The great Fr. Finigan, hopefully soon to be the next Archbishop of Westminster, has pointed out the existence of Wikimissa, a directory of traditional Masses worldwide.
This could be a very valuable tool.
For example, if this is kept up to date, it could reveal growth in the number of TLM’s being offered. One of the things critics of Pope Benedict and Summorum Pontificum say is that only a "tiny minority" of Catholics are interested in the older form of Mass. Some bishops say that they don’t foresee that anyone in their dioceses will want the TLM.
We should keep track of what is going on!
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Thank you for the information. I have verified with that website for the Province of Quebec. Of the 9 churches listed, only the Sanctuaire Notre-Dame-de Rocamadour, in Quebec City, and St. Irenee Parish, in Montreal, are legitimate; the other 7 are FSSPX.
This could be very useful if it limited itself to those who are in communion with the Holy See!
A quick scan of Australia reveals all SSPX Masses are listed! Good idea?? I do not think so??
In all this time, in all the parishes in which I’ve attended Mass in my travels, no where has anyone ever asked, taken a poll of ordinary people in the pews, or whatever to find out how most people feel about the TLM. No where! How do the bishops get their information?
What a great web site. I am fortunate to attended Assumption Grotto Church here in Detroit so have no problem getting to a TLM any day of the week. Indeed the site doesn’t even list all of the TLMs that are offered at my parish. Then, I checked out my home town of Bakersfield California and found two diocesan churches which offer the TLM, indeed California has a bunch so does New York. This is fun! Even after noting which are diocesan and which are not in communion with the Holy See I was surprised at how many there are.
Catholic Bob
WIll you keep this attitude after the SSPX is back in full communion?
I think SO!
Here is the bigger problem. We are all open arms to those who are not and were not ever Catholic, but we do not have any Love for those who, in my opinion, were faithfull to TLM.
I am not a SSPX’r but I still feel this way of thinking is dead wrong.
Jim Dorchak
Greer SC
Although there do not seem to be any comments on the English/American version of this site, there are on the original? French site. Criticism of the mixing of the Pius V Masses and the SSPX on the site are replied to by the site founder who explains that in the interest of unity he wanted to give information on both. he says that those who only wish to find out about one or the other are catered for on other sites. he hopes for unity one day hence his inclusion of both on his site.
Jim said: WIll you keep this attitude after the SSPX is back in full communion?
I think SO!
Why?
If the list includes SSPX chapels, if it includes both licit and illicit Masses, then to be consistent it ought to include any pre-Vatican II Mass celebrated by a priest who has been suspended by the Church.
Are the illicit TLM Masses any more illicit than the typical illicit Sunday or weekday Novus Ordo Mass regularly offered in every diocese in the West? I’d really like to know the answer to this. One case in point is that extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are everywhere used at every Mass, even if only five people attend. The regulation is crystal clear. EME’s are not to be used unless there is a great number of the faithful attending, and “a great number” is not to be arbitrarily extended. That means the Mass isn’t just packed, and it’s not just SRO, it’s SRO, around the corner and down the street. Every NOM that arbitrarily extends the term “a great number” and allows the SCHEDULED use of EMEs is illicit. So if you know it’s going to be illicit, and the SSPX Mass is going to be no more illicit yet will be more reverent, perhaps you have a choice to make. Either the NOM priest is in just as “irregular” a situation as the SSPX priest, or the bishop himself doesn’t give a hoot that his priests’ Masses are illicit. But, oh, those nasty SSPXers. Sigh.
I can confirm it is full of SSPX masses in the UK to.
To Jim – You are assuming that the SSPX will ever come back to full communion with what they label “New Church”, this is rather a big assumption based on my experience of them and many of those who support them, I do not see how the Holy Father can offer them more than has already been offered and yet they remain seperate denying his authority if not openly in word then certainly in deed. There is no more chance of them returning than the Old Catholics who split after Vatican I in my opinion.
It is because we love that me must tell the truth about them both for their own sake and the sake of souls who might me misguided by them.
I love the Mass but it is more important to be faithful to the Church than the Mass, there is a reason why individual SSPX priests are returning to the Church, it is because they know that there is something very wrong with the SSPX.
I did not see a link on the site to inform of corrections/deletions/additions. I’ve noted several of these for Florida and Illinois. Also, traditio.com which is problematic also has a more comprehensive listing which of course requires some due diligence in its use.
Jerry
There were about 25 people at Mass this morning. For the first time, I saw a couple with young children. I went to talk to them and found out that they usually go to the SSPX chapel. According to them, there are regularly 120 people there, and several young families with babies. Apparently, quite a few people go to the SSPX because they look for other families like themselves.
Meanwhile, the Archbishop of Glasgow believes that there are only 25 people in his archdiocese who want the Latin Mass.
Of course, what are 150 people (in total, between the two Masses) compared to tens of thousands? I have discovered that the average Catholic believes that the Latin Mass has been “outlawed.” I was just at a parish committee meeting the other night in which everybody present thought that Latin Masses were only celebrated by this weird, excommunicated little cult because “everybody knows the Latin Mass isn’t allowed, anymore.” They’d never heard of the Motu Proprio.
