Here is a very interesting e-mail from a frustrated reader (edited) and with my emphases and comments.
Dear Reverend Father,
[T]he Archdioces of Miami Radio Station, Radio Peace, is running a poll regarding what music people like at Mass.
This, after they decided to discuss Sacred Music a couple of days ago. The topic was "What kind of music do you prefer at Mass?" There were callers for whom Gregorian Chant and Polyphony is just not "with it." Someone actually called and said that it was Euro-Centric! (I thought the Catholic Church invented European culture?) The response from the host was "Well, isn’t it great that we have something for everybody in the Archdiocese of Miami!"
Well I called in and reminded the host that Gregorian Chant and Polyphany, according to at least one or two authoritative Catholic sources, have "pride of place" in the liturgy. I then followed up with an email and a post to the official website of the show "Faith Factor" http://www.faithfactor.org/ but since it is moderated my post never made it to the blog. Hmmmm? [So, the very sort of music the Church as advocated and given pride of place was not even included in the poll.]
Instead, the next day, the blog had a poll asking listeners to decide what music they like. The choices and the results are below. Also, there were several entries on "praise and worship" music. And a post which announced that "Traditional hyms can be a bit outdated…"
__________________________________________________________
What kind of music do you prefer when you go to Mass?
Very contemporary praise & worship.
19 (67%)
More conservative, traditional Catholic hymns.
9 (32%)
I’d rather not have any music at Mass.
0 (0%)
It’s been so long since I went to mass that I don’t really care.
0 (0%)
Vote on this poll
Votes so far: 28 [<—– So many?]
Days left to vote: 24
__________
Could you ask some of your readers to help out in the cause of the traditional music vote? My hope is to get the host of the radio show to take a closer look at tradional music. He is apparently a "worship leader" for a charismatic band. If it isn’t possible to ask your readers to vote I would like to take the opprotunity to thank you for your blog. Words cannot describe my gratitude at the fruit of your time and effort. May the Lord continue to bless you according to the perfect intercession of the Immaculate Conception.
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Thank you Father Z, The votes are now:
Very contemporary praise & worship. 19 (43%)
More conservative, traditional Catholic hymns. 24 (54%)
I’d rather not have any music at Mass. 1 (2%)
…and climbing. I think that might be more traffic than they’ve had in one day… a record.
My hope is to get the host to take a closer listen to these treasures of our tradition.
Luis
PS I tried to use your “Rules of Engagement” when I e mailed the show…. thank you for your “Rules”
We need to be careful, though. We don’t want things to look out of control. If everyone goes over there and votes they’ll just complain that someone used a bot, or went recruiting (which is somewhat true). The traditional option should definately win, it just shouldn’t be overly schewed.
Even the legions of people numbed by 25 years of liturgical banality can see the superficiality in the “performance” of a mini-skirted guitar player with tears streaming down her face after five long, wailing, repetitions of the refrain of “On Eagle’s Wings” or some other pablum passing for music.
UPDATE – seems contemporary is stuck on 19
Very contemporary praise & worship. 19 (22%)
More conservative, traditional Catholic hymns. 62 (73%)
I’d rather not have any music at Mass. 3 (3%)
It’s been so long since I went to mass that I don’t really care. 0 (0%)
Too late on the skewing of numbers–the latest shows 74% favor traditional music.
Wow, this is important (sarcasm). Also, I doubt it helps matters by skewing the data.
80% now :)
Sweet – it’s up to 82% now and the site crashed for a few moments.
I just found this today:
Tchaikovsky’s “Hymn to the Trinity” at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis
Talk about music that humbles and inspires… Try getting that with a contemporary praise song.
Heh. We seem to have broken it. There’s no way they’ll take that poll seriously now.
If I wanted traditional Hymns I would attend a celebration of Lauds or Vespers. Too bad there is no category such as: Do you prefer the propers of Mass sung or do you prefer a hymn substitute?
This guy is studying for the diaconate. Perhaps praying for him would be a good idea as well.
