ASK FATHER: Holding hands and then raising them up during the Traditional Latin Mass

From a reader…

QUAERITUR:

I have a serious issue. At my TLM a small group of people have started holding hands during the Pater Noster, they hold them while Father sings the prayer and raise them high during the “sed libera nos a malo.” Then they shake hands among themselves after the priest sings the peace greeting. I tried to talk to them but all they said was that there were no rubrics for lay people at the TLM and something about mutual enrichment. Am I making too much out of this by being upset? Should I go to a different Mass?

Ironically, the (then) Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship “repudiated” hand holding back in 1975.  Yep.  Cf. Notitiae 11 (1975) 226.  Holding hands…

“must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority”

It is amusing to think that that applies to the Novus Ordo but not to the Vetus Ordo.

You put your finger on a couple things, or they did: 1) there are no rubrics for people at the TLM and 2) something about mutual enrichment.

The mutual enrichment part crumbles a little because the practice of holding hands as a congregation is not to be invited or encouraged.  It is to be repudiated in the Novus Ordo.

I don’t know your community, of course. However, I suspect that these are folks who have found their way to the TLM after having been a liberal-leaning parish where hand-holding and so forth is the custom.  It is probably what they know.  Not my cup of Mystic Monk, but it is theirs.  Shaking hands.  Definitely not my thing.   But it is what they know.

If that is the case, it is terrific that they are at your place’s TLM!

They are finding their way to a richer experience!

That’s wonderful, isn’t it?

Give them some time.   They may have to acclimatize.

Should you go to a different Mass because they are doing those Novus Ordo-y things?

I am reminded of the curmudgeon character Clint Eastwood plays in Grand Torino.  He is really put off by those weird Hmong people who moved in next door.  He and they eventually develop rather grudging mutual respect, but it takes a while and it ain’t easy.

Maybe the best approach is just to smile to yourself, say “They’ll get it eventually!”, and pay attention to your own full, conscious and active reception of the priest saying the Pater Noster.

I’ve been writing for a long time about the demographic sinkhole opening up under the Church here.  The fact is that lots of “nones” will stop even pretending to embrace the family religion.  Also, the inexorable movement of time is applying the “biological solution” to us all.  We will lose a lot of seasoned Catholics and, with them, their financial support.  Their children are already going and gone. Corona lockdown melodrama, COVID Theater, has accelerated the opening of the sinkhole.  I suspect that quite a few people who barely went to church will disappear pretty much for good.

As the sinkhole widens, two main groups will stay strong, those who want Tradition and also those who converts from an evangelical background and some charismatics with sound devotions.

These groups will find each other. 

There will be some friction points along the way, but they will begin to integrate.   

That’ll be something to see.

It could be that you are witnessing something of this mutual discovery and friction.

Think about it: Is there anything wrong with people holding hands during the Our Father?  Of course not.  People should not be brow-beaten into doing it, or exhorted to.  People have the right to be left alone at Mass and not hold some else’s hand.  But if people in a household who love each other are moved to hold hands during the Pater Noster of the Traditional Latin Mass and then raise them as if in victory and praise at the phrase: libera nos a malo… deliver us from evil… is that really such a bad thing?

I have in mind the psalm priests are to recite when they incense the altar at the offertory of the Traditional Mass:

Let my prayer, O Lord, be directed as incense in Thy sight: the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice. Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth, and a door round about my lips. May my heart not incline to evil words, to make excuses for sins.
May the Lord enkindle within us the fire of His love, and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen.

There is a strong streak in US trads, I surmise, a desire for order.  We like to have things be tidy and predictable.   For some people the idea that others are not kneeling at the right time (even though these “rubrics” are rather arbitrary for the congregation and have come to be custom) gives some people the shivers.  We have to relax a little.  That doesn’t mean chaos.  That might mean not worrying if someone is doing something a little different.We are looking at a horizon that portends some real changes.   We are going to have to be flexible and agile.  We are going to have to learn  – different groups of committed Catholics having different styles and emphases – to improvise, adapt and overcome what we face on that horizon, what we face from that yawning sink hole.

