Comments on the Pope’s Mass in the Bronx – updated

I will post some comments on the Holy Father’s Mass as it progresses.  I sincerely hope it will be fruitful for all who follow it!

As soon as the Holy Father finishes his sermon, I will post it in another entry and also add my commentary to it.

2:24
Alas, Shepherd is stumbling a bit on FNC… I think I will shift to another audio.

2:25
The Holy Father has left the "popemobile" and has gone to vest.

2:36
Joan Lewis made a comment on EWTN, about the music being more "Classical" rather than representing multi-cultural values.  I think Classical does represent multi-cultural values.  Also, Raymond Arroyo and Fr Neuhaus commented that this is ore to Benedict’s and Card. Egan’s liking.  I don’t think that is the point, really, though it is undoubtedly true!

2:43
His Holiness, now incensing the altar, seems seriously upbeat.

2:55
Card. Egan gave a greeting which also summarized many points of His Holiness’s visit. 

2:57

The people seemed to handle the Kyrie very well!

2:58
Ah… what a Gloria!  And people participate by listening with interiorly active receptivity!  Wonderful.  Like a cool drink of water in a desert.

3:01
It would be nice he sang the Collect after that nice Gloria!

3:05
The responsorial psalm seems often, musically, to be the weakest moment in the Novus Ordo, I think.

3:08
The English feed of Vatican Radio has cut in with EWTN, and Charles Collins is reading the English for the Spanish of the second reading.

3:12
The Gospel is sung in an adapted Roman tone.  Very nice!  I wish we had a better translation, but this is very good!  The deacon did a good job, and with confidence in a very intimidating situation!

Il Papa parla!

The stadium is so quiet as he speaks.  People are listening! This is what I hoped for.

3:37
Spanish

Now that he is finished with his sermon, I have posted his text, with some preliminary commentary, here.

Long applause!

3:43
The Holy Father intones Credo III and everyone seems to know what to do.  They don’t have to divide it up in that odd, us against them  fashion.  Excellent!

Also, during the Creed there was a good view of the Holy Father bowed at the Et incarnatus.  How I wish we would all kneel everytime the Creed was recited or sung in the Novus Ordo!  This could be a good thing to reintroduce.

3:55
Offertory.  The lines and lines of priests are going to their places.  I had a fleeting image…. well…. more about that later.

3:38
Incense.  Nice thurible.  It doesn’t look like a glob, or early Russian satellite.

4:02
A momentary stumble in singing the dialogue of the Preface.  However, I so prefer the sung intonation, I can handle even drifting from the pitch a bit.  Singing is truly important in the liturgy!  It doesn’t always have to be perfect, even in such a moment. Singing adds something that mere recitation cannot approach.

4:03
I am fine with this Sanctus in this setting today. 

Again.. The Roman Canon!

BELLS for the consecration!  Class!

"For ever und ever"!   I love this guy!

He must be so tired.  And one tends to lose energy faster the closer you get to the end.

4:17
Ego sum!  In Gregorian setting!  Very fine.

During Communion I saw I priests I met in Kansas City.

Sicut cervus by Palestrina.  Folks, if you have a choir that can do this piece, and you have me come for Mass, please do it.  This is one of my great favorites and for many reasons.  It always has a powerful effect on me.

On ETWN Raymond and Fr. Neuhaus are The Bickersons.  o{]:¬)

4:25
Papa look tired now.

Raymond and Father should NOT talk during Panis angelicus.

Was our tenor fighting with the score a little?

Break Bread Together On Our Knees… hmmm.   I think the setting is a little gushy… perhaps a little too show tune.  Was that some Latin at the end?  Laudamus Patrem?

Benediction….. very good.

4:45
And into the dug out he goes!

This gets high marks.  

Well done New York, from beginning to end.

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99 Responses to Comments on the Pope’s Mass in the Bronx – updated

  1. Diane says:

    I’ve never heard Cardinal Egan speak before these events. I think his voice is deeper than Cardinal Bertone. Although, it is more fun to listen to latter :)

    Do I detect a slightly Irish accent in Cardinal Egan’s voice?

  2. Geoffrey says:

    Mass is very beautiful so far. Is it me, or does this country feel a lot better just with him being here?

  3. Br. Pius says:

    This Responsorial Psalm is terrible, and this cantor is too Broadway for a Mass. And why are the members of the choir wearing stoles?

  4. mrs. k says:

    The psalmist is a big NPM “teacher”. I saw him at a GIA/OCP “Cantor workshop” that I was forced to go to.

    For ‘Exultate Justi’ there are so many fine choices of music.

    But, yes, nice moments, musically, as well.

  5. Fr. Wade says:

    I womder why they always have female lectors? Are there no seminarians, installed acolytes?

  6. Coletta says:

    Father Z,
    Could you please convey to the Holy Father that in the US we do not all want multilingual Masses? I fear he may given that impression. Yes, the music is much better here.

    I still will seek to learn the Mass in Latin and attend it. If people are from various places and languages and they each have missals in Latin and their own language everyone can pray the Mass, right?

  7. captainbozo says:

    I can only imagine that all the women doing the readings has to do with trying to dispel the notion that the Church hates and oppresses women.

  8. Geoffrey says:

    I hope the chanting of the Gospel catches on now.

  9. Joy Niklas says:

    If I could have recommended the psalm setting, it would have been from chabanelpsalms.org, which we use at my parish.

    Viva Papa!

    Joy

  10. tradforlife says:

    The problem with english chant (or latin hymns translated to english) is that you end up smashing a square peg into a round hole. It never quite sounds right. That’s because the chant evolved organically to fit the latin language.

    If your going to chant do it in latin.

