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Archbishop Nichols at conference on the older Mass
Do you remember that there was going to be a workshop in England for priests who want to learn the older form of Mass?
Here is a report from The Telegraph about the participation of the Archbishop of Birmingham (not Alabama), Most Reverend Vicent Nichols who preached to the assembled men. My emphases and comments:
Apparently, His Excellency told the congregation:
So the first invitation of the Holy Father is for us to avoid speaking or writing or thinking in terms of two rites: the ‘Tridentine Rite’ and the ‘modern’ or ‘post Vatican II Rite’. We should respond attentively and consistently to this invitation.
Why does the Pope insist that there is one rite of the Mass? Because, whichever form is being used, the same mystery is being celebrated, the same rite is followed. There is one mystery and there is one movement, or structure, through which that mystery is enacted …
I hope that your study of the Missal of Pope John XXIII will help you to appreciate the history and richness of that form of the Mass. And I trust that you will bring all that you learn to every celebration of the Mass you lead in the future.
I have no doubt that each of us must strive for improvements in the way the ordinary form of the Mass is celebrated so that its inner mystery and spiritual movement is more clearly set forth. As Pope Benedict says, we must do all we can to bring out the spiritual richness and theological depth of the Missal of Paul VI, ‘for that will guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI will unite parish communities and be loved by them’. [Certainly one of the objectives of Pope Benedict in issuing these provisions was to create a gravitational pull by the older Mass on how the newer Mass is celebrated.]
Please remember that what you study here is not a relic, not a reverting to the past, but part of the living tradition of the Church. It is, therefore, to be understood and entered into in the light of that living tradition today.
The Missal of Pope John XXIII will remain the extraordinary form of the celebration of the Mass, for, as Pope Benedict says, its use ‘presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often’. And the decision of the Church was that, for general use, it needed to be revised. But there are truths of which it can still remind us and it has treasures and consolation to offer.
May the Lord bless your efforts in these next few days and draw you closer to the heart of the one saving mystery, that mystery which we now celebrate together.
I like this sermon.
Whether His Excellency is for the older Mass or against it, this sermon has precisely the correct tone. He is showing up where the priests are gathering.
He is taking a leadership role.
Here is a suggestion to those bishops who are hostile to the provisions of Summorum Pontificum.
If you don’t want that celebrations of the older Mass spread in different parishes of your dioceses, then take control of the situation by being friendly toward the older Mass, not hostile. Take control by making sure that there are stunning Masses at the cathedral or a couple well suited places. Go yourselves, Your Excellencies, often to be the celebrant or be in choro wearing every scrape of fancy duds you can put on. Since the moon doesn’t look very interesting when the sun is shining, take control of the situation by leading, not by promises of tests for clergy and undue, and probably illicit, restrictions or impositions.
People won’t be as interested in what they can have in the parishes when they can have it all in splendor with the bishops himself.
Lead from the front.
Father,
Comment by danphunter1 — 29 August 2007 @ 1:48 pmThere is so much talk about the Classical Rite informing the Novus Ordo and making it better.
Why not just do away with the fabricated Novus Ordo and have unity in one form of mass, which is much more doctrinally sound and presents the sacrificial reality of the mass, much more evidently?
After all, the Classical Rite nourished every single canonized saint in the Church’s history.
If it worked, perfectly for them, why change it?
God bless you.
“After all, the Classical Rite nourished every single canonized saint in the Church’s history.”
No one seriously believes this, do they?
Comment by Paul Goings — 29 August 2007 @ 1:57 pmDan: Why not just do away with the fabricated Novus Ordo and have unity in one form of mass,
Because, first of all, that is not going to happen and, second of all, ... that is not going to happen.
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 29 August 2007 @ 1:59 pmFather,
Comment by danphunter1 — 29 August 2007 @ 2:09 pmI bet you that the majority of the Fathers at the Council in the 1960’s never that the Novus Ordo would happen, but it did.
Why couldn’t the reversal of this problem occur?
I believe it can, and it will.
Let Gods Will be done.
Paul Goings:Every single canonized saint was nourished by the Classical Rite, be it, Latin Tridentine, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, etc.
Not one canonized saint assisted, their whole lives, at the Novus Ordo.
Kyrie Eleison.