Oopps! I voted and the votes is 88% for traditional hymns = 172 votes. I think they can at least take the votes seriously or at we can make comments as to why we voted for traditional hymns. Don’t get me wrong I’m a ‘Charismatic’ and do lsiten to Hillsong and other Pentecostal music (within the Catholic understanding of course) but I think the respective traditional chants (e.g. Gregorian, Sarum, Byzantine, Russian, etc) should be the one used at their respective rites of the Holy Mass.
Instavrare Omnia In Christo,
Ummm I think we cooked the poll there. Its approaching 90% …
What is the point of stuffing the ballot box?
I went there, and was amazed, (well, not really, as I have “been there, done that,” myself, and as such, is why I recogngize it so well) at the completely and unabashedly Protestant jargon, so much so that I even questioned the host via email why the need to constantly use the article “the” in front of the word Mass, as in “the Holy Mass, where most Catholics just say “Holy Mass.” (At least the capital letters are there) but I digress only to say that this typifies a lot of the well intentioned efforts, of young people, especially, in trying to construct a meaningful alternative to our sometimes vapid worship in the post Vatican II church, and their models of spiritual vibrancy are very much Protestant, especially style-wise in their mode of expression in worship.
Anyway, in reponse to the poll question, in the “comments” section I wrote:
I believe to obtain a response that is meaningful and tells the “whole story,” so to speak, the question needs to be re-framed.
As a contemporary — jazz and gospel — composer (GIA published even [in Snagglepus voice] and I will ask you to believe that my contemporary credentials, and charismatic, as well, are in order) — I have, of late, been convinced that what we do not need is music “at” Mass, or “in” Mass, but rather, we should be “singing the Mass” and that means paying attention to things like entrance antiphons, communion antiphons, (particular to the day -IOW the “Propers” of the Mass), and, of course, the Ordinary, and those both sung most appropriately in Gregorian style, or in traditional polyphonic style, (Palestrina, for example), or some sort of contemporary equivalent.
We don’t really need more amateurish, folkish or quasi broadway-ish, music of the month fare, no matter how heartfelt. Your narrow categorization bespeaks a generation out of touch with authentic Catholic sacred tradition,(Now before you react, please do do your homework and investigate all that I will bring up here, as I was much the same as you, not making too many assumptions, but from your framing, there is not much else one could conclude), and this situation is not one of your making, but is a casualty of the liturgical revamping (revolution) post Vatican II, and has left in its wake a generation bereft of its legitimate heritage, and even an awareness that such exists, one that is aesthetically, musically and poetically rich and cogent and theologically on target, which is often so much the opposite concerning the musical menus of today’s Catholic Churches, in the main.
To the extent that the “contemporary” music of today seeks to be a “sacred” or “Christian” equivalent of some existing secular style, only adds to the desacralization of Holy Mass, and gives credence to the idea that liturgy is something we “do” and by extension, something we are constantly reinventing, as opposed to that which we “receive,” and that as our heritage, something handed down from the apostles, our bridge to the heavenlies, and so forth.
So let us sing together the refrain from the old Negro Spiritual (and absolutely not with “tongue in cheek”):
“Give me that Old Time religion,
Give me that Old Time religion,
Give me that Old Time religion,
It’s good enough for me.”
And let us not for one minute try to imagine “Old Time” means anything but “timeless,” and not “old,” which in our throwaway, shallow, inwardly focused, narcissistic, disconnected, self justifying, self affirming society is somewhat a dirty word.
talk about bombing results! :-D
Conservative traditional only–most of the new contemporary music is “touchy feely” music that encourages the listener to indulge in more personal “feelings” rather than a deeper spirituality that traditional music invokes.
count me in for traditional music.
If I wanted traditional Hymns I would attend a celebration of Lauds or Vespers. Too bad there is no category such as: Do you prefer the propers of Mass sung or do you prefer a hymn substitute?
[Singing to self:] Lumen ad revelationem gentium …
Amen. Alleluia.
