From a reader…
QUAERITUR:
I saw a tweet or whatever it is that they are called now starting an argument about whether or not people in the pews should bow to the priest when he enters to say the Traditional Latin Mass. Some say okay and others are really strong against it. One compared it to the “orans position” problem in the Novus Ordo that lay people should not do. What say you, Father Z?
What say I. Leben und leben laßen… live and let live.
The X/Twitter thing is HERE
There are no rubrics for this in the Roman Rite. If people want to do it, fine. If not, fine.
Is this like the “orans position problem in the Novus Ordo”? Not really. There are some people who adopt the position of arms raised with palms either slightly upward or opposed to each other in the manner of the priest when he prays the texts of Mass. They should not do that. While it is true that they are baptized, and therefore share in Christ’s priesthood, they are not ordained and they should not comport themselves as the ordained.
Bowing to the priest on the way in.
I can see how this might have developed in some places. I’ve seen it myself many times on entering for Mass especially if coming down an aisle instead of directly out of a sacristy to an altar.
I take it as a sign of respect for the arrival of the one who alter Christus, the priest who is also the victim, about to celebrate for them the source and summit of their lives. I’ve never thought for a moment that they were bowing to me, insofar as I am “Father Z”. They were bowing to “The Priest”.
It could have developed by analogy to signs of reverence toward the processional cross that is often carried. I recall that that was done at my home parish which had traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo Masses.
It could have developed by analogy to the honorific gestures which are in the Roman Rite for when the priest and sacred ministers enter the sanctuary. The custom for clergy and others in the choir in the sanctuary is to bow slightly as a sign of greeting and respect for the celebrant as he enters, passes by, or exits. It is rude to ignore such a person, who is acting at the moment in persona Christi capitis. Hence, a head bow or other sign of reverence.
It could have developed by analogy from the gesture people customarily make when receiving a blessing, as from a bishop who blesses as he enters and exits.
It could be that some priest told them to do this in the past, and the practice stuck.
I don’t think people should be instructed to do this. Perhaps, yes, in the case of when the thurifer comes to incense the congregation at the offertory time. It is a kind of mutual greeting: the thurifer and people bow to each other. It is like a sign of peace, only dignified.
These small signs of respect are not harmful. They can be helpful in a time when decorum is at low ebb. While we mustn’t exaggerate by piling them on, these gestures are helpful on the human level.
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“I take it as a sign of respect for the arrival of the one who alter Christus, the priest who is also the victim, about to celebrate for them the source and summit of their lives. I’ve never thought for a moment that they were bowing to me, insofar as I am “Father Z”. They were bowing to “The Priest”.”
That is what I have always understood that I am doing… showing respect to the ‘alter Christus’.
“These small signs of respect are not harmful. They can be helpful in a time when decorum is at low ebb. ” Agreed!
At my parish it’s common to bow to the crucifix and the priest(s) at the entrance and exit processions. I’ve always thought of it as Father Z describes it. Reverence to Christ crucified and the priest in persona Christi as they pass by. Not every one does it but probably the majority do. It’s an act of personal piety that can enrich your prayer if done with consciousness or become a mindless gesture (even if dignified) – just like all acts of piety.
Interestingly I don’t know how it became a thing most do. Probably a few had done it at other parishes, and it just caught on over time because it connects well with our liturgy. I think I’ve only heard Father make one off hand comment about it.
I have seen people (at very trad parishes) reach out and touch the priest’s chasuble, then make the sign of the cross when he passes by. When I was Anglican, the custom was to bow to the processional cross as it passed.
The priest from whom I received instruction prior to being confirmed in the Episcopal church taught that when receiving a bishop’s blessing, one should hold up the right hand (like when taking an oath) while the bishop is pronouncing the blessing, then make the sign of the cross. (This priest was formed at Nashotah House, known for its liturgical orthodoxy.)
The local ICK parish addressed this very topic in their bulletin a couple weeks ago (along with not genuflecting during Asperges me. Here’s the quote (minus the first part):
… when the priest processes in and when he leaves there is no need to bow to him. The only time it is appropriate to bow/genuflect is if the celebrant were a Bishop.
These two things may seem very small, and they likely come from a place of reverence and piety, but they are not fitting for the procession and Asperges. The Liturgy of the Latin Mass is very beautiful but exact. Please receive this fraternal correction with charity.
The priest, as alter Christus, is performing his liturgical office during the Mass and, as such, is functioning as king, priest, and sacrificial victim. Reverence of some fashion is needed and demanded. Such things as bowing when a priest passes by are acts of love, devotion, and reverence.
At my NO parish, though I try not to pay attention to what people are doing, it seems that, over time, what has organically grown is that people more and more make a slight bow when the priest passes and a sign of the cross when the crucifix passes. No one has told people to do this, it just developed in conjunction with the parish’s increased focus on Eucharistic Adoration and moving towards more sound preaching and proper celebration of the Mass.
