UK: Petition to bishops for the TLM

This just in. 

I have a slight problem with this petition, though the idea and motive is certainly good!

Remember that under the provisions of Summorum Pontificum, parish priests don’t need permission or help from the local bishops to establish regular TLM’s in their parishes.

Again, parish priests don’t need for bishops to do what they can do themselves!

Of course only bishops can establish "personal parishes".  Also, if you want a bishop for a Solemn High Mass… well… he needs to want to do it.

But one of the most important things Summorum Pontificum did was take the ball from the hands of diocesan bishops and put it into the hands of parish priests.

In a sense, "personal parishes" could be a way of slowing or isolating into ghettos those who want the older form of Mass.

That said… in what follows, my emphases and comments.

Leading Catholics petition for Latin Mass

Thursday, July 24, 2008, 02:52 PM GMT

As the Catholic Herald reveals this week, leading Catholics including Lord Alton of Liverpool, Bianca Jagger and Dom Antony Sutch have signed a petition asking the bishops of England and Wales to provide more Latin Sunday Masses in the extraordinary form (Tridentine rite).  [Parish priests can do this!]

Bianca Jagger wants to see provision of the Old Rite extended  [Think about this.  If Bianca Jagger can be a devotee of the TLM, isn’t there hope for a few more bishops?]

The petition – which has been signed by Catholics from across the political spectrum – "humbly requests" that the bishops make traditional Masses widely available to the faithful, in accordance with Pope Benedict’s wishes. Progress on this front has been slow, to put it mildly.  [Are they asking bishops to promote the TLM?  Or to get out of the way?]

Signatories include Catholics not normally associated with traditionalist circles, such as the concert pianist Stephen Hough and Robin Baird-Smith, publisher of Continuum Books. He has written on the petition: "Liberal and progressive, I am nonetheless in support of the petition’s aims."

Bianca Jagger, a devout practising Catholic, is well-known as a radical human rights activist; but she also regularly attends Latin Mass at the London Oratory and wishes to see the provision of the Old Rite extended throughout the world.

Prince Rupert zu Löwenstein, former president of the British Association of the Order of Malta, has signed the petition, as have Sir Rocco Forte, a major shareholder in the Catholic Herald, and Peter Sheppard, chairman of the Herald.

Priests supporting the petition include Dom Antony, former headmaster of Downside, Fr Tim Finigan, Fr Dominic Allain and Fathers Julian Large and Rupert McHardy of the London Oratory.

Writers who have signed the petition include Mary Kenny, Cristina Odone, Stuart Reid, former deputy editor of the Spectator, and the historian Desmond Seward.

Prince Albert and Princess Elisabeth von Thurn und Taxis – whose family has been close to the Holy Father since before he was elected Pope – are also among 750 signatories.

The petition, started by Eveline Booth, a young worshipper at the Oratory, reflects concern at lack of official enthusiasm for Summorum Pontificum, the Pope’s Apostolic Letter liberating the older form of Mass, published just over a year ago.

Since then, however, the number of weekly Sunday Masses celebrated in the extraordinary form has increased only very slightly, and traditionalists claim that some dioceses have done nothing to promote the Motu Proprio.

As the Herald reports in detail, the Archdiocese of Liverpool has abandoned plans to create Britain’s first parish dedicated to celebrations of the traditional Latin Mass.

Miss Booth said: "I started going to the extraordinary form and discovered that it was a much more reverent experience.

"I thought it was such a shame that Catholics outside London didn’t have access to this liturgy – and also that some bishops and clergy didn’t even want to know about it. Yet it is the Pope’s wish that the older Mass should be at the forefront of worship."

The petition will be presented to the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales and a copy sent to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, which recently asked the English and Welsh bishops to implement the Motu Proprio more thoroughly.

 I am glad that this issue is being brought to the fore in such a public way.

But I would remind everyone not to fall back into pre-Motu thinking about this. 

These are no longer the days of the provisions of Quattuor abhinc annos

The days of Ecclesia Dei adflicta have come to a close.

This is the time of Summorum Pontificum.  We mustn’t fall into the trap of seeing that the local bishop is the one who controls the entire implementation of the Motu Proprio.

