and let the bad guy take over and thinks he’s being humble.
John,
“We can’t however resort to illegal mechanisms or denying others rights to get what we want”
I can’t seem to find what this refers to in the thread… was there a suggestion that some kind of illegal action be taken? It seems to me that all the above suggestions are perfectly legal and would not deny anyone their rights.
Furthermore, it is not a case of getting “what we want”, it is of securing what is just.
Matt
Deusdonat said: I was not “in error”. Anyone who speaks Latin (definitely not looking in your direction here) knows this.
Ghandhi didn’t speak the aphorism in Latin, he said it in English.
Night night.
Cute. This is my last contribution to this rabbit trail. I’ll just tell you what I told Oliver: I will pray that you repent of your un-Catholic, un-Christian attitudes. Take a hard look at your comments and your tone.
Hasten this case to the US Supreme Court where,if memory serves me right, five Catholics reside.
I am not a US admitted lawyer (yes, sorry I’m one of THEM), but as I understand it each Circuit in the US has a complaints procedure. Assuming any of the posters on this thread are San Franciscan Catholics, why don’t you report the judge to her circuit for misconduct on the bench?
Also, don’t you have a ‘recall the vote’ procedure in the US? (If only the UK had one too.) Is it not possible for you to get rid of the Board, and the various politicians, by mobilising the Catholics in San Francisco to petition for them to be recalled?
God Have Mercy on all of us
I am sure the Thomas More Center has already begun the complain process with the regards to the judge in question, but as to your recall the vote procedure, the SF Board of Supervisors (which is a really a fancy way of saying City Council) has a very Byzantine (and not in a good Eastern Rite Catholic sort of way) set of procedures for getting rid of themselves (its taken years to get rid of corrupt supervisors). Not to say Catholics and in particular gay Catholics should mobilze against this, but people would have to realize that it would take several years to make see any headway.
Thank GOD I don’t live in S.F.
I hope they all know how to swim.
“I am legion, for we are many.”
God Bless them.
Gladiatrix, what judicial misconduct do you see here? Sure, the judge got it wrong. An error of law is not misconduct; taking a bribe is. Do you have some evidence that misconduct occurred?
Tertullian,
The problem could get worse. Five Catholic Jusices might have to recuse themselves for conflict of interest. This could get pretty sticky>
Dear Fr. Z.
I take it that there is a trend in the way public servants and law makers
treat and regard religion. I am a bit unplugged from society, so
I thank you for the heads up.
If I were a lawyer, or involved in civil rights, I would try (with the help
of God) to avoid any resentment or hateful feeling to grow in me. This is
because we are advised by Jesus to love our enemies, and to leap with joy
when receiving insults because our religious belief. Then try to fix things.
Anyway my prayers go for those corageous people in SF fighting for a just
society.
In my personal opinion the judge’s comments 1) display an ignorance of Catholic teaching that is not acceptable in a judge ruling on such a matter, is this not professional negligence? If the judge did not know anything about Catholicism she could and should have requested expert advice. 2) In accusing the Catholic Church in effect of using hate speech, when in fact it was merely upholding its millenia old teaching surely the judge displayed bigotry herself. Again, she failed to inform herself properly about the subject at hand which is not acceptable in a holder of judicial office.
In the words of the martyrs, “I believe all that the Church teaches and believes. Anything I can not demonstrate with my words I will prove through the shedding of my blood.”
In my opinion, this “attack” on the Church by the San Francisco City and County Board and its sympathizers is laughable. If these people had any guts, they would have passed a resolution to make San Francisco Catholic free by, say, 2009. The Church and Her faithful have experienced far worse, and as a rule, Catholic faith only gets stronger when challenged in this way. In this case, nonjudgmental and inclusive satire may be a stronger medicine for those who need it.
More of Gerald’s typical snottery against the Faith and those who practice it.
Somebody should find out where this heretic lives and make an example of how heretics should be treated when they mouth off.
Dominic.
+++