The USCCB says, the draft translation for the Missale Romanum texts for the "Proper of Seasons" failed to obtain a 2/3 majority of favorable votes. Back to the drawing board.
I think we have reasons to be irritated about this.
Bishops Reopen Consultation Process After Translation For Proper Of Seasons Fails To Meet Two-Third Majority
WASHINGTON—The U.S. bishops failed to approve the English translation of the Proper of Seasons prayers from the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, at the June general assembly of the United States Conference of Bishops, in Orlando, Florida. A two-thirds majority of Latin rite members of the Conference is needed for approval of the translation. The vote at the meeting was inconclusive and subsequent mail ballots from absent members kept the measure from passing.
This text, the “Gray Book” draft translation prepared by the International Commission for English in the Liturgy (ICEL), was submitted to the bishops of English–speaking countries for approval. A “Gray Book” is the second draft proposed by ICEL after the bishops of the participating English-speaking conferences have had the chance to review the initial draft (or Green Book). The Proper of Seasons is the second of twelve sections of the full text of the Roman Missal.
Bishop Arthur Serratelli, Chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Divine Worship indicated that the Committee will now present the Gray Book to the bishops for renewed consideration, including the usual Conference process that allows bishops to submit modifications to the text for consideration. [Endless committees. I think I want the Holy See to step in soon.] The Committee intends to present the text again for a vote at the November 2008 meeting in Baltimore. Should the text then receive an affirmative vote of two–thirds of the Latin Rite members of the USCCB, the text will be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for subsequent confirmation.
In addition to the Proper of Seasons, the Committee on Divine Worship plans to submit two additional “Gray Book” texts for consideration and vote this fall, in hopes that the USCCB will keep pace with the actions of other English–speaking conferences. If the texts receive an affirmative vote by the body of Bishops, the original timeline will still be maintained, and the final text of the complete Roman Missal will be presented for approval in November 2010.
Loading ...
The discription of my anger is…well, ineffable.
Hrm… Are they ASKING for Pope Benedict to disband national conferences like this and go back to the good ol’ days before this sort of crap happened?
It would seem opportune for the faithful who desire authentic liturgy to ask the Holy See to invoke 104 of Liturgiam Authenticam:
“For the good of the faithful, the Holy See reserves to itself the right to prepare translations in any language, and to approve them for liturgical use.”
Or decree that the time has come to use the Third Edition in Latin if the conference can’t agree on the vernacular, for the sake of unity that is.
Yes, it sure would be a lot simpler, and the translations probably of better quality, if we ended “translation by endless commmittee” and just have the Pope appoint, say, four or five learned scholars and gifted poets who respect the sacral English language of Catholic tradition to just do the whole Missal in a year or two. Enough of having the experts run things past a massive committee of men whose grasp of Latin and English is dubious. Just find us a few English-speaking St. Jeromes and fix this mess. That or just rescind the permission to have Mass in English.
If only I could find that quantum reality wherein:
Dear Bishops of the USA:
Whereas you are unable collectively to pull your heads out of your *****, henceforth permission to use the vernacular in the dioceses of the US is withdrawn. All masses in the OF shall henceforth be offered in the Latin as provided in the editio typica Missale Romanum .
Better luck next time,
Benedict XVI PP &
PS Did I mention, ad orietem is mandated also?
Are the votes secret, or will we ever know how specific bishops voted?
What amazes me is how blind they are. Here is whats going to happen. Rome will get fed up with the endless debate over something that shouldnt be debated, and will simply mandate it. So you defy the purpose of the conferences, but worse, you end up losing the pastoral care that this demands, as there are some substantial changes. Those should be given by a bishop, and would go over better coming from the local ordinary, atleast in my opinion
I wrote to the USCCB and told them I could care less. Their collective dithering has
sent me to the OF and EF in Latin on an exclusive basis. And I told them my money is now going to that parish. Tom
Greetings Father Z.
Elsewhere, you made mention that in the near future you will be in the presence of Cardinal Arinze. Could your encounter not be of Divine Providence? Perhaps, if so moved, would you offer a humble and determined plea to His Emminence(on behalf of the suffering faithful), that His Holiness needs to ransom us posthaste from the liturgical doldrums visited upon us by the bane of our episcopacy? If so induced, might you even speak more directly, that “Papa Ben needs to kick arse”!!
“The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid “dens of crime” that Dickens loved to paint. It is not even done in concentration camps and labor camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) by quiet men in clean, carpeted and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices.” — C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
And why does this surprise anyone?
Things won’t change (very much) until the biological solution takes care of the aging hippies in the Chancelleries. That the Holy Father bypassed the bishops with SP, and, with this latest finger in the eye by the US bishops, is probably even less inclined to waffle around things….it may be (Lord willing) just one more straw being added to the back of a dysfunctional and passive-aggressive conference.
Do away with the conferences. Don’t need them anyway. Collegiality has proven, like so many things that came out of the drug-induced haze of the 60s, to be in practice a big waste of time and refuge for bureaucrats with no discernable skills (like government service…).
If only I could find that quantum reality wherein:
Dear Bishops of the USA:
Whereas you are unable collectively to pull your heads out of your *****, henceforth permission to use the vernacular in the dioceses of the US is withdrawn. All masses in the OF shall henceforth be offered in the Latin as provided in the editio typica Missale Romanum .
Better luck next time,
Benedict XVI PP &
PS Did I mention, ad orietem is mandated also?
this had me laughing histarically!
Oh for Pete’s Sake…Your Excellencies, enough already! Either give us a translation that means what the Latin means, or give us the Latin…but no more committees, PLEASE!!!
This is absurd. Will the result be that the translations will be different in the US than the rest of the English-speaking world?
I really can’t read stories about the USCCB because I always feel angry and disappointed. I really want to have confidence in my leaders but they are always giving me a reason not to.
It never ceases to amaze me how big the disconnect is between the young and the old clergy on liturgical matters. I can’t wait till all of this is irrelevant when all of these older people are retired and enjoying their last years by the beach instead of making decisions from which the younger generation will have to undo the damage.
I hope Rome makes it easy for us by overriding them.
Royce, that will invariably be the case. Also, I was under the impression that the translations were always subject to local variations anyway. I wonder, are there currently minor differences between the official translations used in the US, Canada, UK, etc?
Please pray for our bishops!
This is despicable. While the entire English speaking world save the US has approved the translated text, our bishops drag their feet in protest. If they must force the people of God to worship in the vernacular, why can’t they provide a text that is both beautiful and faithful to the Latin??? DELAY, DELAY, DELAY. Holy Father, Pope Benedict, help us!
Usque ad nauseam. This is why I have sought refuge in the Eastern Rite. There is no hope for the liturgy so long as the current crew remains in control.
Truth is these guys could have solved alot of things.
For instance when a bishop has to have a back bone, they could stand behind him , with a statement or something (case in point st. louis, ) Instead, they leave their brothers out on a limb by themselves . There is one truth, it shouldnt be up to an individual bishop to determine what the truth is. TEach the truth, quit trying to put your own spin on the truth. Christ said “Go teach” not “Go Paraphrase”..
