POLL: To which super-Catholic place would you go for self-exile?

There is a fun post at Catholic Vote: Top 5 place for self-imposed exile for Catholics.

I’ll send you over there in a moment.

I want to mention, however, an idea that I have seen on some blogs: a “redoubt” within these USA.  A “redoubt”, not in the sense of an elevated, defensible, armed position (though that is not ruled out!), but rather an area of the country to which many Catholics might move in order to network together and create a community.

Now to the fun: Go HERE and read about your options.  Then come back and take your poll!

Be sure to give your well-considered, carefully-weighed, thoughtfully-pondered reasons int he combox below.

To which place would you move in order to be a Catholic community?

View Results

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About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Global Killer Asteroid Questions, Lighter fare, Our Catholic Identity, POLLS, The Drill, The future and our choices and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

67 Responses to POLL: To which super-Catholic place would you go for self-exile?

  1. Austin Catholics says:

    Another take on the “I’m moving to Canada!” resolution made by both liberals and conservatives if their presidential candidate doesn’t win. (Or more accurately, if the candidate they don’t like does win.)

    After years of this kind of threat, haven’t we learned that people who say this type of thing are all talk and no action. People don’t leave the US for political reasons.

    As far as the reversal of DOMA, it’s unfortunate, but isn’t abortion a thousand times worse than same-sex marriage? Abortion has been legal for 40 years, and people haven’t left the US because of Roe v. Wade. Nobody’s moving to Andorra because of a court ruling on DOMA.

    BTW, there was a movement years ago for conservative Christians (by which I mean evangelicals or fundamentalists) to move to South Carolina to build in that state the kind of Christian society people imagine. Haven’t heard much of that movement recently.

  2. The Masked Chicken says:

    How about the planet Pacem, from Hyperion Cantos?

    According to Wikipedia:

    Pacem — A planet serving as the base of the Catholic Church; home of Lenar Hoyt. The Vatican and parts of the city of Rome were relocated there after The Big Mistake which was thought to have destroyed Old Earth.

    Perhaps, he is referring to versus populum?

    The Chicken

  3. The Masked Chicken says:

    Correction: perhaps the Wikipedia quote is referring to versus populum.

  4. apward says:

    Malta. For these wikipedia’d reasons:

    -The national language is Maltese. But everyone speaks English.
    -Malta doesn’t have a property tax.
    -Malta is one of the world’s financial centres.
    -Malta was ranked number 5 in the World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s health systems.
    -A 2010 Charities Aid Foundation study found that Maltese were the most generous peoples in the world, with 83% contributing to charity.

    Also, God loves Malta.

  5. Darren says:

    Since Tatooine is not an option…

    I chose San Marino because my birthday, September 3, is a national holiday… the feast of San Marino! It is also not very far from the place in Italy where my paternal grandparents hailed. Any place on the list sounds good…

    Of course, a place within my own nation is very very close… and what I would more likely do should things ever reach that point. Plus, I speak the language. I am thinking the Mystic Monks in Wyoming.

  6. CatholicByChoice says:

    Many Catholic Floridians may not know that there was a Catholic-only colony founded in 1881 in Florida in the area that is now known as Pasco County. Judge Edmund Dunne, a famous Catholic leader, began the colony for the same reasons that people today are concerned – government intrusion. The Catholic-only part of the colony lasted about 6 years, but the Catholic influence including St. Leo Abbey located in St. Leo, Florida, is still existing. The Catholic Colony stretched from St. Leo west all the way to the Gulf of Mexico. Many Catholic Floridians are already living in what once was a Catholic Colony and not even know it.

  7. Supertradmum says:

    I wrote a comment which was not published last time I looked on that site.

    Malta is dead.

    Divorced passed and abortion will come next year, most likely. Most women contracept-the birthrate high because of immigrants from Africa. I did not meet one Catholic woman under 50 with more than two children. I met only one woman over 50 with three kids. Many couple only have one

    Gay pride parade and art weekend just ended a few weeks ago in Sliema, and Valletta has become a gay mecca. There is NO TLM on the island, as it is still suppressed. Abuses in the liturgy are rife.

