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“This blog is like a fusion of the Baroque ‘salon’ with its well-tuned harpsichord around which polite society gathered for entertainment and edification and, on the other hand, a Wild West “saloon” with its out-of-tune piano and swinging doors, where everyone has a gun and something to say. Nevertheless, we try to point our discussions back to what it is to be Catholic in this increasingly difficult age, to love God, and how to get to heaven.” – Fr. Z
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YOUR RECENT COMMENTS
- iamlucky13: For all their enthusiasm over Vatican II, the article is surprising ly short on details about the frustratio n I assume they must have shared that so little of Sacrosanct um Concil...
- iamlucky13: The most coherent explanatio n I can come up with is Mr. Faggioli is a flat-earth er.
- abasham: Others have pointed out the definition of “ori entalism 8221; that I think ol’ Beans is going for here, but I’ll add that a significan t part of this “ori ental...
- Semper Gumby: Thanks Fr. Z for the podcast. A masterpiec e of a speech. A tactical masterpiec e at Gettysburg was performed by Col. Joshua Chamberlai n and the 20th Maine at Little Round Top. Great...
- Fr. Thomas Kocik: I’ve often said that to denigrate ad orientem worship in the Western Church is not only to suggest that the Latins had been “doi ng it wrong̶ 1; all those centur...
- Fr. John: Great idea Father, some of us do not have “Arms” and I would love to research this more. Any suggestion s for resources? Zenit reported several years ago that the Vatican was going to...
- Robert_Caritas: Interestin gly, I heard that Golias, the French NCR, is staffed in large part by former priests and seminarian s. No one else I think would be interested in the ideologize d brand...
- Greg Hlatky: I suppose the OF Mass can be reverent and dignified. I’ve never been to one like that. My experience has been more “The Father Tom Show, with special guest Jesus Christ,...
- BrionyB: God bless Fr Marcus, and all the faithful young priests out there.
- JesusFreak84: So all of those sites are ticking off the right people. Got it.
- cwillia1: I think faggoli 217;s point is a little clearer if you replace ad-orienta lism with ad-oriente m-ism. His post is a cheap play on words but I don’ t see any insult to Eastern...
- Joe in Canada: I’m not a theologian . I belong to the Latin church and have worked in one of the Eastern Catholic churches, and have an advanced degree in Byzantine studies, and this makes no...
- Mario Bird: I can’ t see the name “Cor ky” without thinking of Waiting for Guffman. Perhaps, as a sign of walking together, a “Rem ains of the Day” lunchbox would set...
- LeeGilbert: When we first came out here to Portland in 2008 we discovered a Latin Mass parish, St. Birgitta’s , from which came many vocations to the priesthood and religious life. Based on this...
- crjs1: Orientalis m, according to Edward Said, is how Western scholarshi p and popular culture views and presents non-wester n society as inferior to the west, so legitimisi ng western interve...
- vetusta ecclesia: They are died-in-th e-wool Protestant s. Plenty of “ecclesial bodies” they can join!
- Unwilling: Agree with Dan re John xxiii. Can anyone point to the main cause or origin of the theologica l craziness and pastoral self-destr uction that (as far as I can tell) emerged and explo...
- SebastianHvD: I think he means that building your altar “ad orientem 8221; only makes sense in the western world, whereas the churches east of Jerusalem should actually build them to the...
- Benedict Joseph: “The y came home aflame …” You can say that again, and here we are today. Talk about the attempt to turn a swine̵ 7;s ear into a silk purse̷ 0;will no one rid...
- chantgirl: I wonder if these men are using the term clericalis m in the same vein that Francis and his cronies are. If so, are they blaming the sex abuse crisis on clericalis m in order to usher in...
- Gab: @BrionyB “My personal observatio ns are that (1) the most reverent OF Masses tend to be those said by priests who also say the EF;” That has been my experience also. One of the...
- frjimt: in the 35th anniv of my class: mount st mary’ ;s, emmitsburg , we count very few who’ ve left, 2 bishops (Dallas & Oklahoma city) & a great number of us shepher...
- Unwilling: Agree with Fr Charles that the allusion intended is to Said’ ;s Orientalis m. https://en .wikipedia .org/wiki/ Orientalis m_(book) Fundamenta l to Said’ ;s doctrine (which...
- JustaSinner: Silly me, I thought ‘arms’ were for Tactical Shotguns in appropriat e priestly colorsR 30; [That too.]
- Amerikaner: NCR always gives me good laugh̷ 0; like The Onion.
