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Pope might celebrate older Mass on 1st Sunday of Advent
In an ADNKRONOS story, we read:
The Pope: Could celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V in publicFor a long time I have thought that a single Mass by the Holy Father, with all the necessary solenmity, would effect as much if not more than the Motu Proprio.
Signs point to the First Sunday of Advent – The Director of "Latinitas", at last we will have a common prayer of praise to God.
The Pope could celebrate publicly Mass in Latin according to the Rite of St. Pius V. An official introduction of the Rite which, as far as ADNKRONOS has learned from authoritative Vatican sources, could take place on the 1st Sunday of Advent, the beginning of the liturgical year.
However, having both would be even better!
Will Marini be gone by then?
Comment by Arieh — 29 July 2007 @ 12:39 pmAnother source:
http://www.milenio.com/mexico/milenio/nota.asp?id=533495
Comment by Steven — 29 July 2007 @ 12:40 pmA public Papal Mass in the Extraordinary Form will have a seismic-intensity impact. Please God let it be so.
Comment by Ole Doc Farmer — 29 July 2007 @ 12:47 pmLead from the front Papa!
Comment by Stu — 29 July 2007 @ 1:33 pmThis begs the question: would this Papal Mass be celebrated with
the proper cerimonial of a Papal High Mass, according to the
“Caeremoniale Romanum” in force in 1962 – not to be confused with the
“Caeremoniale Episcoporum” in force in 1962?
That would be great:(falda, sedia gestatoria, Papal Throne placed
in front of the Altar of the Chair, silver trumpets, flabelli, praegustatio,
use of the asterisk, Holy Communion at the Pontifical Throne,
reception of the Precious Blood with what I will call “golden straw”
(I forgot its official name), Palatine Guard of Honour
(Pope Paul suppressed the Guard but
transformed it in “Sts. Peter and Paul Association”, that was then erected
and to which the members of the guard were transferred; thus, the members of
the association could fill the place assigned in the cerimonial to the Guard),
seven acolytes for the Latin deacon, greek deacon, double reading of the Gospel,
in Latin followed by Greek, etc.
A Mass coram Summo Pontifice celebrated in the presence of the Pope
Comment by prof. basto — 29 July 2007 @ 1:36 pmbut not by the Pope would have a simpler cerimonial, closer to the usual form of
a Pontifical Tridentine Mass that every Bishop can celebrate.
Was it not the custom to place the papal mitre and the papal tiara on the altar ?
Comment by Dr. Peter H. Wright — 29 July 2007 @ 2:16 pmOr was this done only at major ceremonies, e.g. canonisations,etc.
Prof. Basto: I was under the impression that the Pope only celebrated that particular sort of Mass about 3 times per year or so, and only at St. Peter’s…but surely that wasn’t the only solemn Mass the Pope would offer during the course of the year, right? I mean, if the Pope were to celebrate Mass at some other church (perhaps one in a different country), would he use that entire huge ceremonial he uses during the Papal High Mass?
I just don’t think Benedict is going to wear the tiara or ride in the sedia gestatoria. He already specifically said he wasn’t going to use the latter, and he removed the former from his coat of arms. I am also not holding my breath for the flabella. I do think he’ll offer an Extraordinary Form Mass, but not with all that other stuff.
Comment by Pius VII — 29 July 2007 @ 2:44 pmIf the idea is to encourage priests and bishops all over the world to start saying the extraordinary form of the Mass, then the more the Mass the Holy Father celebrates looks like something they could manage to say themselves the better.
Comment by SiFractusFortis — 29 July 2007 @ 2:56 pmWhile I agree with Prof. Basto that a full-on Papal High Mass would be wonderful to see (and the word you were looking for – the silver straw for the Precious Blood – is, I believe, fistula), I also think that a simpler, Pontifical (i.e. episcopal) High Mass, without the added pomp of the 1962 Caeremoniale Romanum, would both be more likely and also more effective.
As someone pointed out on another blog (Shrine of the Holy Whapping, iirc) in an earlier discussion of a video of John XXIII’s coronation, those who were steeped in that ceremonial system and could carry it off with due solemnity and in a natural way, are all gone. To restore it, without restoring the whole cultural mileu would likely have more of the effect of historical recreationism.
I am confident that, in time, some of it will return – and some other things will be added, but some of it will remain historical memory. (As Fr. John has noted in previous discussions, the intricate folding and pleating of the papal alb alone would require an attention to detail and labor seldom found today. Similarly, getting members of the Roman nobility to resurrect their ancestral roles as Sedia bearers, and do so in an unpresupposing way, would not be an easy task).
Comment by Tim Ferguson — 29 July 2007 @ 3:26 pmThe palafrenieri, who carried the Sedia gestatoria still exists:
Comment by SMJ — 29 July 2007 @ 3:53 pmhttp://www.parafrenieri.it/chiesa_eng.html
Pius XII and Tim,
If I´m not mistaken, popes of the pre-Vatican II period never celebrated the Pontifical (episcopal) Mass in the manner of other Bishops.
Popes celebrated Mass in public only in rare occasions. Save for exceptional
circumnstances (such as the Papal Coronation, enthronement at St. John Lateran),
the full Papal High Mass according to the 1962 Caeremoniale Romanum
was celebrated about three times a year.
Other solemn Masses in the Papal Court (either in St. Peter’s or in other
basilicas) used to be Masses coram Summo Pontifice , that is, Masses
celebrated in the presence of the Pope, but not by the Pope (instead, a
Pontifical (i.e. Episcopal) Mass was celebrated by a Cardinal,
but there were some changes in the caerimonial. If there was a sermon, it was
delivered by the Pope, who also imparted his blessing, etc).
