Hating the Pope

The other day the Pope wrote this:

At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate. And should someone dare to approach them – in this case the Pope – he too loses any right to tolerance; he too can be treated hatefully, without misgiving or restraint.

 

An agenda is being driven right now: silence the Catholic Church – drive the Church from the public square.

The useful idiots in the media and dissenting Catholics in diocesan and parish organizations who help this agenda ease us into tolerance toward a future persecution of the Church.

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66 Responses to Hating the Pope

  1. Baronius says:

    Time to start stockpiling.

  2. RichR says:

    FATHER KENNETH BAKER, Editor of The Homiletic and Pastoral Review, stated in his June 1983 editorial that:

    A major trend in this country is towards an American Church, that is a Church separate and independent from Rome. The locus of this trend is not in the laity, but in the Church leaders: some bishops, priests, nuns, intellectuals, diocesan experts. Another way of saying this is that we are becoming more Protestant all the time. By that I mean the rejection of a hierarchical Church founded by Jesus Christ, primacy of the subjective conscience, and absolutizing Scripture to the neglect of Tradition.

  3. Kevin says:

    Please keep the Holy Father, and all bishops, priests, religious, and seminarians in your prayers.

  4. shadrach says:

    Persecution that will really affect all of us will occur in our lifetime. We will, if we remain true in charity, be martyrs, each in our own way, each in our own time. Pray for our Holy Father. Pray for the Church.

  5. Rancher says:

    There are those who have said that for the Church to survive the attacks of the evil one we will need to again have martyrs for the Faith. It may be that martyrs will not have to give their physical lives…but some of us, however, may find ourselves in jail for resisting (through failure to pay all of our federal income taxes) government funding of abortion, embryonic stem cell research etc. The attacks on the Church have intensified since January 20th. I think the leftists who now rule this nation fear the Church and will do all they can to destroy it. I am not one who sees conspiracies everywhere but it is no secret that leftists in this country are aligned with leftists all over the world. So, it is not all that difficult for them to have their foreign media counterparts take shots at the Church and the Pope just like the socialist media is doing stateside.

    From the secular perspective we may well be headed for another revolution in this country. It will be bitter and bloody. I think the left knows that a destroyed Church will make a more general secular revolution difficult if not impossible. Why is the Church viewed the way it is by the enemy? Because it is the only institution capable of moral resistance. We urge on Bishops like Morlino, and rightfully so. But every time BPs like him (bless them!) take a firm stand in opposition to immorality it increases the efforts to destroy the Church. We have many battles ahead of us. St. Michale pray for us.

  6. Jason says:

    Here is an excerpt from a letter written by St. Luigi Orione in the early 1900s. He refers to “moral catacombs which are being prepared for the Mother Church of Rome and the Pope.” I don’t know if this reference would be considered a prophecy, but it is certainly prophetic:

    My sons and friends in the Lord: let us love the Holy Church, the Pope, and her bishops with all our heart. Since we are living in this age, in times fraught with new dangers, let us never, never, never cease giving the world resplendent examples of ardent love, humility, full obedience, and charity toward the Church and the Pope. Let us keep in mind the august poverty to which the Apostolic See has been reduced and the moral catacombs which are being prepared for the Mother Church of Rome and the Pope. Let us consider ourselves greatly honored, if it is ever given to us to work or suffer for the cause of the Church and the Pope: this is the cause of God. Let us love the Church with all our intellect, adopting as our own all her doctrines and those of her visible Leader, the Roman Pontiff. Accede to all her wishes and those of our beloved Pope. Let us love her with all our heart as a good son loves his mother. Such a Mother is the Church! Let us love as a good son loves his father. Such a Father is the Pope!

  7. Rancher says:

    That would be St. Michael

  8. Tony C says:

    The attacks will continue until the “moneychangers” are driven from the
    temple!