    Sad, as I like Malta and have friends there, but it is no longer Catholic, but secular. As far as I could tell in two recent visits, money and status are gods

  8. Imrahil says:

    Dear @Austin Catholics,

    there is, I guess, this point that Roe vs. Wade says that a right of privacy exists, deducible from some parts of the U.S. Constitution (insofar they were probably right), which forbids any interference of the State with women having an abortion. The latter part was certainly outrageously wrong… but still, the decision did not alter the official stand of any State that abortion is a misdeed.

    As far as abortion goes, we are, even in the United States (the situation in Germany is still somewhat better) still only facing negligence-of-due-protection. It is not the state who kills. It is the individual woman.

    On the other hand the whole point of the same-sex-marriage thing is to treat homosexual couples officially as what they are not.

  9. Robbie says:

    I chose Malta simply because I’ve been there twice. It’s a cool place.

  10. Agapified says:

    Any ideas on where such a place could exist in the US?

    [Some people suggest a few Western States, such as Montana and Wyoming.]

  11. MOP says:

    Ave Maria, FL (www.avemaria.com) is a wonderful Catholic town opened in 2007. With the huge Catholic Oratory as the center of the town square, there are at least three daily Masses offered when Ave Maria University is in session. 25 miles east of Naples, FL, it is an area surrounded by tomato fields and cypress groves. Nicely remote from coastal traffic and big box stores. It is a wonderful community with an abundance of big Catholic families raising their kids in a small town, and yet a wonderful place for retires who want to stay active volunteering at the schools, libraries, etc.

  12. Therese says:

    You have to enter into the spirit of the thing: I say Malta, mostly because I like the sea. (Now ask me why I live in NW Minnesota–it isn’t for the weather. ;-)

    Realistically speaking, it’s more likely I won’t be leaving even for Mad-Mom Wyoming. Our children are grown, and some have kids of their own; they’ll need help. And then there are the homeschoolers to think about.

    Just last night we were discussing death. I pray my husband goes first, because he ought to die in the arms of his family. But I fully expect to be murdered in a long-term ‘care’ unit and am trying to prepare for this now.

    “If I descend into hell, Thou art present.” He’ll be there.

  13. Bosco says:

    There was a time when I would have suggested Ireland but…’keeping looking’ is my counsel now.

  14. JGR says:

    Why not Saipan? There’s work to be done on the water supply system, but at least it’s warm there.

  15. johnnyDmunoz says:

    Does anyone know of a person, or have any suggestions on finding a spiritual director?

    I live around the Flint, MI area. I am willing to drive distances if I have to and will throw him some ducats for his help. Looking for a holy and wise man.

    I need someone to get me over the hump and move forward in the Faith.

    I will pray for you if you pray for me!

  16. iPadre says:

    I voted Malta. But, I would actually prefer Assisi.

  17. Salvatore_Giuseppe says:

    Well, I love micronations, and monarchies, las, I could not live under French rule, no matter how indirect, which eliminates Andorra

    This also eliminates Saint Pierre & Miquelon, and Wallis & Futuna.

    A redoubt in my own land would not legally offer any protection from laws.

    Which leaves it down to Malta and San Marino. Malta has the advantage of being an Island nation, and thus not dependent on any others for waterway access. However the climate is much too hot. Having spent too many years in Florida, I have vowed never again. So no to Malta

    And finally, who wouldn’t want to live in a micronation whose full name is The Most Serene Republic of San Marino, is the world’s oldest sovereign state and oldest constitutional republic, with the basis of its constitution dating to the 13oos.

    Consider me a future Sammarinese

  18. RJ Sciurus says:

    I learned recently that similar to the treaty issue with Andorra, Missouri might not actually be a part of the US and therefore, might be a good place to colonize. It seems that the US did not recognize Missouri’s secession during the Civil War and as such, did not force them to reapply. There is a Cistercian abbey in the Ozark hills of SW MO sitting on 5000 acres. That might be a good place to start.

  19. Personally, I’m thinking a nice, large chunk of farm and ranch land somewhere in the open spaces of Montana or Wyoming. Darren mentioned the Mystic Monks in Wyoming, and I know there’s lots of land available through both states.

  20. StWinefride says:

    I voted San Marino and my well-considered, carefully-weighed, thoughtfully-pondered reason: because I love Italy.

  21. Supertradmum says:

    I think being in a large place is much better than being in a small place-consider how quickly things could change; and those still going for Malta, read by bit above.