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- Beans v. the East – @MassimoFaggioli cheapshots Orientals
- The effect of the Extraordinary Form on vocations to the priesthood
- Dinosaur Media attack on Catholics who uphold Faith and Morals
- Truly pathetic musings at the Fishwrap about priesthood and those halcyon days of Vatican II
- 19 Nov 1863: The Gettysburg Address
- Christmas, Priests, Arms, and You
- Reliable Catholic and Pro-Life Causes
- “”Transphobia is a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons”.
- ASK FATHER: My priest doesn’t carry the “emergency phone”
- Sweetheart Grips and Fortune’s Wheel
- ASK FATHER: Absolution from a heretical priest and then going to Communion
- Your Sunday Sermon Notes
- To Prelates: “Don’t Pee on My Leg and Tell Me It’s Raining.”
- Pre-Post Thanksgiving, Pre-Post Christmas Shopping
- ASK FATHER: Could the Church make “communal services” the norm for the Sacrament of Penance?
- UPDATED BRICK BY BRICK in Florida! New Sunday TLM established.
- Latin-less Priests and Homeschoolers – UPDATED
- More Jesuit antics in that ‘caput malorum omnium’ the Church in Germany
- ASK FATHER: Could Latin be suppressed? Wherein Fr. Z rants.
- Wherein Fr. Z rants
- A solid “state of the question” VIDEO about The Present Crisis
- In how many ways is this creepy?
- HEADS WILL ROLL! A new “You won’t believe your eyes ugly” altar
- Why homosexualists hate Papa Ratzinger so much.
- My View For Awhile: Delayed Edition & Fr. Z’s Kitchen
- Solipsistic, self-aggrandizing @FatherRosica dares to vet Catholic news sources
- ASK FATHER: “I am doubting that the current Catholic Church is the Church it has always claimed to be”
- Strange Signs, the End Times and YOU
- A reader’s first impressions on attending the Extraordinary Form
- Horrifying Big Business Abortion Ad
Let us pray…
Grant unto thy Church, we beseech Thee, O merciful God, that She, being gathered together by the Holy Ghost, may be in no wise troubled by attack from her foes. O God, who by sin art offended and by penance pacified, mercifully regard the prayers of Thy people making supplication unto Thee,and turn away the scourges of Thine anger which we deserve for our sins. Almighty and Everlasting God, in whose Hand are the power and the government of every realm: look down upon and help the Christian people that the heathen nations who trust in the fierceness of their own might may be crushed by the power of thine Arm. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. R. Amen.
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Daily Archives: 28 October 2006
We continue our Patristic Rosary Project today with the:
2nd Glorious Mystery: The Ascension
Everything about the life of the Lord is a blessing for us. After His resurrection the Lord blessed the Apostles with His presence, gloriously risen. When His earthly … Continue reading
In 2004 I wrote several articles in The Wanderer about the "pro multis" controversy. I have posted them for your convenience.
The Roman Canon / 1st Eucharistic Prayer – 8: “Simili modo”
The Roman Canon / 1st Eucharistic Prayer – 10: “Simili … Continue reading
What has the liturgy of the Mass actually had in the past? We get Ã¢â‚¬Å“pro vobis et pro multis Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ for you and for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â in the formula of consecration from a blending of the accounts in Mark 14:24 (translated from Greek: Ã¢â‚¬Å“this is my blood of the covenant (diatheke) shed for many (tÃƒÂ² peri pollÃƒÂ´n)Ã¢â‚¬Â) and Matthew 26:28 also says Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â together with Luke 22:20 (translated from Greek: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Likewise also the cup, after the supper, saying Ã¢â‚¬ËœThis cup is the new covenant (diatheke) in my Blood which will be poured out for you.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬Â The choice to do this had theological significance. Our patristic sources, such as the writings of the 4th c Doctor of the Church St. Ambrose of Milan when describing the words of consecration in the Eucharistic liturgy, have pro multis and not pro omnibus, etc. The liturgical formulas were from Scripture.