The Mass coram Summo Pontifice was used precisely to avoid the necessity of the
full papal cerimonial.
I read somewhere that in the Pontificate of St. Pius X a cerimonial was developed
Comment by prof. basto — 29 July 2007 @ 4:18 pmfor Low Masses celebrated in public by the Pope himself (before that, Popes
only celebrated Low Mass in private).
The fact that we’re having this discussion is almost too tremendous for words!
Comment by Matthias — 29 July 2007 @ 5:26 pmIf I’m not mistaken, the Pope assisted at the Mass coram Summo Pontifice
Comment by prof. basto — 29 July 2007 @ 6:58 pmin Mitre and mantum (the longer form of the Cope worn by Popes in past times).
Better than the 1st Sunday of Advent—how about Christmas Midnight Mass in the Extraordinary Form, with its worldwide television audience!
Comment by PMcGrath — 29 July 2007 @ 8:36 pmSimilarly, getting members of the Roman nobility to resurrect their ancestral roles as Sedia bearers, and do so in an unpresupposing way, would not be an easy task
In fact, if I recall correctly from Papal April, the Pontifical Gentleman (who formerly carried the pontiff in the Sedia and now only carry the pontiff at his funeral in his coffin) specifically communicated to Benedict XVI their willingness to once again carry the Sedia.
Comment by Drew of the Holy Whapping — 29 July 2007 @ 8:39 pmIt would either need to be a Low Mass or someone would have to rewrite the ritual for the Papal High Mass. There are too many elements that just wouldn’t fit. The fistula and Mantle could stay, the sedia, flabella and tiaras, for example, would have to go. It might be like the ceremony for the installation of Popes, which seems to change each time it is used.
Comment by Michael — 29 July 2007 @ 10:41 pmIt would either need to be a Low Mass or someone would have to rewrite the ritual for the Papal High Mass. Actually, there’s no reason to believe it would be a Papal High Mass since that was only used on special feasts, not the first Sunday of Advent. There are too many elements that just wouldn’t fit. The fistula and Mantle could stay, the sedia, flabella and tiaras, for example, would have to go. It might be like the ceremony for the installation of Popes, which seems to change each time it is used.
Anyway, we probably shouldn’t talk about this too much. I’m sure that like the MP it will cause a lot of contraversy and ruffle feathers.
Comment by Michael — 29 July 2007 @ 10:44 pmSome time ago, an interesting outline of the special cerimonial of the High Mass coram Summo Pontifice – not to be confused with High Mass celebrated by the Pope Himself – was published in the blog “The New Liturgical Movement”.
Given that the ceremonial of the High Mass celebrated in the presence of the Pope is more likely to be implemented than that of the High Mass prayed by the Pope Himself, that outline is, I believe, worth a new look:
http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2007/03/pontifical-mass-coram-summo-pontifice.html
Comment by Prof. Basto — 30 July 2007 @ 10:02 amI wonder if all this pomp and circumstnce will help me love my enemy?
Comment by preacherjohn — 30 July 2007 @ 2:45 pmpreacherjohn,
If one were to assist at such a Mass with the proper disposition there is no doubt that the grace and edification received would aid in one’s love for neighbor (including enemies) and the fuller living out of the Christian life in general.
The tangibility and eloquence which great solemnity brings to the concelebration of heaven and earth should profoundly wound the hearts of those who assist properly and devoutly.
I have only assisted at bizarre WYD papal Masses and even in spite of the false liturgical climate (particularly in Canada) there was unique efficacy simply because of the singular presence of Christ’s priesthood that the Pope embodies.
Peace.
Comment by Sean — 30 July 2007 @ 4:49 pmpreacherjohn,
I’m sure you have read the descriptions in the Old Testament of the elaborate ceremonial prescribed by God for his worship in the Temple. Jesus worshipped his Father in the Temple. Though he said he would tear it down, he also said he would build it up again. All of the “pomp and circumstance”, under both the Old Law and the New, is directed to one end: giving back of the best we have to God. “Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany. . .There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? . . . Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.” (John 12)
Comment by Barrett — 31 July 2007 @ 10:38 amYay yay yay! As I wrote in my e-mail to B XVI on July 7, “Ideo reverecunditer Vobis propono et rogo ut Pontifex Romanus in Basilica Vaticana mox sanctam Missam iuxta ritum extraordinarium, Tridentinum vocatum, solemniter et pontificale, cum omnibus caerimoniis debitis, offeret, ad maiorem Dei gloriam, “ob memoriam passionis, resurrectionis, et ascensionis Iesu Christi, Domini nostri, et in honorem beátæ MarÃæ semper VÃrginis, et beati Ioannis BaptÃstæ, et sanctorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli, et omnium sanctorum,†et pro aedificatione magna totius Ecclesiae.” Could it really happen??
Comment by Publius — 31 July 2007 @ 1:23 pmat last we will have a common prayer of praise to God
Because we don’t have a common prayer of praise to God now? Really, how demeaning can you get?
Comment by Eric — 31 July 2007 @ 4:26 pmIf the Pope were to celebrate the traditional Mass on the 1st Sunday of Advent, it will be very interesting to see whether he uses the new Advent prefaces (as he believes this is one of the few clear deficiencies of the old Mass and real improvements of the new Mass).
Comment by PDM — 31 July 2007 @ 9:51 pmPDM: I think the option of the newer prefaces with the older Mass would be just fine.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 31 July 2007 @ 10:07 pm