Its the same thing here. Rome says this is what the mass is, translate to english. They say “Oh but we have to translate it in our own way…or the poor dumb parishionors wont get it..”
Its really sad when you get down to it. They will sacrifice the greater good of the church for their own “stamp”. Its pride in an ugly form. Just translate it already, translate it for what it is in english. If we were to go by their logic, you should have like 20 different english translations, because there are atleast that many variants of the english language , when you count local dialects. There are phrases they have in the south which I have no clue what they mean. Like wise, people in the northeast have their own euphamisms. Are we to include a translation for all of them too?
I sincerely hope that this translation gets passed. But, I do not think that it is a bad thing we have a USCCB in the first place because we don’t want there to be a civil war among the bishops! However, I also don’t believe that we should let some bishops who disagree with something or other to not let the truth be told. The Truth is we don’t need inclusive or politically correct language in Mass, and so we would have a translation that is more close to that of the Latin.
(Sorry if this statement sounds confused. I am having a hard time at the moment articulating my thoughts. Really though, I am not confused about this topic.)
Some bishops seem to be just playing for time. I presume any amendments approved by the USCCB can be overturned by the CDW, especially if the orignally proposed translations have been approved by the other English-speaking conferences of bishops. The only difference between countries in the proper of the current ICEL translation is one of spelling. In the ordinary, there is slight variation in the text of the Nicene Creed and one or two other places.
See I think a conference of bishops, while it does have its uses, in increasing collegiality and such, defies the office, and worse, and I might really be looking at this in an orthodox manner, it disregards the office of Supreme Pontiff. If the bishops have an issue with each other, or cannot make a decision, then they should be able to go to the Pope, whomever he is at the time, and have the decision clarified. This is the way it was for hundreds of years before the bishop’s conference. This traditions is what made the papacy. It started with Leo the Great if I am not mistaken, even though of course it is based in scripture as well, and we see Peter asserting himself at the very first council.
Bottom line, we done need a conference of bishops, atleast not to interpret for us what Rome has commanded. Again I say there is teaching, and then there is transliteration. This borders on the latter.
Fr. Z,
As a professional copywriter, I know how letter by committee can kill the effectiveness of a good sales letter, marketing piece, or well any other bit of writing. Millions of dollars are made or lost on how words are put together by copywriters and marketing teams who discover the power of words.
Why am I bothering to bring this up?
Because the Liturgy is infinitely more important than money and (as we all know) how we pray affect what we believe. I wish the Holy See would quit giving our bishops the benefit of the doubt. It just gives them time to stall the new translation.
Maybe this is the rope they needed…I’m just saying.
Come on. The US Bishops are really getting to everyone now. Perhaps their fluency in Latin and their more accurate translations will enlighten even the Pope. It is at a down right shameful point now. Gives more creedence to doing every Mass in Latin and forgetting about the vernacular altogether..I was of the thought, vernacular for those who prefer it and Thank You Holy Father for the TLM(Extraordinary)for the those who prefer it(myself included) but I am starting to sway. Perhaps losing the option to argue will open a few eyes…. People have been at the end of their rope for 40 years..ON WITH IT or AWAY WITH IT…
The “spirit of the council” dies hard.
What, one can only wonder, will be sufficient to persuade the bishops that that spirit has done more damage than could ever have been imagined? That it has alienated many of the older faithful, and that it fails to attract the young?
Is there such a thing as a papal override?
The actions of the bishops is also the reason I can’t watch their conferences when on TV. After about 10 minutes my perception of them changes. They stop being successors to the Apostles and look like politicians to me. Ugghh!!
Father,
I’ve got to say I’m glad that of all people, you’re seeing Cardinal Arinze this week.
I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you meet.
Ioannes Andreades – The discription of my anger is…well, ineffable.
I’d say it’s in-F-able.
Fr Z,
If you’ll be meeting up with Cardinal Arinze, maybe you could ask if the Vatican could be more forceful in their implementation of Liturgical Norms and texts, because here in Canada the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has been a major stumbling block for the faithful (is that not the origin of the Greek word for ‘scandal’?) with regards to instituting the GIRM. You may recall the persistent refusal for decades of the CCCB to listen to the Vatican, while they used an illegitimate lectionary.
The current “bishops’ conference” set up is so vulnerable to politics. I have yet to see how the conferences have helped the Church (at least in the States). I agree with Fr. Z. Rome needs to step in. Two to three generations have had to put up with our current translations, and the new translations are taking forever.
the Holy Spirit is still in charge of our Church, don’t worry.
I’d have preferred to see Rome approve the ICEL text for the world, and then make the bishops conferences submit requests for exceptions.
Speaking of failure…this just in!
“Anglican Synod votes to allow female bishops
By Stephanie Kennedy in London
Posted 2 hours 23 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 2 minutes ago
Under pressure: Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams (Reuters: Mike Cassese, File photo)
Audio: Anglicans to vote on women bishop consecration (AM) The Church of England’s General Synod has voted to allow the ordination of women bishops.
The decision, taken at a Synod meeting in York, northern England, followed a divisive debate between conservatives and liberals.
The debate over the issue was the fiercest in the church’s history, and threatens to cause a split in the Anglican community.
Before the vote was taken, more than 1,000 clergy warned they would leave the Church, presaging more trying times ahead for the Church and its head, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.”
Unless a bishop can pass a comprehensive Latin test, he shouldn’t be allowed to vote – he’s not competent in such matters in the first place.
I further believe that there should be only ONE English translation – NOT separate translations for Canada, England, Australia, or any place where English is the vernacular. The only difference should be in the spelling differences where they exist.
There is too much democracy in the Church – we need the monarchical structure of the Church to function like a monarchy again and stop playing so nice with all these committees and such.
Priests of the world (or at least of the USA) unite!
If we are not given an accurate translation of the propers, then we should use only the typical (i.e. Latin)edition!!!
Our homilies can be used to translate accurately (using Fr. Z’s commentary)the prayers and explain the true meaning.
It is certainly within our rights to do so.
And maybe it will lead the “nays” to reconsider — expeditiously!
Perhaps it would help the bishops to know that gibbet has been in frequent use within the Church since at least 1978 when Liturgical Press published their Way of the Cross- “adapted from an Old Latin Compilation of Liturgical and Biblical Texts” The eleventh station reads in part, “I exalted you with great power, and you have hanged me on the gibbet of the cross.”
I have a lot of anger right now, so it is probably not the best time to post.
HOWEVER, some things need to be said, for they are true.
Bear with me.. what I am saying is relevant.
We have a serious CRISIS in our Episcopate in the United States. We hear about a crisis in vocations. We hear ALOT about the sex abuse crisis in the priesthood. But I think we need to step back and think about data.
The data state that there is nothing special when it comes to the number of priests who engaged in immoral sexual abuse in the U.S.. The numbers range from 2%-4%. The statistic bears true for mere professions (like teachers) which also enjoy access to children and a position of authority which can be abused. Please don’t accuse me of being “soft” on this issue, and defending priests no matter what. I love the priesthood, and I defend it, that is true. What I am just saying that the data show that the VAST majority of our priests did nothing wrong. The numbers also comparable with clergy in the various denominations.
Why bring this up? Because it is entirely relevant.