  11. Geoffrey says:

    “If your going to chant do it in latin.”

    Brick by brick…

  12. Zubi says:

    Fr. Z,
    If you have the Pope’s ear, beg him to also encourage Holy Marriage when speaking of vacations. We need Holy families too!

  13. Collette says:

    I second Coletta’s statement: “Could you please convey to the Holy Father that in the US we do not all want multilingual Masses?”

    As a volunteer at an English/Spanish parish I have seen that multilingual Masses only serve to reinforce our differences. In fact, the pastor of this parish were I volunteer, has decided to discontinue them because they are not well received by anyone. He stated that next Holy Thursday the Mass will be strictly in Spanish and he will tell the English parishioners to go elsewhere!

  14. Adam says:

    Father, is it possible to post the audio along with the text of the homily like you were able to for the youth and seminarian address? I found it to be a great help.

  15. Collette says:

    I agree with Coletta\’s statement: \”Could you please convey to the Holy Father that in the US we do not all want multilingual Masses?\”

    As a volunteer at an English/Spanish parish I have seen that multilingual Masses only serve to reinforce our differences. In fact, the pastor of this parish where I volunteer, has decided to discontinue them because they are not well received by anyone. He stated that next Holy Thursday the Mass will be strictly in Spanish and he will tell the English parishioners to go elsewhere!

  16. Joy Niklas says:

    Collette,

    It would be better to have it in Latin, then everyone could attend, and not tell anyone to go away!

  17. Geoffrey says:

    Just from watching Masses on EWTN and CTV, I am quicklu learning the chant melody for this version of the Creed. It would be so easy to implement parts of the ordinary at Mass in parishes. Week after week, you’d pick it up.

  18. Collette says:

    Reply to Joy Niklas:

    Believe me I have tried, but Father does not like Latin. (I travel 100 miles every Sunday to attend a Traditional Latin Mass.)

  19. senorverde says:

    One of the funnier things just then in the petitions was how, during the space between each reader ended, but before that clunky trilingual intercession music could start up, you could hear most people just muttering “Lord, hear our prayer” in English….love it.

    …and now we have Brahms! Probably a nice treat for Benedict…too bad in English translation.

  20. Geoffrey says:

    Fr. Z said: “Incense. Nice thurible. It doesn’t look like a glob, or early Russian satellite.”

    … or like a salad bowl as in my parish!

  21. mrs. k says:

    About the Brahms, the English translation was actually done by Brahms, and the translation is very nice and sings well — I think a good choice — B16 would rather hear that than Americans butchering German… HOWEVER, why on earth are we hearing ein Deutches Requiem music for Easter 5? Because of the reference to heaven in the Gospel? Don’t get me wrong – we do “How Lovely” in November. I love the piece – who doesn’t?

  22. Doug Nesmith says:

    Didnt the Vatican say recently that the texts hsould be changed to reflect pro multis. Didnt the Holy Father just say “for all”, pro omnibus? No wonder the American bishops feel free to continue doing what they want. Other than that a very nice Mass. Nicer than what we get here in the Charismatic south

  23. Timothy James says:

    I can’t believe that people break into a “Benedetto” chant during Mass! It does show very well how problematic these large-scale stadium Masses are. Can you imagine a chant breaking out during Mass in a Church? No matter how hard you try to make a baseball stadium look like a Church, the atmosphere will never be the same.

  24. Joy Niklas says:

    Can we get a campaign going to get back to intinction?

  25. senorverde says:

    Man, why do Raymond Arroyo and Fr. Neuhaus always have to butt in right in the middle of gorgeous polyphony??!! Argh. Sounded like the choir was doing a solid job with Sicut Cervus.

  26. Geoffrey says:

    The “for many” will appear in the new English translation, and the Holy See said not to change it until then.

  27. Diane says:

    I was being absolutely transported to heaven with the Sicut Cervus until….

    RAYMOND BROKE IN AGAIN AT THE MOST PRECIOUS PIECE OF MUSIC – THE ABSOLUTE CLIMAX OF THE SELECTED MUSIC!!!!

    Do they not have a clue when to begin talking? Mercy!!!

  28. Emilio III says:

    Doug,

    They said that pro multis must be translated properly for the 2002 Missal, not that priests should improvise on the current one.

  29. njknutson says:

    I understand the reference to the Good Shepherd, but why Ego Sum, last Sunday’s chant? Tanto tempore is harder…?

  30. senorverde says:

    Did the tenor just start at the *completely* wrong time on the Franck, or was it a trick of the stadium reverb?

  31. Zubi says:

    Raymond’s blog has a whiny bit about the Pope ‘slight’ of Mother Angelica. What is up with that?

  32. Joy Niklas says:

    I think it was the wind blowing his score around.

  33. Diane says:

    Fr. Z: Sicut cervus by Palestrina. Folks, if you have a choir that can do this piece, and you have me come for Mass, please do it. This is one of my great favorites and for many reasons. It always has a powerful effect on me.

    Dear Fr. Z. I know someday…..someday….you’ll come back to Assumption Grotto. I will ask Fr. Perrone that we do the Sicut Cervus by Palestrina. It’s one of my most favorite pieces to sing. Then again, I haven’t found anything I don’t like yet by Palestrina.

    Perhaps St. Agnes still has the audio up on their website? Ah, yes – it is still there. The linked page also has the Viadana “Exultate Justi” and Croce’s “O Sacrum Convivium”.

  34. captainbozo says:

    How come CNN knows better to shut up during the procession than EWTN?!?

