I suppose this throws a spanner into the spanners (like theology, history, common sense…) already in the gears.
From CNA:
Pope Francis on women deacons: ‘Holy orders is reserved for men’
Pope Francis reaffirmed the impossibility of women becoming priests, or even modern Church deacons, in an interview for a book released Tuesday in Italy.
The question of whether some women in the early Church were “deaconesses” or another kind of collaborator with the bishops is “not irrelevant, because holy orders is reserved for men,” the pope said. [As anyone who is familiar with Vatican II’s Lumen gentium can affirm.]
The pope’s answers to questions about women’s roles in the Church were included in a book published in June in Spanish as “El Pastor: Desafíos, razones y reflexiones sobre su pontificado.” [WHOA… wait a just a cotton pickin’ minute. Last JUNE?!? And yet the “Walking Together” was discussing this? What else did they waste their time on. No… please don’t answer. It’s rhetorical.]
The book, whose title means in English “The Shepherd: Struggles, Reasons, and Thoughts on His Papacy,” was released in Italian on Oct. 24. The Italian edition is titled “Non Sei Solo: Sfide, Risposte, Speranze,” or “You Are Not Alone: Challenges, Answers, Hopes.”
About the possibility of women deacons, Francis pointed out that the diaconate “is the first degree of holy orders in the Catholic Church, followed by the priesthood and finally the episcopate.”
He said he formed commissions in 2016 and 2020 to study the question further, after a study in the 1980s by the International Theological Commission established that the role of deaconesses in the early Church “was comparable to the benedictions of abbesses.” [We have a modern word for what ancient deaconesses were: nun.]
In response to a question about why he is “against female priesthood,” Francis told Argentine journalist Sergio Rubin and Italian journalist Francesca Ambrogetti, the authors of the book, that it is “a theological problem.”
“I think we would undermine the essence of the Church if we considered only the priestly ministry, that is, the ministerial way,” he said, pointing out that women mirror Jesus’ bride the Church. [As does the human soul.]
“The fact that the woman does not access ministerial life is not a deprivation, because her place is much more important,” he said. “I think we err in our catechesis in explaining these things, and ultimately we fall back on an administrative criterion that does not work in the long run.”
“On the other hand, with respect to the charism of women, I want to say very clearly that from my personal experience, they have a great ecclesial intuition,” he said.
Asked about women’s ordination bringing “more people closer to the Church” and optional priestly celibacy helping with priest shortages, Pope Francis said he does not share these views.
“Lutherans ordain women, but still few people go to church,” he said. “Their priests can marry, but despite that they can’t grow the number of ministers. The problem is cultural. We should not be naive and think that programmatic changes will bring us the solution.”
“Mere ecclesiastical reforms do not serve to solve underlying issues. Rather, paradigmatic changes are what is needed,” he added, pointing to his 2019 letter to German Catholics for further considerations on the issue.
Hey! How about freeing up the Traditional Latin Mass? Look at the numbers! Look at the growth, fidelity and joy!
Isn’t that what we want?
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No. Not THEM. Even were every mainstream Catholic church closed after the last attendee shut the door and the TLM churches were bursting at the seams with Catholics and willing seminarians would that be the case.
He seems likely to rubber stamp blessings for homosexuals and probably recruiting them into seminaries openly. He seems likely to ban the TLM, the Mass of the Ages, once the thrill of the synod wanes. He can afford to kick that can down the road for his successor, or for himself if he lasts. He might, he seems Rasputin-like.
It’s too soon, so they’re still discussing it to pave the way later. At this point it’s like.. a footnote, really…
I know it says more about me than anything, but I just have a hard time trusting anything coming from Rome right now, which is why I’ve stopped following most Catholic podcasts, blogs, and news sources (not you though, Father. I usually find your analyses provide hope). Just old books, Scripture, and lots if prayer now.
Just keeping my head down, working on my vocation, occasionally looking up to make sure the coming storm hasn’t gotten too much closer to home.
When it comes to this man, never say never. He’s protean, an utter chameleon, a shape shifter. He says ‘nay, nay’ one day and ‘yay, yay’ the next. He’s a Peronist and the perfect Modernist. Zero trust in anything he says, particularly if he says something orthodox-sounding.