We hear about the “sex abuse” scandal, but the scandal has TWO PARTS. Our priests get dragged through the mud, but only a small minority did anything wrong. The REAL scandal to my mind is somewhere else.
THE EPISCOPATE: According to the best data, two thirds of U.S. Bishops were either directly guilty of, or complicit with, the cover-up portion of the scandal. TWO THIRDS!! That means TWO THIRDS of our Bishops put our children at risk by protecting and covering up for a tiny minority who represent the “filth” in the priesthood. (Pope Benedict’s word… not mine)
TWO THIRDS. Let that number sink in and think about the ramifications. These are the same people who now vote down a more reverent and accurate translation of the liturgy (see, I told you it was relevant). These are the same people who intimidate priests and try to undermine the Motu Proprio. These are the same people who tolerate massive dissent in their dioceses (probably because they dissent themselves).
These are the same people who willfully misinterpreted Vatican II when giving us the “new Mass” that we have today I might add. Different generation… same stuff.
And they continue to act as if they have moral authority and are even self righteous about “Joe and Jane Catholic” while they commit yet ANOTHER ABUSE. I am tempted EVERY DAY to go worship at the traditionalist chapel which is ONLY FIVE MINUTES from my house. Instead, I drive more than hour in a van full of kids who were born because I believe in the indefectability of the Church and the truths she shares with us. (This costs BIG BUCKS now) Yet TWO THIRDS of Bishops in the U.S. it seems could care a whit about Humane Vitae, or the Liturgy, or the Mass, or anything else. It costs a small fortune to drive the family to Mass with gas prices where there are. There is a chapel FIVE MINUTES away where I know I won’t hear a slap-stick sermon and where I know the liturgy will be reverent. I won’t be told to “shut up and sit in the corner” if I mention how much I love Humane Vitae or the Latin Mass.
HOWEVER, I also know that I must remain in union with the Bishop of Rome… no matter what. So I stay.
Stuff like this makes me VERY angry. I am checking to see how my Bishop voted, if I can find out. Knowing how they operate, the vote tally is strictly “secret.” We shouldn’t know these things you know. We shouldn’t ask questions like this. We shouldn’t bring up the uncomfortable stuff. We are just the laity. “Go… sit in a corner. Even IF you believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches. Just keep your mouth shut.”
If, by some miracle, I hear can find out how my Bishop voted, and I hear its “no,” I am NOT sending in my appeal. I have every right to withhold my tithe and send it ALL to the parish where I hear the Mass of the Ages.
I at least still have control over my wallet.
Once again we have the expected response from the “hapless bench”. They’re about equal to my mother’s former monthly ladies gathering that eventually even gave up playing cards for just gabbing!
I could not be happier . . . we’ve been spared at least for a few more months. The ones with their heads in their ****** are the ones who think that dainty, effete language and complex compound phrases are more “sacral” than commonly understandable language. Dynamic Equivalence wins this round. Hooray!
Are there any bishops out there who will use their legitimate authority as sole head of their dioceses and implement a correct translation without any regard to any conference or committee? The divine constitution of the Church calls for individual responsibility…each bishop is responsible for his own diocese. Only the Pope, using his supreme and immediate jurisdiction, could override the decision of any bishop.
“Endless committees.” Reminds me of a quip which is quite pertinent – What is a camel? It’s a horse assembled by committee.
This is so ridiculous. I am even more infuriated by the significantly lesser concerns that the conference focuses on (at least based on the USCCB website). Apparently Muslim-Catholic dialogue is much more important than Holy Mass.
As a priest, I am not surprised!
Maybe this is an opportunity for the Holy Father to make some changes to the Liturgy, so the time wasted fighting about the translation doesn’t really matter any way. I prefer not to get a Missal like the Lectionary!
When are these thousand Anglican bishops crossing the Tiber? Does that mean the Anglican Catholic Church down the street from my house will be in union with Rome? I got used to the Anglican Use when I was in San Antonio and attending Our Lady of the Atonement, and I wouldn\’t bat an eye to move my feet, my wallet and my family into one of their pews. The bishops\’ conference can keep their translation on the back burner until three more popes have reigned and been buried. I\’m sick of the sappy hymns (which is another area that needs to be addressed quickly), the gender neutered readings, the slap happy sign of \”peace, dude\” and altar girls picking their noses on high. Sigh.
I don’t know whether I should be happy or sad. Where is the actual text they voted down?
Pray! and vote with your wallet. They listen to that, sort of –
Support them in prayer. Attend Mass somewhere else.
The hymns are terrible. Its a sing along. At one point I was all for it, hey it got people into the church I thought. But then one day after the rock bank got done, not only did I realize that we werent showing them the “true church”, but a song and dance show, but I also felt very…dirty. I had participated in something that wronged the sanctity of the mass. I ran practically to the nearest TLM mass. Now I think we need both, but the Novus Ordo needs this missal, without it, we are only going to continue to have problems. There is too much “gobly gook” that has been created because we left it up to bishops to interpret, rather then enforce.
Maybe the bishops should read the story of the Prodigal son. The whole point of the story is, the father actually lets the son fail, so the son can realize what he truly has. The son comes back to the father in the end, and both are overjoyed. Maybe we lose people with the new, more faithful missal, but they will eventually come back. Just like the people who couldnt stomach vatican 2, are gradually coming back. But you have to stay true to the doctrine, with out it, you have no identity.
You can’t be serious. 2 more years of liturgy that sounds like it was transcribed by a drunken C3PO using a 2nd grade thesaurus (or is that too big a word?).
On a more practical note, can we get the names of the nay-saying Bishops? I don’t mind spending a few bucks to get a letter to each and every one.
I think all the bishops who voted “No” must be required to report to Bishop Schori of the ECUSA.
Why Should this only go on the say so of the American Bishops if the other conferences have approved it. Words fail me
It seems, then, that we will have to wait for 2011 (if not 2012) for an improved
English translation of the OF to finally make it to our churches. That is also
the time when bishops like Trautman and Mahony will be retiring.
Why is it that I feel that some liberals in the church are trying to delay,
delay and delay things until Pope Benedict XVI becomes either too old, or even
dies? Mind you, that is a very real possibility. I mean no disrespect by stating
this, but Pope Benedict XVI is already 81, has had serious health problems in
the past, and while we hope and pray that he gets to live longer than Pope Leo XIII
did, we simply cannot presume that it will happen. The next 3-4 years are extremely
crucial, and the liberals seem bent on weathering these years in hope of “better
times”.
And, Carlos, don’t forget the Holy Spirit . . . undoubtedly she has had a role in this most recent mail-in vote!
“Why Should this only go on the say so of the American Bishops if the other conferences have approved it. Words fail me”
The Philippine bishops (one of the English-speaking conferences needed to approve this translation) normally follow what the American bishops do. In fact, we use the American
GIRM and import all our missals and liturgical books from the US (especially
Liturgical Press).
I am with Xpihs. Seriously, everyone who reads this blog should write to Pope BXVI respectfully asking that 104 of LA be invoked to save us from USCCB. And the word should be shared with those who DON’T read this blog to do the same. Mine will be in the mail by the weekend.