  35. Eilis ni Mhurchu says:

    A propos the reception of Holy Communion by politicians – why do these people
    do this. Politicians are held in very low esteem as it is. This lowers them
    further in the esteem of informed Catholics. If there are Catholics to whom
    this appeals God help the Church in the US. Fr. Groeschel on EWTN when
    questioned about it said that a) the priests would not want to create an
    incident by denying themor b) would not recognize them. Give me a break.
    It’a past time that incidents were created. In re the other excuse
    I live in Canada and recongnize them all. There is a simple solution: don’t
    distribute Communion at these events. In the same way Communion should not
    be distributed at weddings and funerals in all our parishes. I understand
    years ago this was the case. Making a statement that persons not
    entitled to receive should not doesn’t matter a row of beans. They still
    present themselves. Recently here a UC of Canada minister and and Anglican
    minister tried to receive at the installation Mass of the Archbishop but the
    Nuncio had the spine to deny them..

    Una
    this was the case years ago.

  36. Kevin says:

    One thing struck me as the Pope was walking out. The African and Asian priests/bishops greeted the Vicar of Christ with great reverence by kissing his ring and his hand. America/Anglo priests merely shook his hand with no sense of respect. Thank God for our foreign orthodox priests.

  37. We love being married says:

    I believe it is a serious sin for commentators to talk over the Panis Angelicus.

  38. Pedes XPi says:

    Great Mass! I even liked the way the Sanctus Schubert’s Deutsche Messe was done (and I thought I was tired of hearing it). The Gloria was magnificent!

    The weakest points musically were the responsorial psalm and the intercessions—not a good composition, done in a very self-conscious and affected manner, and the cantor looked entirely too pleased with himself! Something needs to be done. One can put English into chant (it all has to do with getting the accentuation right). But the English translations being so very poor, I would stick to the Latin as much as possible. You could do a simplified tone, using the responsorial tones for the lesser hours, that I think folks would find very singable. Then you have got to teach these cantors in our parishes how to use their voices and how to pray what they are singing-the mass is neither the opera nor broadway. That being said, I think the choir here WAS praying, and did very well. I am listening to the final bits of Beethoven, improved by the substitution of a sacred text, and it works!

    I had the pleasure of attending a most beautiful and prayerful Holy Mass at Mater Ecclesiae in Berling NJ this morning, and it struck me during it that it is time to pray for the Holy Spirit to go to work. The real charismatic movement is to be found in Spirit-filled Holy Tradition that is always new. The common view of Tradition is that it is static. Nothing could be farther from the Truth. Tradition is not static, but is the continuing work of the Spirit of Christ in space and time, and the Church lives by tradition as a fire lives by burning. The Holy Father’s visit, it seems to me, is a kind of little Pentecost, when the fire of that Spirit can be strengthened and renewed in us. I think we should latch onto and pray for that Spirit, and desire and cherish the supernatural joy of Christ which his apostolic visit, bringing with him the charisms of Peter, has brought us. Come Holy Ghost, renew us and the Church in our country.

  39. Calleva says:

    Watched the Mass on EWTN. Raymond did shut up so we could hear the Panis Angelicus, what are you all on about? I thought the cantor very good, a trained voice, far superior in every way to the one in DC. In fact, I think that the edifying, reverent and beautiful Mass in NY will force a comparison with the Stadium one in DC and conclusions may very well be telling.

    For me this was musically the best of the US masses, speaking as a North European. I quite liked the St Pat’s liturgy, it was full of joy, but the music was somewhat marred by the brass and slightly operatic feel.

    I loved the chasubles worn in St Pat’s and today – cream with a vertical band of colourful Florentine style embroidery. so beautiful!!!!!

  40. Adam says:

    Great Mass with the Holy Father, BUT those intrusive, rude, aggressive secret service
    people were horrendous. Today thast bald headed one tried again to stop priests
    touching the pope and moving them away. He was so aggressive and Raymond commented on
    this and how intrusive it has been. Peggy Noonan also madce comments on this
    aggressive intrusion and the way the security had become like a steel shield
    around the pope. In the cathedral yesterday Missionaries of Charity were
    aggressively pushed aside as the pope walked down the aisle, once again by the
    bald-headed secret servcie man who has taken it on himself to stop nuns and priests
    touching their leader.
    This aggression doe snot happen in Rome and I am stunned that thes men can be
    allowed to do so IN THE CHURCH. This ought be out of their province, and heavens,
    how much do you have to screen priests and nuns. What next, placing a steel bubble
    around the pope wherever he goes.
    NO, the secret service were way out of their league and ought realise this man
    is the Vicar of Christ, not a politician.
    It was shameful and ruined the Masses at the end yesterday and today.
    Adam.

  41. gabriel says:

    “For ever und ever”

    I was dying – all the way over in Bavaria.

    And then Card. Bertone!! He’s just fantastic! Absolutely priceless!

    I thought it was fairly all right. All in all a nice choice of music.
    I did wonder myself why it seems impossilbe to have the readings done by a Seminarian. Being a woman myself, I do feel queezy when the readings are done by women.

    I watched on BR (Bavarian State Network) who’s commentators are smart enough to keep quiet about 90% of the time.
    Thanks to that, I was able to listen without any distraction and enjoyed the Holy Father’s english tremendously!
    Him and Bertone together are absolutely adorable in that regard. (sorry, I’m surely not trying to be disrespectful, it’s just something I’ve noticed throughout this entire visit)

    I just hope, our Holy Father will get the rest he deserves when he’s back over here.

