Our friends at Rorate have posted an excerpt of an interview with Archbp. Kurt Koch the new President of the Pont. Council for Christian Unity. Here is an excerpt of the excerpt, originally with Gaudium Press in Spanish.
Gaudium Press: These two views [of the Church as People of God and as Mystery] also influence one’s position on the liturgy. How should the liturgy be understood today?
Archbp Koch: All those things that some people say that was new after the Second Vatican Council were not a theme of the Constitution on the Liturgy [Sacrosanctum Concilium]. For instance, celebrating the Eucharist facing the faithful was never an object of Tradition. The Tradition had always meant celebrating facing East, because that was the position of the resurrection. In Saint Peter’s Basilica, the celebration took place facing the people for a long time because that was the direction facing East. The second thing was the vernacular language. The Council wished that Latin remain the language of the liturgy.
WDTPRS kudos to Archbp. Koch.
Let the "New Evangelization" begin!
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Telling people this isn’t going to change anything one bit!. The damage is done and it is permanent. They should have talked about this 40 years ago, before the liberals changed everything. I will never forgive them!!. Never!. The ruined the Catholic Church, and I will never see the reform of the reform in my lifetime. Brick by Brick will take at least a century. Sorry for the rant Father, but this is how I feel!. They ruined it!.
All is not lost Becket. We can see the reform will happen with the good and holy priests, those who are obedient to the Pope. There will be small pockets of renewal in the Church. We can support the good priests, we can go to Mass where it is offered in a holy manner. The disobedient and prideful priests will continue to do their own thing until they die. Most of them anyway. We can pray for them. Maybe even give them good books, which they might read. I am very frustrated to, but we must be positive and hopeful.
Telling people this isn’t going to change anything one bit!. The damage is done and it is permanent. They should have talked about this 40 years ago, before the liberals changed everything. I will never forgive them!!. Never!. The ruined the Catholic Church, and I will never see the reform of the reform in my lifetime. Brick by Brick will take at least a century. Sorry for the rant Father, but this is how I feel!. They ruined it!.
Comment by becket1
I agree that most of us will not see the reform in our lifetime, but you’re dead wrong about the importance of what Abp Koch has said. There is a trickle down effect that begins with a certain unanimity of talk from the Vatican.
All is lost in my book. If this is how it was meant to be done. Then mandate the change now!. They will mandate the new translations in 2011. But what about the rest of it. Most priests won’t do anything unless their Bishops tell them to. You will have a new translation, but the clapping will still go on. What should have happened 40 years ago, was to keep the 1962 Missal, and put it in the vernacular and call it done. The problem now, is that most Roman Catholics only know from Vatican 2 to the present in regards to the liturgy. Most Catholics don’t even know about Summorum Pontificum. This letter should have been mandated to be read in every parish, chapel, etc, when it was released. But it wasn’t, so know after three years, most Catholics are still oblivious to the reform of the reform, or the EF Mass. Most clergy today will argue that most Catholics will not want the EF Mass. But that is because most Catholics have never seen it and experienced it. As for the reform of the reform, they argue that no one is interested in it. They like how things are. Yeah right!.
Quote: “I agree that most of us will not see the reform in our lifetime”
Then it’s time for this person to look East, whether Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. So I can go on with the remainder of my life in joy rather than anger.
Some traditionalists complain about the very existence of the Novus Ordo. Personally I’m not so sure I want my local parish priests to celebrate the Traditional Rite. I think they’d only make a mess of it, like they do with the modern liturgy. The crisis in the Church isn’t only liturgical, it also involves disobedience and doctrinal confusion. If every priest was mandated to celebrate the Traditional Rite only, the majority would treat it like they do the Novus Ordo. Better to have ‘model colonies’ of liturgical splendour in a diocese than to force priests to celebrate a rite they’d only destroy. The Novus Ordo will eventually be supplanted anyway -either with the Tridentine Mass or something very like it.