Unless a bishop can pass a comprehensive Latin test, he shouldn’t be allowed to vote – he’s not competent in such matters in the first place.
Give them a break! A bishop only has to be idoneus, which means he only needs to know how to pronounce Latin text of propers. He doesn’t have to understand it, let alone be able to judge on translation. ;)
BTW, I wonder how the Holy Synods of the Eastern Churches would work on such issues as vernacular translation? There still couple of them with this task ahead of them. (I guess that’s the question to our Orthodox clergy among readers.)
I know that Eastern Catholic American Bishops are currently considering common English text of the Divine Liturgy.
Not being bound by these bishops’ imposition of their vernacular translation is another reason why seminarians should learn Latin. At least when you pray the texts in the original tongue (either according to the OF or the EF), you know that you don’t have to worry about “dumbed-down language”. Besides, such Masses in Latin can always have booklets prepared in advance to give the people, with the Latin text and a non-official but dignified English translation next to it (like the sort that Fr. Zuhlsdorf posts on his blog!). It’s amazing how much our way of speaking to God conditions are Faith!
I encourage all seminarians to make the effort necessary to learn the language of the Roman Catholic Church.
Fear not. Obviously God is at work in the Church in a powerful way. Harness this suffering and offer it to God for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at World Youth Day. Do not give in to despair.
Kim Poletto,
Please share the address and I’ll join you.
“Fear not. Obviously God is at work in the Church in a powerful way. Harness this suffering and offer it to God for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at World Youth Day. Do not give in to despair.”
Let us put it this way: In the fight against Satan and all evil, God will be victorious in the end, but that does not mean that the “casualties” among the faithful will always
be at a minimum, since that depends on our cooperation with divine grace.
Yes, we must not despair, but we must certainly agonize over the souls who might
be lost because of the ditherings and errors of not a few of our pastors.
Thomas Cranmer was a heretic but he was also a literary genius and he didn’t have to deal with Bishop’s conferences or, for that matter, committees. Thus the Book of Common Prayer, what ever else it’s failings, is a book of ineffable beauty. I really can’t imagine Cranmer using terms like, “John and Mary Catholic.”
traduttore tradittore
(old Italian proverb: the translator is a traitor)
Why is anyone surprised with the National Conference? Consider their performance up to now.
Remember, too, the English bishops at the time of Henry VIII when all but St. John Fisher acceded to the Act of Supremacy.
St. Jerome wrote, “Non omnes episcopi episcopi. Ecclesiastica dignitas non fecit christianum.”
Enough people here have said it well enough – the U.S. bishops have missed the mark. Get with the program. Does the Vatican really need to wait for the U.S. bunch before mandating the new translation? Perhaps this delay will be an occasion for the Roman authorities to politely and firmly request (demand) that the English-speaking bishops of whatever conference get a move on.
The translation process has received excellent oversight from the Vox Clara Committee. The translations, judging from the first emanations we have seen circulating, are done by faithful ICEL translators. The U.S. bishops run the risk of having the rest of the English world pass them by. Now, if we can bring the bishops of England on board to honour Summum Pontificem… .
And, it looks like the Englanders will have their hands full soon enough. Let’s not miss the mark – let’s welcome home the Anglicans – give them proper preparation, but let’s be generous (as Pope John Paul II the Great said). They’ll be happy to come in from the storm.
I fear they can’t agree on the translation because not enough of them really understand Latin.
Or am I being uncharitable?
Annibale, ‘ut a solis ortu usque ad occasum’ (EP III) = ‘so that from the rising of the sun to its setting’. What we’ve had for nearly 40 years: ‘so that from east to west’. Dynamic Equivalence wins this round?
Semper idem. Are we really surprised? They are going to keep dragging their feet until somebody calls them on it. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the bishops are the weakest link in the Church, and, as a result, the priests and people suffer the consequences.
I don’t think we should demonize the bishops. Even in the Middle Ages they dragged their feet about getting to Church councils and making any serious decisions. If the medieval faithful got really fed up, they could remove the roof where they were staying and put them on a diet of bread and water.
Pope Benedict should issue a directive that until there is an immediate vote on the Missal’s translations, the following will be so ordered: 1) Instead of going to nice hotels in big, metro areas, the bishops should come to my rural diocese. The National Conference should be ordered to conduct meetings in Greenacres, located 10 miles west of Bakersfield, California 2) The bishops and clergy members would be ordered to sleep only at Motel 6 and Vagabond Inn motels 3) They would meet at the local high school gym, where they would also be served meals catered only by Taco Bell 4) All golfing, attendance at social/sports clubs, and vacations would be suspended 5) They would not be permitted to leave the city until their work is finished or the state evacuates them because of earthquake or approaching fire 6) After hours, their only permitted entertainment would be hearing the country western singers of the Buck Owen Crystal Palace of music.
At the Holy Father’s command, it would only take a very short stint in Greenacres to twist the arm of the episcopate to finish the work of the Missal’s translation.
It’s times like these, I thank God for the Traditional Latin Mass.
Lacrimarum Valle:
They can’t agree on the translation because not enough of them understand English.
And many of them simply don’t agree with what the new translation says. They were fine with the ideologically motivated paraphrase they had before.
I honestly feel very “conflicted” about our Bishops. As the successors of the Apostles we owe them a debt of love and obedience. And, yet – again and again – so very many of them have effectively abandoned their flocks by silencing, ostracising, or even punishing those priests and laypeople who have pointed out the poor liturgy and cathecisis in their dioceses.
What happens to this love and obedience when we live in a diocese where the bishop opposes the spirit and the law of directives from the Holy See? I think, for example, of Bishop Maurice Taylor of the Galloway Diocese in Scotland who opposed the implementation of liturgiam authenticam tooth and nail. I find it hard enough as a layman – I cannot immagine how hard it must be for a priest in a diocese where the bishop stands back while the liturgy and catechesis falls apart and only acts in order to silence protest against this state of affairs.
I could not be happier . . . we’ve been spared at least for a few more months. The ones with their heads in their ****** are the ones who think that dainty, effete language and complex compound phrases are more “sacral” than commonly understandable language.
In my eyes the world can see the reflection of perfection that is your beauty.
Yo, Babe, You are hot
Which would you rather hear from one who was courting you?
God deserves our best, sister.
Pray for our bishops. I think that there are still traces of that heresy “Americanism”, which crept into the Church here so early in the 19th Century. We surely need more Roman intervention. And, praise God for the TLM!
Let’s petition the Holy See for an already approved translation – no further work is needed. Make the EF the OF, and the OF can then become the EF!
This is further motivation for the Pope to simply step in and exercise his right to define the correct translation. The Holy Father seems such a kind and generous man, but he is a man, and as such has his limits. Is he is reaching them about now – I hope so.
How long must the flock suffer?? How many more souls will be lost in those two years? Does no one care about them at all?
If you want to slow something down give it to a committee.
If you want to bring it to a scretching halt give it to the USCCB.
Recall that Liturgiam Authenticam was written mostly by Card. Ratzinger. There is probably a good reason for Art. 104 to have been put in. I believe sincerely that this problem was foreseen, and as such a solution was inserted ahead of time. This may be a bit long for posting here, but I would remind all here of the response from the CDW the last time that translations were submitted that did not live up to the requirements of LA.