Don’t be distracted.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Fr. A says:

    Father Z, I agree with you 100%! We should not go back to the pre-_Summorum Pontificum_ days at all. Petitions like this, “humbly” begging the bishops, just seem out of place in this day and age, thanks to Pope Benedict XVI. Priests can just simply start saying the extraordinary form on their own.

  2. Patrick says:

    While it is true that the local pastor can put on the EF without asking his bishop, IN PRACTICE priests need encouragement from on high before they do anything. A simple letter from a bishop inviting his priests to respond to SP if they so wish would do wonders. So I think this petition is a great idea.

  3. Therese Bolger says:

    You have the authoritas and knowledge to know how to complain effectively. For an ordinary Catholic in the pew, if the Bishop or Archbishop fobs you off – it is difficult to know how to escalate the complaint. In my former local church there is a priest who has done various things which may or may not constitute doctrinal and fiscal abuse. A canon lawyer might know. A layperson cannot fathom the intracate exceptions of canon law. He is the “priest in charge” – but the nominated parish priest recently disappeared unexpectedly from his own parish – and no replacement has been publicised on the otherwise uptodate parish and diocesan websites. Members of the congregation have written to the Archbishop, expressing disquiet, and been accused in return, of being bigoted against the priest because of his personal circumstances – which are exceptional for a catholic priest. Ironically these people welcomed the man into the parish, and told me I was bigoted for choosing to worship elsewhere, (actually I did not like being lectured on the superior spiritual wisdom of catholic-hating heretics like Bunyan and pantheists like Ghandi from the pulpit). People on blogs talk of referring things to Ecclesia Dei, or Cardinals Hoyas or Levada – but nowhere on any official website is there an easy to understand complaints escalation procedure. So I understand, as an “amateur” catholic, why these celebrities are trying to shame the bishops publicly. Perhaps you could publicise the correct and respectful way to complain to a level above the archbishop in the UK. We are in a window of opportunity to re-establish a beautiful liturgy – but the powers that oppose it are playing a cynical delaying game – and time, unfortunately, may be on their side.

  4. Jim Dorchak says:

    I do not think (even with SP published) that most any, “ANY” priest would go against what his Bishop has made a point of not supporting.

    To do so would in effect be a slap in the face of their Bishop (Betrayal), and though we may not like it, politics are stronger than the provision and feeding of souls in the the Catholic Church.

    The priests in the UK and many in the USA are afraid of the wrath of their Bishops. Look at Altoona Johnson Doicese and many others that I can not remember specifically, where very good, holy, and dear Jesus “TRADITIONAL” priests have been defamed by their own bishop for the SIN of supporting tradition.

    Fr. Z I am sure you know good Priests who have been railroaded (defrocked) or shunned or defamed and who have had their priestly rights removed.

    I know two priest here in SC that have faced punishment for tradiion. It was nasty, terrible, disgusting and full of lies.

    What makes you think that SP changed this status quo? [HUH? Look around!]

    Where would a priest who dared to go against their Bishop go for support? Rome?

    Ha, Ha, Ha, ….Ha, Ha, ……

    Yea like the Church would come their deffence.

    Has not happened.

    Will not happen.


    Jim Dorchak

  5. Woody Jones says:

    The bishops’ dallying in implementing SP is a scandal of major proportions: not only do they not wish to help their flock who might benefit from it, but they are also signalling quite strongly that they believe in the rupture and are just waiting for the Pope to pass on. So is the Pope just an aggravtion for these gentlemen?

    And you wonder why the SSPX is hesitant?

    Frankly I am thinking the Orthodox do not have these kinds of problems…

  6. Baron Korf says:

    Might just be my optimistic way of looking at things, but I think they are asking for the Bishops to be pro-active in this regard.

  7. Jrbrown says:

    So, how long do we think it will take for the ‘clarification’ to be produced? It’s only been a year and two weeks since the promulgation of the motu propprio. I seem to recall some claiming that ‘Rome had a strategy’ and wanted to see the episcopal reaction…well, we’ve seen it, so can we please have the document that says ‘yes, the motu proprio actually means what it says’? I know of many cases in which bishops tacitly or explicitly discourage priests from privately offering the Mass, or publicly offering their services to those in need, despite this being expressly illegal under SP.