Do you need any musicians at your parish, Father Pedersen? Any more congregants? Parking lot volunteers?
I watched a twelve year old today, and while fiddling with my music phone during a dull moment, I discovered this wonderful child likes Gregorian Chant (it was the Pange Lingua). He recognized it from Holy Thursday, which is pretty much the only time our parish does any chant. When the piece ended he whined, “Aww… it’s over!” He promptly settled down when the track changed to the Agnus Dei.
Now, he’s only twelve, and he has the additional challenge of autism, but he knows good music. Pray his mother takes him to the local Novus Ordo mass in Latin some time as I suggested.
Alright. I was brought up in a charismatic catholic environment and definitely love all the contemporary Praise and Worship stuff. Yes, I do love Gregorian and Polyphony music! A good praise and worship music “may” be added to the mass, (I put quote in it because it is not easy to fine such Praise and Worship songs that will fit into mass), but of course Gregorian should be the highest form of music worship. My problem is: it seems to me that people who wrote comment in this blog dislike Praise and Worship song and see it as a bad music, period. That frustrates me, because Praise and Worship song is a form of worship as well (outside of mass, for prayer meeting and alike). For me personally, it is more of two goods: Praise and Worship music and Gregorian. Of course the winner is Gregorian. But that doesn’t make Praise and Worship music bad.
I doubt if the Pange Lingua can count as Gregorian Chant. It is a merry tune, perhaps looked dwon on my monastic chanters just as On Eagles’ Wings would be today. By the way, at teh funeral of Luciano Pavarotti in Modena last year the musical highlight was a performance of On Eagles’s Wings!
Vatican II, how much chant do you listen to? Go, make haste to download the Salve Regina in plainchant. It is also a merry tune. So is a lot of chant. I frequently attend mass where chant is sung, and I frequently find it stirring. You might also try the “Ubi Caritas” or “Victimae Paschali Laudes” (aka the Easter Sequence).
You can listen to some of that here: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=120659525
I doubt the Church would specially designate the Pange Lingua for Holy Thursday and benediction if it was widely looked down upon. I tell you, On Eagle’s Wings will be mostly forgotten in a hundred years, but the Pange Lingua will remain the norm.
As a child I really liked “On Eagle’s Wings”–the one hundredth time, not so much. It’s also hard to sing, operatic, and fails to capture the full effect of the original psalm. But, I would take it over another repetition of “One Bread, One Body” any day.
In Christ,
I’m confused. I thought the Faith Factor site was supposed to be Catholic?
Is the link correct?
>I’m confused. I thought the Faith Factor site was supposed to be >Catholic?
>Is the link correct?
Yes, and the Catholic charge could probably not be proven in a court of law due to lack of evidence, all self-proclamations to the contrary.
I just went to sort of double check on reading your expression of confusion – and you are right to feel that, I would say — and the drivel I listened to in the first couple of minutes there — well, the problem with the “new media” is everyone is a broadcaster/journalist who owns a computer, potentially, anyway, and these are really people with opinions and not much erudition. (At all). This goes hand in hand with the Catholic charismatic movement, with some notabble exceptions, (might be more aptly tagged Catholic protestant-make-it-up-as-you-go-ism), and associated mostly with cradle Catholics who never really got taught their faith and feel deprived of the “experiential” faith some protestant sects “seen” to enjoy, never mind their lasting commitment (notoriously low – lots of church hopping – theology of the week shopping).
So this is the worst of both worlds. Catholics who never really got to know the true faith, and are envious of Protestants on many levels and seek to correct what they feel is a spiritual vacuum in the Catholic Church with a layer of Protestant emotionalism and faux Bible enrichment, usually a smattering of the latest making the TBN rounds, Ken Copeland, T.D Jakes, and the like. So not quite Catholic, (at least in the solid intellectually/philosophically based, theologically grounded Thomist or Augustinian type).