—-
Congregatio De Cultu Divino
Et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Prot. n. 499/06/L
Rome, 2 May 2006
Your Excellency,
With reference to the conversation between yourself, the Vice President and General Secretary of the Conference of Bishops of which you are President, together with me and other Superiors and Officials when you kindly visited our Congregation on April 27, 2006, I wish to recall the following:
The Instruction Liturgiam authenticam is the latest document of the Holy See which guides translations from the original-language liturgical texts into the various modern languages in the Latin Church. Both this Congregation and the Bishops’ Conferences are bound to follow its directives. This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is therefore not competent to grant the recognitio for translations that do not conform to the directives of Liturgiam authenticam. If, however, there are difficulties regarding the translation of a particular part of a text, then this Congregation is always open to dialogue in view of some mutually agreeable solution, still keeping in mind, however, that Liturgiam authenticam remains the guiding norm.
The attention of your Bishops’ Conference was also recalled to the fact that Liturgiam authenticam was issued at the directive of the Holy Father at the time, Pope John Paul II, to guide new translations as well as the revision of all translations done in the last forty years, to bring them into greater fidelity to the original-language official liturgical texts. For this reason it is not acceptable to maintain that people have become accustomed to a certain translation for the past thirty or forty years, and therefore that it is pastorally advisable to make no changes. Where there are good and strong reasons for a change, as has been determined by this Dicastery in regard to the entire translation of the Missale Romanum as well as other important texts, then the revised text should make the needed changes. The attitudes of Bishops and Priests will certainly influence the acceptance of the texts by the lay faithful as well.
Requesting Your Excellency to share these reflections with the Bishops of your Conference I assure you of the continued collaboration of this Congregation and express my religious esteem,
Devotedly yours in Christ,
+Francis Card. Arinze
Prefect
—-
I have no reason to believe that their response would not be the same if the translation submitted is not what is required.
It’s not that the bishops don’t know Latin. Abp Pilarczik has a PhD in Classics, and Bp Trautmann was trained as a scholar.
The problem is that they (and others like them) think that Latin, high English, and theological terms (e.g., consubstantial) should stay in the library and be kept out of the parish.
To me this attitude is residue from the Counter Reformation Church, when theology was reduced to little else than a branch of Library Science and lost its spiritual core.
Has it been noted that the same reasoning that went into the rejection of the Gray Book, is the same reasoning that prevents the Mass from being celebrated in Latin on a regular basis? If the presbyterate of this country would collectively decide to start celebrating Mass in Latin, just so that they can use the Third Typical Edition, the Bishops would be much quicker to approve a decent translation.
Does any one know which Bishops have been in favor of the new translations? We should thank them.
The fact that it had to go to mail ballots is reassuring. That probably means that over half of the bishops approved it. It just didn’t clear the 2/3 mark (it only took 1/3 to vote it down). Our bishops for the most part seem to agree with us. Maybe we will get a temporarily enforced English translation until the councils can decide.
The fact that it had to go to mail ballots is reassuring. That probably means that over half of the bishops approved it.
It depends on how many bishops were present at their recent meeting in Florida.
I think that there are still traces of that heresy “Americanism”, which crept into the Church here so early in the 19th Century.
Supertradmom. Amen. And, it ought be noted that far too many progressives and far too many traditionalists carry that infection.
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p22.htm
RBrown wrote: “The problem is that they (and others like them) think that Latin, high English, and theological terms (e.g., consubstantial) should stay in the library and be kept out of the parish. To me this attitude is residue from the Counter Reformation Church, when theology was reduced to little else than a branch of Library Science and lost its spiritual core.”
Yes, this is correct: that was also the same period during which ecclesiastics worked very hard to stop people from saying their prayers in Latin and refrain from making the responses at Mass: Latin was to be a “special” clerical language. The “simple faithful” were to be silent in church and pray in their simple vulgar language. Only clerics could use the holy language, even in private prayer.
How this happened has been carefully studied by William Christian in his book _Local Religion in Sixteenth-Century Spain_. That is why the world of 1400s England (described by Duffy in _Stripping of the Altars_) and 13th century Italy (described by me in _Cities of God_), with lay people saying their private prayers in Latin and singing the responses at Mass seems so non-Tridentine.
I suggest that anyone who cares about the state of the Church in America begin sending their weekly offerings directly to the Pope. That’ll get our Bishops’ attention!
I don’t think we should demonize the bishops. Even in the Middle Ages they dragged their feet about getting to Church councils and making any serious decisions. If the medieval faithful got really fed up, they could remove the roof where they were staying and put them on a diet of bread and water.
Pope Benedict should issue a directive that until there is an immediate vote on the Missal’s translations, the following will be so ordered: 1) Instead of going to nice hotels in big, metro areas, the bishops should come to my rural diocese. The National Conference should be ordered to conduct meetings in Greenacres, located 10 miles west of Bakersfield, California 2) The bishops and clergy members would be ordered to sleep only at Motel 6 and Vagabond Inn motels 3) They would meet at the local high school gym, where they would also be served meals catered only by Taco Bell 4) All golfing, attendance at social/sports clubs, and vacations would be suspended 5) They would not be permitted to leave the city until their work is finished or the state evacuates them because of earthquake or approaching fire 6) After hours, their only permitted entertainment would be hearing the country western singers of the Buck Owen Crystal Palace of music.
At the Holy Father’s command, it would only take a very short stint in Greenacres to twist the arm of the episcopate to finish the work of the Missal’s translation.
Fr. Angel’s comment
Thank you Father,I needed that! Humor helps.
I was reminding myself not to despair :) I am in the Diocese of St. Petersburg, FL.
Please pray for us here.
Might be a good time to reread this:
https://wdtprs.com/2008/05/petrus-amazing-interview-with-card-noe-paul-vis-smoke-of-satan-remark-concerned-liturgy/
It depends on how many bishops were present at their recent meeting in Florida.
I have no inside information, and only a general recollection of figures that were mentioned at the time of the meeting.
Required was approval by 2/3 of all living U.S. bishops, including both ordinaries and auxiliaries, both active and retired.
I understand this total number is close to 250, in which case about 167 affirmative votes would have been required at the meeting.
However, only about 175 bishops were present and voting, so negative votes by only a dozen bishops could have blocked it’s approval at the meeting.
No vote counts were announced, but I had the sense that it was probably approved by a large majority of the bishops present. Further speculation would depend on knowing how many of the 75 or so absent bishops actually bothered to send in mail ballots later.
Many bishops have proven themselves to be spineless in matters of faith and morals and the same appears to be the case in liturgical matters as well. What are they doing? Are they kissing up to amchurch liturgists because they have to deal with amchurch officials more frequently than they have to deal with Vatican officials? If they’re immersed in an amchurch culture that does not like Liturgiam Authenticam, maybe some of them fear the treatment that they might get if they go counterculture and stand with the Holy See. In the amchurch culture of the USCCB, it’s easier and more popular to resist the directives and instructions of the Holy See than it is to uphold them.
Could some of these bishops be voting against it because the translation is not accurate enough?