  8. Jim Dorchak says:

    Hey those look like sour Apples, not grapes!

    Jim Dorchak

  9. TJM says:

    Dear Father A,

    Although I agree with you that no priest needs his bishop’s permission to celebrate the TLM, I think that a petition of this kind is
    helpful to the cause because the signatories are very prominent and influential and it will ultimately reflect poorly on the bishops
    in a very public way if they prove to remain contumacious on the matter.



  10. FrGregACCA says:

    “Bianca Jagger????” Who knew?

  11. TJ says:

    Any businessman will attest that major changes in a company must be initiated and actively encouraged from the President or CEO, or the program is doomed to fail. If Pope Benedict would only back up his words with some actions then the bishops and priests would feel both the pressure and the support to promote the TLM. I fear, though, that His Holiness is enamored with the so-called “Benedictine arrangement” of the NO altar and has no intention of publicly celebrating the Extraordinary Form. Just two or three times would demonstrate his assertion that the EF is equal to the OF. Instead, it’s beginning to appear that he simply tossed it out there to sink or swim on its own. So who can blame the hierarchy for virtually ignoring it, when the boss is doing likewise?

  12. Freddy says:

    I have good reason to believe that priests in my diocese resist making the Gregorian Mass available for fear of the bishop’s reprisals. He is not fond of the LM and has stated publicly that SM is a concession to older Catholics who miss it when in fact, it is clear that he wants as few laity as possible to have knowledge that the Motu Proprio even exists. Despite the success of many parishes establishing the TLM on a “regular” basis, the vast majority have been met with the door being slammed to further discussion. The excuse in these parts is that priests can’t be spared long enough to learn the LM properly. Bollocks! There’s always an excuse.

  13. Fr. You are right,the well intentioned drive for a personal parish as well as the effort for a special prelature for traditional catholcs really ghettiozes the TLM instead if it becoming part of the average parish’s litutigcal life. Bianci Jagger!!!! This refutes any effort to stereotipe TLM foloweres as merely archconservatives. Forgive teh spelling;my srtroke shows.

  14. Deusdonat says:

    “Bianca Jagger, a devout practising Catholic, is well-known as a radical human rights activist; but she also regularly attends Latin Mass at the London Oratory and wishes to see the provision of the Old Rite extended throughout the world.”

    THIS is what we in the traditional movement need more of. Too often we are seen as dour cloistered self-centered fuss-budgets who are hyperfocused on one and only one issue within the church (being the TLM).

    Bianca – if you’re reading, good on ‘ya, lass.

  15. Bob K. says:

    The problem Father is that these priests are saying no. Not the bishop. It’s sad that this community wants to take over this church, but some community of priests are scared of the EF Mass. They may be part of the Sandlistas for all we know and read about.

  16. TomG says:

    Hey, does anyone know if the aforementioned Dom Antony Sutch is kin to the wacky Screaming Lord Sutch, 3rd Earl Harrow and founder of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party? If so, what fun!

  17. Dark Knight says:

    I don’t think many parish priests – especially those who would want to be a pastor dare risk upsetting a Birkenstock wearing bishop when it comes to the Latin Mass.

    There are a few doing it, but interestingly – these Latin Masses aren’t listed on diocesean websites. Gee, why do you think that is? I suspect it is because we’re working on developing an underground church of our own.

  18. Mitchell says:

    I agree with the brick by brick theory but every house need beams and cinder blocks now and again for additional support. It is time to “shore up” what is being built. It is true that it is a delicate time for the TLM. IF the intention is to reclaim tradition, restore a sense of the sacred (whether it be by gravitational pull on the NO or exclusive celebration of the TLM) then its’ access has to be accelerated. If not we could be in danger of the same polemics that followed the imposition of the NO. I think there is a sense of “Let’s get this overwith already” out there in the pews. It is reflected here in this post.