  22. LeighAnna says:

    I voted Andorra because it appeals to my rural ideals: lovely landscape, inaccessible location, and sheep. Malta was a very close second because of the cultural emphasis on marriage and family. But if it becomes an official option, I am all for heading out west and farming near the Mystic Monks!

  23. Philemon says:

    My reaction to a suggestion of moving to a redoubt is to “ride to the sound of the guns” and go to where it is not safe.

    If I was really serious about this, I’d say Syria or Egypt. It is one thing to be persecuted for thebFaith but another to do so in a very different culture and language. Am I a martyr or did I just inadvertently give grave offence?

    There are too many Catholics in New York. So, the toughest place I’d be willing to move is London.

  24. bwfackler says:

    in 5-10 years Mother Russia might be the place to be

  25. Priam1184 says:

    I voted Malta, but in truth redoubts have no chance in the modern age where armies and propagandists can reach everywhere. There are no mountains to flee to so one must stand their ground where they are.

  26. JabbaPapa says:

    Luckily I live in the Archdiocese of Monaco — Monaco : Catholics 95% ; Christians 98% (plus LOTS of visitors LOL ; but we do have the sunshine and sea … )

  27. bookworm says:

    Where to go depends on what you are looking for. If you’re looking for a society actively governed according to Catholic principles and morals, I’m not sure you will find that anywhere outside the Vatican (and maybe not even there). The fact that a country is 95 or 99% Catholic is no guarantee that they won’t legalize abortion, divorce, same-sex “marriage,” etc. as evidenced by developments in Ireland, Malta, and other places. Original sin exists everywhere and there is no “perfect” society.
    If you’re just looking for a place where Catholics will be left alone to practice their faith and not be actively persecuted or hampered from doing so, that might be easier to find. I suspect that even if it gets really bad at the federal level in the US, due to its size and cultural diversity, there will be places where state laws are more hospitable, or less hostile, and where federal law isn’t as easily enforced. (The persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire wasn’t equally intense everywhere at all times; some areas were safer than others.) Certain Western states come to mind due to their geographic remoteness; Texas might also be a possibility — it was, after all, once literally “a whole other country” and still acts like one to some extent. Other “red” states in the South and Midwest with a strong evangelical Protestant presence and strongly conservative leaning state governments could be more hospitable to orthodox Catholics than some of the nominally “Catholic” states in the Rust Belt that are run by liberal Democrats. I’ve been thinking of late that the time will come when I have to bail out of Illinois due to its ironclad domination by corrupt CINO Chicago Democrats. (If RJ is right about MO, I might not have to move too far!)

  28. trespinos says:

    I voted for a redoubt in my native country because the alternatives were not palatable to me for the reasons that others have mentioned. So, somewhat counterintuitively, I would consider moving to Portland, OR, in itself a hell-hole of left-coast secular humanism, but also the location of the parish that I previously recommended here to Abp. Sample for his mother’s residence–Holy Rosary. That could be redoubt enough for me, perhaps.

    Otherwise, I think Ghana might fill the bill. English is spoken there and the supply priests who have come from there to my diocese have been enormously impressive. A poor church, but very rich in the spirit might be the best place in which to prepare to meet my end.

  29. Dr. Eric says:

    What? No mention of Chile? The nation is 90% Catholic, abortion is still illegal there, and all Holy Days of Obligation are national holidays.

  30. Geoffrey says:

    For the purposes of this poll, I selected Malta. Even though its Catholic culture is coming under attack, any country with a constitution that states the following deserves serious support and consideration:

    “(1) The religion of Malta is the Roman Catholic Apostolic Religion.
    (2) The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and which are wrong.
    (3) Religious teaching of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Faith shall be provided in all State schools as part of compulsory education”.

    At this point, I think it would be much more realistic to salvage Catholic Christian culture in Malta than the Protestant (non-Catholic) Christian culture in the U.S.A.

    Realistically, however, I would choose my ancestral home of the Azores or even Lusophone Africa as places of exile for my family.

  31. q7swallows says:

    You wrenched a lot of tears with this post, Fr. Z.

    10+ years of deep consideration and very careful thought here:

    I have given up looking for The Safe Place.  In my case, God voted down ALL my efforts at relocation (some of them titanic) to what I calculated very carefully to be “better and culturally safer alternatives.”  All I conclude is that He wants us to be here and to trust Him enough to allow Him to be completely in charge of our lives.  And I am not to have any high expectations about others.  I am to love and serve Him no matter how ugly it gets — unto death.