It seems that there are many good bishops in the US now (many more than 20 years ago). The “against” crowd could be made up of very “bad” bishops and very “good” bishops.
It seems that for the public at least the Bishops’ reasons against approval were ineffable.
The number of American bishops with a proficient grasp of Latin is probably embarassingly low. Even relatively “conservative” bishops these days may well have been educated with a year, or possibly two, of Latin, which means they know precious little (even of ecclesiastical Latin, which isn’t all that challenging relatively speaking). This is one of the elephants in the room when it comes to translation issues.
When one looks at this charade, it is very irritating. We don’t doubt that these men truly are successors of the one, true and apostolic Church, but they sure don’t act like the apostles. As others have written, they should get out of the fancy hotels and meet in a more humble place. They could meet in a seminary or retreat house. It’s long past time that they act more like apostles of Jesus Christ and less like businessmen from Wall Street.
Perhaps we should remember the following:
Rocco reports that there are currently 17 episcopal openings around the country (8 vacant, 9 with over-75 ordinaries). There’s a lot of time between now and November.
This is (only one) result when the ecclesiological theory of episcopal collegiality is translated into the all too human practice of the politics and sociology of committees. I believe that the passing away of the authority of primates and vicars apostolic into episcopal colleges, coupled with the almost total relaxation of discipline and the disappearance of the habit of obedience which followed the collective euphoria of the Second Vatican Council, has weakened the human governance of the Church on earth. I know that our dear Holy Father has written cogently and movingly on episcopal collegiality, but (analogous to theoretical Marxism) the shining theory crumbles into disorder (and, in the case of Marxism, terror and tragedy) when applied to fallen, sinful, recalcitrant, prideful, human beings.
RBrown wrote: “The problem is that they (and others like them) think that Latin, high English, and theological terms (e.g., consubstantial) should stay in the library and be kept out of the parish. To me this attitude is residue from the Counter Reformation Church, when theology was reduced to little else than a branch of Library Science and lost its spiritual core.”
Yes, this is correct: that was also the same period during which ecclesiastics worked very hard to stop people from saying their prayers in Latin and refrain from making the responses at Mass: Latin was to be a “special” clerical language. The “simple faithful” were to be silent in church and pray in their simple vulgar language. Only clerics could use the holy language, even in private prayer.
How this happened has been carefully studied by William Christian in his book Local Religion in Sixteenth-Century Spain. That is why the world of 1400s England (described by Duffy in Stripping of the Altars) and 13th century Italy (described by me in Cities of God), with lay people saying their private prayers in Latin and singing the responses at Mass seems so non-Tridentine.
Comment by Fr. Augustine Thompson O.P.
As I mentioned above, it extends beyond language. Neo Scholastic theology usually uses a top down, descending method–doctrine is approached as if it’s the Church’s ideology. For example, for St Thomas Sacramental theology is really a branch of Christology. For the Counter Reformation Church, it is as a branch of Ecclesiology.
It’s no accident that the religious institutes founded during this period, despite their pastoral success, almost never had third orders.
Fr Z., a question: Does the USCCB simply notify Rome of the vote’s result, or does Rome get a list of which Bishops voted for or against it?
Fr Z., a question: Does the USCCB simply notify Rome of the vote’s result, or does Rome get a list of which Bishops voted for or against it?
Comment by Fr. Jay Toborowsky
Such a list would be irrelevant. The nuncio knows who is for or against what.
And whatever the vote, Rome has the final say.
LCB,
Good point…Ed Peters has 9 vacant sees and 10 held by men over 75. And 10 more will turn 75 by the end of 2009.
That means (potentially) 29 new ordinaries in the next 18 months or so. That means nearly 15% turnover between now and then.
Hey, Father Sean:
What’s all this stuff about the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun and the East and the West? I’ve been around the block and I’m no dummy, but I thought that everyone knew that in New York – which is on the East Coast – the sun RISES over the ocean and SETS over the land but in San Francisco – which is on the West Coast – the sun RISES over the land and sets over the OCEAN! Like in her homily last Sunday, Sister Pat was saying, like where is God on cloudy days or if you can’t see the sun? But the compass in my hybrid works fine even at night so the two have nothing to do with each other. Stop trying to confuse us with all this Latin and Greek and other gobbledygook.
-Joe Catholic
p.s. Mary agrees with me…
The church in America has other weighty liturgical translations problems. The breviary is still a 1975-1976 translation with the Top 40 hits of that era as its hymnal, with the extensive sanctoral additions of 2001 still unavailable, not to mention a major revision of the Latin edition in 1985-1987. There’s no English Martyrology, seven years after the first Latin edition. Ironically, in the old days, new texts were available almost overnight in handy fascicles, etc.; now decades can go by without a hint of the revisions ever reaching the mainstream American Catholic population.
I like the Latin Novus Ordo ideas popping up here.
The discrepancy between the Peters and Palmo counts is presumably accounted for by the two appointments announced yesterday…Auxiliary Bishop Malooly of Baltiomore replacing the over-75 Bishop of Wilimington,and episcopal vicar Herbert Bevard of Philadelphia transferring to the vacant see of St. Thomas,VI.
Cardinal Maida remains in office at 78,will he be replaced by November?
Fr Z: What happened to the South African translation of the Roman Missal which was on the WWW for a day thanks to an orthodox Catholic priest in Great Britain until the nefarious ICEL threatened legal action if it was not immediately taken down? I saw that translation and it looked VERY good, very accurate, and very eloquent.
Jason the Copywriter, I know exactly what you are talking about. I’ve been a copywriter for 28 years, and I’ve pretty much seen it all…don’t even get me started, LOL!
Diane, not-so-mild-mannered e-commerce copywriter for a great metropolitan apparel company
P.S. To share war stories, e-mail diane_kamer@yahoo.com
Yes the latin novus ordo ideas are brilliant and quite feasible. I hope this will be supported by many many priests.
Write to the Apostolic Nuncio at
The Most Reverend Pietro Sambi, Apostolic Nuncio
3339 Massachusetts Ave, N. W.
Washington, DC 20008
Salutation—formal–Your Excellency: or Most Reverend Sir:
informal –Most Reverend or Dear Sir:
Closing-formal and informal the same– I have the honor to remain with high respect, or Your Excellency’s humble servant,
When I read an article such as this I think of a brilliant little book called, “Everyman Today Call Rome,” by Charles Coulombe, who describes the monstrous situation that much of our Church is in with aplomb:
“It is the heresy, the synthesis of all heresies, as St. Pius X put it, of Modernism which has infected the Church in America today. It is this that we were taught in school that was served up to us in the altered Mass. This nightmare of nebulosity, of confusion, which reduces God, in the end, to that entity described by the great Lovecraft, as ‘Azathoth, the great idiot-god who gibbers senselessly in the centre of eternity, to the piping of insane flutes.’ It is this creature whom the new theologians would like to place on the throne of Heaven. And this is only just, for Azathoth mirrors the diabolic emptiness in the depths of these theologian’s souls. No longer do they dare to say God is dead–instead they say that He and His Church are senile and do not understand modern life. In this they are assisted by the media. These modern prophets do their best to discredit the teachings of the Church as antique.”