I agree with shane. But as for his quote that “The Novus Ordo will eventually be supplanted anyway -either with the Tridentine Mass or something very like it.”. I highly doubt it!. To many want to be physically involved liturgically. They consider that “the spirit of Vatican 2”. And even Rome can’t change that mentality no matter what debates take place. The Novus Ordo would have to become as strict, in regards to the rubrics as the Tridentine, for that to happen. And that won’t happen in our lifetime. Remember this Pope won’t live forever. And who knows what agenda the next Pope has. I think the closest you will get is the Anglican Use Mass. But that will be even rarer to find then an EF Mass is today. My opinion though.
I dunno why everyone is sooooooooo glum! I am just rediscovering my Catholic faith. The Rosary is the most living breathing prayer I know. It’s absolutely vital to me, with my defects of character. Our Lady is teaching me so much, through the mysteries, about the Mass and Adoration and the gospels. I could never grasp much before. I see her priests as her special sons, and the Pope who I never really paid much attention to.I would still be considered a ‘nervous order numnut’ by most traditionalists, I am sure, but to be aware and sense her presence directing my complicated mess of a life that I have offered to her, to do whatever with, I wouldn’t swap that for all the tea in China. I have much to do, and a way to go, but hey!! Way to go!!
Trouble is, on good days, it makes me want to jump for joy and sing ‘Shine Jesus shine’ so I will probably be given my marching orders from most traditionalist blogs soon, because of this tendency. Ah well, c’est la vie, n’est pas?
“One day through the Rosary and the Scapular I will save the world” These were the words spoken to Saint Dominic by the Blessed Virgin Mary in the year 1208 when she appeared to him.
Do we believe them?
becket1: I can’t remember the last time you contributed a positive comment.
Kudos to His Excellency.
I don’t see things as lost, the pieces are slowly being put back together. The new seminarians that are coming in don’t have this baggage towards the TLM, have a greater understanding of obedience and everyone that I’ve talked too is interested in doing things by the rubrics. Brick by brick can seem boring and trying on one’s patience, the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church
shadowlands,
All you have to do is think of something upbeat but a little less . . . . outre’ than “Shine Jesus Shine”. Like, say, Monteverdi’s “Exulte Filia Sion” or Viadana’s “Exultate Justi”. The latter is 4 part but the soprano line is extremely easy to pick out and sing.
More re “Shine Jesus Shine”: Anglo-Catholic Heaven
I’m with you, by the way. I love my parish, it’s NO but steadily adding more Latin, the rector is an older priest who was ordained before VCII – I think he ‘only had one change in him’ – but he does not stand in the way of more Latin and so forth (although he grumbles a bit). The point, if there is a point, is that things are moving in the right direction, it’s a friendly, faithful, active, orthodox parish . . . so I refuse to be a wet blanket or an Eeyore and **** and moan about things.
Besides . . . . it’s so much better than the Episcopalians, you wouldn’t believe . . . .
Dang . . . that’s “exulta” not “exulte” . . . guess that means fifty lines from Horace for me . . . .
It is such a relief to find prelates that have actually read the documents of Vatican II! Now, has Fr. McBrien ever bothered to read them?!
shadowlands–praise God for your interior conversion. May the Rosary continue to enlighten you and also renew your appreciation for and direct your focus to the center and summit of the Faith, the Eucharist.
I’ve attended Tridentine Masses at several different locations in 4 states and attendance rate by younger Gen-Xer couples is v. impressive. Also encouraging is the number of young priests exiting the seminaries singing/chanting parts of NO, Latin responses during Lent and Kyrie in greek. The prevailing modes of thought which developed NO and the ‘spirit of V-II’ which sought to justify it sickens me and I still marvel that people actually fell for that crap. I was a child and I knew better; I sensed it even if I couldn’t articulate the problem. But the above factors and the recent developments present cause to be hopeful.
Excellent comments by the Archbishop. At long last after 40 tedious years, the walls are coming down and the Emperor’s New Clothes are seen to be just that (to mix metaphores).
Back to sanity now with many of these encouraging new appointments. Thank God for this Pope.
I’m so glad we are hearing this from the President of this particular Pontifical Council. I am hoping we will hear even more of it from others in the months and years ahead!