I’ve gone from “sink hole” imagery to “horizon” imagery.  Sorry.   I think you get my meaning.

Oh… about that Grand Torino analogy.  It just occurred to me that the end isn’t the very best for your scenario and that the Clint Eastwood character did not take the priest’s advice.

So… ignore that part.

 

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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27 Comments

  1. Jack007 says:

    “the Clint Eastwood character did not take the priest’s advice.”

    [SPOILER REMOVAL]
    Spes!

  2. Netmilsmom says:

    Personally, I would tell them that using the orans position for the Our Father is usurped from the Eastern rites. The prayer posture at my Chaldean rite parish is the Hands Extended position.

    Cultural appropriation is not good. :)

  3. JustaSinner says:

    Is Mass a participation event? Must I commune and communal with the community about me? Or is it acceptable for me to focus on the Lord, the Priest during Eucharist? I want to be left alone in my worship world/mode.

  4. grateful says:

    kinda reminds one of recent bible stories :-)

  5. moosix1974 says:

    Our diocesan TLM parish has grown by over 50% this past year. The only one in the entire diocese to grow and not shrink. It has been a little difficult being an “old timer” there as the growth has brought a wide variety of people bringing with them the NO mindset. Some came solely because we don’t require masks and a bunch of other measures (that were not required by the bishop, but the other parishes continued to do so), and were not prepared for the TLM. Many fell in love with it and others are trying. For the most part, it’s going okay, but there is going to be an adjustment period. I think the concern is that the new peeps are going to “Novus Ordo our TLM.” We do have a culture of traditionalism, so when people seem to be outside that, it’s grating. I guess it’s kind of like walking into someone’s home and just “doing their own thing” and not being self-aware that you’re in a different environment than your own home. As the saying goes, “When in Rome…”

  6. JonPatrick says:

    I think we have to realize how different it is for people transitioning from the Novus Ordo to the Vetus Ordo. In the NO the concept of the Mass as a re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is really deemphasized and instead it is more the shared meal. Suddenly one goes from that environment where dialog and participation are emphasized to one where seemingly the priest and servers are up there behind the rail doing their thing almost as though the congregation isn’t there. We have to cut them some slack as they get used to this different way of worshipping, one that in the end will I think bring them closer to that holy fear of God, fear in a good sense.

  7. catholictrad says:

    Goodness knows the Novus Ordo folks have to give me plenty of slack on the rare occasion I visit their Mass. Invariably, “Et cum spiritu tuo”, “sed libera nos a malo”, etc. along with kneeling at the Sanctus and Angus Dei, and inability to sing the song on the way to reception and sing the song instead of praying after reception. Plus their need to climb over the poor old schmuck praying thanksgiving with fingers in his ears after the end of Mass.

  8. Raphael Sabadim says:

    We must be careful not to give in to prideful correction of our brothers (which I see is a big problem with Traditionalists, specially recent converts)
    Instead we must pray for them to receive clarity and feel charitable towards them.

  9. Rod Halvorsen says:

    Growing up Protestants, I and my wife acquired extensive liturgical, doctrinal and life experience among numerous Protestant groups before converting to the Catholic faith at ages 48/47 respectively. We were converted in a novus ordo parish under the orthodox catechesis of a young priest. During RCIA and immediately following, we saw things in the NO that we could not reconcile with the orthodox teaching we experienced in RCIA and eventually gravitated toward and have now for years been happily and staunchly situated in Traditional Latin Mass communities.

    I rarely disagree with Father Z but this time I have to say I do.

  10. mamajen says:

    “I have a serious issue…”
    “…my TLM…”
    “I tried to talk to them…”

    It wasn’t until the last sentence of the question that I realized this was not the priest.

    Why worry?

  11. OK_doc says:

    A few thoughts:
    1. Our pastor has pointed out that priests and lay people have different roles, not only for Mass but in the rest of our lives. He has indicated that if the behavior of others in dress or actions are of concern to us during Mass, unless immediately threatening, we should discuss with him and not try correcting the behavior ourselves. Father is likely unaware of the actions of those who are holding hands since he is facing God and not the congregation. Speak to him, inform him and let him decide what actions need to be taken.