Dan,
Eliminate the Novus Ordo… and you still won’t have uniformity of liturgical rite.
Or had you forgotten that the Latin Rite isn’t the only rite of the Catholic Church…?
;^)
Comment by Larry — 29 August 2007 @ 2:09 pm“After all, the Classical Rite nourished every single canonized saint in the Church’s history.â€Â
No one seriously believes this, do they?
I think that statement as of 2007 is a matter of fact, not speculation.
There hasn’t been a single canonized saint who was raised with the New Mass.
Even people like Mother Theresa spent more than 60 years in the TLM, and
was already a Saint by the time 1970 came round, so I think it is a fair comment.
I would like to see some children of Vatican II saints, but don’t know of
potential candidates….even those who are still living….
Serious qeustion, does anyone know of any “under 40” potential Saints in the Church
Comment by Matt Robinson — 29 August 2007 @ 2:14 pmtoday? -babies and small children don’t count!.
“Paul Goings: Every single canonized saint was nourished by the Classical Rite, be it, Latin Tridentine, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, etc.
Not one canonized saint assisted, their whole lives, at the Novus Ordo.”
Dan, I think that your last statement is correct, but unless you define “Classical Rite” to mean “every liturgy which isn’t the Novus Ordo,” then your first statement isn’t. (And if that is how you define it, then you still don’t have a premise to support your argument, but only a tautology.)
Comment by Paul Goings — 29 August 2007 @ 2:18 pmDan & Matt,
Asking for a horde of canonized saints weaned and raised on a Liturgy that’s existed for only 40 years is hardly a fair request. Knowing the speed at which the cause for canonization moves, please ask this question again in 50 or 100 years… ;^)
Comment by Larry — 29 August 2007 @ 2:24 pmPaul,
Comment by danphunter1 — 29 August 2007 @ 2:29 pmAll of the Classical Rites of the Catholic Church are of an organic development and are therefore very similiar and speak of great unity between them.
This cannot be said about the Novus Ordo which has nuch of the Series III liturgical prayers from a protestant community:Anglican.
This is disunity.
So I mean every Catholic liturgy which is not Novus Ordo,which borrowed much from Cranmer.
Kyrie Eleison.
Paul,
Comment by danphunter1 — 29 August 2007 @ 2:32 pmAnd the Lutheran prayer services.
Larry,
Yes it’s not really fair question for canonizations,
but in one sense it is a reasonable one.
In our age of info saturation, and considering the
millions of Catholics under 50 years of age, I think
it is reasonable to ask if there are any “holy celebrities”
out there among the post-VII generation(s).
I really can’t think of any heroic figures….i.e.
people establishing new orders, new missions, known for
heroic virtue….in the -50 age group.
This covers a lot of Catholics in a lot of countries.
Comment by Matt Robinson — 29 August 2007 @ 3:01 pmDan & Matt,
As.king for a horde of canonized saints weaned and raised on a Liturgy that’s existed for only 40 years is hardly a fair request. Knowing the speed at which the cause for canonization moves, please ask this question again in 50 or 100 years… ;^)
Comment by Larry — 29 August 2007 @ 2:24 pm
Larry, The Diocese that I live in had 60,000 people attending Mass in 1970…now it’s 25,000, our Bishop expects the numbers to drop “Well below” 20,000 in the next 5-10 years. In 50-100 years from now there wont be any Catholics in the North of England…ergo, no saints either..
. Unless we get lucky and the “Renewal of Vatican II” some how or another abates, we wont have a church left in Europe.
Comment by Jim — 29 August 2007 @ 3:14 pmOnly those who refuse to look life straight in the eye can fail to see what an absolute disaster the post Vatican II years have been for the Church. Bishop Nichols has “No doubts that each of us must strive for improvements in the way the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated”
Gee..Vince you don’t say..?? My wife and I walked out of Novus Ordo Mass in the Grotto at Lourdes 2 years ago, what an absolute disgrace, thousands of English pilgrims, complete with numerous Bishops..etc..etc.. and a Geetar ‘n Bongo Band that would have made the blind …deaf…I kid you not.
The Pope is a “Traditionalist”, Bishop Nichols and the rest of the English Bishops and others from further afield will have to get used to it. The Novus Ordo is holed below the water line and will sink, sooner or later….but it will sink.