RBrown said: “For example, for St Thomas Sacramental theology is really a branch of Christology. For the Counter Reformation Church, it is as a branch of Ecclesiology.”
Brilliant, that. End result back over on the Reformation side in England is the “ordination” of female bishops, for it is a do-it-yourself “church” if there is such a dichotomy between Christ and the sacraments.
Back to the topic: there is no impetus to translate anything about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass if all this has nothing to do with Christ, but only with the elite experts of a hermeneutic of discontinuity.
Cheers!
Fr. Trigilio, I remember the draft translation that was posted in the WWW in 2004. You are correct, it was promplty removed. The current draft is available here:
http://www.finigan.freeuk.com/NewICEL.pdf
It is interesting to observe the extent to which both the progressive-minded AmBishops and the conservative-minded SSPX use the same political tactics of delay, delay, delay, when it comes to approaches/decisions/rulings etc issuing from Our Sweet Jesus on Earth.
And isn’t it interesting to see the similarity in public affirmations of fidelity issuing from those barely hanging onto The Barque of Peter on the Port Side and the like issuing from those barely hanging onto the Starboard Side of The Barque of Peter – and neither side can tolerate the other.
The Pope comes to America and the Bishops just can’t get enough TV face-time to proclaim their fidelity and love and obedience vis a vis The Vicar of Christ – and then we get this vote.
The sspx routinely proclaims they heed and love the Pope and that they are faithful to the Church – and then they reject the five conditions….
Pity poor Pope Benedict having to deal with such unruly,and unwilling to be ruled, passengers.
We all wonder why the Church is in such bad shape when we fail to see in our own selves the private judgment symptoms of the disease of liberalism, the deadliest disease of our time and the sole antidote to which is obedience and fidelity to The Church Jesus established.
I find it interesting that the Bishops were unwilling to table ICEL and produce their own translations during the 1980s and 1990s when ICEL turned out what can best be described as a poor work product. However, after the Holy See demanded ICEL be reorganized, created Vox Clara to oversee the process and issued Liturgicam Authenticam (which began to bear fruit with solid translations) the Bishops are ready to abandon ICEL for their own lights and attempt a translation.
It seems to me that translations are the tip of the iceberg. The underlying problem seems to have more to do 1. with resentment among some of the Bishops that Rome is calling the shots for those of us in America and this is their way of noting a protest, and 2. an uneasiness with translations that are somewhat too Catholic sounding for certain progressive ears, whose formation was in the heady, but confused, days after the Council, when Catholicity was less than valued.
Finally, I would not find it difficult to believe that the same cabal that organized the floor vote that resulted in the election of Bishop Trautman to head the Liturgy Committee are the same group of malcontents that are attempting to hijak and derail the Holy Father’s program for liturgical renewal. This crowd likes neither the reform of the reform nor Summorum Pontificium. However, they might be more amenable to a modern day mainline protestant service -doctrine-lite and all inclusive.
I am hopeful that the Holy See will react in the same way they did with the English translation of the Catechism and the pro multis issue. Note the desires of the local confrence than act in a way that benefits the universal Church.
It does not hurt for the more orthodox among the bishops to recall how St. Nicholas dealt with Arius during the Council of Nicea. While not that extreme, the time does come when adgendas need to be publicly unmasked in a direct manner and forcefully handled.
ALL: Remember that we are NOT talking here about the translation of the Ordinary of Mass, but rather of the Proper Prayers, those that change every day.
No “State of Necessity” here folks. The institution is working perfectly, and in total accord with the Holy Spirit.
so, why dont they just votee on the actual translation then, rather then something they retranslated
IANS,
What is the origin of the phrase “Our Sweet Jesus on Earth”? Presumably you use it to refer to the Holy Father, but I have never seen it before you began using it here.
On 7 July 2008 @ 10:22 p.m., Marcin wrote
“BTW, I wonder how the Holy Synods of the Eastern Churches would work on such issues as vernacular translation? There still couple of them with this task ahead of them. (I guess that’s the question to our Orthodox clergy among readers.) I know that Eastern Catholic American Bishops are currently considering common English text of the Divine Liturgy.”
I’ve seen comments that put the Inter-Eparchial Liturgy Commission’s most recent attempt to update the translation of the Divine Liturgy on a par with the travesty imposed by ICEL in the Latin Rite forty years ago. Hospodi pomiluj. Lord have mercy.
Should anyone say the modern Church has not become a vast lumbering bureaucracy, here is the proof against them.
I wonder why this is not passing. I doubt half the American bishops have sufficient skill in Latin to make the call regarding whether this is a good translation or not. Is somebody stalling in hopes that this whole nasty business of a new translation will just go away?
It took less time for Archbishop Bugnini to create the Novus Ordo and force it upon the Church then it is for the Bishops to approve a new translation!
Yes, and talking about those propers, like the collects, I mean, didn’t the old version rip out a line or two pretty consistently so that what remained was pretty near semi-pelagianism? Once that non-Christ approach takes root, just try to get someone to humbly beseech that almighty God deign to grant us anything, much less His sanctifying grace. After all, the experts tells us that…
Well… anyway… we’re getting to know what the prayer really says!
Cheers!
RBrown said: “For example, for St Thomas Sacramental theology is really a branch of Christology. For the Counter Reformation Church, it is as a branch of Ecclesiology.”
Brilliant, that. End result back over on the Reformation side in England is the “ordination” of female bishops, for it is a do-it-yourself “church” if there is such a dichotomy between Christ and the sacraments.
And on the Catholic side the end result is the invention of new liturgy.
Back to the topic: there is no impetus to translate anything about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass if all this has nothing to do with Christ, but only with the elite experts of a hermeneutic of discontinuity.
Cheers!
Comment by Father Renzo di Lorenzo (Trilogy)
And JRatzinger has over the years been concerned with putting the medieval concept of the action of the Christ the Priest back into the Sacraments–a concept that disappeared with the influence of Scotus.
I used to get the reports and “grey books” back in the 80s. Believe me, this is every bit as tedious as the bishop make it look. There are literally hundreds — HUNDREDS, mind you — of prayer texts through which to go, numbered line by line for easy reference and comment. The comments go to the conference committee, and back to the bishops again. Assuming all is approved, the other conferences in the English-speaking world have to sign off on the whole nine yards as well. Only then does it go to the Holy See for approval.
I used to read the notations the bishops would make. If I had a dollar for each time a request for including the word “quaesemus” (“let us beseech…” or “we beseech thee…”) in the translation was rejected by the committee, I’d be a wealthy man today.
The process had to practically start over in the late 90s when Rome finally intervened after putting up with issues of inclusive language and other “adaptations” for entirely too long. The release of the new “editio typica” of the Roman Missal in 2002 gave the Holy See the pretext for starting the process over, but it’s been going on for a quarter century now.
I’m not making excuses for these guys, but it’s helpful to know the rest of the story. And a recent issue covered here in WDTPRS, concerning sentence structure as it affects translation of a text, was in my opinion a concern of some merit.
I wrote the USCCB and asked “Where can one find how one’s Bishop voted on the English translation of the Proper of Seasons prayers from the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia?”