  9. Mitchell NY says:

    Some say it is the Bishops that are leading us away from Rome and into an “American Church”. How do you remain obedient and faithful to them and to our Beloved Pope and Rome? It is scandalous that Bishops and Priests(some not all, but an ever increasing number) are making lay people choose between them. It is coming to a point where if you are on the side of the Pope and the Church you are against the Bishops. They are tearing away at the Papacy and Rome in order to have what? An American Church whose HQ is in NY, Los Angeles, Miami, or maybe Hollywood? Then they can even drop one “l” and legitamize their claim (Holy-Wood). I believe what someone says that it is not what the laity that wants this, but the hot shots running the show. It is heartbreaking.

  10. Chris says:

    Father, while I understand your frustration, I hope you are wrong.

    I, for one, do not see all this news and feel compelled to tolerance of the persecution. I fell invigorated to fight for the true Church and the traditional Mass and Faith.

    And, clearly, the fight is no longer with Jews or Protestants or Pagans. The fight it will the Catholics in name only who tear down Mother Church from within.

    The battle lines are being drawn. And the liberals in the Church are exposing themselves. In fact, with all the comments this week on Communion in the hand, I believe they’ve exposed themselves in a small way right here on this blog.

    It’s time to pick a side. I’m choosing the authentic Magisterium, the current Holy Father and the Tradional Latin Mass — the one thing that will save this Church.

    Either you’re with tradition or you’re against the Church. It’s time to choose sides.

  11. ED says:

    Oh No the Y2K panic crowd is back !!! Be brave get martyred and go straight to Heaven…..Spend your time saving souls from HELL not stock piling Pork-N-Beans….Don’t be cowardly like the rest!!!

  12. ED says:

    Throughout history Vatican City was never touched during all wars because there were Catholics in their countries that would turn against their rulers if the attacked the Vatican. Even Hitler and Mussolini knew this. But that has changed Catholics have betrayed JESUS in their deeds and the majority cant be counted on to come to aid the church. So this time you will see the Pope either murdered or forced to flee the Vatican and the forces of evil will destroy Vatican City thinking they are eliminating the church finally, but then GOD will show why the gates of Hell will never completely overcome the Faith.

  13. Ken says:

    Matthew 5:11 comes immediately to mind. The Holy Father is leading by example, showing what it means to be the salt of the earth. The Holy Spirit watches over us, though, and you can be sure we were given the right Pontiff at exactly the right time.

  14. Peg says:

    The solution is simple…but not easy. The Holy Father must consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary together with all the bishops of the world. I wonder how many bishops would co-operate though and if the curia would undermine it the way they did the Pius X bishops fiasco.

  15. shadrach says:

    Newspapers are capitalist ventures, sustained by advertisement; they employ people who accept the tenets of the capitalist system; the writers who attack His Holiness would not have a forum in which to do their attacking if they didn’t agree with the capitalist consensus. Socialists? Leftists? Despite traditional reflex actions and concerns, especially here in the US. Socialism has gone the way of Jacobitism and the dinosaurs. It is dead. What is left of socialism is Materialism. Capitalism has won, and will be still around after all the bail-outs and temporary government nationalisations, which are just a fine tuning of the capitalist system. The pope’s opponents are liberals, capitalism is ushering liberalism to victory. The pope and the church are the only things that treasure life, that treasure souls, that will fight to prevent humanity from being reduced into mere markets, marketing demographics and consumers. In our day and age capitalism and liberalism has triumphed. Capitalism is an expression of our original sin. Liberalism is the attractive face of the devil.

  16. “Throughout history Vatican City was never touched during all wars because there were Catholics in their countries that would turn against their rulers if the attacked the Vatican”

    Not true; this has happened no less than four times to my memory. Napeleon I’s General even imprisoned Pius VI, the Pope later died in captivity.

  17. Chris said: The battle lines are being drawn. And the liberals in the Church are exposing themselves. In fact, with all the comments this week on Communion in the hand, I believe they’ve exposed themselves in a small way right here on this blog.