    More and more, I have to bitterly agree with Luke 23:29.
    “For behold, the days shall come, wherein they will say:  Blessed are the barren and the wombs that have not borne and the paps that have not given suck.” Because it’s easier than watching your culture suck the life and spiritual vitality out of the next generation(s).

    Please pardon what some will call despair, but my Catholic version of ‘Survivor’ or ‘American Idol’ is the mother of the Maccabees.

  32. Johnno says:

    We need a nation and country to call our own. A new one born from the ashes of an old one. A new Promised Land to escape to, with the Church as its guide, Catholicism as it’s official State Religion, Catholicism within it’s entire charter and constitution, with a Monarchy under Christ the King with a formidable army and military might.

    It seems God and the Virgin mother have already set their eyes on one already way back before all the craziness really took root.

    Consecrate Russia!

  33. StJude says:

    san Marino was my pick.

  34. JPManning says:

    It is really interesting to me to read that people are thinking about this. I have had similar thoughts in the last few years. For those of the readership who are European Union citizens it is worth considering that our residency rights would allow a coordinated and committed group to make a huge impact on a country.

  35. Ben Kenobi says:

    I made my decision for several reasons.

    1, I wanted a place that was already known for it’s staunch conservativism. Europe, doesn’t qualify.
    2, I wanted a place with a strong Catholic presence.
    3, I wanted a place with job opportunities and someplace where it would be reasonably likely to find someone of like mindedness to marry.
    4, I wanted someplace hot. Snow – egads!

    I chose Texas. I ain’t going anywhere else. Already 3 years ahead of you – but I had decided to move here 8 years ago.

  36. Supertradmum says:

    I suggest all read Lord of the World and it is on line. Robert Hugh Benson’s book is prophetic. Interestingly enough, I read it in Malta once and passed it on to a friend there, as there will no safe completely safe places.

  37. phlogiston says:

    I wouldn’t necessarily count on a high percentage of the population calling themselves Catholic for any type of security. Self-identification means nothing. Those who don’t even darken the doorway of a Church on Christmas or Easter often still call themselves Catholic. Even those who do presumably attend Mass more than a couple of times a year can not be counted on. In any persecution you will have collaborators willing to sell out their own (witness the Catholic Health Association).

  38. Moro says:

    I voted Andorra because abortion is still illegal in most cases, thus indicating that the faith is at least somewhat alive and there is, I think, still some bank secrecy. If there is persecution of Catholics in the US, someone is going to have rely on bank secrecy to help keep the underground church going to help underground priests, etc.

  39. B16generation says:

    I picked Wallis and Futuna because I live on a tiny island and love it! Quiet, serene, God’s beauty everywhere, no hectic pace, little materialism, conducive to a prayerful life. Friendly folks ready to lend a helping hand, crime is rare, home-made community events fun. Combine the pros of small island life with strong Catholicism, fresh coconuts and mangos – WOW! As for Malta, my best friend is Maltese. It went from strong Catholicism to secularism. Being part of the powerful EU has had negative effects. Malta is flooded with immigrants whose religion teaches that those outside their faith are ‘infidels.’ We visited it – very dry – lifestyle much like most of western Europe, families shrinking, fewer practice their faith.

  40. jasoncpetty says:

    Meh. Long ago, Thomas had it:

    Uni trinoque Domino
    Sit sempiterna gloria,
    Qui vitam sine termino
    Nobis donet in patria.

    [“Patria”, here, is heaven. But you knew that.]

  41. PatriciusOenus says:

    I just got back from Ave Maria, FL. I enjoyed the people greatly, but not the weather (but it was June, after all) or the liturgical stripe. (Suum cuique as we say.)

    I would love to take a long vacation (like years) to St. Mary’s, KA: Live on the farm or within the farming community and have regular access to all the Sacraments!

    I think both St. Mary’s, Kansas and Ave Maria, Florida would fit the description of a redoubt.

    If you like the west, Lander WY has a flourishing Catholic community and is both off-the-grid as well as located in a gorgeous part of WY.

    I’ve also heard nice things about Round Top, New York (in northern NY); but I’ve never been there, so I don’t know the details.