Do you think the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated at
Comment by TJM — 29 August 2007 @ 3:23 pmthe Bromptom Oratory is lacking in grandeur and sacredness?
I agree, that the typical Novus Ordo AS IT IS NOW CELEBRATED
in most parishes is the problem, but it doesn’t have to be.
I’d be happy as a clam if my parish celebrated the Novus
Ordo like they do at Bromptom. Tom
Do you think the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated at
Comment by TJM — 29 August 2007 @ 3:24 pmthe Bromptom Oratory is lacking in grandeur and sacredness?
I agree, that the typical Novus Ordo AS IT IS NOW CELEBRATED
in most parishes is the problem, but it doesn’t have to be.
I’d be happy as a clam if my parish celebrated the Novus
Ordo like they do at Bromptom. Tom
Yes, all in all this is a good sermon but I have a few reservations about the second last paragraph.
The Archbishop says: “The Missal of Pope John XXIII will remain the extraordinary form of the celebration of the Mass, for, as Pope Benedict says, its use ‘presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often’”.
Perhaps it’s time we ask what is meant by the term “Extraordinary”. Rumour has it (and it is just rumour) that the Holy Father originlly intended to use something like “first among equals” but “Extraordinary” was settled upon. But are we correct to interpret that as something like “less often?” One could easily say that while both Uses are good the Older Use is extraodinary. Changes the complexion doesn’t it!
As for the necesssity of “a certain degree degree of Liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin Language” this clearly refers to the priests. The laity never did know Latin nor did they have a liturgical formation. In the Novus Ordo they still don’t have the latter. But there is no reason why a priest who wants this knowledge can’t attain it. Especially with the new situation.
The archbishop goes on to say: “And the decision of the Church was that, for general use, it needed to be revised.” I’m afraid His Grace is a bit vague with regard to who or what body he refers to when he says that “The Church decided” and He is equally vague about just what changes were needed..
Which Use will prevail? time will tell. It may be that eventually they will merge but with the Older Use forming the basis. I, for one wouldn’t object ot seeing the whole congregation singing the Pater Noster for example.
And finally, I notice that my good friend Paul Goings has entered the fray. Debate him with caution folks. He has a sharp mind and he knows his stuff.
Comment by David M.O'Rourke — 29 August 2007 @ 3:27 pmReturning to the Bishop’s remarks for a moment :-) it strikes me that his characterization that “one rite of the Mass [means] whichever form is being used, the same mystery is being celebrated, the same rite is followed… there is one movement, or structure, through which that mystery is enacted” is leaving something out.
For the Bishop’s definition would let us conclude that all the Eastern rites are forms of the one rite, too. The same movement (more or less), fundamentally the same structure, certainly the same mystery.
The various traditional Uses of the Roman Rite are much closer to each other than the Ordinary Form is to the Extraordinary Form. Especially when you consider the Office as well as the Mass.
One day I hope to understand what a Form of a rite is. Do the Eastern rites have Forms, too (as well as Uses)?
AJM
Comment by AM — 29 August 2007 @ 3:27 pm“The Diocese that I live in had 60,000 people attending Mass in 1970…now it’s 25,000, our Bishop expects the numbers to drop “Well belowâ€Â 20,000 in the next 5-10 years. In 50-100 years from now there wont be any Catholics in the North of England…ergo, no saints either.”
You know I was just reading about St. Augustine. During his life, there
were hundreds of bishops in north Africa. He and a few stalwart others
fought the heresies of the day with great courage. But after them, no one
came to fill their shoes. Within 2 decades there were only about 20 bishops
left in north Africa. A vacuum was created that would eventually be filled
with islam. The faith was, for the most part, lost.
We are in danger of this also in many places. Fr. John Hardon used to warn
Comment by Ave Maria — 29 August 2007 @ 3:33 pmthat whole dioceses would be lost and certainly we can see this happening
in some places in the world. The return of our heritage of the
extraordinary form of the Mass will be an aide I am sure but it is coming
so late to the battle…
Back to the issue at hand …...
Here is a suggestion to those bishops who are hostile to the provisions of Summorum Pontificum.