    It’s time to pick a side. I’m choosing the authentic Magisterium, the current Holy Father and the Tradional Latin Mass—the one thing that will save this Church.

    ***********

    Does it mean, that because I prefer Communion in the hand and the Ordinary Form of the Mass, I am now an enemy of the Magisterium?

    Sorry, but that is a very shortsighted attitude… and judgemental too…

  18. Chris says:

    Standing maryanna:

    I reiterate what I said: I’m choosing the authentic Magisterium, the current Holy Father and the Tradional Latin Mass—the one thing that will save this Church.

    Yes, I believe Communion in the hand is tearing down the Faith. Yes, I believe the novus ordo, though valid, said the way 99% of them are said is tearing down the Church and Faith.

    It is up to you to decide whether you are aiding or hurting the Magisterium. I cannot and will not judge you.

  19. Good job of linking these things Fr. Z. Make ‘em visible.

  20. mr. crouchback says:

    Look, this is the important thing. Whether or not Catholics will be driven into the catacombs in the next decade or the next century, they’re is certainly a trend of growing intolerance and outright discrimination against the Faith. Relatedly, the culture has become more polarized; people are taking their respective sides.

    All of which is to say, that I think sentiments expressed by Chris is the wrong way to approach these disturbing attacks against the Holy Father. I attend the TLM, obviously receive the Blessed Sacrament on the tongue, and have misgivings about how the Novus Ordo is commonly celebrated. Nevertheless, time, education (such as thru websites like Fr. Z’s), and the polarization already occurring in our culture will resolve most of issues.

    Do we Traditionalist Catholics really think that so-called neo-conservative Catholics are truly the problem? We’ve got bigger fish to fry. Weigel et al. annoy me at times, but ultimately, when the persecutions truly come, they’ll be with us in the catacombs.

  21. Joe says:

    The ugliness grows. Whether it is in the homosexualist movement, the abortionists or even the unwitting or willing accomplices of the culture of death within the Catholic Church, the ugliness grows.

    I, for one, don’t feel like going to the catacombs. Queen Isabella and King Jan Sobieski fought – and won. We can too.

  22. shadrach says:

    Mr Crouchback (or may I call you Guy?),

    I agree with you on the question of inter-Catholic bickering, but I’d personally be more cautious defining the polarization of culture. I think that many political and broadcast interests, especially in the US promote the ‘culture war’ to boost ratings or garner profits, and as a result Catholics risk being played by right-wing demagogues and their agenda, in the same way that self-described ‘liberal’ Catholics are played by the Liberals. In Truth every agenda that isn’t consonant with Paul’s ‘Faith, hope and charity’ and the witness that the sacramental life of the Church gives is window-dressing at best and, most likely, idolatry. Much of what looks like secular polarization, is but a prelude to Herod and Pilate, the plastic right and plastic left, becoming friends… they want your money and don’t care for souls. There are no sides. There is only Truth. Let everyone know us by our fruits, by our cheerful service of the Lord and his Church. Our faith, hope and charity, believe me, will convert many who can be drawn seeing the Church to realize how paltry the staged polarisation of culture is. Benedict is such a wonderful witness to the Truth.

  23. Luigi says:

    Chris –

    I have a sense for what you’re trying to say, but if I may advocate for standing maryanna’s point:

    You do realize, of course, that not everyone who frequents the TLM while receiving the Eucharist on the tongue has necessarily chosen rightly; or to use your words, is “aiding the Magisterium.” (Which to be honest I am not real sure what that’s supposed to mean.)

    Nor has every individual who frequents the OF and receives Communion in the hand necessarily chosen wrongly; or is “hurting the Magisterium.”

    There are members of both groups who say “Lord, Lord” that will not enter the Kingdom, just as there are members of both who will.