  42. TJM says:

    The New York stadium Mass was a vast improvement of the panderfest in DC. I think one of the most important developments in NY was the use of the propers during the Mass, a practice almost forgotten in the US. I’m hoping musical directors will pick up on that. Tom

  43. jh says:

    I thought the bilingual parts were well done. I much prefer that to the so faux multicultural aspects we saw in D.C. that seemed all forced and contrived and artificial

    I note the small Spanish parts that were in it were met by great appreciation at this Mass and at the youth raly. It is a good compromise

  44. RBrown says:

    One thing struck me as the Pope was walking out. The African and Asian priests/bishops greeted the Vicar of Christ with great reverence by kissing his ring and his hand. America/Anglo priests merely shook his hand with no sense of respect. Thank God for our foreign orthodox priests.
    Comment by Kevin

    Did you notice how many of the 9-11 families kissed his ring?

  45. Pedes XPi says:

    “those intrusive, rude, aggressive secret service people were horrendous”

    I know a lot of people are upset by the Hoy Father’s security detail, but please consider how extremely difficult a task they have in protecting the Holy Father. It is not easy to do this in such a setting, and from what I have seen they are in fact doing quite a good job, which is to protect our Pope from people who have made it very clear they want to kill him, not to be popular with the likes of us. If through oversight or lack of zeal for his safety, someone were to harm the Holy Father, what would you say about them then?

  46. paul brennan says:

    adam

    the bald headed [secret service agent] is in fact the head
    [no pun intended.]. of vatican security…

    very many thanks to the archdiocese of new york

    prayers from all for the holy fathers safe return to rome please

    paul

    Republic of Ireland

  47. elizabeth mckernan says:

    Fr Z – you say ‘How I wish we would all kneel at the ‘Et incarnatus est’ in the Creed. Yes Yes Yes! When I first started attending Mass I used to find this moment extremely profound – a physical action to accompany this amazing statement. Et homo factus est – what could be more amazing. And then we were told this was no longer to be done and consequently the pause started to disappear and this most profound of statements merged into the rest of the Creed. In some churches nobody even bows at this point.

  48. Victor says:

    RBrown said: Did you notice how many of the 9-11 families kissed his ring?

    Practically everyone, or am I wrong?

  49. Hoka2_99 says:

    Today I felt as if I had really watched a Mass. It was all so much better than Washington that I could even put up with the “Break bread together” thing. The Holy Father was deeply immersed in praying the Mass – as I always think, when watching him, there could be three people there or three hundred thousand; he is not aware of anything around him.
    Beautiful! I hope he now has a sleep on the plane and spends a really relaxing week [if not more than a week] at Castel Gandolfo. There is no audience on Wednesday – as one would expect, after what he’s been through! But the following Wednesday I expect there will be one, though I wish he would rest for longer.
    We have to wrap this very precious man in cotton wool.

  50. David Kubiak says:

    Another reminder that to introduce bells into a papal Mass is
    and innovation. Altar bells were never rung at pre-reform papal
    Masses in St. Peter’s.

    Fr. Neuhaus trotted out the old canard about the Pope wearing
    white being due to Pius V and his Dominican habit. He often
    gets historical details like this wrong. But I will forgive
    him anything after his brave rebuke of the Washington Mass.

    And the Holy Father did visibly turn sour at the weirdly intrusive
    ‘spiritual’ Communion hymn.

  51. RBrown says:

    adam

    the bald headed [secret service agent] is in fact the head
    [no pun intended.]. of vatican security…

    very many thanks to the archdiocese of new york

    prayers from all for the holy fathers safe return to rome please

    paul

    Republic of Ireland
    Comment by paul brennan

    Why did you only capital R of I?

  52. RBrown says:

    should be “capitalize R of I”.

  53. Dominic says:

    Thank you Diane for the link to the St Agnes music. It’s beautiful.

    Yes, some things were not spot on. But so much was. There’s much to be grateful for. I’m from the other side of the pond, but from all that I saw it was an extraordinarily successful Papal visit. Thank God for Pope Benedict XVI.

  54. Justin says:

    Tom – EP I is the Roman Canon. Look in your EF missal and look in the Latin section of the 2002 Missale Romanum. It’s the same prayer.

  55. Peter says:

    Let us not grouse about finer points when a) the entire pastoral visit was magnificently carried out and recieved by a vicious press and b) there were a few things we don’t find quite to our liking. In point of fact, the whole thing came off very well, particularly in view of the stuff many people have to endure in their local parishes.

    I found it enthralling from start to finish. And as anyone offers criticism, remember, he’s the Pope and you aren’t.

  56. There is a lot of unreasonable griping going on here.

    That said…

    I think they may have to interupt sometimes. I am guessing it may have something to do with union musicians. There may be broadcasting issues when union musicians are involved. Not sure.

  57. Geoffrey says:

    “And as anyone offers criticism, remember, he’s the Pope and you aren’t.”

    Will you charge royalties if I use that line? ;-)

  58. Bob K. says:

    This was a really nice Mass. The Archdiocese of New York did a wonderful job!. Both here and at St Patrick’s!. Great musical selections and really nice Novus Ordo Masses in general!. Now lets continue to use these beautiful musical selections and gestures in the parish Masses across the US!.

  59. Paul says:

    “Incense. Nice thurible. It doesn’t look like a glob, or early Russian satellite.”

    That was brilliant father! You had me in stitches.

  60. Tom says:

    Justin, any number of Catholic scholars, such as Stratford Caldecott, acknowledge that Eucharistic Prayer I is a “modified” version of the traditional Roman Canon.

    Stratford Caldecott, a Catholic scholar and director of Oxford’s Centre for Faith & Culture and co-editor of its journal Second Spring…who has been praised on the Web site “Ratzinger Fan Club” and has contributed to the ecumenical publication Touchstone, has acknowledged that EP I is a “modified version” of the Canon.

    But at least for the moment, let’s move beyond that issue.