The concluding paragraphs of Inside the Vatican’s current-issue Survey of some of the reactions of US bishops to the Pope’s decision:
“The motu proprio and the accompanying letter to bishops are readily available to the faithful on the Internet, so no one can seriously expect to get away with misleading people about their letter or spirit. The Pope’s will could not be clearer, coming as it does after decades of writing on the sacred liturgy: the extraordinary form of the Roman rite is a great treasure of the Church, and should be actively fostered wherever there is a desire for it, and treating it with contempt is over. What was sacred and great for us yesterday remains sacred and great for us today.”
“That’s just common sense. And as of September 14, it is the law of the Church – a fact not even the least appreciative American bishop can change.” (emphasis added)
Incidentally, the bishops whose comments were summarized in the ITV survey were their excellencies Lori, Egan, Melczek, Trautman, Kurtz, and Burke.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 29 August 2007 @ 3:38 pmThe traditional Latin Mass, now known as the Extraordinary
Rite, originated with St Peter the Prince of the
Apostles and is the Ancient Roman Rite.
Upon his conversion, St Francis of Asissi, wishing to live
Comment by Angelo Panzica — 29 August 2007 @ 3:40 pmthe same religious life that the Apostles lived with
Jesus Christ the three years before He was crucified,
petitioned Pope Innocent III to take as the rite of his
(Francis)Order of Friars Minor, the ancient Rite of the Roman
Church which was held to be the “Rite of St Peter the
Apostle”. During the pontificate of Innocent III, this
rite was only used on the Feast of the Chair of St Peter,
in the private papal Chapel, for the so-called Gallican Rite
was universally employed in the Diocese of Rome. Only three
known copies of the liaturgical books of this rite were still
extant in 1215, one of which was falling to pieces. Pope
Innoncent III granted St Francis’ request and gave him one
of the good, still extant copies of the Sacramentum, Lectionary
Ritual and other books. The Franciscans are responsible
for introducing this Mass to the rest of Europe and eventually
to the New World. Pope St Pius V, a Dominican, broke with
his own spiriutality, and canonized this Mass. Thank you
Saint Francis of Assisi.
Incidentally, the bishops whose comments were summarized in the ITV survey were their excellencies Lori, Egan, Melczek, Trautman, Kurtz, and Burke.
And also Bishop Michael Jarrell of Lafayette, LA, whose statement was included in its entirety. The others were only extracted.
Comment by Henry Edwards — 29 August 2007 @ 3:45 pmAfter all, the Classical Rite nourished every single canonized saint in the Church’s history.
Not true. St. Sharbel Mahlouf was nourished on the Maronite Rite, not the Classical Roman Rite. It would be easy to find many other approved saints from non-Roman rites.
Comment by Jordan Potter — 29 August 2007 @ 3:46 pmDan,
Your comments jogged my memory of this past weekend.
“This cannot be said about the Novus Ordo which has nuch of the Series III liturgical prayers from a protestant community:Anglican. This is disunity. So I mean every Catholic liturgy which is not Novus Ordo,which borrowed much from Cranmer.Kyrie Eleison.
And the Lutheran prayer services.”
The spirit of the “Renewal” of the liturgy, hit home this weekend, while
attending my wife’s friend’s wedding. She is Lutheran, so we attended
the 15 minute wedding ceremony. (I don’t like entering these places, but
couldn’t avoid it…oh well it was real liturgical education for me).
This must have been a Traditional Lutheran Parish…
The “table-altar” looked more like an altar than most of our altars.
And it faced East-i.e. ad orientam and against the wall (well no..it was
built into a beautiful gothic-style altarpiece). It had an altar
cross on its centre, and a stained glass window depicting Jesus above it.
The only similarity to the Novus Ordo altar were the two candles on it.
Other than that, it looked exactly like a traditional Catholic altar.
Next, in front of the “sanctuary” was a beautiful wooden altar rail, complete
with kneelers, just like our Traditional churches.
I opened up the “Lutheran Book of Worship” out of curiosity and began
reading.
I was immediately struck by the amount of latin, and the beautiful, old-style
English translations.
The prayer service had titles for each part….in latin!
Introit
Kyrie
Gradual
Gloria
Alleluia
Sanctus
Agnus Dei
Communio
Flabbergasted, I was uttlerly struck dumb by seeing “Te Deum”
at the end of the service for special occasions.
So I keep flipping through and arrive at