  24. GordonBOPS says:

    I\’m glad the Pope is at least helping to give the Faithful and opportunity to give a reason for our hope. Go ahead, ask me what I think of the Pope\’s comments, I\’ll give you the Catholic vision of humanity being truly human (and in this case, not just an object for use —).

  25. Barb says:

    Is the “measuring of the sanctuary with the reed that is like to a rod” really here? I am inclined
    to think so. We live in interesting times indeed.

    Fiat Voluntas Tua

  26. AuroraChristina says:

    “And they sat and watched him.” – Matthew 27:36 (Douay-Rheims)

    Alright, hand-wringing friends and brethren. So what do we do about it? Could I suggest a simple yet powerful start: that we each of us resolve to make some personal sacrifice in reparation for the destructive influences within the Church?

  27. RBrown says:

    Cf. The Fourth Gospel:

    John 15:18-21

    18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, `A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me.

  28. Tradman says:

    We can tell how holy a Pope is by how much he is hated by the world. I think what we have on our hands is a very holy Pope. May God grant him many years, or at least a few more.

  29. mr. crouchback says:

    shadrach:

    When I referred to polarization within the culture, I didn’t mean to suggest that the sides where the GOP and the Democratic Party (or their various proxies). I’m fairly young, but I’m experienced enough to realize that our hope is in vain if it depends upon the Republican National Committee. Many American “conservatives” are loathe to admit it, but unrestrained free market capitalism is one of the most anti-traditionalist & anti-conservative forces in modernity. But that’s another debate.

    What I was trying to get at was my perception that people (especially young people) are taking sides on the more fundamental divide between tradition/selflessness/objective truth versus endless pursuit of the novel/selfishness/relativism. I’m not so deluded as to think that the former has more adherents than the latter. The temptations of 21st Century Western Civilization are Legion.

  30. Steve K. says:

    Aurora – I suggest: say a daily rosary for the Holy Father.

  31. AuroraChristina says:

    Steve K.,

    Nice suggestion. Who’s in?

  32. shadrach says:

    Mr Crouchback,

    Apologies for misinterpreting you. We’re kindred spirits. Oremus pro invicem,

  33. Jane says:

    How accurate the pope’s words are

  34. Becky says:

    I’m with Steve and Aurora. We need to offer a daily rosary for the Pope and pray for all of our priests. In fact, Opus Angelorum puts out a great prayer booklet with prayers for priests. We should always be praying for our dear priests, especially for those who have gone astray….

  35. I have sensed dark clouds gathering more and more in the 4 years since my return to the Church. I used to think it was all in my rather dramatic imagination, but I don’t think that any more. The changed political atmosphere has heightened the sense, of course. It can’t be shaken or ignored. Lately, I’ve been feeling very isolated, even from people close to me, even from people within the Church.

    Thank God that I have some wonderful communities of solid, trustworthy Catholics to find refuge with. People who don’t think I sound crazy or idiotic when I talk like this! Otherwise I don’t know what I would do.

    Dark times are upon us. But they will also be times of heroism, times that will bring out the best in us, by the grace of God.

    And thank God for Pope Benedict! As I very often say, we could not wish or hope for a better Pope than him today! May God grant him continued good health and long life!

  36. Victoria says:

    The words of some songs from my misbegotten youth come to mind.

    The times they are a changin’

    Which side are you on boys, which side are you on?

    There’s a battle outside and it’s ragin’

  37. Dom Elias Carr says:

    In these unpleasant times, I suggest that a Catholic will find much consolation and strength in Rene Girard’s profound and Christian analysis of scapegoating. The Holy Father refers precisely to this human tendency and practice. Learn about how Christ reveals and puts an end to the innocence of scapegoating and calls us to live without scapegoating anyone or any group.

    I suggest starting with I See Satan Fall Like Lightning. Girard, who is a Catholic, does not claim to be a theologian; rather he has created an “evangelical anthropological”. His insights have much to say that can enlighten and strengthen us and finally give us a way to deconstruct the principalities and powers of this world.

