I just learned that the Romanian Orthodox have the title for priests:
Great Ecclesiarch
WOW!
We need titles like this!
Fr. Z’s Podcasts RSS Feed
About this blog…
“This blog is like a fusion of the Baroque ‘salon’ with its well-tuned harpsichord around which polite society gathered for entertainment and edification and, on the other hand, a Wild West “saloon” with its out-of-tune piano and swinging doors, where everyone has a gun and something to say. Nevertheless, we try to point our discussions back to what it is to be Catholic in this increasingly difficult age, to love God, and how to get to heaven.” – Fr. Z
Coat of Arms by D Burkart
YOUR RECENT COMMENTS
- on So very cool that it needs its own post! VOYAGER 1 is TALKING AGAIN!: “Our finite brains can’t comprehend the infinite. If we could understand, we’d be God.”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “AML LEUKEMIA – RARE BUT MOST AGGRESSIVE AND DEADLY. AML can present full blown from one day to the next.…”
- on ROME 24/4– Day 38 (-3): I have a little list.: “acard: The tricky part is getting good mozzarella. Most of what is labelled mozzarella in the USA (especially not in…”
- on ROME 24/4– Day 38 (-3): I have a little list.: “You’ve inspired me to make a caprese salad! I’ve never had one.”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “Please pray the repose of the soul of a good priest and (I think) distantly-connected relative, Father James Brady. 50+…”
- on WDTPRS – 4th Sunday after Easter (Vetus Ordo): “[T]he smoke of Satan has entered into the temple of God”: “It’s what Paul VI said after his reference to the smoke of Satan that is, to me at least, even…”
- on ROME 24/4– Day 38 (-3): I have a little list.: “hwriggles4: It is a “Keepgo”. I still have and use it now and then, although the terms of use of…”
- on So very cool that it needs its own post! VOYAGER 1 is TALKING AGAIN!: “adriennep, that’s what I mean, it’s the same question I had in grade four. I’m just as stymied by the…”
- on ROME 24/4– Day 38 (-3): I have a little list.: “Fr. Z: Looks like you have had a good trip. Say, a few years ago (you discussed phones in this…”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “Re. the great (not an epithet I use overly freely) Fr Hunwicke: yes, I’m concerned that he has now not…”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “For the reversion of my fallen away family members and the conversion of the other members. For the repose of…”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “I was worried about Fr Hunwicke as he hasn’t posted on his blog for three days now. Please pray that…”
- on YOUR URGENT PRAYER REQUESTS: “Our prayers for Your Mother and for You. My Mother died 36 years ago and I still miss her everyday.…”
ABORTION PILL RESCUE NETWORK
Everyone, work to get this into your parish bulletins and diocesan papers.
Federated Computer… your safe and private alternative to big biz corporations that hate us while taking our money and mining our data. Have an online presence large or small? Catholic DIOCESE? Cottage industry? See what Federated has to offer. Save money and gain peace of mind.
Polls
Loading ...Use FATHERZ10 at checkout for 10% off
Donate using VENMO
GREAT BEER from Traditional Benedictine Monks in Italy
CLICK and say your daily offerings!
A Daily Prayer for Priests
NEW OPPORTUNITY – 10% off with code: FATHERZ10
Fr. Z’s VOICEMAIL
Nota bene: I do not answer these numbers or this Skype address. You won't get me "live". I check for messages regularly.
WDTPRS
020 8133 4535
651-447-6265
This REALLY helps! And it’s great coffee (and tea)
I use this when I travel both in these USA and abroad. Very useful. Fast enough for Zoom. I connect my DMR (ham radio) through it. If you use my link, they give me more data. A GREAT back up.
This blog has to earn its keep!
PLEASE subscribe via PayPal if it is useful. Zelle and Wise are better, but PayPal is convenient.
A monthly subscription donation means I have steady income I can plan on. I put you my list of benefactors for whom I pray and for whom I often say Holy Mass.
In view of the rapidly changing challenges I now face, I would like to add more $10/month subscribers. Will you please help?
For a one time donation...
To donate monthly I prefer Zelle because it doesn't extract fees. Use
frz AT wdtprs DOT comBe a “Zed-Head”!
PLEASE RESPOND. Pretty pleeeease?
Loading ...This is really useful when travelling… and also when you aren’t and you need backup internet NOW! I use this for my DMR “Zednet” hotspot when I’m mobile. It’s a ham radio thing.
If you travel internationally, this is a super useful gizmo for your mobile internet data. I use one. If you get one through my link, I get data rewards.
WDTPRS POLL
Loading ...Fr. Z’s stuff is everywhere
Help support Fr. Z’s Gospel of Life work at no cost to you. Do you need a Real Estate Agent? Calling these people is the FIRST thing you should do!
They find you a pro-life agent in your area who commits to giving a portion of the fee to a pro-life group!
GREAT causes to support
Help Monks in Wyoming (coffee – UPDATED LINK) and Norcia (beer) and the wonderful "Soap Sisters" of Summit, NJ!
Please follow me on Twitter!
Loading ...
I never heard of that before. You’re not thinking of going Romanian Orthodox on us, are you Father? ;-)
I’m all for bringing back the style “Your Reverence”.
Is this a title for all priests, or just for certain ones — like “Monsignor”?
The term “Great Ecclesiarch” apparently was adopted in Romania mirroring the use of the Patriarchate of Constantinople where Patriarchal officials and those of the “Great Church” (Aghia Sophia) were routinely given the honorific “Megas” (“Great” or “Grand”) to distinguish them from officers of other dioceses and churches. Just a few:
Grand Chancellor
Grand Archdeacon
Grand Ecclesiarch
Patriarchal Deacon
Archon Protopsaltis (Headchanter)
Archon Lambadarios
Grand Sacristan/Treasurer
Grand Dragoman (translator/external affairs officer)
It is more or less the equivalent of “Papal” in the West.