  42. OrthodoxChick says:

    I’ve heard that Montana is purple and getting blue-er, so if we’re talking U.S., probably Wyoming or Texas. However, Texas is awfully hot and has more tornadoes than WY. Wy sort of has 4 seasons and less tornadoes, a Catholic college (a real one), and Mystic Monk coffee. A little snow never hurt anyone. I vote Wyoming.

    I linked here to an article a few weeks back that discussed how a group of libertarians got together online to vote for a state and then a town within their chosen state. They chose a town in New Hampshire to move to. I can’t remember the exact figures now, but I think the initial goal was to get 200 families to agree to move there. I want to say that at last count, 80 families of the 200 had gone through with it so far. I’ll see if I can find the article again.

  43. OrthodoxChick says:

    Links to the “Free State Project” of libertarians that I referenced above:

    http://freestateproject.org/

    It even made “Wikipedia”:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

    article where I originally heard about it (Fox News):

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/25/libertarian-movement-in-new-hampshire-10-years-later-successes-more-challenges/

  44. Lin says:

    Wyoming works for me! How I would love to be surrounded by practicing Catholics every day of my life. My husband and I have been on six Catholic pilgrimages and it is as close to heaven on earth as one can get! Sign us up, Father Z!

  45. Andkaras says:

    I would have to stay in Michigan, as we have had such a long history of living the faith ,along with such struggles with those who would oppose . A more northern vantage point may be necessary but there are none more beautiful than the porcupine mountains, and yes ,the Church can be found even thereabouts. I don’t think warm places will prove to be safe if the troubles come. North American Martyrs Pray for us !

  46. I actually don’t like this idea. In my experience I’ve found that when Catholics are bunched together, things are just harder. Better to have a few good Catholics spread far apart than a bunch of lukewarm ones stuck together like cattle in a feedlot. :) However, if it did succeed, Kansas is the state. We might not be Texas but we’ve got some good stuff going on, and our Gov. Brownback, from all reports, is a good practicing Catholic.

    PatriciusOenus:

    St. Mary’s is probably worse than any other town to attempt a “redoubt” in. Here’s why. You’ve got four factions: the SSPX, the NO crowd, the TLMers who actually believe in the Pope, and the rest of your small town folks. The small town folks think the other three are crazy, and the NO’ers think anybody who goes the Latin Mass is crazy anyways. It makes for quite an interesting mix! :D

  47. Kathleen10 says:

    Very interesting topic. I’ve thought about this for awhile, but not knowing where other Catholics may be considering. I want to go with y’all. Thus far, none of the mentioned locales sound Catholic paradisey to me. In one article Malta went from great (initially) to lousy. It sounds just like Rhode Island or Massachusetts, and trust me, those aren’t a Catholic paradise despite being lousy with “Catholics”. (most self-identified Catholics in the US I believe) They are now horrible, evil kingdoms, odes to liberalism of every and any stripe. Dissenters hardly make a peep, don’t dare to. One of those, probably Massachusetts, will be the first to welcome polygamy, lowering the age of consent for sexual activity for children, or marrying your cat.
    Of all the mentioned foreign nations, the one near Newfoundland sounded good to me. Warm weather and beautiful climate brings people of warm nations and trouble. Give me cool to cold weather and I’ll deal. Let everyone else rush off to tropical weather and coconuts. Plus, there is proximity to Canada and US.
    But, my vote was to stay in the US, and I read the comments with interest. Texas. Huh. I love the boots, already have them. Love horses. Wyoming. Same thing. One thing to check is whether or not Red State/Blue State. Let’s face it, it matters. I truly love the idea of a huge authentically Catholic community. What a concept. Someone mentioned being near protestant populations and yes, that would be advisable. We all need to work on fellowship with protestants, because we are going to need each other more in the coming times and together we are quite a number. I’d throw in with the Southern Baptists, who, morally speaking, seem to have a similar take on many social issues.
    My family is here in the US. Families belong together.

  48. Dienekes says:

    Hah. I retired at a relatively young age and moved to Wyoming 19 years ago. It’s not particularly Catholic here, but “Progressive” ideas don’t do well and we are a long way from Washington DC. No personal income tax, property taxes are low, and way more antelope than people. However the economy is strongly tied to minerals and oil, too many of the jobs are government-related, and small business prospects fairly anemic. It also runs in boom and bust cycles. People here are rather adverse to being told what to do and really resent nanny government.