  38. Mike says:

    Nancy Pelosi speaking today at St.Anthony’s Catholic Church in San Fransico to legal and illegal immigrants. Go to Worldnet Daily website to get the video link or Fox news website.

  39. mr crouchback said: Do we Traditionalist Catholics really think that so-called neo-conservative Catholics are truly the problem?

    **********

    This is confusing to me… What are the differences between traditionalist and neo-conservative Catholics?

    Thanks…

  40. Chris says:

    Luigi: You do realize, of course, that not everyone who frequents the TLM while receiving the Eucharist on the tongue has necessarily chosen rightly; or to use your words, is “aiding the Magisterium.” (Which to be honest I am not real sure what that’s supposed to mean.)

    No, I’m sorry, I don’t realize that. Choosing the TLM and Holy Communion on the tongue while kneeling is ALWAYS choosing rightly and eaids the Magisterium each and every time.

  41. jacques says:

    “One will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops…” (Akita)
    Here is the prophecy’s fulfillment.

  42. teresa says:

    Chris:

    I side with you, firmly. And I am ready to fight, like a soldier, for our real faith, for the Mother Church.

    We have to unite ourselves and show the enemies of the Mother Church and our Holy Father, that we are there and aren’t to be shaken.

    We will oppose the hatred and assails of the secular society through the firm demonstration of our faith. Yes, we will pray more, and pray together, we will demonstrate our faith openly, in a peaceful but clear way. We will write articles to defend our faith. And we will build a global network of all conservative Catholics, in order to act uno sono.

    WE SHALL OVERCOME!

    CHRISTUS VINCIT!

  43. Dave says:

    standing maryanna: See this article for one explanation of the difference:
    http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SP_Ripperger.html

  44. Andrew, UK and sometimes Canada says:

    “Cry ‘God for Benedict! Rome and St Peter!'”
    -cf: Henry V, Act III, Scene i

  45. Liz says:

    The line in the sand has been drawn – and it is orthodox Catholics vs. Cafeteria Catholics. I believe Benedict said that he would prefer a smaller, yet truer Church than a Church of lukewarm Catholics. The “war” will be internal – within the Church – and it has already started. Yes, it is a good thing that we have Benedict leading us – already he is replacing American Bishops and taking those good Bishops to Rome with him. We need more men like Chaput, the Bishop of Scranton and the Bishop of Madison – they will lead our people in our church. Lord have mercy on us and our priests.

  46. I am not Spartacus says:

    Yes, I believe Communion in the hand is tearing down the Faith. Yes, I believe the novus ordo, though valid, said the way 99% of them are said is tearing down the Church and Faith.

    Agreed.

    FWIW, we just had our last (until maybe next Fall/Winter) EF Missa Cantata at St. Christopher’s Church in Hobe Sound, Florida. (Going back to the knuckle-headed celebrations of our local Normative Mass will be a huge penance)

    When it was time for Communion, two kneelers were brought out and placed in front of the Sanctuary so we could receive Communion on the tongue, kneeling.

    I saw several individuals stand beside the kneelers and receive Communion in the hand.

    The ICEL and Communion in the hand has done immeasurable damage.

  47. Peter says:

    The attack on the Pope and the Church took a decidedly nasty turn on Australina national television this evening. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation program ‘Q&A’, an amphitheatre ‘current affairs and opinion’ format, normally with politicians as the panel. It is supposedly ‘an experiment in democracy’. Tonight it was an example of bigotted mob rule.

    Fr Kennedy of St Mary’s Brisbane fame was one of the ‘celebrity’ panel.

    The Brazil case was gone over, and over. The Holy Father’s comments about AIDS were twisted and parrodied. Fr Kennedy had an enormous amount of unfettered time advocating women priests, contraception, etc etc (It was the first time I’ve heard him speak and he struck me as an extremely proud individual). The ‘audience’ was like a cage of rabid dogs.