[On the other hand, he is also an octogenarian South American male. No way he approves ordination of women to anything. Besides the historical evidence and the theological argument against, ordination of women would introduce a wild card of disorder that wouldn’t be controllable.]
Interesting. With all the push to embrace sodomy, this particular agenda is not getting much traction. Someone might think Francis does not like women.
“Hey! How about freeing up the Traditional Latin Mass? Look at the numbers! Look at the growth, fidelity and joy! Isn’t that what we want?”
We all want growth, fidelity and joy but we Traditionalists must face the stark fact that the majority of the laity and the majority of the clergy do not want the Traditional Latin Mass.
[Your point, other than negativity, is what? Let’s also face the fact that the majority are tenuously Catholic and don’t know what they want. Moreover, they can’t want what they don’t know.]
Obviously, every orthodox adherent of the Catholic and Apostolic faith knows this, but while it is good he was clear, it is just a book. Is words spoken as a private theologian can be slippery.
If he really wanted to just settle the “distraction” all he needs to do is be as forceful and clear in an official Magisterial document, ideally like John Paul did.
Here is an easy template from that selfsame Sainte pope for copy and paste, mutatis mutandis: “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer [Holy Orders in any grade] on women [nor admit them to the clerical state in any manner] and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
An important note is when he points out that Lutherans have married clergy and women clergy yet, have difficulties with attendance. This would suggest that he looked at evidence and reached that conclusion. I think that his enmity of the Traditional Mass is based on his living through the sixties. This doubling down on what seems to be a failing paradigm is reminiscent of a Soviet bureaucrat doubling down on a failed five year plan. I have heard this before from people who lived through this time. I recall the eighties where often the best attended Masses were those that were the most well attended. However with time people drifted away. Schools and Parishes closed. Clerical and religious vocations have vanished. He points out the Lutheran problem may be one of culture. He and those of that opinion fail to realize worship and how you worship reflect and affirm culture. The newer approach used with the more liberal abuses reflect a culture that emphasizes the primacy of humans , not of God. The forgiveness of God is all encompassing, but to take it for granted, to spurn or minimize the need for personal repentance leads to the indifference we see now. Their approach to double down on the Spirit of Vatican II fails to grasp its inherent failure. I am not hopeful that they will ever grasp it.
My understanding is that “deaconesses” in the Early Church weren’t deacons at all. They helped prepare (and maintain the modesty of) female catechumens for baptism by immersion.
If you neef proof that praying for our clergy is vital, here you go.
T.C. was indeed divisive and rigid, but at least God is guiding the Holy Father to ensure women won’t be providing invalid sacraments.
Some might point to the debacle of Anglicans celebrating a liturgy at St. John Lateran. That is truly concerning and unacceptable. Nonetheless, at least we won’t have female “Catholic” clergy doing this worldwide.
“The problem is cultural.” Really?
“Mere ecclesiastical reforms do not serve to solve underlying issues. Rather, paradigmatic changes are what is needed,” he added, pointing to his 2019 letter to German Catholics for further considerations on the issue. Really?
So that bit of June 2023 allows room for the women’s ordination issue to get kicked around at the October 2023 Synod. Really?
“He said he formed commissions in 2016 and 2020 to study the question further, after a study in the 1980s by the International Theological Commission established that the role of deaconesses in the early Church “was comparable to the benedictions of abbesses.” [We have a modern word for what ancient deaconesses were: nun.]”
I read about this a while back. Nice to see Il Papa say it though.
https://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2016/05/deaconesses-a-reasoned-approach.html
Didn’t expect this so soon!
The first thing this brings to mind is that officially there will be no change, unofficially there will be pastoralism and things that look a lot to the untrained eye like ordination even though they will be given fuzzy terms that don’t officially contradict the official doctrine by the liturgical officials in the various bishops’ conferences. /end channeling of Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Is this so surprising? Pope Francis has surrounded himself with homosexuals. The official Church seems to be under the control of the homosexual lobby. Homosexuals don’t have much time for women.
Ceterum censeo, librum hunc esse legendum:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Deaconesses/4QP1JzaY-dMC?hl=en
https://www.amazon.com/Deaconesses-Historical-Study-Aime-Martimort/dp/0898701147
“Hey! How about freeing up the Traditional Latin Mass? Look at the numbers! Look at the growth, fidelity and joy! Isn’t that what we want?”