    The Internet works and the Fedex truck comes around with my amazon Prime books, so I’m as connected as I want to be. Flying over parts of Wyoming at night, there are large chunks of ground down there where there are NO lights visible. Lots of stars, though.

  49. theophilus says:

    Idaho near the Grand Tetons.

  50. RafkasRoad says:

    Dear Fr. Zuhlzdorf [One Z is enough.] and Fellow Readers/Commenters,

    As an Australian who sees issues with island life (e.g. reliance on imports in areas where conditions do not permit full self-sufficiency_, can any Australian readers suggest suitable locales for we in ustralia to consider establishing a broader ‘intentional faith comunity’?

    I shall be relocating to the Shoal Haven by the end of the year for family reasons. There are five churches in the wider Shoal Haven parish; if families/individuals of sound Catholic Christian faith considered gravitating to said Parish, the ailing churches only open for one Sunday mass (four out of five churches) could be slowly revived family by family, brick by brick. Comparitive real=estate prices would allow those relocating from capital cities to regional areas such as the Shoal haven to wind up with a pretty windfall that can be re-invested into super-annuation or an entrepreneurial venture. We have a habbited Benedictine community (nuns) half an hour due West in Jambaroo, and closer to home in the Shoal Haven, one newly minted young priest (31YO, having been ordained only eighteen months ago) who serves two of these Sunday Only churches that could do with more support re prayer, tangible, financial, spiritual and theological as he finds his feet in what is likely his first assignment post-ordination.

    Aussie readers, let me know what you think, Fr. Zuhlzdorf permitting, of course. [“Zuhlsdorf”]

    Love and God’s blessings,

    Aussie Maronite.

  51. Kerry says:

    Hmm…my wife, the fair Penelope, in frustration & fury on Nov. 8th said, “Let’s get out of Minnesota!” We have been looking at South Dakota. Though not a Latin Mass, St. Thomas Church in Madison is stunningly beautiful! Stained glass and statues, and grade school next to the church. In Salem, SD, town of 700, is St. Mary’s Church. Latin Mass and and the church restored some years ago. Also, grade school next door. SalemCatholic.org Hoven, SD has a cathedral! http://www.hovensd.com/St_Anthonys.htm At Our Lady of Guadalupe in Sioux Falls, mass in Latin and Spanish. In tiny Dimmock, SD, also another stunning Church, http://saintspeterandpauldimock.blogspot.com/. Dimmock is home to a small cheese factory, since 1935. When I know for certain where we land, I will let you know.

  52. bookworm says:

    Too bad we can’t include the Duchy of Grand Fenwick on the list — it’s the fictional micronation in “The Mouse That Roared” that declared war on the U.S. in hopes of losing and receiving boatloads of foreign aid. I read that book, and “The Mouse on the Moon” (Grand Fenwick beats both Russia and the U.S. to the moon) when I was in grade school.

  53. PostCatholic says:

    I’ve long wanted to live in Cicely, Alaska, with its quirky townsfolk and absence of churches. Alas…

  54. eben says:

    I’m late to the party as ever; my wife and I chose a RC friendly, though not altogether RC location in far, southwest Texas….Uvalde. Extremely active RC community there. We love it. I’ve been to Malta; it is beautiful but it would make me nuts to live islandized like that.
    Pax et bonum

  55. jeff says:

    Interesting. I just watched a show about the Hare Krishna “redoubt” in Australia. It was interesting seeing all the practical issues that arise in trying to raise good little Hare Krishna kids and how the dynamics of the first versus second generation are completely different.

  56. jeff says:

    For an experiment of that nature to work, ie, circling the wagons, it would need to have strong lay leadership. Lay leadership with the power to enforce rules of the way of life of the community and, if necessary, expel people. That’s my considered opinion. It’s the only way to maintain the society.

  57. sprachmeister says:

    I would say Poland or maybe even Liechtenstein. The Prince of Liechtenstein said he would veto any attempts to legalise abortion there, and then they had a referendum on whether the Prince should be allowed to veto, and they voted in favour of the Prince retaining the right to veto.
    The Archbishop of Liechtenstein also ordains FSSP priests…

    The only thing that puts me off Andorra is the fact that one of the co-princes is Monsieur Hollande.