    2. I choose to wear a long veil during Mass. A personal benefit of this is that when my head is bowed in prayer, the sides of the veil shield my face and decrease the distraction of those around me. Unable to tell from your question if wearing a veil is appropriate for you but trying to avoid being distracted is always helpful during Mass.

    3. Finally, some of the best advice I ever got was “don’t let them have rent in your head for free.” If this behavior is enough for you to consider going to a different Mass, they are definitely renting space for free in your head. This distraction is not enough to jeopardize your inner peace for.

    Peace be with you.

  12. The purpose of rubrics is to say what is done, not what is not done.

  13. Semper Gumby says:

    mamajen: Read it again, you missed something. Also note the ostentatious behavior, sincere or not, said to be “mutual enrichment.” Cheers.

  14. MKrzem says:

    It’s important for all of us to remember that the future of the Church will consist not in everybody becoming a “trad” (or Neo-trad to be more accurate), but rather, in the integration of the best elements in the various strong streams of the Church. As the various streams come together around traditional worship, everybody will have things to learn from the others.

  15. bigtex says:

    “But if people in a household who love each other are moved to hold hands during the Pater Noster of the Traditional Latin Mass and then raise them as if in victory and praise at the phrase: libera nos a malo… deliver us from evil… is that really such a bad thing?..”

    That’s probably what some well-meaning priests thought 30 0r 40 years ago when this nonsense first started in the N.O., and look how ridiculous it’s become.

    MKrzem,
    Sorry have to disagree, but Tradition is the answer. There’s a reason it developed organically over centuries.

  16. Semper Gumby says:

    MKrzem: That was tactful, there’s something to be said for that. But it’s also important to remember that of the various streams one is the Mass of Ages, the other stream’s chief architect is Bugnini. In vending machines across this planet there are Twinkies older than the Bugnini liturgy.

    JustaSinner: In this crazy mixed-up world there are those who would deny others the reverence due to God. When at the TLM and Chet in cargo pants and Buffy in yoga pants approach with a huge grin and hands extended for a mid-Holy Mass chat, that may be a good time to deploy the Liturgical Joy Buzzer. It’s Joy, so it’s Mutual Enrichment.

    “I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.”

  17. Semper: In vending machines across this planet there are Twinkies older than the Bugnini liturgy.

  18. Let us be a little careful with people when they come for the first time. Not everyone is ready for in-processing.

  19. Imrahil says:

    I tried to talk to them but all they said was there were no rubrics for laypeople.

    Which means that they grasped the Trad spirit better than the original writer, who for some unimaginable reason seems to have made this “a serious issue”. And even if it were, in the abstract, advisable to talk to them, he shows himself to be unqualified for the job by being upset; and by apparently not even bothering to do the casuistry about whether they might be sinning, etc.

    As it were, once again the most practical thing to know about the work of mercy “admonishing the sinners” is that the usual people who usually do it had better not do it and just keep their mouth shut.

    That being said, how anyone might wish to hold hands during the Our Father for genuine liturgical reasons is beyond me, and while I’m quite the exception in accepting and liking a decently-condensed sign of the peace in the Novus Ordo, I also can’t see how they can’t see it doesn’t quite fit in in a TLM.

    The point, though, is that this is not the point; I might not understand them, but the walls of my understanding are not laws for my fellowworshippers, not even entirely perhaps if I were priest and celebrant, but not at all, nowise, when I’m a mere layman myself. Let those who wish the congregation to act as a uniform mass go to the Novus Ordo, where this at least makes some sense considering the ideas of that rite (though I doubt they’d ever be better than a military battalion doing drill and ceremony when trying).

    In the Old Rite, where even to begin with the priest does one thing and the congregation a different thing (such as singing or listening to the schola) – coming together at the climaxes and forming one coherent prayer of course – it doesn’t.

  20. Semper Gumby says:

    Fr. Z: As the Good Book says, “Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatsoever else you do, do all to the glory of God.”

    Twinkies are a boon from Heaven. Every household that serves the Lord should have a pallet or two in the basement.

