Roman Sunday “Tridentine-ness”

San Gregorio dei MuratoriIn the traditional Roman calendar, today is the Feast of Christ the King.  This feast, in the traditional calendar, fell on the last Sunday of October.  When in Rome, you can do as some traditional Mass adherents do and attend a reverently celebrated Holy Mass each day according to the 1962 Missale Romanum.  One place you can do that is at the little – and I do mean little – church of San Gregorio dei Muratori. 

Here are a couple photos of a High Mass at S. Gregorio taken today.

Mass at S. Gregorio dei Muratori 29 Oct 2006

Mass at S. Gregorio dei Muratori 29 Oct 2006 

 

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26 Responses to Roman Sunday “Tridentine-ness”

  1. Sidney says:

    little, but beatiful….

  2. Yu-Yu says:

    That’s how Traditional Catholics are treated in Rome, for those who do not know Muratori: a micro-church in a back alley.

  3. Dan says:

    Yu-Yu,

    I would do anything to have such a Church in my Archdiocese.

  4. Dan Hunter says:

    Thank you Father, very pretty.Father my wife and I are going to to Rome in december.Can you please give us the address of this holy church.Also how many people would you say it seats?

  5. fabrizio says:

    Yu yu,

    that is not entirely correct. I haven’t attended in a while, but there are 2 otherchurches for TLM in Rome. The one I used to go to was the Church of the Holy Namesof Jesus and Mary which is not exactly a micro-chruch in a back alley. In fact is isa splendid baroque monument on Via del Corso (Rome’s old “main street”).

    The other was San Giuseppe a Capo le Case. While I would like to have even evening news sung in Latin and I do agree that it is a shame that with all the Churches Rome has only 3 seem to have the vetus Ordo, I must say – with pain – that traiditionalists here have offered little more than sectarian attitudes to help improve this situation.

    One of the reasons I quit attending was that I can’t stand people who are happy only when they’re unhappy and live the Liturgy of our Fathers like something done against someone else

  6. Sidney says:

    Dan Hunter,

    Here is the map and location: http://www.fssp-roma.org/en/maps.htm

  7. Henry Edwards says:

    Fabrizio, I wonder whether it might have been a while since you visited the church of San Gregorio dei Muratori. I know one of the FSSP priests there, and would be surprised if the attitude you describe still prevails.

  8. fabrizio says:

    Henry,

    I apologize if my remarks seemd to extend to the current situation in San Gregorio, or even in the churches I mentioned at that. As I said, I haven’t been there in a while and for a number of reasons many of which have nothing to do with people and liturgy. All I said refers to the atmosphere of some years ago at Gesù e Maria. Nothing more. I know well that there are many good priests working for an authentic liturgic renewal and of that I am happy beyond tell.

  9. Fr. Marc says:

    I was at the Gesu e Maria Church today. It was beautiful. However, I do not understand why the celebrants do NOT use the 1962 missal. For instance, while the (sub-) deacon sings the epsistle/gospel, the priest too recites the readings; there is the last Confiteor; the bowing to the Cross at the Name of Jesus, etc.
    @ The FSSP chapel. A few years ago an article has been written by L. Bertsch: “Die Gründung der Priesterbruderschaft Sankt Petrus- Ausweg oder Sackgasse? ” It is ironic that their Roman chapel is in a Sackgasse / dead end street!

  10. Yu-Yu says:

    I know Muratori is not the only place in Rome in which it is possible to go to a Traditional Mass (in full communion with the Bishop of the City), yet it is the Roman church of the major Traditional order, the FSSP, which is a shame.

    Thankfully, it is at least in a somewhat central location, but it still is a micro-Church in a back alley…

  11. Deacon John says:

    San Gregorio reminds me of a little church that I attended for the Latin Mass on 12 Street in New York City. It too was crammed in between other buildings, and if you went too fast you passed it by. The church interior was gorgeous! Unfortunately, the Bishop sold it and it was demolished for a high rise! So sad!!!

  12. Joshua says:

    Fr. Marc, I do not see at all what you mean by “not the 1962 Missal”

    You said:
    I was at the Gesu e Maria Church today. It was beautiful. However, I do not understand why the celebrants do NOT use the 1962 missal. For instance, while the (sub-) deacon sings the epsistle/gospel, the priest too recites the readings; there is the last Confiteor; the bowing to the Cross at the Name of Jesus, etc.

    The 2nd Confiteor is often said in 1962 Masses…it isn’t part of the rubrics, but neither was it supressed at the time. The FSSP (and for that matter the SSPX) take the stand that it should be done where custom kept it, but not elsewhere, as it is no longer mandated.

    There was an old priciple, as well, of having the priest read all of the Mass. Now it is my impression that this was limited by the 1962 Missal with regards to the Gospel in a High Mass. But I do know that if the subdeacon is only a cleric then the Epistle is read concurrently by the deacon. If they did have the priest do all, as in accordance with the old principle, that seems like a very minor problem. It seems that things that are no longer required do not harm the liturgy if still done, usually. It would be another matter if they omitted the name of St. Joseph in the canon.