  19. henrici says:

    Father Z: Sour Grapes awards ordinarily are great fun. However, I have personal knowledge of situations in other dioceses just like those Jim Dorchak describes. Priests wanting to celebrate the TLM are right now being threatened with unrelated trumped-up charges, revocation of faculties, or transfers to boondocks far from the traditional Catholics who desire their service. [Tell me about it! – Fr. Z]

    There are such priests hanging in the fire this very minute. They will almost certainly suffer grievous undeserved damage unless our Holy Father takes prompt action. Only he can do it. Prolongation of the present situation of a slow and uncertain appeal process through channels may well result in the destruction of the careers of some of the finest priests in certain dioceses. In this situation, justice delayed certainly can be justice denied, brutally and with a vengeance. [Yes, a bishop has a thousand ways to hurt a priest. Priests can wins battles and lose wars, big time.]

    I do not know how these individual disasters can be averted without such steps as (1) prompt public celebration of papal TLMs to show plainly the legitimacy of the TLM and the Pope’s support of it to those in authority who still argue that he’s only “tolerating” it and question the legitimacy of all EF aspirations, and (2) prompt publication of the alleged document implementing Summorum Pontificum, with sufficient teeth to provide protection to those priests and lay Catholics seeking to claim their rights under the motu proprio. [Both of those would really help!]

    There are indeed many dioceses where wonderful things are happening. But there are also dioceses where terrible things are happening. They likely will continue to happen until all bishops are somehow “encouraged” to actively promote rather than reluctantly tolerate (and actually sabotage) the TLM.

  20. schoolman says:

    I think such petitions are fine if they are understood as a petition for more RESOURCES to be directed towards the TLM. For example, the Bishop can do much to extend the Motu Proprio by simply providing formal training programs for priests, servers, scholas, etc. These are things that could and should be petitioned for, it seems to me. It will be difficult to implement the Motu Proprio is Bishops are unwilling to direct sufficient resources to ensure that it can develop properly in the life of the diocese.

  21. If it takes aristocrats and star power, fine. By any means necessary.

    Well, I don’t really MEAN that.

    But you know.

    (I’m going to the Oratory next time I’m in London just to see if I can spot Bianca Jagger in a mantilla! She was once a nice girl from Nicaragua, after all….)

  22. TJM says:

    Maybe these priests and bishops are afraid of the TLM because they’re not certain their “product” is altogether that desirable. They simply don’t want to
    risk it with real competition. Tom [I believe you are right about this. And many of them have their identity invested in the way things are done now. The idea that, perhaps, what they have been doing and supporting all along is nearly impossible to bear. – Fr. Z]

  23. Gloria says:

    Probably even worse than the bishops are the “parish councils” of lay people to whom pastors seem to be bound. I know a parish in which the pastor can’t even inform his parishioners about anything without first getting permission from the “council.” Inform people about the Summorum Pontificum? Have to ask the “parish council.” Talk about Communion in the Hand? Have to ask the “parish council.” Want the TLM? Have to ask the “parish council.” I wrote a letter to this particular pastor and asked him to read enclosures I sent with it, including the most recent statements by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos about the Gregorian rite. I put “Personal, Please” on the envelope, knowing that if the secretary opened it, he probably would not even see it. I asked that he please explain the Motu Proprio, which most people in the parish have never heard of. I told him 60+ people signed a petition for the TLM before the MP, gave it to the former pastor and sent a copy to the Bishop. The former pastor was against it in his own right. The Bishop never saw the petition. I know the new pastor gave my letter and enclosures to his “parish council,” because my neighbor, totally hostile to the TLM and tradition, now goes out of his way to avoid me and won’t speak to me. He is on one of those councils. I never heard from the pastor.

  24. Deusdonat says:

    If it takes aristocrats and star power, fine. By any means necessary.

    Let’s be honest, what it REALLY comes down to is good ol’ $$$. If people stopped tithing to their church and neglected the diocesan appeals, instead filling the envelope with “to be paid upon receipt of the requested EF”, then the bishops would get the hint.

    To be honest, I haven’t tithed to my diocese (that is the one here in the US) in over 10 years. All my money goes to Catholic Charities, 2 other orphanages (and sometimes to Catholic Relief Services) and to the chapel I attend run by the FSSP. If more people would visibly and noticeably put their money where their heart is, I think we’d make a bigger impact here.

  25. tertullian says:

    This document provides high-altitude cover to some priests wary of their Bishop. BTW, if Andy Warhol were still with us, he would have insisted upon adding his signature.