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@Josephus
As a rejoinder to the ICK parish bulletin, there isn’t anything exacting about TLM for the laity. Lockstepping the laity into ridged patterns of behavior for TLM is wholly transposing the post-VII NO structure and desire to conform the laity’s liturgical action onto TLM. TLM isn’t congregational, conversational, or whatnot. Pre VII, what the laity did at Mass wasn’t a unified thing. Some followed from hand missals, some from a plethora of other books that had alternative prayers, and some just knelt and prayed the whole time. Different parishes would have one form or another be more dominant, but that would be organic and according to the piety and culture of the particular parish.
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Priests should encourage gestures and postures of love and devotion to Christ. There are many ways to show love and devotion when Christ passes by. Such should be encouraged.
This was a thing back home in El Paso. I’ve done it and I noticed it rubbed off from the older Latina grandmas etc. Never saw it in Dallas or at the TLM here. Got looks when I did it once and I stopped.
Josephus Corvus:
St Stanislaus in Milwaukee?
What our reverend host says.
But once people have gotten how unimportant this issue about an in principle defensible, though probably not-(as-yet)-traditional, gesture is, I’d say that the tiny-bit-better practice is … mine: I follow the processional cross with my eyes (as a soldier would follow with his easy the troup-flag when it is ceremoniously entered into a meadow his company is assembled in), so I have no time to bow to the priest. However, I would bow to a bishop, if I don’t bring it over myself to briefly kneel.
Does this idea come from the East? At the Melkite Catholic church I attend, the priest processes around the church a couple of times during the Divine Liturgy, and the people bow as he incenses or carries the holy gifts. The priest specified that the laity bow but do not need to cross themselves. Still the same idea of honoring the priest in persona Christi, though.
Another gesture that has popped up recently in my area, in addition to bowing as priests go by, is genuflecting as the processional cross passes by. Where it comes from, I have no idea, but it seems a little out of place. I mean, we usually only genuflect before actual persons rather than symbols of them. The symbolism of this act is not clear, which is probably why not everyone does it. I don’t want to make too big a deal of it, though.
At the SSPX church I often attend, during the procession up the aisle at the start of Mass, and again during the exit, the laity makes the sign of the cross to the crucifix being carried, followed by a slight bow towards the priest. Never felt quite comfortable with the practice but it seems harmless and certainly encourages proper respect and appreciation.
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I am fairly certain that the bowing to the celebrant as he passes on the way to the altar is a French custom that propagated around the TLM world because of the SSPX (like a triple ring at the elevations (one-three-one; one-three-one) which is not the Roman custom and was only a French tradition prior to Vatican II).
As Father Z mentions, it is not of itself prohibited and could even be laudable. I much prefer a congregation that is united in heart but not in posture. Robotic rubrics (common postures, Communion standing…) seems to be a trend that is cultivated particularly in the Novus Ordo, so let us celebrate authentic diversity by bowing or not bowing.
I love bowing. A mark of reverence to those consecrated hands that consecrate the bread and wine. I grew up NO and had none of this. Now I cherish it all in the VO. It’s a shame if priests discourage it since we the laity want to remember our High Priest Jesus at every moment.
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In most of France and much of England, certainly London, this is ubiquitous. I have never thought of just as an Old Rite thing, indeed it is not. (I am biritual in my practice).
It is, as others have said, a park of respect to the “alter Christus” as he enters in Christ’s priestly garments. But even if it were directed to the person of the priest – the ordained man who comes into our midst to perform the Holy Sacrifice for our supernatural benefit – would that be wrong? Misplaced respect? I think not!
Such critics must come from a very humanist, and envious position. We call it socialism. Get thee behind me, Satan!
Huh. While I bow to the procession, I’ve always been bowing to the crucifix in particular. I’m not sure where I picked it up. Nothing wrong with gestures of respect, in any case.
If I think of it, I do a little bow of the head as the priest passes by, whether it’s at the beginning of Mass or at the end. I likewise do a little bow of the head when I shake a priest’s hand (full on hand kiss makes many priests uncomfortable today).
When our archdiocese opened the TLM oratory that I attend, the first administrator specifically told us not to bow to him. He said that is reserved for the archbishop, the head of the order or any other dignitary. He and the second administrator made an effort to find out how things were done pre-VII at the parish that is now our oratory. Several locals were alive and attended mass there from the 1940s and remember exactly how it was done. Bowing to the priest was not done.
The parish was established by Germans which are now buried in the cemetery. German things like congregants saying the responses aloud and sitting for the epistle were the norm. So that is what we did.
In the last couple of years many new people have arrived and brought their own traditions like bowing to the priest and kneeling through the epistle and never making a response.
Leben und leben laßen. Funny Father used the German. My German sense of orderliness cringes at the disunity. Mass is much less enjoyable for me when there are a bunch of different people doing a bunch of different things. Our new administrator seems to have no interest in unity and no interest in what is going on in the pews.
It makes me sad.