I am in the middle of reading “Feast of Faith” by our Holy Father (Ratzinger at the time of publication) and find this post quite relevant. I have learned that the importance of where the priest faces is not so much about the direction he is facing (although east is traditional). The importance lies in the direction the priest in facing in relation to the people. They are to be in the same direction, so as their prayers are direction towards the same. I highly recommend this book to all, as it explains quite well WHY the read AND the black are so important. The actions prescribed for the celebrant and the people are not someone’s flippant preferences. They MEAN something, and it is this meaning that is important.
I also learned that there is no such thing as a “Tridentine” Mass, so says the Holy Father! ;-)
Sorry for the typo’s; they drive me crazy too!
¡Muchas gracias, Padre Zuhlsdorf! La noticia esta mucho bueno para el salud.
Last week was my first anniversary as a priest, so I celebrated a Mass of thanksgiving to observe the anniversary. I celebrated the Mass ad orientem (Ordinary Form) at a beautiful chapel belonging to a community of religious sisters in full habit. A few of the sisters formed a small choir for the Mass and sang in Latin.
It was a beautiful experience. I am at a loss for words to describe what I felt as I chanted the Roman Canon while facing the magnificent crufix on the wall in front of me. There definitely is a difference to a Mass celebrated ad orientem to one celebrated towards the people.
I believe that a golden opportunity to re-introduce Mass ad oreintem in the parishes is with the introduction of the new translation of the Roman Missal in English next year. Since there will be classes to educate the faithful on the reasons for the new translation, it gives parish priests the oportunity to educate them about the tradition of “turning towards the Lord”.
Becket: Forgive me, please. The Jesus Loves Me Protestant song has it’s place for us also…’…for I’am weak and He is strong.’ The many crosses in our paths, including the Liturgy, are there “so a greater good can come about.” (Fr. Corapi).
The Fatima Prayer…
My God I believe, I adore, I trust, and I love Thee, and I beg pardon for all those who do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee, AND the St. Michael Prayer with “by the DIVINE (added by Our Lady of the Roses)power of God” usually are helpful to me. Perhaps you also.
OK, has anybody else wondered what happened such that the Council Fathers issued Sacrosanctam Concilium, with all that it plainly states, and as soon as they went home something entirely different was executed? It’s as if the bishops had a Rome brain and a diocesan brain that they swapped out; at least the US bishops seemed to.
All is lost in my book. If this is how it was meant to be done. Then mandate the change now!.
Do you think that heavy equipment operators can function as neurosurgeons–just by mandate?
That is the present situation. At least half of the priests in the US don’t even have a first year knowledge of Latin. Further, they went trained for and expected to say vernacular mass versus populum.
They will mandate the new translations in 2011. But what about the rest of it. Most priests won’t do anything unless their Bishops tell them to. You will have a new translation, but the clapping will still go on. What should have happened 40 years ago, was to keep the 1962 Missal, and put it in the vernacular and call it done. The problem now, is that most Roman Catholics only know from Vatican 2 to the present in regards to the liturgy. Most Catholics don’t even know about Summorum Pontificum. This letter should have been mandated to be read in every parish, chapel, etc, when it was released. But it wasn’t, so know after three years, most Catholics are still oblivious to the reform of the reform, or the EF Mass. Most clergy today will argue that most Catholics will not want the EF Mass. But that is because most Catholics have never seen it and experienced it. As for the reform of the reform, they argue that no one is interested in it. They like how things are. Yeah right!.
Comment by becket1
I doubt that even half the American bishops read every papal document. Almost none of the priests do.
As I’ve said before…mandating liturgical practices will not make them happen, but not mandating them will make them NOT happen!
Father G, congratulations. You sound like a jewel. Young priests like you provide much hope for the future. Best, Tom
As I’ve said before…mandating liturgical practices will not make them happen, but not mandating them will make them NOT happen!
Comment by chironomo
On the other hand, mandating something that will be ignored is going to lead to undermining one’s own authority.
Ditto doing a 180, as JPII did with altar girls.