Jacksonville, FL: 23 Feb – TLM Adult Education

From a reader:

The Adult Education Ministry will meet on Monday, February 23rd, at 7PM in the Cody Center.  The topic is "The Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo- The Two Forms of the Roman Rite."
The alternative form of the Mass is now more widely available as a result of Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio (2007) to those who prefer the ancient usage.  The two forms of the Roman Rite are:  the Ordinary Form (the Mass of Paul VI, 1969) in English or Latin, and the Extraordinary Form (known as the Mass of John XXIII, the Traditional (Tridentine) Mass, in Latin only.
The basic differences and principal features will be contrasted in terms of prayers, music, vestments, mood, and rubrics.  Both forms are equal, mutually enriching, and fulfill the Sunday obligation.  "There is certainly a difference of emphasis, but a single fundamental identity that excludes any contradition or antagonism between a renewed liturgy and the preceding liturgy,"  Pope Benedict XVI.  Come and enjoy a lively discussion.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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  1. Mitchell says:

    This is a good idea for every parish to have….That allows both forms of worship to be on equal footing and a fair evaluation of both can be made by the public. Truly great, kudos to the organizer…….

  2. I have been to this parish several times, which is St. Josephs in Jacksonville. They could use a bit of liturgical reform for the ordinary form of the Mass that has included the Alleluia clap-clap and other musical monstrosities. Once I witnessed towards the end of Mass children singing some Hawaiian song (not even religious lyrics) which had the young girls gyrating their hips. Though for the most part they are liturgical abuse free. Just the common Mass as entertainment attitude.

  3. Rachel says:

    I will be there :). Hopefully this will be a positive meeting. Pray for us here in Jacksonville.

  4. Tyler says:

    alas, why couldn’t this be over my spring break so I could be home for it. At least they are making some ground back home. Perhaps this will open the door for the EF a little closer to my home.

  5. Cliff W says:

    I wonder if Bp. Galeone will be there. From my understanding, he has placed certain restrictions for priests who would say the TLM. But he does have a great love of the Mass and the Latin language.

  6. John R. says:

    I’d be happy to see something along the lines of the Knott Missal authorized for Catholic use to replace the Novus Ordo. Maybe the Novus Ordo bishops are too scared to see that, hence their hesitancy with regard to reconciling Anglo-Catholics with the Church.

  7. Tyler says:


    you are correct, or at least if he has changed his statement, he hasn’t published it and it hasn’t had any effect. He has stated he wants priests saying the Mass to understand, not just be able to say the Latin.

    But you are also right on count two, he was a latin teacher and still maintains a good knowledge of it. He is also a pretty good homilist.

  8. MikeInFL says:

    St Joseph’s parish web site.

    Too bad I work 3rd shift an hour away from Jax, though maybe I can get Mon Feb 23 off.

  9. Gail F says:

    That is a great idea and it is explained very nicely too — no polemics, just a nice explanation. I especially like “Both forms are equal, mutually enriching, and fulfill the Sunday obligation.” There is so much emotion caught up in the two forms, it is nice to see a simple and objective statement that isn’t emotional. There is plenty of room in the church for both, and getting people to think calmly about the issue is a big but not impossible job.

  10. Jenny says:

    I am in the process of spreading the word about a blog dedicated to liturgical and sacred music events in Florida. I hope the site will become a point of contact and fellowship for those interested in the renewal of the liturgy in the state. I am especially looking to advertise upcoming events and provide news stories about events.

    If any of the readers here know of any events coming up, please e-mail me at: jdonelso2000 -at- gmail.com and I will post the news.

    The blog can be accessed at: http://musicasacraflorida.wordpress.com.

    Pax tecum.

  11. JML says:

    This would be a good show, or series of shows, on EWTN.

  12. EDG says:

    Neither the Bishop nor his senior clergy like or will even tolerate the Latin Mass. People have been trying to get it for ages at various churches in the diocese, including the Cathedral, only to be met by rudeness, hostility and stonewalling. The only priest in the diocese who was trying to learn it was transferred to the remotest edge of the diocese and would probably have been dumped into the sea if the senior clergy could have figured out a way of doing it without leaving fingerprints.