  26. Ed the Roman says:

    Andy Warhol was Byzantine, I think.

  27. Lucy says:

    Speaking of money for the parish/diocese. It seems to me in my small part of the world (Fresno, CA) that many of the folks who attend the EF by both the FSSP and a local wonderful priest, are not especially loaded with cash. We are mostly homeschooling families living on one income. I tend to spend my money on Catholic radio, an orphan boy in Guadalajara, and so on. I give very little to my home church. So, speaking from that perspective, our collective monies wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans in the end, nor lead our bishop to recognize our desires.

  28. Joe from Bridgeville says:

    Andy Warhol was indeed a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic.

    At the Mount Saint Macrina monastery in Uniontown, Pennsylvania, there is a park bench dedicated to Warhol and Warhol’s mother.

    I had no idea Bianca Jagger was Catholic.

  29. TJM says:

    Gloria, your pastor sounds like a very weak man and fails to understand the function of a a parish council. I am sorry for your situation. Tom

  30. I agree that a personal prelature is not a good idea for the reasons given but personal parishes have the advantage that the Usus Antiquior forms the centre of the life of the parish rather than being the exception to the norm like an ethnic Mass. Furthermore the opoportunity to offer the TLM regularly in full splendour is greatly increased in a personal parish. The ICRP are giving a splendid example with their personal parishes and I have heard a leading FFSP priest also state that a personal parish is preferable.

    This is not to say that parish priests in regular parishes should not also celebrated TLM but it is harder, especially with the shortage of priests

  31. Geoffrey says:

    We were lucky that our bishop took the lead and fully supported Summorum Pontificum (and even Ecclesia Dei). However when he came to the diocese, he could find no priests who were interested in saying the “old” Mass! The previous bishop had vilified it like you can’t imagine (denying permission at every turn, etc.).

    Has anyone ever heard of this happening? The bishop WANTS the Extraordinary Form available for those who want it, but can’t find a diocesan priest to say it?!

  32. Deusdonat says:

    Geoffrey – I’ve heard of parishes taking that stance. I’ve met with a few in my day. But entire diocese? Nope. That’s a new one.

  33. David2 says:

    Geoffrey, our Emeritus Bishop (who had a reputation as a vociferous liberal) regularly comes ou of retirement to offer Mass in the EF, when required. You can see his delight at doing so, annd seing the young families etc..

  34. Hidden One says:

    That would be the time for the Bishop to take it into his own hands and say the Gregorian Mass himself, often, at his cathedral and elsewhere. [Good on him if he did!]

    And no, I haven’t heard of a situation like that either.

  35. Louis E. says:

    I wonder if,when bishops come to Rome for their ad limina visits,their success in guaranteeing the availablity of the EF to those faithful desiring it is one of the things asked of them?

  36. Craigmaddie says:

    In Scotland I cannot see any visible benefit from Summorum Pontificum. Not one bit. In the Archdiocese of Glasgow it has been made quite clear to the priests by letter that they will not be in the Archbishop’s ‘good books’ if they celebrate the traditional Latin Mass.

    So, yes, in theory a petition shouldn’t be necessary; in practice, it would possibly help those of us who still feel like the proverbial “liturgical lepers”.

    Fr Z, I know that you are against the idea of a personal parish for the traditional Latin Mass for fear it might create ghettoisation. But, to be quite frank, the spread of the usus antiquor will not spread to parishes here for – at the very least – another generation, whilst a great many abuses in the Novus Ordo are tolerated by the hierarchy here. Redemptionis Sacramentum has simply been a dead letter here.

    If there were a personal parish here I could see many young, devout families bringing up their children there – and not being tempted to attend the SSPX chapel, which is what happens here.

  37. jaykay says:

    Craigmaddie says: “…it has been made quite clear to the priests by letter…”

    So is that an instance of actual OPEN defiance of the MP and of the Pope’s clear wishes??? That sounds almost unbelievable. The situation in Ireland is not great, with the exception of the Dublin Archdiocese, but at least it hasn’t gone to that extent.

  38. “Too often we are seen as dour cloistered self-centered fuss-budgets who are hyperfocused on one and only one issue within the church (being the TLM).”