Jerry: You can make the changes yourself. Just double click on the page and try it out.
In all this time, in all the parishes in which I’ve attended Mass in my travels, no where has anyone ever asked, taken a poll of ordinary people in the pews, or whatever to find out how most people feel about the TLM. No where! How do the bishops get their information?
Good point.
The Dallas, Texas, parishes with which I’m familiar has neither taken a TLM survey nor addressed Summorum Pontificum in any manner.
Parishes within the diocese has conducted various surveys…everything from comments regarding the Mass to parish renovations.
But again, none of the Dallas parishes with which I’m familiar has even bothered to discuss Summorum Pontificum.
Naturally, the Dallas party line is that “nobody” is interested in the TLM.
However, at my parish, for example, people have gathered following Mass to urge each other to “call the parish this week…let’s tell them that we want the TLM here…call the Chancery…”
We telephone the Dallas Chancery…we telephone our parish…but it’s the same old story.
“We” (those who desire to assist at the TLM) don’t exist, according to parish/diocesan officials.
Once again I urge caution and prudence in discussing the SSPX, inasmuch as delicate negotiations are underway. Our own attitude to the Society should be one of gratitude for keeping the Traditional Mass going and one of welcoming.
It would be nice to see this to expand to NO done in a traditional way.
Either in Latin or with some parts in Latin with Greogorian Chant, etc.
These Masses also still follow the Tradition of the Catholic Church.
Ben, I think Father Z has said several times that, the more the EF is celebrated, the more it will have a knock-on effect on the way the NO is celebrated. I have seen NO Masses exactly like you describe… at my old parish in Cincinnati. (Old Saint Mary’s.)
Dear Greer SC,
Do we include sedevacantist Masses?? What about Masses by Pope Pius XIII? (Will you have the same attitude when they are back in communion?)
SSPX are not at this moment in time in communion with the Successor of Saint Peter. When (if!) they are to return then I would welcome them but at this moment in time they are schismatic and excommunicated!
Should we encourage people to go to a schismatic group (that includes people who are openly sedevacantist) just because it is the TLM??
Let us all keep in mind this recent quote from Cardinal Hoyos:
However, the cardinal took pains to say that members of the SSPX are not separated from the Catholic Church. “The excommunication applied only to the four bishops,” he said. While the Mass celebrated at SSPX chapels is not licit, he said, it is unquestionably valid. “Certainly neither the priests nor the faithful are excommunicated,” he added.
I think that people have been throwing out the baby with the bath water too long.
If we do not have welcoming arms to these good people then we are the lesser.
To all those who continually berate the SSPX. Will your heart still be hardened to them when the Holy Father embraces them and takes them in?
Yes we can argue that they are this and that, but it is the attitude that eats like the worm on dead flesh.
Jim Dorchak
Jim, I think we’d all gladly welcome the SSPX *back* into the proper Church. After all, we’re all keen to see more EF Masses, aren’t we?
But, there’s a difference between being eager to see them come *back* and going *out* to join them.
I don’t see how they’re going to come back, to be honest. I think some of them will – I mean, some already have – but there will always be those who will want to remain on the outside.
Plenty of people go to the SSPX even when there is a perfectly licit EF Mass available to them. There are too many of them that doubt the validity of the OF, and there are plenty of cranks and sede vacantists mixed in with them, as well.
Jim asked: Are the illicit TLM Masses any more illicit than the typical illicit Sunday or weekday Novus Ordo Mass regularly offered in every diocese in the West?
Yes, they are more illicit. On the one hand, you have a Mass celebrated by someone who has no authority to celebrate Mass. On the other hand, you have a Mass celebrated badly — sometimes very badly — by someone who has authority to celebrate Mass. On the one hand, you have a Mass that is unaffiliated with the Church, on the other hand, you have a Mass full of liturgical abuses celebrated by a priest in communion with his bishop and the Roman Pontiff. So, although both Masses are tainted by illicit ness, in one it’s the Mass itself in its entirety that is illicit, in the other it’s certain things in the Mass that are illicit.
Over the Easter tide the pastor of St Anthonys in Mt. Holly Fr. Kenneth Novak rented buses and visited a total of 7 local NO churches to pray before the Blessed Sacrement. He asked permission from the pastors of each of these NO churches and was recieved as a tribute to the validity of the blessed sacrement on display at each of these churches.
PRIOR to the visits Fr. Novak preached on the validity of the NO mass and the validity of the true presents of Christ in the Blessed Sacrement.
After the visits on their return jsut in time for the midnight Mass he again spoke on the validity of the Novos Ordo Mass and the Pope as the true Pope and the One True Head of the Church.
Why is this important you ask, One little SSPX Chapel, one seemingly unknown priest?
Because Fr. Novak is the editor and chief of the Angelus and Angelus Press. (an outstanding read). The Angelus is the official publication of the SSPX!!!
As such it is fair to assume that Fr. Novak knows the SSPX’s official position.
This is truth!!!!!!!!!!