    Justin, do we at least agree upon the following:

    When it comes to conveying the Catholic Faith, as compared to the additional Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayers, Eucharistic Prayer I is the superior prayer?

    Do we also agree that the Holy Father could improve the Novus Ordo by simply suppressing each Eucharistic Prayer except Eucharistic Prayer I?

    Justin, I am interested in your reply.

    Thank you.

    Pax.

  61. Jordan Potter says:

    Tom said: Justin, any number of Catholic scholars, such as Stratford Caldecott, acknowledge that Eucharistic Prayer I is a “modified” version of the traditional Roman Canon.

    Sorry to nitpick, but it’s not quite correct to say that EP I is a “modified” version of the Roman Canon. It is, in fact, the Roman Canon, and is identified as such in the Missal. Yes, it is different in various ways from the form of the Canon that existed prior to Vatican II, but the Church of Rome has a right to identify its Canon as well as to modify it.

  62. Josiah says:

    Fr.Z,If you love Palestrina, you should visit my parish if you’re ever in Philadelphia! We use a lot of Palestrina. It is;nt recorded here, but we used sicut Cervus at the procession to the font on holy Saturday this year. Here’s recordings of our holy week music. http://jdtreat.com/holyweek08.htm

  63. CPKS says:

    I am beginning to think that “multicultural values” is the next golden calf that Catholics need to slay. It is a wholly secular conception.

    I was once advised that whenever the word “value” is used in the plural, you should be on your guard. (Next comes “gods”.)

  64. Tom says:

    Jordan Potter wrote: “Sorry to nitpick, but it’s not quite correct to say that EP I is a “modified” version of the Roman Canon. It is, in fact, the Roman Canon, and is identified as such in the Missal. Yes, it is different in various ways from the form of the Canon that existed prior to Vatican II, but the Church of Rome has a right to identify its Canon as well as to modify it.”

    I disagree that EP I is the traditional Roman Canon…but okay…fine. I guess that I can pretend that EP I is the Roman Canon, even though “it is different in various ways from the form of the Canon that existed prior to Vatican II.”

    It’s the same…even though it’s not the same? Ummm…okay.

    Is that similar to the teaching that the Novus Ordo is the same Rite as the Traditional Latin Mass?

    I am actually smiling…just having a bit of fun.

    Okay…we disagree regarding EP I and the traditional Canon issue.

    Let us move to the far more important discussion. Do you agree that the Novus Ordo Mass would transmit the Catholic Faith more powerfully with EP I as the sole Eucharistic Prayer?

    Thank you.

    Pax.

  65. RBrown says:

    I disagree that EP I is the traditional Roman Canon…but okay…fine. I guess that I can pretend that EP I is the Roman Canon, even though “it is different in various ways from the form of the Canon that existed prior to Vatican II.”

    It’s the same…even though it’s not the same? Ummm…okay.\

    Some differences in things are more substantial than other differences. A BMW is different from a Harley Davidson. And a BMW sedan is different from a BMW convertible. Surely, you wouldn’t say that the differences between the sedan and convertible are anywhere close to being the same as between a BMW and a Harley.

    Ditto with the First Eucharistic Prayer. It is not exactly the Roman Canon, but the differences are less substantial than the differences between the Roman Canon and the Second EP.

    Is that similar to the teaching that the Novus Ordo is the same Rite as the Traditional Latin Mass?
    Comment by Tom

    In a way it is the same rite–both were promulgated by the Bishop of Rome.

    In another way, it is not.

  66. RBrown says:

    Do we also agree that the Holy Father could improve the Novus Ordo by simply suppressing each Eucharistic Prayer except Eucharistic Prayer I?
    Comment by Tom

    I agree with that. Additionally, replace the NO offertory with that from the 1962 Missal.

    One of the sad aspects of the Novus Ordo is that the use of EP1 is discouraged for daily mass.

  67. Tom says:

    RBrown wrote: “Ditto with the First Eucharistic Prayer. It is not exactly the Roman Canon, but the differences are less substantial than the differences between the Roman Canon and the Second EP.”

    I asked (from another post): “Do we also agree that the Holy Father could improve the Novus Ordo by simply suppressing each Eucharistic Prayer except Eucharistic Prayer I?”

    RBrown replied: “I agree with that. Additionally, replace the NO offertory with that from the 1962 Missal. One of the sad aspects of the Novus Ordo is that the use of EP1 is discouraged for daily mass.”

    I am pleased that we agree that EP I should serve as the Novus Ordo’s one and only Eucharistic Prayer. I also agree with your statement regarding the NO offertory.

    Now…the big question: Do you believe that Pope Benedict XVI will suppress each EP other than EP I?

    Thank you.

    Pax.

  68. Mark says:

    I don’t want to gripe, but did anyone else notice that during the elevation he turned the Blessed Sacrament to the left and to the right? What I am particularly curious about is if anyone has ever seen him do this before? Was this something suggested to him here???

  69. Tom says:

    RBrown wrote: “One of the sad aspects of the Novus Ordo is that the use of EP1 is discouraged for daily mass.”

    Since the advent of the multiple Roman EPs, I recall just two…perhaps three Masses at which I have assisted (Dallas for the most part) that featured EP I.

    Pax.

  70. Michael Christopher says:

    We are pleased Fr Z. that you are pleased! Just kidding Father. But really I am somewhat disturbed at critiquing the Pope of Rome, and his Mass. I have no problem with your empahsis and COMMENTS. Reaaly I do but at least with the Holy Father’s words could you merely post them and then post them again with your comments. I get sick and tired of commentators like Rush Limbaugh who think we are too dumb to read a sentence in English and understand it. Your comments have value; but, they do not belong to the Magisterium, be it ordinary or extraordinary. Hence, please, first his words and then you rcomments.