  13. Joe says:

    While I don’t have a problem with the traditional liturgical customs that were
    mentioned, I think it’s important to follow exactly the rubrics of whatever
    Missal is being used (be it the 1962 or 1970). In the 1962 rubrics, the priest
    does not read soto voce the texts that are sung by the deacon or subdeacon (i.e.
    Epistle and Gospel). From my reading of Fortescue, this applies even if the
    subdeacon is a minor cleric (or even a layman.)

  14. Catholic Lady says:

    Fr. Marc – some of the FFSP TLM’s I have attended use the there is the last Confiteor and some do not. I have been told (but have no documentation) that even though this was omitted in the 1962 missal, that the FFSP requested and received permission to do so optinally.

    We had a beautiful Missa Cantata today and the choir and scola were quite wonderful (well except for the one soprano who thinks she is a sololist instead of a part of the choir LOL)- and it was worth the two hours it took because of the music today.

  15. Dan: Someone provided you a map. I think perhaps thirty people might be able to participate comfortably. Gesu e Maria is much larger and easier to find.

  16. Fr. Marc says:

    As I see it, there are two directions we can take with the ’62 missal: backward and forward. The FSSP and ICRSP seem to go back to older and abolished rubrics. Monasteries like Fontgombault and Le Barroux instead go forward. The readings are being sung in the direction of the congregation while the celebrant is at his seat. The Per Ipsum is sung. I think new prefaces are being used as well. For me that is an indication that this missal is ‘alive’. Why not a healthy and very careful development in the light of tradition?

    I just found out that in Low Mass the congregation is allowed to pray the Pater Noster together with the celebrant! Who opened that possibility? Pius XII in 1958 (Instructio de Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia). Let us please not deep freeze our Liturgy!

  17. Fr. Marc: I was under the impression that it was even earlier, perhaps by Pius IX.

  18. Cyril says:

    As far as I know, Fontgombault uses the 1965 missal.

  19. Sander says:

    The FSSP Church could not be found by me, last summer. Well, why should I have.

    We had our own Priest (SSPX) “with us”, and we celebrated the Tridentine Mass every
    day in a different church (Il Gesù, Santa Cecilia). On Thursdays we were granted permission
    to celebrate on the priviledged altar of H.H. Pope St. Pius Xth in St. Peter’s.

    For those with a bus ticket, it’s an easy drive to Roma-Albano, on the outskirts, where
    the SSPX Priory and Monastery is, in a former Seminary bought in 1972 by
    sympathizers of His Excellency Archbishop Lefebvre.

    It leaves you to wonder indeed, that so few clerics in Rome are prepared to open
    up their churches for a regular Tridentine Mass. When will Saint Peter’s offer it
    on all days and Sundays?

    Yes, Fontgombault uses the 1965 Missal in Latin. Most definitely. Le Barroux does
    so too, to some extend.

    Pope John XXIII in 1961 forbade Priests to read or sing the Epistle and Gospel in
    a solemn High Mass. Of course those were the functions of deacons. Pope John
    correctly implemented regulations in this aspect.

  20. RBrown says:

    “As I see it, there are two directions we can take with the ‘62 missal: backward and forward. The FSSP and ICRSP seem to go back to older and abolished rubrics. Monasteries like Fontgombault and Le Barroux instead go forward. The readings are being sung in the direction of the congregation while the celebrant is at his seat. The Per Ipsum is sung. I think new prefaces are being used as well. For me that is an indication that this missal is ‘alive’. Why not a healthy and very careful development in the light of tradition?”

    $$$
    I first visited Fongombault in 1972, and both readings were sung facing away from the altar. My understanding is that this was long the practice in monastic high masses (perhaps also Basilican).
    $$$

    “I just found out that in Low Mass the congregation is allowed to pray the Pater Noster together with the celebrant! Who opened that possibility? Pius XII in 1958 (Instructio de Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia). Let us please not deep freeze our Liturgy!”

    $$$
    The public low mass is the weakness of the 1962 Missal (to me the high mass and private mass are superb). Unless it is a dialogue mass, it is often little else than a private low mass with a lot of people present.

    I have often told this story: Many years ago in KC, longing for Latin, I decided to attend the SSPX Church. There was no choir, so it was a low mass. I did not hear one word of Latin—for all I knew the mass was in Swahili.
    $$$

  21. Catholic Lady says:

    I must confess that I much prefer a high Mass or Missa Cantata to a low Mass. In my youth it was the other way around because I wanted to get in and get out and just meet my obligation. Now even though it may take two hours, I prefer the sung Mass because it gives me much contemplative time to participate more fully and be more actively receptive.

    Perhaps I will eventually memorize the low Mass and not be busy “reading” it along with the priest (which is active participation I know but gives little time to ponder and meditate on it).