  58. lelnet says:

    Were I to leave friends and family behind, I’d probably choose St. Pierre off that list.

    “The most Catholic country in the world open to laymen”? Sign me up! A fish-centric local diet is such a plus that I’ve been known to fall into scrupulosity about whether eating fish on Fridays is really penitential at all. And while friends here in Chicago threaten to move to Florida every winter, around this time of year I’ve been known to threaten to move to Nome, so the weather wouldn’t bother me either.

  59. wmeyer says:

    I support Supertradmum’s recommendation to read Lord of the World. Sadly, it is prophetic. Anyone who cannot see in its passages at least glimmerings of our (U.S.) current head of state is in denial.

    Father Elijah is also high on my list. Our near future will be a time of martyrs. Cardinal George may have been optimistic in saying: “I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history.” Optimistic in imagining this vision to be so far off.

  60. msc says:

    Within the U.S., I’d vote for Wyoming: lots of empty land, beautiful country, and not too hot (Catholic state or not, I don’t think I could move to anywhere in the far south). I’d rather be on the ocean, but no coastal state is practical. With Wisconsin having only app. 500,000 inhabitants, all it would take is for some 200,ooo Catholics from elsewhere in the states that are self-employed and can work from almost anywhere to move in first. Then other trades and services could follow, etc. There’s already a good Catholic university there ready and waiting (Wyoming Catholic College).

  61. Jim Dorchak says:

    I grew up in South Carolina. There is a wonderful Latin Mass and Home schooling group in South Carolina, unfortunately SC is still part of the USA and all that you read in the news papers about our (now your) federal government.
    I moved my family from South Carolina to South America one week ago. (Safer, Freer, cheaper, Lots of Catholics) . Please turn out the lights when you leave, if they let you leave!

  62. mike cliffson says:

    Colonize th e moon

  63. Imrahil says:

    Extra Bavariam non est vita, et si est vita non est ita. I’ll stay where I am.

    If anything, I’ll hide in some village in the Bavarian forest, diocese of Passau, 88% Catholic, 55% separatist, (or so the rumour goes), 80% (I guess) at least favoring an “but fine it would be, for a’ that” attitude towards the monarchy.

    The most important thing is, though, to get some interior independence towards state legislation. The theoretical right of the State to command just things under both mortal and venial sin cannot be disputed in morality and I do not intend to do it, but both the justness of the particular cause, and the intention of having binding force in morality, can be very much so.

    We have to rely on the friendly local policeman, neighbor and drinking mate who does not meticulously exercise his orders – and I figure that they are still here.

    When the Roman empire persecuted the Christians, part of the way God chose to preserve our existence was that, apparently, the populace (though despising the Christian faith) thought this another nonsense invented by them-above, because they, at least to a degree, know and like their Christians. (It may not be thus in the persecution of the Antichrist, which is said to be unlike anyone that ever was and ever will be, perhaps for this reason. But until that, etc.)

    Gandalf exorcised Theoden, but to be able to do that, he needed the common-sense wisdom of Doorwarden Hama, who, breaking an explicit order, decided that he did not doubt Gandalf and his companions were good man, and let them in.

  64. Titus says:

    Lots of people picked Malta, but they appear to have overlooked a practical problem: Malta is an extremely difficult place to which to immigrate. The language and income requirements for permanent residency are rigorous. Sadly, it’s the only foreign option that would be much of an option for me, since my only marketable skill is my common-law-jurisdiction legal training.

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  66. Supertradmum says:

    This discussion reminds me of the long, almost 100 years of discussions in Europe, particularly England, by those Jews who wanted the establishment of Israel for the same reasons we are discussing these places. I studied this movement in depth for some reasons to long t go into here. but I can tell you, that the upshot of pogroms is Israel.

    Now, Christ sent us out to all nations, which is in the Gospels and part of our baptismal promises. Yet, I can see a need for a separate place. Remember, our beloved Pope Emeritus’ prophecy, when still Ratizinger, on the future of the Church.

    “She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members….
    It will be hard-going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek . . . The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain . . . But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

    And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”

  67. Supertradmum says:

    PS That was written in 1969. What were you doing in 1969? Too bad we were not all awake-if alive. This all could have been avoided. I think Greenland should be considered. It is where Google has tons stored on servers, so I am told by some techies, so it is practically off-grid. Just needs a TLM priest, Fr. Z.