Also, a lot of these folks are trying to get a gig (not necessarily this group, but they fit the profile). This means they want a full time “ministry” that pays the bills. I have seen this a few times, and frankly, it is usually well intentioned, but the understanding of the subject matter (let’s say Biblical studies and/or theology) is woefully inadequate. But that is not an issue, because they have the fire, they have the spirit, and there IS a spiritual vacuum within the modern Church, though they are really adding fuel to the fire, as I have come to understand the situation.
This is why the movement of our dear pope is so on time and really the antidote.
Confusion. Yes, you have hit the nail on the head.
No numbers aremoving on the poll now except traditional music… how many listeners does this guy have… 27?
I selected Option 3 – I’d rather have the music of Mass than any music at Mass.
“Sing the Mass; not at it!”
Read some other things on the site… some of the comments on the discussion about music at Mass are definitely putting forward the traditionalist argument pretty strongly… the jist of them is that while P&W may be “good music”, it is simply not appropriate for Mass, and that we need to move away from the idea that we should be singing “music that people like” at Mass rather than the music that is part of the Mass. One commenter actually made a very strong argument in that direction and several others follwed up in agreement. I don’t think the discussion (or the poll) is going in the direction that the moderator was hoping for…
Thank you for bringing this to our attention Father. Sadly, 99% of the music at my parish here in Miami is contemporary (worship & preaise, charismatic, etc).
I do not think that vandalising somebody else’s poll, which is effectively what you people have done here, is a legitimate or Christian way to get your point across.
This kind of thing is why people don’t like you traditionalists.
Hey Jose Wokng: I hope I see you at St. Robert Bellarmine (3405 NW 27th Ave) at 8:00 a.m. this Sunday for the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven.
the results are that the traditional music has the 91% of the votes.
I have a personal anecdote to relate about chant and children. When I was cantoring many years ago, I chanted the Pange Lingua for the communion.
After Mass, a young boy, probably about 12, came up to me and asked where that beautiful song came from. I told him about the history of the Pange
Lingua and Gregorian Chant. When I explained how chant had fallen into disuse since the Council his response to me was “how could anyone not want
such beautiful music, they must be crazy.” Ex ore infantium! Tom
Well they have just been blitzed the stats now read:
Very contemporary praise & worship. 23 (5%)
More conservative, traditional Catholic hymns. 358 (91%)
I’d rather not have any music at Mass. 12 (3%)
It’s been so long since I went to mass that I don’t really care. 0 (0%)
Votes so far: 393
Days left to vote: 23
For all our claims of erudition, how many of us so called traditionalists actually know that there are two Pange Lingua chants, and that while I suspect I know which one everybody is talking about, it’s hard to tell?
Jase,
I don’t see how we are vandalizing a poll. I would actually encourage a ton of people from all over to vote. I’d truly be interested in where people stand. Maybe a Charismatic group will get wind of the poll and respond in kind. They have over 20 days. We’ve just voiced our opinion early.
RichR,
How are you vandalising the poll?
By making sure that as many trads know about it as possible.
Yes, a charismatic group could do the same. But they’re not, are they?
Hence, it’s stupidly skewed. And I have E-mailed the website telling them what’s going on here.
Jase: The poll is unscientific anyway. Before we got involved, it was a poll of that particular blog’s regular readers, and was skewed toward those who don’t like traditional music. Now it’s skewed the other way. I don’t see what the big deal is. It’s not as though they’re going to make some big decision on the basis of the votes.
If they didn’t want people to vote on it in any way they chose, they didn’t have to make it accessible to anyone who wants to vote. Or they could have put in big letters, “THIS POLL IS FOR REGULAR BLOG READERS ONLY”.
These questions leave me in an awkward position. My mother was for twenty-odd years a “folk choir” director, and many fond childhood memories are attached to “On Eagle’s Wings” and “City of God” and other hymns of that sort. On the other hand, I now see how banal they are compared to the vast treasure of sacred music that predates the 1970’s.
Hmm. I voted for traditional music, but I can’t help belting out Dan Schutte’s “Glory and Praise to our God” every bit as joyfully as “For All the Saints” or “Faith of our Fathers.”