    With few exceptions, I prefer either to most N.O. Masses where I have assisted.

  22. Henry Edwards says:

    I just found out that in Low Mass the congregation is allowed to pray the Pater Noster together with the celebrant! Who opened that possibility? Pius XII in 1958 (Instructio de Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia).

    Actually, my impression is that the rubrics for the TLM deal exclusively with the behavior of the celebrant, and do not explicitly regulate the behavior of the congregation (as opposed to the obsessive concern with such matters in the Novus Ordo). However, different things have been encouraged at different times. At any rate, paragraphs 31 and 32 (dealing with low Mass) from the cited 1958 instruction:

    “31. A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.

    There are four degrees or stages of this participation:

    a) First, the congregation may make the easier liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest: Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Deo gratias; Gloria tibi Domine; Laus tibi, Christe; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo;
    b) Secondly, the congregation may also say prayers, which, according to the rubrics, are said by the server, including the Confiteor, and the triple Domine non sum dignus before the faithful receive Holy Communion;
    c) Thirdly, the congregation may say aloud with the celebrant parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei;
    d) Fourthly, the congregation may also recite with the priest parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion. Only more advanced groups who have been well trained will be able to participate with becoming dignity in this manner.

    32. Since the Pater Noster is a fitting, and ancient prayer of preparation for Communion, the entire congregation may recite this prayer in unison with the priest in low Masses; the Amen at the end is to be said by all. This is to be done only in Latin, never in the vernacular.”

    I gather from some of the traditional forums that in many places the congregation is now singing the Pater Noster along with the celebrant at sung Masses. I even saw the surprising comment by an evidently hard-core trad. that this may even be a positive example of organic development. (“Hey, we’re all Vatican II Catholics now, aren’t we?” Though this is certainly not the way he put it.)

  23. Pes says:

    This might be a good time to make the following announcement:

    For what appears to be the first time in human history, the Graduale Romanum (i.e. the official songbook of the Roman Catholic Church) is now available to anyone, free of charge. Download, print, and sing the music of the universal Church!

    This e-Graduale is available courtesy of the Church Music Association of America (CMAA), which publishes the journal, Sacred Music. It is available in PDF format and has a text underlay, so the entire document is searchable!

    The arrangement of this Graduale conforms to the Roman Missal ca. 1961, but the CMAA has made available an index of Propers for Sunday and Major Feasts if you wish to offer Mass according to the Missal of 1970-2002. All you have to do is search the Graduale for the keywords in the index.

    Everything is available at the CMAA website page of liturgical resources.

    While you wait for this 1200+ page document to download, say a prayer of thanks for the tireless and sunny fidelity of Jeffrey Tucker, and maybe pop a little champagne to celebrate the occasion.

    Or download Smaller subsets of the Graduale as listed on the CMAA webpage.

    AMGD

  24. Boko Fittleworth says:

    “A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.”

    I think this is a false statement. Did Bugnini have a hand in it? Was the most perfect form of participation denied to lay saints before the dialogue Mass? I continue to believe that the most perfect form of participation is the uniting of one’s intellect and will with Christ’s saving actions made present on the altar. All other forms of participation (following along in a missal, saying responses, meditating upon the saving mysteries with the aid of the Rosary form) are valuable inasmuch as they aid in acheiving the aforementioned union.

    The elevation of vocal prayer over meditative and contemplative is a triumph of rationalism over mystery. Ie-it is a defeat.

  25. Henry Edwards says:

    Boko: Reading by itself the quoted extract dealing specifically with exterior participation may mislead anyone who concludes therefrom that Pius XII favored exterior over interior participation. From Mediator Dei and otherwise, I doubt seriously that he did. At any rate, this instruction had previously stated:

    “29. The first way the faithful can participate in the low Mass is for each one, on his own initiative, to pay devout attention to the more important parts of the Mass (interior participation) … Those who use a small missal, suitable to their own understanding, and pray with priest in the very words of the Church, are worthy of special praise.”

  26. Gregory says:

    The 1962 Missal is a hugely problematic piece of work, not surprisingly, since the majority of the innovations
    which were introduced by it were the work of Annibale Bugnini, whose subsequent ILLUSTRIOUS career is well
    known to all. I will mention only one of the more depressing novelties from the new Holy Week of 1955. The
    Passions of St. Matthew, Mark and Luke (read on Palm Sunday, Holy Tuesday, and Spy Wednesday respectively)
    were “abbreviated”, so that instead of beginning with the preparations for the Last Supper, they begin with
    Christ and the Apostles going to the garden on the Mount of Olives. This means that, since the Institution
    of the Eucharist is not mentioned in the Passion of St. John, nor anywhere else in the liturgical year,
    Annibale Bugnini removed the Institution Narrative entirely from the Roman Rite in 1955. THIS is the Missal
    which is going to serve as the basis of our desperately needed “Reform of the Reform”? I don’t think so!!!