We all want growth, fidelity and joy but we Traditionalists must face the stark fact that the majority of the laity and the majority of the clergy do not want the Traditional Latin Mass.
[Your point, other than negativity, is what? I think also, we should reject your premise. Let’s also face the fact that the majority are tenuously Catholic and don’t know what they want. Moreover, they can’t want what they don’t know.]
Fr Z I am not being negative I am being realistic. Nothing comes from living in a fantasy. We should face that the Traditional Latin Mass’s days are numbered. It will disappear within our lifetimes. No point in being in denial.
Well, that’s 1 of the 5 from the Burke, et al Dubia that has been answered clearly.
Now… about those other 4 dubia… can we please get clear, concise, unequivocal and orthodoxy answers to them, please?
I think that an element of his modus operandi is to set everything up, allow everyone to play their hands, and then provide the decision which was made months before. This topic at the W-T was just a facade; done so that women’s ordination advocates could have their say. Anf the decision is announced immediately and in a way so they know they’d been taken in. They might be quiet now that they know they’ll never get their way with him.
He did the same thing with Rupnik. Lots of meeting with his supporters and a closed investigation, openly questioning his excommunication, and then we learn he was incarded a month earlier. All a show. Go ahead and complain, but it won’t change anything.
It’s all very Peronist/Kirchnerist.
The broken clock is right twice a day, however I remain not merely very skeptical but vigilant. This dog has retrieved the bone but their is always next year…and the year after that…
One more thing; this “blast from the past:”
https://archive.wf-f.org/JFH-Schism.html
Allow me to play “advocatus diaboli” for a moment.
What if this is a masterful set-up for the “synod on synodality” to indeed declare that the Holy Spirit is calling for the ordination of women, etc., prompting the Holy Father to come out and say “well, even I must submit to the Holy Spirit, even though I am personally opposed…”
However with time people drifted away. Schools and Parishes closed. Clerical and religious vocations have vanished. He points out the Lutheran problem may be one of culture. He and those of that opinion fail to realize worship and how you worship reflect and affirm culture.
JGavin, I wonder how much of this phenomenon (of people drifting away from a once-vibrant parish culture) has to do with the willy-nilly replacement of pastors every 6 or 7 years? If a pastor gets 7 years to initiate a new devotion (or a new emphasis on an old tried-and-true practice, like confession available before masses and on Saturday afternoons?) and then a new pastor comes in with different priorities, how the heck can a parish develop a lasting culture? In reality, the modern practice of moving pastors around every few years (and bishops too) is horrifically damaging to the Church.
Sadly, the Traditional movement is becoming exactly what Francis says it is. The US Traditional seems to have become exclusive, acting like it the bearer of all Truth, the only defender of the faith, but in reality, it is overly political to the point where one must be a card-carrying conservative, filled with ideology, even to the point of an intense obsession at the end of the Trump era with an unhealthy fixation of the Katechon. The issue with the Roman Church is Universal Jurisdiction, which is rejected by the left or right of the Church depending on who the Pope is. The church is already in defacto schism. [I disagree with pretty much all of that. You describe a tiny sliver of those who desire the TLM and not, by any stretch of an active imagination, anything like a significant minority.]
As for the Dubia, which was answered, but not with a yes or no. [Therefore, they weren’t answered.] Not everything in life is black or white. Are unordained lay deaconesses possible, yes, [There really isn’t such a thing, unless the word is used equivocally.] they existed within the tradition of the Church such as Saint Olympia. [Which, in the span of the Church’s history means nothing as do all aberrations.] Can homosexuals be blessed? Maybe! [No. Sin cannot be blessed.] Obviously, not a marriage blessing, but why not bless and pray that people live chaste lifestyles? [That’s not what you originally identified.] Are we not meant to journey with people and draw people to Christ, which may be slow, or are we going to fixate only on the sin? [Fixate? If there is sin, it must be addressed in charity. The goal is Heaven, not “make people feel good about the status quo”.] Sometimes the internal sins of judgementalism, anger, pride, are far worse than the sexual sins. [Yes, they are grave sins. However, what do you call a person who dies in the state of sin because of sexual sins rather than pride?] Those sins lack charity and mercy. [Charity and mercy must not run against truth.]