    While the bishop was a high school Latin teacher at some point in his career, he does not like Latin in the liturgy and, in fact, does not even like good English (he led the fight against the changes to the ICEL translation) because he thinks it is too hard for people to understand. As a result, our liturgy is a mess here, ranging from shades of 1970 to things that look like Protestant “praise song” services. In fairness to the Bishop, he is orthodox, very pro-life, and is a kindly, decent person. He seems to have a mysterious blind spot when it comes to dealing with people who respectfully ask for the TLM, but even so, I like him. I suspect he would be more sympathetic to us if it were not for the constant negative input of some of the entrenched senior clergy of the diocese. The bishop is very timid and shy and is obviously afraid of them, because they have firmly resisted the few things that he has tried to do to restore orthodoxy to a very Protestantized and lax diocese. He’s close to retirement and I think he really doesn’t want any more fights.

    So while I think it is wonderful that the great Una Voce folks are doing this workshop, I think it’s highly unlikely that there will be much change in the Diocese of St Augustine for the next couple of years. But this is good because it lays the groundwork for the future, and sometimes that’s all you can do. Regardless of how much some people fight it, change is coming and the TLM will be back, and workshops like this will help.

  13. Tyler says:


    I am soon to be a seminarian for the diocese, and I am very much interested in learning the EF, and have started to learn it by serving it here at school

    I would be interested to know who that one priest is that you mention, you can tell me at hokies13 @ hotmail .com if you don’t feel like it. I would be interesting in getting to know him, if I don’t already

    And I agree with your analysis of the Bishop. Other than this one spot, which I consider slightly minor, He is a great Pastor, and a great person

  14. MargaretMN says:

    Fr. Z, you should offer an online class on Mass Latin (how much closer to the mission of WDTPRS can you get?) and the TLM. I wonder if you would need permission to teach and how it would would work for an online class. Do you need the OK of your bishop or will any permission of any bishop anywhere in the world suffice?

  15. John says:

    I go to the only TLM in the diocese and I don’t see to much demand for
    the TLM in the diocese. Not many people go to it and when I talk to people about
    it no one really cares to go and if they do they will go once to check it out and that is
    it. I don’t believe we can be too critical of our Bishop. Whether he likes the TLM
    or not, or likes Latin or English, it does not matter. What matters is that people
    desire to go to Mass and enjoy being in the presence of the Lord, worshipping Him
    and adoring Him. People may feel hurt but they need to get over it and learn to
    encourage the use of the NO in greater reverence. Once this happens I believe a greater
    demand of the TLM will occur. I will be at the talk and I am sure it will be one
    sided on the issue of more TLM in the diocese. I will be encouraging people to attend.
    What will be interesting is seeing how many people actually show up for the talk.

  16. Matthew says:

    Folks, this hopefully is the opportunity I have been waiting for.
    If you recall, back in August of 2007, there was a meeting at St.
    Joseph’s that I was unable to attend. I was new in the area at the
    time and figured with the presence of the folks at that meeting as
    well as a Bishop who I perceived at the time to be hospitable to the
    TLM, that soon we’d have one on the southside of town or Mandarin
    area. Boy was I wrong! I am a young father of 3 living in the area
    and so desperate to introduce my family (my wife does not share my
    enthusiasm) to the TLM, yet find it extremely hard to motivate them
    to get going so early on a Sunday (the only TLM is at 8:00 a.m. downtown)
    that I’ve toyed with the idea of taking them to the 10:00 a.m. at
    St Michael the Archangel (I recently was informed by the Diocese of
    Scranton that the Chaplain there is not in good standing with neither
    Scranton or St. Augustine); alas, I haven’t taken them there, either.
    My hope and prayer is that by networking with a local group of people
    at St Joseph’s that we can, through God’s grace as well as firmness
    accompanied by being gentle on our part, convince one of the priests
    (or Bishop) to be sympathetic to our cause. I have asked Fr Ahern to
    say the TLM by was flat-out rejected; I have also asked the priests
    at Blessed Trinity (where my daughters are students) and was told they
    had no interest. Let’s pray; I’ll definitely be there!!

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