    As to the rest; who do you think you are? Jesus gave the authority to Peter and his successors; not a bunch of critics of the 21st century. Rejoice that you have the Faith; and a great Bishop of Rome!

  71. jarhead 462 says:

    Hey Michael, you took an awfully circuitus route to slam Limbaugh.
    hmmmm.

    Semper Fi!

  72. Michael: You can find the Holy Father’s words on lots of sites. I will use my blog not so much simply to duplicate what others do, but to add my own comments. That is what a blog is for.

    Also, I see nothing wrong with making comments about the Masses, so long as there are sound reasons for what comments are made.

    If you start your own blog, you will be able to make your comments about the Masses, or not make comments. As it pleases you.

    In the meantime, I am glad that WDTPRS has insightful readers who have no need of my parsing the texts. Some find them helpful. I find the exercise helpful because I gain insight even as I work them through and then take the risk of putting my comments out to the world.

    Finally, who do I think I am? I think I am, at least in this discussion, the guy who started and runs this blog. I am a few other things too, but, for this blog, that will suffice.

  73. Jenny Z says:

    “For ever und ever”! I love this guy!

    Hahaha, I love it :D

  74. Michael Christopher says:

    Well at least I didn’t get the “sour grape award”!

    As I said before I merely would like to see the Pope’s words first on their own. Your comments do have value Father as do the comments of any good teacher and I fully respect your right to do with your blog as you see fit.

    You got the “heat” because your site is very fast in getting the text out there for us to read. That is great. So keep up the good work. I can always ignore the red and read the black;;;and go back and read the red,

    Pax et bonum

  75. Shane says:

    Regarding surpressing EP1, I would have to disagree. I happen to think that Eucharistic Prayer 4 has some advantages over EP1, insofar as how it makes – in my opinion – much more clear what is going on sacrificially speaking.

    But I realy don’t want to debate that. Just putting in my two cents.

    The real comment I wanted to make was that I thought the behavior of the crowd was appalling today. I was at the Mass, and it was just treated much more like a baseball game than a Mass. Obviously, when Mass is held in a baseball stadium, it’s asking for trouble, but at the same time people ought to realize that you don’t interrupt the Mass, or any other prayer for that matter, with shouting and screaming the way quite a few people did today. We all went to see Pope Benedict, but there was an even greater guest present today in Jesus Christ. People chose to shout about how great the pope was right in the middle of the Mass, at some particularly inappropriate times. It was very dissapointing. :(

    I also agree with those critical of the multiple languages. I think that this is problematic for several reasons. I’m a huge proponent of the vernacular in Mass, but I think I am now of the opinion that in Masses where a diverse crowd is expected, Latin ought to be used, as opposed to shifting around from one language to the next.

  76. Louis E. says:

    So he is skipping the Wednesday audience…but according to other reports celebrating the funeral of Cardinal Lopez Trujillo the same day?

  77. David says:

    “Let us break bread together” strikes me as a subtle but brilliant selection.

    A) “Let us break bread together on our knees” — the traditional posture for reception of Holy Communion.
    B) “When I fall on my knees with my face to the rising sun, O Lord, have mercy on me.” — ad orientem!

    Even if Fr. Z is right to say that the setting was a little gushy, I thought it very interesting that a song with such suggestive lyrics was chosen for this occasion. But perhaps I read too much into it.

  78. David: Great observation! “…on our knees… face the rising sun”! Well done. You get WDTPRS kudos for that catch. I will use that in my upcoming article for the paper.

  79. Antiquarian says:

    “I happen to think that Eucharistic Prayer 4 has some advantages over EP1, insofar as how it makes – in my opinion – much more clear what is going on sacrificially speaking.”

    Shane, I love the 4th Eucharistic Prayer– I wish it were used more often. For one thing I find it the most beautiful, especially in Latin!

  80. MartinB says:

    Like gabriel I watched the bavarian TV coverage and so I’m not sure, when american services started their programm

    Did you had a chance to watch the concelebrating priests enter the sanctuary before the arrival of the pope?

    I was so disturbed by the way some (or even most) of them behaved.
    They waved the crowd, chatted among themselves and to others, took photos, sent sms and used their cell-phones.

    And all of this by CONCELEBRANTS !!!

    I hope the pope will get some time to watch a complete recording. After what he has said so far about great concelebrations, he might finally put an end to such things.

    Like, for example: “The number of concelebrants is not to be higher than can be assembled in a single line around the altar.”

  81. Adam says:

    Sorry Paul, the baldheaded security man IS NOT FROM THE VATICAN. he is
    Secret service and in fact the tall security man with the long hair is from the
    Vatican. The former di not get on the Alitalia flight to return to Rome.
    His actions were horrendous, bullying and no security from the vatican would
    have acted the way he did IN the cathedral with the Missionaries of Charity.
    Never !!! He is never at the pope’s side in the white car in Rome, nor in the
    Basilica with events. He is an American Secret service man and that obvious to
    all who saw his aggressive tactics which should never have been allowed in the
    cathedral. And to those who speak of security – well, what next, the pope in
    a perpetual steel bubble? even the black car and the guards was way over the top
    and Peggy Noonan on EWTN got that right. Jesus was never treated like this
    and if priests and nuns are searched on entry that ought be enough.
    Where is this all going? After 1 Sept America has gone mad on secuirty, seeing
    terrorists everywhere, but they are not in the Missionaries of Charity who were
    trying to touch the successor of Peter.
    Adam
    (former Vatican employee)

  82. RBrown says:

    Now…the big question: Do you believe that Pope Benedict XVI will suppress each EP other than EP I?
    Comment by Tom

    That depends on how long he lives. He was 78 when he was elected, not 58 like JPII.