The 4th c. Doctor of the Church St. Jerome, who translated from Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin giving us a Bible translation called the Vulgata, chose to use pro multis when translating the Greek tÃƒÂ² peri pollÃƒÂ´n (genitive plural of polus) in describing JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ words at the Last Supper. In Greek polus means Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â or Ã¢â‚¬Å“muchÃ¢â‚¬Â or even Ã¢â‚¬Å“mostÃ¢â‚¬Â as in the majority: it does not mean Ã¢â‚¬Å“allÃ¢â‚¬Â. In the ancient Church, no one said Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â instead of Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â. In the Greek Gospel accounts of the Last Supper, Jesus uses a form polus Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â. The liturgical rites of the East retained a form of polus. The rites of the Latin West have ever used pro multis. Continue reading
Looking at the same verses mentioned in the Catechism of the Council of Trent Jeremias, clearly having an axe to grind against someone, says of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“exclusiveÃ¢â‚¬Â use of polloÃƒÂ:
Ã¢â‚¬Å“This is the question whether the broad interpretation of polloÃƒÂ corresponds to the original sense of Mk. 10:45; 14:24 or whether we have here a secondary and more comprehensive understanding designed to avoid the offence of a restriction of the scope of the atoning work of Jesus to Ã¢â‚¬ËœmanyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬Â (pp. 543-44).
The foundation for our present translation was JeremiasÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ rereading of Scripture so as to avoid the offense in Catholic doctrine. Also, since Catholics know what the Church teaches, it will be okay adopt Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â. We will have to continue with JeremiasÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ argument next week. And yes, readers, the WDTPRS version of the consecration of the chalice will be coming soon. Continue reading
Was this obscuring compromise worth it for ecumenical reasons? I have no idea and I will leave that to my betters. However, to my mind this is an age when we need greater clarity not more nuances, a stronger sense of our Catholic faith and not something fuzzy. I do not think that ecumenical dialogue, as desirable as it can be when it is authentic, benefits from Catholics blurring their own teaching about how the fruits of the Lord JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Sacrifice will only be accepted by many even though He gave Himself up for all. By saying Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â the Church does not teach that God cannot and does not save non-Catholics through the merits of the LordÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Sacrifice! But, even if the number of the many who accept the fruits is beyond the reckoning of man, it is not going to be the Ã¢â‚¬Å“totalityÃ¢â‚¬Â, all of mankind, everyone who ever lived. If counting the elect is impossible for us, that mysterious number will not be beyond God who knew it before Creation. The Church taught clearly what this meant in a time of great upheaval and theological revolution. This teaching has been formally upheld in recent years. It is not in our best interests as a Ã¢â‚¬Å“Church in the modern worldÃ¢â‚¬Â to leave Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â as the translation for pro multis. We must return to Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â and then teach, teach, teachÃ¢â‚¬Â¦and embrace in charitable dialog all who will wonder what we mean or will seek to say we are wrong. Continue reading
His Eminence Joseph Card. Ratzinger confronts this in God Is Near Us: The Eucharist, The Heart of Life (Ignatius Press, 2003). His Eminence makes three points (pp. 37-8, n. 10): 1) Jesus died to save all and to deny that is not in any way a Christian attitude, 2) God lovingly leaves people free to reject salvation and some do, and 3):
Ã¢â‚¬Å“The fact that in Hebrew the expression Ã¢â‚¬Å“manyÃ¢â‚¬Â would mean the same thing as Ã¢â‚¬Å“allÃ¢â‚¬Â is not relevant to the question under consideration inasmuch as it is a question of translating, not a Hebrew text here, but a Latin text (from the Roman Liturgy), which is directly related to a Greek text (the New Testament). The institution narratives in the New Testament are by no means simply a translation (still less, a mistaken translation) of Isaiah; rather, they constitute an independent sourceÃ¢â‚¬Â.
What Card. Ratzinger did here is cut loose the raft of emotion and conjecture lashed to the pier built by Lutheran scholar Joachim Jeremias, upon which ICEL justified rendering Ã¢â‚¬Å“for manyÃ¢â‚¬Â as Ã¢â‚¬Å“for allÃ¢â‚¬Â. Remember that Jeremias and then Fr. Max Zerwick, SJ (in Notitiae in 1970) used Aramaic and Isaiah 53 arguments for their change to Ã¢â‚¬Å“for all.Ã¢â‚¬Â Whether Jeremias was right or wrong (and I think his argument was at best tenuous) is entirely beside the point now. First, we are not Protestants who approach doctrine from a standpoint of sola Scriptura Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ Scripture alone. Second, we are not historical-critics when we approach the consecration of the Mass, we are believing Catholics. Third, the Missale Romanum and the Tradition and teachings of the Church have their own value, a value not to be abandoned in the face of conjecture and the vagaries of historical-critical Scripture scholarship or the concerns of non-Catholics. Fourth, the Missale Romanum is in Latin. This is a key point which every reader of WDTPRS must understand. Continue reading