I received the following back within a few hours:
the votes were by secret ballot..
Sister Mary Ann Walsh
Director of Media Relations
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
3211 4th St., NE
Washington, DC 20017-1194
Ph 202-541-xxxx
Fx 202-541-xxxx
{email:removed to protect the innocent}
What is the origin of the phrase “Our Sweet Jesus on Earth”
St. Catherine of Sienna
The Ukrainians use the word ‘ineffable’ in the English edition of their Liturgy, and it isn’t even their first language….
Father S:
I’ll try to look up the address and post it either tomorrow or Thrusday. Kim
Londiniensis,
The ‘collegiality’ to which the Holy Father refers is not only or exclusively with the current College of Bishops, but with those throughout the ages.
Can we send the Holy Father an email or does it have to be on paper?
benedictxvi@vatican.va
This is why I haven’t gone to the Novus Ordo in two 1/2 years and will never go again. Ever.
If the bishops are so petty that a translation which makes use of the english language is difficult for Catholics, and we have to obsess about what this and that rubric says for the laity to do (when rubrics are supposed to be for the priests and servers) then we are talking about a liturgy which is fundamentally dysfunctional.
We can alleviate all these problems by just using the Traditional Mass.
Is the Pope who put these bishops in place really that great of a Pope?
This is an interesting bit of news, regarding the American rejection of the Proper of Seasons. Ironically Canada has already had the canonical vote on the Proper of Seasons and from what I understand passed it! They also just finished the vote on the Order of Mass II and in August they will finish the canonical vote on the Ritual Masses & Masses for Various Needs and Intentions. Canada always does a mail-in ballot, which seems to allow for a quicker time table. Canada is scheduled to finish its canonical voting in mid-2009. At that time it will submit the entire Missal for recognitio. Given how involved that Rome have been in the process, via the Vox Clara committee, and if there isn’t too many alteration, I would expect a quick approval. Wouldn’t that be intersting, Canada using the new translation a year before the US finishes it voting on it.
From my understanding Canada doesn’t allow retired Bishops to vote, but it seems that the United States does, can anyone confirm this? I wonder if it would have an impact on the voting?
Is the Pope who put these bishops in place really that great of a Pope?
Yeah, he is. Look at the behavior of those Created by God.
Everyone is so negative! I’m exhausted and depressed just by reading some of these comments!
“Pray and don’t worry” (Saint “Padre” Pio).
Is the Pope who put these bishops in place really that great of a Pope?
I’m assuming you are referring to JP II. Personally, I think he was a good pope. He was necessary for the times in that as a Pole, his primary goal and focus was always Eastern Europe (and he made little effort to disguise this). I am not alone in my feelings that he was instrumental in binging down the iron curtain (on par with Reagan in my book). He showed the Poles and other Catholics of Eastern Europe that the world was now watching, and would not simply
look away and shrug as was the case in previous decades. He brought hope and courage to millions of people suffering under Communism and made aliances which ensured its demise.
Was he a great Pope? I think the condition of the church he “handed off” to our present Pope
Benedict (may God bless him and grant him 100 years) speaks for itself.
Seems like a handful of ivory-tower bleeding right-edge traditionalists are spending lots of time and effort trying to “fix” what is not broken. Hope they are spending as much time doing pastoral work (visiting the sick, hearing confessions, providing pastoral counseling, celebrating the sacraments, etc.) than they are wringing their hands over the stalling out of the forthcoming translation. Perhaps the pope is seeing the writing on the wall now, that a change at this time would further diminish the mass attendance in the USA, and thus also the financial support for the Vatican. With enough delays, perhaps there will be no change, ever.
Annibale,
As they say, “it takes two to tango”. The “leftists” in their drum circle (as opposed to the ivory tower of the right) appear to be stiffling the change. The irony is the leftists seem to only want change until they get it their way…then suddenly change is a bad thing.
Boy, I hope those leftists are spending as much time doing pastoral work (visiting the sick, hearing confessions, providing pastoral counseling, celebrating the sacraments, etc.) than they are wringing their hands over the stalling out of the forthcoming translation.
CCu sceccu nasci, sceccu mori.
NEWS ALERT!!!
Bishop Trautman is named as new Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship.
Just kidding you guys :))
Annibale: So, for you there is no connection between joe we pray and what we believe (what we do in the larger world). Got it .
Annibale:
In the larger scheme of labors for the salvation of souls, our first energy has to be spent on proclaiming the Faith and bringing the consolation of the sacraments to the masses. No argument there. However, if the Church is the spouse of Christ, as we believe she is, and a spouse who is deeply in love should speak to her beloved with all the passion and poetry of the Song of Songs, do you really believe that a good translation should not matter? When I go to the altar and speak to God on behalf of the Church, I would like to pray words that are fitting to such a sacred conversation. I would like to speak words that touch the heart and lift the soul to God, the very best words because words change everything.
There are nice words in the present translation, but they aren’t the best we have to offer. Insofar as the language can be improved, it cannot be said that we wish to fix something that isn’t broken. Rather, to not fix and improve is to say that English speaking Catholics could care less. They love the work of the Lord but they do not care to speak nobly to the Lord of the work.
@RBrown,
\”And JRatzinger has over the years been concerned with putting
the medieval concept of the action of the Christ the Priest
back into the Sacraments—a concept that disappeared with the
influence of Scotus.
Comment by RBrown — 8 July 2008 @ 1:59 pm\”
Are you referring to Duns Scotus? I hadn\’t heard this particular
thought before now. Would you be willing to explain it for us, or
give us some sort of reference?
Just curious.
I have one of the first Latin-English missals which was literally translated from the Latin Roman Missal after Vatican II. The English is on one side and the Latin on the other. The bishops would save us the trouble of their endless bickering by going back to the literal translation of Latin-English edition of 1969. Roma locuta est, causa finita!
Annabale,
Let me see if I understand you.
You think the fruits of the New Mass as it is commonly celebrated in the English speaking world have been positive?
Have you looked at
1) Vocation Data?
2) Data concerning the faithful vis. vis. their practice of the faith?
3) Data concerning Church attendance.?
Why don’t you let us all know what the positive effects have been. Please use data to support your arguments.
Annibale,
Perhaps you’d care to explain why a direct scripture quote in the Ordinary, identical in the 1962 and 1970 Missals in the Latin, was changed in the translation of the 1970 Missal to no longer quote scripture. The clause following the quote was also unchanged in the Latin, but nobody would accept the 1970 English version as a “secular” translation.
All you have to do to see the fruits of the american novus ordo (I say american because the latin text does a fine job, when translated properly) is take a look at the level of cathecetical training the average catholic has. The very fact the bishops think that many people are too simple to get it, lends some truth into why IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED, and fixed. Look at how people dress, look at how most act at mass. You would swear you were at a concert, not praise and worship to almighty God. Its not “gobbly gook” or “traditionalist” to give God what He (and he is a He, ) deserves. Why are we here as the old Boston Catechism said? To praise and worship God. Period. One cant accomplish that with barnyard language, and poor body conduct.
Our faith has always been one of intellectualism. its hard to be a catholic. Part of the grace for me is pushing myself to learn new things, like “ineffable”. Just takes a little effort.