    This is not 1955, when the pope could order something done–and all dioceses throughout the world would immediately do it. The Montini Church has been around for at least 35 years. Seminarians were selected who liked it, and those who might have favored Latin liturgy or ad orientem celebration were pressured into changing or forced out. The laity and veteran priests have adjusted to the present liturgical situation. Those who couldn’t adjust, left.

    The re-orientation of the liturgy will take time, simply because Rome first must regain its control over it.

  83. Gregg the obscure says:

    Fr Z, I’m a bit curious why your comment on the Schubert Sanctus was “I am fine with this Sanctus in this setting today.” It’s reverent, it’s beautiful, it complements the text rather than obscuring it. What more could one ask?

  84. Rouxfus says:

    The guy with the toughest job was the fellow standing next to the Holy Father with the paten. It seemed to be about 50-50 for communion in hand vs. communion on the tongue, and this fellow had to have lightning reflexes.

    The side camera angle on the Pope giving communion was a testimony of the reason why kneeling for communion on the tongue makes practical as well as spiritual sense. Some of the taller communicants had to bend way over so the Holy Father could place it on their tongue.

    I pray there wasn’t anyone in that stadium who pocketed their host as a souvenir of the event, and that none show up on eBay.

  85. RBrown says:

    Adam,

    I was told the following story:

    When Bush41 visited JPII, the plan was for the Presidential limo to pull through the gate, stop, then be led to the Cortile, where he would get out of the car.

    The limo pulled through the gate, and a couple members of Vat security stepped in front and held up their arms so that the car would stop. The Secret Service responded by grabbing them and putting them up against a wall.

  86. mbd says:

    RBrown wrote: “Some differences in things are more substantial than other differences. A BMW is different from a Harley Davidson. And a BMW sedan is different from a BMW convertible. Surely you wouldn’t say that the differences between the sedan and the convertible are anywhere close to being the same as between a BMW and a Harley.”
    Well — maybe. Is the BMW in your last comparison to a Harley a BMW motorcycle or a BMW automobile? Sorry, but I could not resist when, this morning, I saw your comment. I do agree with the main point of your comment that the differences between the Roman Canon in the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form are not substantial. If there is a significant change in respect to E.P. I from the Roman Canon in the Extraordinary Form, however, it is not in the E. P. itself, but in the omission in the Ordinary Form’s offertory prayers of the invocation of the Holy Spirit which supplies the Epiclesis otherwise missing in the Roman Canon in the Etraordinary Form. E.P. II-IV all contain an invocation to the Holy Spirit within them.

  87. Danie says:

    I didn’t see any comment on the Agnus Dei. At the point in the Mass at which it seems it would have been sung, the words did not sound right. I believe I caught a “have mercy on us”, yet didn’t hear “Lamb of God that takes away the sin(s) of the world.” The music program had indicated that it was supposed to have been the Agnus Dei from Missa O Magnum Mysterium by Tomas Luis de Victoria, which I wouldn’t recognize but which I’d expect the usual words in either Latin or English.

    Daniel

  88. RBrown says:

    Rome certainly has control over the Novus Ordo Missal. The watered down prayers, reduced signs of the Cross, geneflections, etc., remain in place.

    I agree that Rome HAD control before it promulgated the Missal, but national bishops conferences have had a lot to say about what has happened since. That’s why there’s a Liturgical Committee of the US Bishops conference.

    Rome has approved such practices as Communion in the Hand, Mass versus populum, altar girls, dreadful forms of liturgical music, lay readers, EMs, etc.

    You’re right and wrong. Wrong in that Rome didn’t initiate those practices, but gave permission when they were already in place. Right in that Rome did give approval–remember that JPII had big liturgical differences with Cardinal Ratzinger.

    Regarding the manner in which the U.S. Papal Masses were just offered, Monsignor Guido Marini declared the following:

    “I really like this variety of styles that has been prepared for the celebrations.”

    What was he supposed to say? Dio mio, era completemente un disastro!

    Rome established the guidelines for the Papal Masses…and look at what was offered.

    Good, now explain the differences between the NY and DC masses.

    When the Holy Father wished recently to replace the Traditional Roman prayer for Jews with a novel prayer for Jews, he did so without hesitation.
    Comment by Tom

    And when he promulgated SP, a lot of bishops stonewalled by producing their own guidelines.

    As I said, Rome is trying to get control of the liturgy.

  89. I believe the practice of the Pope turning to show the Host to the (Liturgical) north and south is a practice peculiar to the pre-conciliar papal liturgy, which was revived in a somewhat modified form here.

  90. RBrown says:

    Tom,

    I agree about previous popes.

    The change of the Good Friday prayer for Jews is a little thing, and little things are what someone does who is trying to regain control.

    Restoring the Offertory and (perhaps) suppressing certain EP’s are big things–and big things take time.

  91. Dennis says:

    Papal mass at National Stadium —- a foul
    Papal mass at Yasnkee Stadium —– a HOME RUN

  92. Jane says:

    Dear Father Z:

    As I attended yesterday’s Papal Mass at Yankee Stadium, I’d like to offer my own view from the pew, or rather, the bleachers.

    By no stretch did we have the best of seats, but just to be in the presence of this vicar of Christ was the experience of a lifetime. And when the Popemobile made its way out of the dugout, we all gave the best Yankee cheer we could muster. Believe me, it came from the depths of each and everyone’s hearts. The love in the stadium for our Holy Father was palpable and sincere.