It is too bad that so many are willing to spit on the SSPX like this:
There are too many of them that doubt the validity of the OF, and there are plenty of cranks and sede vacantists mixed in with them, as well.
I know plenty of these same type at the NO church that I attend. The homosexuals who attend reguarly, the ones who contracept and feel that choice is OK, the ones who think that ALL people who attend THE LATIN MASS are outside the church, even if it is an EF Mass (like the one that I attend).
My question is do you think that the NO Mass is valid? The official SSPX stand is that it is valid.
It sounds like many of the EF crowd are too quick to condem and not listen to other than GOSSIP.
Yes I can support these facts. Of course there are some who will never believe, and those will be the ones who do not accept the SSPX even after they are recieved bythe Wholy Father our Pope in Rome.
How about a little bridge building from the EF crowd?
How about a little Rodney King?
I am not saying join the SSPX I am just saying welcome them back in to the Church. This I know is too much to ask for the heard hearted.
Jim Dorchak
How can we welcome them back before they come back?
How can we welcome them back when they act like they don’t want to come back?
How can we welcome them back before they come back?
Comment by Volpius — 31 March 2008 @ 7:34 am
This is easy. First take off the blinders and stopp listening to the modernists who do not want them back, and then extend the invitation. If this is outside your ability do not fret, the Holy Father and Cardinal Hoyos seems to have it under control.
And
How can we welcome them back when they act like they don’t want to come back?
Comment by TNCath — 31 March 2008 @ 7:57 am
How can we welcom them back with your continued unsupported, rumor generated, stone hearted assumption that they do not want to come back?
Note: We are speaking about the SSPX not the Smiths or wilsons or some individual. One person or family does not make up the whole SSPX.
Have you gone to meet any SSPX priests and spoken with them. Have you been reading what is coming from Rome and Cardinal Hoyos? Well you need to…..
If you do not do these things you will end up stinking in the sunlight.
I think that Al Queda have a better chance and reception into the Catholic Church from some of you than the SSPX.
An uninformed opinion is worthless and I give up trying to open your eyes. There are other much finer men than I who will make this all happen, and I pray very soon.
Question: What are you going to say when they are recieved back in? Will you make up more rumors that they are not really Catholic, will you continue the mission to slander the SSPX? Or will you say that the Pope did not know what he was doing.
I pray not.
The pendulum is swinging back to the traditional side of the Church. I think that the SSPX is part of this swing. Some would have the far left continue as the norm. I do not see that continuing. Try, try, try to stop the pendulum. It will not happen……
Jim Dorchak
Once again, another discussion has been hijacked by a discussion about the
SSPX.
If I can go back to what I think the original discussion was about I’d like
to point people to a site which tracks and lists ALL the masses in the EF in
the Diocese of Arlington, VA.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TLMArlington/
Jim Dorchak wrote: “How can we welcome them back with your continued unsupported, rumor generated, stone hearted assumption that they do not want to come back?”
Nice turn of phrase, Jim, but completely untrue. By simple observation, the Church has generously bent over backwards to accommodate the SSPX leadership, and they have yet to return. What more do they want?
Jim Dorchak wrote: “One person or family does not make up the whole SSPX.”
This is very true. That’s why I encourage those who wish to return to the Church to do so individually and not wait around for Bernard Fellay and Richard Williamson.
Jim Dorchak wrote: “Have you gone to meet any SSPX priests and spoken with them. Have you been reading what is coming from Rome and Cardinal Hoyos? Well you need to…..If you do not do these things you will end up stinking in the sunlight.”
If I had an opportunity to meet an SSPX priest, I’d certainly do so. However, as far as I know, there isn’t one within a 250 mile radius of me. I have indeed been reading what is coming from Rome and Cardinal Castrillon. As far as I can tell, I am not stinking under the clouds (it’s a cloudy day here).
Jim Dorchak: “What are you going to say when they are received back in? Will you make up more rumors that they are not really Catholic, will you continue the mission to slander the SSPX? Or will you say that the Pope did not know what he was doing.”
I’ll say, “Welcome back to the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church! We’ve missed you very much! And God bless our Holy Father!”
The Pope has made the invitation they have chosen not to accept, well thats not quite true many previous members of the SSPX have accepted and they are most welcome but the leadership of the SSPX has not, I am not going to act like they are not in schism when they are. I am not wearing blinkers I have been among them as one of their own, and I have read the Bishops of the SSPX’s letters so I know what it is I am talking about, have you?
Hate to say it, Father: only a tiny minority ARE interested in our area.
Still, our tiny minority is very strong and slowly growing. If it is His Will, prayer and perseverance will ultimately win the day.
To Ben: our TLM priest celebrated Christmas Day Mass in the Ordinary Form, but in a very traditional way – in Latin, ad orientem, with chant & beautiful sacred music, the works. It was wonderful!
Have you talked to your priest, choir director, or others about your wishes. They might blow you off, but at the same time, they can’t accomodate a desire they don’t know exists, right?
Regarding the site – what a great resource for travelers & going on vacation. Thanks!