Daniel,
Ad cenam Agnis providi, stolis salutis candidi, post transitum maris Rubri Christo canamus principi. And that is just the first verse of the Easter Vesper Hymn.
Terth: Thanks for the info. I’ve attended the 8:00 a.m. Mass at St. Robert Bellarmine and have had the plesure of meeting Fr. Fishwich. Are you aware of other Masses in the Extraordinary Form offered in the Miami area?
Jase says:
I dont see how vandalising somebody else’s poll, which is effectively what you people have done here, is a legitimate or Christian way to get your point across.
This kind of thing is why people don’t like you traditionalists.
WOW, now Jase is a true Christian, how can you other readers feel good about what you are doing with that poll. Each day this blog site is less and less Christian then the day before.It’s ok to like “old time religion” It’s also ok to like the NO Mass, but you clergymen who read this and or run this site, should preach about knowing what is right and wrong. If we all like the TLM great but there is no need to dismiss or vandalise anothers point of view.
Fr. Z will have a long line for virtual confessions on Saturday or do those who have done the vandalising think they are without sin. I will again have hope for the New Liturgial Movement if there is true repentance from you other bloggers who have skewed that poll.
Simeon: I have never heard of another “Pange Lingua” but the wiki article mentions that another chant shares the opening words. The wiki article also has an amateur recording of the chant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pange_lingua
In any case, if you find a recording of it somewhere online, let me know!
Daniel,
Ad cenam Agnis providi, stolis salutis candidi, post transitum maris Rubri Christo canamus principi. And that is just the first verse of the Easter Vesper Hymn.
Sure, we would sung that in schola as an anthem during Easter. But what we sang at the Anglican Use church at the Vigil was, of course, “At the Lamb’s high feast we sing.” Great example of a real traditional hymn.
Ad cenam *agni*
Ad cenam Agni
Good catch. You made me look up the hymn modern and ancient. It turns out that we sang the “old” tune for “Ad regias Agni dapes.” But somehow I think that we sang the restored text … with all nouns correctly declined. ;-)
I voted 2. Though I agree with Aristotle’s reasons for opting for 3, I doubt very much that his subtle reasoning has been factored into this poll. 2 just seems to be a catch-all category for everything written before the 1960’s, which includes Gregorian Chant. There is, of course, the danger that someone will read this and take it as a show of support for singing the saccharine English hymns of the St. Gregory Hymnal, but it’s a chance I’ll have to take.
Jase,
How can it be ‘vandalism’ to encourage people:
1. to visit someone’s blog;
and 2. to participate in a poll open to all visitors?
Both 1. an 2. are meritorious acts. How can their conjunction be vandalous?
Pange Lingua was always a very popular Catholic hymn; its words date from the 13th century — rather late.
Veni Creator Spiritus is another beloved hymn, but I never thought of it as Gregorian chant.
I loved both hymns when I was 12, but Gregorian chant never particularly grabbed me.
The usual Gregorian chant is very much an acquired taste. I doubt if it evem made much of an impact on the majority of Catholics. Its rhythm is a matter of speculative reconstruction and scholarly controversy.
But the Pange Lingua IS Gregorian chant. Gregorian chant is a style of music. Just as there is neo-classical, there is newer Gregorian chant. Pange Lingua is specifically in chant mode iii. Veni Creator Spiritus is also chant. I think you must have some strange idea of what chant actually is. Isn’t that a bit close-minded?
As for Catholics not being affected, well, I have met few people who, once they hear it, do not like good chant. Many people get the wrong impression because professional choirs often make a mess of it.
In any case, the whole point of mentioning children liking it is to say that chant is certainly not “an acquired taste” as you put it.
Pange Lingua was always a very popular Catholic hymn; its words date from the 13th century
The propers for the liturgy (Divine Office and Mass) of the Feast of Corpus Christi were written by St. Thomas Aquinas. The words have been set to many familiar and well-loved hymns (Tantum Ergo [which is the last part of Pange Lingua], Pange Lingua, Panis Angelicus, O Salutaris Hostia [which is the last part of Verbum Supernum], Verbum Supernum, Lauda Sion Salvatorem) as well as chant.