    That’s because it’s occasionally true.

    I know a priest-monk from an abbey, who administers a parish nearby. He has simply informed the bishop’s office, upon their inquiry, that he will celebrate a regular “private” TLM in addition to the regular Mass schedule. The bishop eventually admitted to the priest that he (the bishop) couldn’t touch him (the priest). A jurisdictional technicality, I gathered. Even then, it takes a certain amount of chutzpah.

    Once a very young priest was called into his bishop’s office and told to stop preaching on a particular subject. Seems it was a rather thorny issue for that particular bishop. The priest asked for the order in writing. The bishop, not wanting to go on the record, declined. So the priest informed his bishop that he would presume he had permission to preach on the topic in question. And that was that. The priest’s name was Guisseppe Sarto. He is known better by his other name — Pope Saint Pius X.

    It can happen.

  39. Mitchell says:

    Bianca Jagger, Andy Warhol, What an odd thing to see them both posted here on a Catholic Blog. I did not even know they practiced the faith. The last time I saw those two names together was in captioned photos from Studio 54.

  40. tertullian says:

    Mitchell, any more surprising than seeing Gorbachev on his knees praying at the Basilica of St Francis in Assisi?

  41. Calleva says:

    The petition was an initiative that arose from the comments section on Damian Thompson’s Blog ‘Holy Smoke’. Back in May, we were discussing the upcoming Pontifical Mass at Westminster Cathedral to be said by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos and (IIRC) Damian said what we need is a petition to be handed to the Cardinal at the Mass, which would show that there are people in England and Wales who want the TLM. As you know, our bishops are less than comfortable with SP and as with the USA, some are not helpful in implementing SP.

    Almost at once a young reader offered to set up an online petition and Damian supplied the wording. The petition was addressed to our Bishops as a matter of courtesy, I think, but the effect was intended to be felt more widely. After a few weeks Damian mentioned it again, it had less than 500 names. Almost at once, with the Mass a week away, there was a liberal panic with a savage attempt at sabotaging the petition by adding fake names and offensive comments. This is why you won’t see any names on the petition’s signature page.
    The site is here:

    The petition refers to the availability of the TLM in E & W but anyone may sign it. It hasn’t been closed yet.

  42. Simon Platt says:

    I was pleased to sign this petition. It says

    We, the undersigned members of the Catholic Church, humbly request the Bishops of England and Wales to facilitate wider provision of Sunday Mass in the Extraordinary Form in the dioceses of England and Wales, in accordance with the Holy Father’s apostolic letter Summorum Pontificum

    I don’t think it falls into any of the traps that seem to concern some posters. You can sign it too, at, although your signature and comment will not be visible. I am afraid that this was being abused.

    For some history see

  43. Oliver says:

    This reminds me of the Agatha Christie Mass petition of the 60s which was for the retention of the old Mass for a select few. Since then only a few thousand people attend it and I cannot see a great demand among younger generations of uneducated nominal Catholics. Those who infest the Novus Ordo scene are definitely hostile with bishops planted by the Vatican for their reforming dependability. I can quite understand the celebrity desire for something that keeps them apart from the great unwashed but using the old Mass as some kind of fashionable totem for bored liberal intellectuals, pop artists and minor aristocracy is not what serious traditionalists had in mind. Maybe Damian Thompson wants a change of scene for him and his queer friends.

  44. Louis E. says:

    Cardinal Darmaatmadja announced his response to SP was to ban TLMs in his archdiocese,and he has seen no smackdown.Bishops who want to make obstacles have seen none of their number disciplined for it,and without that,will they be at all reluctant?

  45. Ken says:

    Fr. A and Fr. McA — Until priests indeed start saying Mass on their own on a regular basis, there will always be a need for so-called personal parishes. Over a year has passed since the MP and communicants are still having to drive to Parish A for Sunday Mass, Parish B for the 1st and 3rd Friday Mass, Parish C for the 2nd Tuesday of the month Mass, Parish D for First Saturday Mass…

    Moreover, the traditional sacrament of penance is offered almost nowhere and traditional catechism classes are scattered about, to name just a few examples. Some of us get awfully tired of having up to ten parishes on our GPS because no pastor will step up to the plate and offer the full services of an F.S.S.P. or I.C.R. chapel.