    When a tree falls and damages your house Twinkies, properly aged and cured, can be used profitably for repairs. In a post-apocalyptic wasteland individually-wrapped ingots of golden goodness are the payroll to be delivered by horse and cart to tribal hill chieftains who will then fight the marauding bands of mutant transhumanists molesting your livestock. Also, Twinkies balance the Four Humours.

  21. Ariseyedead says:

    I read the title of this post and thought, “BARF!”
    OK, now I’ll go back and read it and form some rational thoughts to accompany my visceral feelings.

  22. Sportsfan says:

    My point of view: There is no need to sit down for 8 seconds after the incensing of the assembly and before the Dominus vobiscum to complete the Secret. I’m all for taking a load off but really?

    Alternate (a.k.a. nonlogical person’s) point of view: The missal says “STAND.” I should be sitting at this time or the missal wouldn’t instruct me to “STAND.”

  23. MKrzem says:

    bigtex: Catholic Tradition is broad enough to accommodate various streams of theology and piety, as it has done in the past. Catholicism has always had various flavours and shades — varying between individuals, parishes, schools, regions, countries, religious orders, etc. All within the bounds of tradition and orthodoxy.

    Semper Gumby: By “streams”, I don’t mean liturgical rites, I mean emphases and approaches to theology and piety, of which there has always been a range within the Church.

  24. mater101 says:

    May I just ask: That so closely following the Consecration , with Jesus newly present within our midst, why is our attention diverted to our physical neighbor instead of doubling down on focusing on Christ and praising Him ? We should be on our knees or prostrate before Him !

  25. Semper Gumby says:

    MKrzem: Interesting. I’d like to make a few observations.

    Yes, there has always been “a range of emphases and approaches to theology and piety in the church.” ‘Tis true, to say the least. There’s been some real characters in the Church these last twenty centuries doing and writing all sorts of things, there are some amongst us today. Keeps things interesting.

    Your theory is: “As the various streams come together around traditional worship…”

    Let’s introduce your theory to more reality.

    There is no guarantee at this moment in time, given a Vatican lapsing into paganism and the Church in Germany transforming into a national secularized church, that “streams” will coalesce into traditional worship. People, faithful people, have to make an effort. That effort by the faithful requires taking a closer look at history and current events. Without a recognition of the importance of both individual human effort and situational awareness, one might erroneously assume that streams coalescing is inevitable. Such an assumption is merely a retreat into the stale thought of Hegel and Marx- a dead-end alley that denies Free Will, Good Works, the Great Commission and ultimately God.

    You add: “…everybody will have things to learn from the others.”

    From the stream comprised of Pachamama, 2+2=5, Sorondo, Bugnini, Max Beans, MS Winters, Sorondo, McCarrick, Death Party Dear Leader Biden, Chelsea Clinton at the Vatican, Jeffrey Sachs, clergy and laity doing the Electric Boogaloo in front of the altar, and SJWs in the Church who cannot grasp the Parables and view history not as Salvation History but as (h/t George Weigel) “the exhaust fumes of the means of production” the lesson will be, as the faithful have already grasped: Don’t do that. Cheers.

  26. MKrzem says:

    Semper Gumby:

    To be clear, I was referring in my post to orthodox groups and streams within the Church, not to heterodox, heretical, or modernistic tendencies.

    As Fr. Z pointed out:

    “As the sinkhole widens, two main groups will stay strong, those who want Tradition and also those who converts from an evangelical background and some charismatics with sound devotions.
    These groups will find each other.
    There will be some friction points along the way, but they will begin to integrate. ”

    My point was that the integration of the good groups will be a two-way street.

    Cheers

  27. Semper Gumby says:

    MKrzem: Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

    In your patience and charity allow me to briefly recap:

    Monday: “As the various streams come together…”

    Tuesday: “By “streams”, I don’t mean liturgical rites, I mean emphases and approaches to theology and piety, of which there has always been a range within the Church.”

    Today: “To be clear, I was referring in my post to orthodox groups and streams within the Church, not to heterodox, heretical, or modernistic tendencies…My point was that the integration of the good groups will be a two-way street.”

    An excellent distinction, MKzrem. Thanks. Cheers.

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