Sancte Thoma, ora pro nobis!
Update on the Music Poll in Miami
Well, the score is a crushing 498 for “traditional music” but the blog host seems to have taken it badly. Instead of responding to any of the thoughtful posts including those with personal experiences by people who have been “charismatic”…
He responded with a new post:
Wednesday, April 9, 2008
Do you KNOW Him?
Do you know Him? Think before you answer this question. I’m not asking if you know of Him. I’m not asking if you are a self-proclaimed expert on all things about Him. I’m not asking if you are a biblical scholar, a theologian, a liturgist, or an expert on sacred music. All of these things are important. But I am asking if you KNOW Him? Do you have a personal relationship with the Lord? A relationship with your Heavenly Father. A CURRENT relationship with the King above all kings. Is the Lord present in your life right now or is He a historical figure that you study?
Why am I bringing this up? Our web poll about music in the liturgy has drawn much attention from those that believe gregorian chant and sacred hymns is the only music acceptable as part of the mass. They may very well be correct. However, many of the responses discuss the subject as if we were discussing algebra or chemistry. Giving a litany of facts and history as though they are trying to win an argument.
Let me be clear. Radio Peace and The Faith Factor Radio Show exist solely to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the hopes of bringing our listeners to a relationship with our God. We do have programs on Radio Peace that educate us on the Catechism, the Encyclicals, the Sacred Scriptures, etc., etc., etc. This important. But it is only part of what we do. We want you to know Him. To really know Him so that you can love Him. When you know Him and you love Him we want to provide a platform for you to share your faith walk towards Him with others that share in the same knowing and loving.
Like a wise young man I know always says…”Jesus loves you.” If you want to know why, we can talk about it. If you don’t care, that’s OK. He’ll be waiting patiently until you are ready.
_________
Now I am not sure what the point of it all was….? And I am trying to remember Father Z’s Rules.. but, the blog owner is apparently engaging in some false dichotomies such as Reason v. Faith and traditional catholic v. actual relationship with God. I tried to be restrained in my response…. Was I over the top?
Melody, the point surely is that citing Pange Lingua’s popularity to prove
that Gregorian Chant is not an acquired taste is rather counter-productive.
All Catholics love those tuneful hymns, but even benedictine monks have been known to complain about the doubtful melodic qualities of the bulk of plainchant.
When people enthuse about chant I am impressed by their fine musical taste, but then when I discover that they are just talking about the Latin hymns I loved and memorized as a child, I am somewhat less overawed.
Does “O Salutaris Hostia” count as chant too?
Surely the rum-ti-tum version of Tantum Ergo (the one not in mode iii or the phrygian mode) does not count as chant?
At what point to late and tuneful setting of Latin texts cease to count as chang?
Spirit of VaticanII
To be Gregorian Chant, a piece of music has to comply with certain rules. The most iportant is that the piece is written in one of the 8 Modes of Gregorian Chant.
The mode defines the selection of notes, or musical scale, from which the piece is composed. In most of the music that we hear in modern times, there are just two modes; the major and the minor. The major is just one of the Gregorian modes. The minor is not. Just as music written in the major key is distinguishable from music written in the minor key, so is music written in each of the modes.
Other points about Gregorian Chant. All Gregorian Chant is written for the human voice so the range of notes (the compass) is limited to what a human voice can comfortably sing. Usually it is limited to a scale of 8 notes.
There is no harmony in Gregorian Chant. Everybody sings the same note. In this respect the sound is pure.
There are also rules about which note is the recital note (ie the prevailing note which is most frequently used in the peice).
The piece will always end on what is called the final note, which is pre-defined for each mode.
These rules, and others define whether a piece of music is Gregorian Chant or not.
Gregorian Chant has other features. For example, certain sequences of notes are common, and these make it easily recognisable.