  46. Peter W says:

    Its worth noting that contra to what the ‘Catholic Herald’ and others have been reporting, there is to be no personal parish for the EF in the Archdiocese of Liverpool.

    St Vincent’s aleady has a pastor, and the role of the EF priest will be to do that within the context of an already exiting parish.

  47. “Over a year has passed since the MP and communicants are still having to drive to Parish A for Sunday Mass…”

    Well, Ken, it still takes “over a year” to get through the seminary. And that’s effectively what you’re asking priests to do, go back and learn to say Mass all over again. Many would gladly do it, but many are pretty busy these days. As more of them are able to make the time, it will get easier. But not right away. And setting the Traditional mass apart from the mainstream of the Roman rite is not entirely what the Holy Father had in mind (we’ve read here about the “Marshall Plan,” remember?), which in SOME cases is a disadvantage of personal parishes.

  48. Simon Platt says:

    Peter, Peter!

    This week the Catholic Herald is leading with this news. In case you missed it:

    Or are you telling us that Fr. Henry will be going to St. Vincent’s after all, in some other capacity? Now that would be news!

  49. Matt Q says:

    Father Z wrote:

    “This is the time of Summorum Pontificum. We mustn’t fall into the trap of seeing that the local bishop is the one who controls the entire implementation of the Motu Proprio.

    Don’t be distracted.”

    Father Z, most do understand that fact, however, when one has a bishop like ours ( pray 2011 ) whom refuses to allow his priests to offer the Tridentine Mass, then de facto the bishop totally “controls the entire implementation of the Motu Proprio.” What’s anyone to do then?

    This point brings up what Henrici and I said in the “Asps in Rochester” thread. Bishops carry on with impunity. Whether real or perceived, the result is the same, the bishop lingers and/or his bad behavior continues, evidently with Rome’s permisso one way or the other.

  50. Matt: I think the priests have to act anyway. It’s time for this to stop.

  51. Bryan Dunne says:


    Dear Father Zulsdorf,

    Thank you for mentioning this petition.

    There is a good debate about it on Mr Thompson’s Holy Smoke blog.

    Regrettably Mr Thompson has again claimed that Pope Benedict, gloriously now reigning, is angry or

    annoyed with the Bishops of England and Wales for not implementing Sum. Pont. and in particular, the

    Bishops of Westminster for not assisting at the Solm. Pont. High Mass.

    I question whether attributing views to Pope Bendedict in order to criticize the English Bishops

    is a wise move for those who do wish to see more priests offering the Gregorian Rite.

    I think it bears repeating that I have asked Mr Thompson for evidence to substantiate the views

    he attributes to the Holy Father and Darios Card. Castrillon or desisit from publicizing them.

    Is it any wonder that young priests, indeed any priest, in England and Wales would perhaps

    think twice before speaking to his Bishop about his desire or interest to offer the sacrifice

    of the Mass in the Gregorian Rite when enthusiasts like Mr Thompson use newspaper columns and

    Internet blogs to upbraid and criticize the English Bishops.

    For the past 15 or so years in London at Corpus Xp., Maiden Lane there has been a weekly Missa

    Cantata on Mondays at 6.30pm. I have noticed that the numbers assisting at this Mass have been

    falling steadily over the past three or so years. yes I know some will say that’s because

    it’s on a Monday evening but the congregation used to be double what it is today.

    If the faithful in London do not assist at the Gregorian Rite Masses that have been available

    and established for many years what is the point of this petition?

    I agree with your comment [My comment?] that it is the priests rather than the Bishops who are not, as it

    were, making more Gregorian Rite Masses available. However I am concerned that rumours about

    the views of bishops and the suggestion that there is a possiblity of damage to a career of

    a priest if he does offer the Gregorian Rite are mentioned on this blog and elsewhere.

    If a young priest stops himself from speaking to his Bishop about his interest or desire to

    offer the Gregorian Rite because he is worried it might affect his career prospects I wonder…..

    In caritate Xp.,

    Bryan Dunne
    Harrow, London UK.

    [When posting here, watch your formatting. – Fr. Z]

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