    Even nature was happy to greet him. Our arrival in the Bronx was a gloomy one: foggy, misty, and cold. It continued this way for some time. But upon the arrival of His Holiness, the weather did an about face, welcoming the Pope with glorious sunshine in a cloudless blue sky, making the Bronx the best place to be on the planet on Sunday, April 20th.

    Our group of four was chosen from our traditional parish. Of course, we were very apprehensive about the possibility of witnessing abuses that have given stadium Masses the notoriety they deserve. We were, however, pleasantly surprised at the reverence that we saw in the crowd at large. For the most part, the people maintained a respectful silence throughout. Though there were those who were dressed as if they were going on a mountain hike, many of us chose to wear our Sunday best. Quite a few mantillas were spotted in the bleachers. And I was able to forgive the fellas who looked like the set up crew for ZZ-Top because their red t-shirts were proudly emblazoned with “WE LOVE OUR GERMAN SHEPHERD.”

    On the negative side, many of the musical performances beforehand were better suited for a concert warm up rather than a Pontifical Mass. We wondered what the correlation was supposed to be. It would have been wonderful to hear an Ave Maria sung by someone…anyone. Harry Connick, Jr. alone gave some remarks about the privilege of performing for the awesomely Catholic occasion at hand. This too engendered a terrific cheer.

    The angelic Libera Boys Choir was an exception; they were exceptional. And the releasing of numerous white doves made our spines tingle and sent us all cheering once again, all the while waving our papal-gold kerchiefs, for we knew our beloved Benedict was about to make his entrance.

    In the bleachers it was practically impossible to kneel, though we were able to make enough room for a momentary bowing-down low enough to the floor on one knee for the Credo’s ET INCARNATUS EST, as well as for the Consecration.

    Yes, there was incredible security: 6,000 police alone, beside all the firemen and secret service. But yesterday’s experience gave me a great admiration for them. Many of NY’s police and firemen, including many of the ones who lost their lives in 9/11, are Catholic. (If you visit the churches in the NY/Long Island area, you will find many photos and vigil lights for their fallen comrades.) When it was over, I thanked the secret service who were in our area, and I told a group of police officers they are still New York’s Finest. Their smiles and thanks to me said it all: they were honored to be given the responsibility for the Pope’s safety.

    All in all, yesterday was extraordinarily special. How proud I was to watch the papal banner being raised up alongside Old Glory. That’s how it ought to be, I thought, and tears welled in my eyes.

    Yesterday, one man, Pope Benedict XVI, managed to make 57,000 people his own. This, I am convinced, is for the express purpose of winning their souls for Christ by confirming the teachings of His Church…brick by brick.

    I ask you: Isn’t being Catholic the very best thing in the world? Those poor folks who stood outside the stadium with their anti-Catholic signs and hawking their Jack Chick booklets simply don’t know the wonderful essence that’s missing from their lives.

    Viva il Papa! Long may he reign!

    Jane

  93. Jane: Thanks for your comments.

  94. ALL: Please avoid dominating the combox.

  95. widukind says:

    Dear Fr. Z.
    I wish to thank you for your postings of the Papal visitation, along with your empahases and comments. Yours is the first thing I go to when reading the internet. I appreciate your insights, as well as your balanced responses (along with your wonderful sense of humor!). However, I am getting frustrated reading responses by
    a certain species of critic – the “Assus Whinium” subspecies “Adnaseum”, commonly known as the “Tom”. His comments seem oppressive, stultifying, and downright glum; sufficating under a lack of any sense of hope, life, or joy. I feel sad for this person so willing to be “right” rather than to be humble and transparent.
    (There is a far difference in being honest, truthful, precise, than in being “so correct”). Keep feeding us, Fr. Z.!

  96. Joseph says:

    The very insightful observations about “Let Us Break Bread Together.” (Comm. song)

    What about the second verse. “Let us drink wine together on our knees. How do you feel about this? Just curious, not trying to raise a polemic.

    I used this in many N.O. Mass, much to the chagrin of one particular modernist priest who, for what ever reason, just hated the song, really here nor there, but just an aside. Maybe the words were, as suggested above, to “old skool.”

  97. RBrown says:

    I wrote: “Rome has approved such practices as Communion in the Hand, Mass versus populum, altar girls, dreadful forms of liturgical music, lay readers, EMs, etc.”

    RBrown replied: “You’re right and wrong. Wrong in that Rome didn’t initiate those practices, but gave permission when they were already in place.”

    I believe that I am correct.

    The Pope is the Liturgy’s Supreme Legislator.

    Agree but see below.

    Nobody except the Bishop of Rome had the right to initiate into the Roman Liturgy, for example, the distribution of Holy Communion in the hand.

    Pope John Paul II initiated the option that permitted females to serve at Mass as altar girls. Prior to that time, said practice was not recognized by the Holy See.

    But Rome didn’t initiate the practice.

    On April 17, 1980, the Vatican document Inaestimabile Donum, approved by Pope John Paul II, declared that “Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.”

    Years later, Pope John Paul II initiated the practice of permitting altar girls to serve at Mass.
    Comment by Tom —

    A permission is not a practice, simply because permission doesn’t mandate the practice. It’s possible that something be permitted but never happen.

    The problem is that VatII 36.3 turned over to the national bishops’ conferences the decision on whether and how much vernacular liturgy is to be used. Athough Rome must approve those decisions, approval became little else than a rubber stamp. Once this happened, Rome lost control of the liturgy.

  98. Tom says:

    “Once this happened, Rome lost control of the liturgy.”

    Then SSPX arguments (also advanced obviously by additional Catholics) regarding the Pope having lost control of the Mass and Church are correct?

  99. Tom says:

    “But Rome didn’t initiate the practice.”

    I disagree.