“Grand Dragoman” — sounds like a super villian!
By the way, one of the primary duties of the Great Ecclesiarch is to walk slightly behind the officiating Patriarch holding the book of rubrics. The Great Ecclesiarch corrects everyone from the Patriarch down to the youngest altar boy should they make any liturgical mistakes or innovations. He is not the equivalent of the Western Master of Ceremonies since he is not vested. That duty usually is fulfilled by the First Patriarchal Deacon.
I believe “dragoman” is actually a Turkish word and was the “Interpreter” (more so than translator)for each embassy dealing with the Sublime Porte, the Ottoman government. The Patriarchal Dragoman was the “Grand Dragoman”. I believe the Roman Catholic Church made use of the dragoman at the French Embassy.
So is the Mega-Ecclesiarch analogous to one of the seven Protonotaries Apostolic de Numero Participantium?
How do I get to be one of these?
Great Ecclesiarch
Step 1: Become an Ecclesiarch
Step 2: Be very good at it.
Okay… assuming we can actually run into a Great Ecclesiarch, how do address him?
how do address him?
In Romanian, of course!
The Great Ecclesiarch is an archimandrite so he would be addressed in English as “Very Reverend”. I believe the Greek is “Panosiotatos” which is literally “All Venerable”.
Forgive me, Fr. John, but does there have to be an us and a them? If you like, I can ask my Romanian Orthodox friends the answer to your question, or even direct them to you so they can answer you directly. I was taught that Christianity is the noun and Orthodoxy (or Catholicism) is the adjective and I firmly believe this. And I know of some monastic priests that get addressed as your venerableness, and not all monastic priests are archimandrites. As you probably know, an archimandrite is “one step below” a bishop, and usually bishops get picked from among the ranks of archimandrites, in the Orthodox church. What would we lose by unifying as a Church? Our prejudices?
I suspect that “Orthodox” or “Roman Catholic” are significantly more than just adjectives. The term “Your Venerableness” is how an unordained monk is addressed in the Orthodox Church.
Nick, please do not correct me, I know one priestly monk who is called “Your Venerableness” by anti-Christians even who idolize him. I also am not going to argue with the wisdom of the priest, now bishop, who taught me the difference between adjectives and nouns as it applies to Christianity. I do not wish to engage in controversy on Father John’s blog, in part because I don’t want to get blamed for it. I am not sure there is anything further for you and I to discuss on this matter.
I’ve been reading the Letters of St. John of the Cross and, in his time, there
was apparently the practice of addressing seminarians as “Your Charity”
“By the way, one of the primary duties of the Great Ecclesiarch is to walk slightly behind the officiating Patriarch holding the book of rubrics. The Great Ecclesiarch corrects everyone from the Patriarch down to the youngest altar boy should they make any liturgical mistakes or innovations. He is not the equivalent of the Western Master of Ceremonies since he is not vested. That duty usually is fulfilled by the First Patriarchal Deacon.”
The rubrics of the full, unabbreviated hierarchical services of the Byzantine Rite are so complicated that I guess even the rubrics masters need to tote a rubrics
book along!
That having been said, I chuckled a bit about the “innovations” thing. In fact,
the Ecumenical Patriarchate has taken the lead in liturgical innovations in the
Orthodox Church since the 19th century. (For example, the practical suppression of the
singing of Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes in the Divine Liturgy) Athos, though, has never accepted these liturgical reforms.
innovations.
At present, it is the Slavs and Romanians who tend to keep the older Typikon and more ancient way of doing services.
However, I have been assured by a couple of Greek chanters that Patriarch
Bartholomew is a liturgical restorer. I’ve been told, for example, that the
services in the Patriarchal Cathedral today are “fuller” and unabbreviated, unlike
in the days of Patriarchs Athenagoras (who introduced many innovations into the
Patriarchal liturgies) and Demetrios. He has apparently also ordered the restoration
of parts of the Divine Liturgy that had fallen into desuetude in many Greek parishes (the prayers
for the Catechumens, for example).
Okay… assuming we can actually run into a Great Ecclesiarch, how do address him?
Maybe with the words, “Sorry, my foot hit the gas when I meant to hit the brake”?
:-D
Please don’t ban me for having an awful sense of humor . . . .
I stand corrected. In the Orthodox Church simple monks as well as priestmonks who have not been to theological school are addressed as “Osiotatos” “Your Venerableness”. Priestmonks (not archimandrites) who have been to theological school are addressed rather as “Osiologiotatos” “Your Learned Venerableness” (which certainly sounds much better in Greek, Russian or Rumanian). In the West titles seem to have been simplified.
“Great Ecclesiarch” still isn’t as good as “His Hermeneuticalness\”.
Fr Z, in case you’re interested (probably not) your own mode of address in my particular circle is “His Profundity”. This is usually accompanied by full bodily prostration and, if to hand, the waving of palm branches in an appropriately enthusiastic yet reverent manner.
Better still, in Egypt there is a the “Great Ecclesiarch of the Throne”
http://www.spc.yu/eng/visit_venerable_primate_alexandrian_church_patriarchate_georgia
A friend once met a Russian monk who was a mitred archimandrite; the fellow was very humble, and tried to avoid mention and use of his grandiose title (he even gave away his mitre), since, as he put it, if he were to die and be canonized his saintly title as a monk would actually be shorter than his earthly appellation!
Well, the title of “The Great” is a term given to Popes through popular acclamation.
Therefore, I vote that we just popularly acclaim Fr. Zuhlsdorf.