    The web ‘message board’ after the program was like a verbal pogrom.

    Disturbing, extremely disturbing.

  48. Corleone says:

    While I absolutely agree with the sentiment, I don’t think the term “idiots in the media” is very charitable or productive, especially considering the Lenten season. It’s just giving fodder to anyone who wants to look for it.

  49. Luigi says:

    Chris: “Choosing the TLM and Holy Communion on the tongue while kneeling is ALWAYS choosing rightly and eaids the Magisterium each and every time.”

    I wouldn’t hesititate to say that such person has chosen rightly, as in the better way, as it concerns the Sacred Liturgy and Holy Communion. I would like to see everyone choose this way. That, however, is not the context in which you offered it and its not the subject of this discussion.

    I too believe that the battle lines are being drawn ever more clearly. This climate of persecution has an apocalyptic edge to it that I personally don’t think is entirely bad.

    It is time to choose alright, but your notion that the choice as it exists for individual Catholics in today’s environment amounts to a choice between the TLM / Novus Ordo,and Communion on tongue / Communion in hand, is way too simplistic. The good guys and bad guys aren’t necessarily lining up according to such a neat little model.

    There are some very holy people who worship at the OF and take Communion in the hand who are squarely positioned on the right side of the battle line such as it exists today.

  50. Chris says:

    Luigi: “is time to choose alright, but your notion that the choice as it exists for individual Catholics in today’s environment amounts to a choice between the TLM / Novus Ordo,and Communion on tongue / Communion in hand, is way too simplistic. The good guys and bad guys aren’t necessarily lining up according to such a neat little model.”

    Says who? Show me a TLM parish that has the overwhelming number (if any) of it’s parishioners contracepting — then show me a novus ordo only parish where any more than 10 percent of its parishioners fully accept all the children that God gives them (no artificial or natural birth control [NFP]).

    Now tell me it’s a coincidence. Or if it’s a coincidence that they don’t believe in mass numbers in the true divinity of Christ, the real precense in the Eucharist, the necessity of baptism, etc. Right — it’s all just a coincidence and it’s can’t possibly be the Mass, the Communion in the hand, etc.

    It’s time to call a spade a spade and I’m sick of tip toeing around this subject while the Church crumbles and the Holy Father is attacked by so-called progressive Catholics.

    So go ahead and call all this hyperbole. Whatever. I’m done fighting on this blog. I don’t want to be banned by the good father so I’m done.

  51. Corleone says:

    Chris said – And, clearly, the fight is no longer with Jews or Protestants or Pagans. The fight it will the Catholics in name only who tear down Mother Church from within.

    the “fight” as you put it is with anyone seeking to do evil, as it has always been. Let’s put this into perspective; do you think St Paul wrote his letters and epistles because he was bored? There were ALWAYS dissenters within the church, and there will always be. The numbers of heresies in the early church, as well as those which turned into sects are innumerable. And rest assured, you will find good AND bad people from among the Jews, Protestants, Pagans, and I will add secular atheists and Mohammedans as well. But at large, these are groups which are squarely against the Catholic church (all you have to do is peruse youtube or beliefnet to see this).

    So, rather than playing the errant “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” game, we should remember that the truth is just that. And anyone seeking to corrupt or destroy it from the inside, or from the outside is indeed “fighting” against it.

  52. Fr. A says:

    Picking up on what Chris wrote, I recall that Saint Bernadette once said the only thing she feared was “bad Catholics.” I think I know what she meant.

  53. irishgirl says:

    I echo Andrew’s ‘battle cry’!

    My daily Rosary is ‘always’ offered for the Holy Father.

    And I echo Joe’s comment, too-if Queen Isabella and King John Sobieski could fight for the Faith, then so should we!

  54. eric says:

    Chric you’re more right than wrong,never stop ‘fighting’. Sorry Father Z.

  55. mwa says:

    “There has been opposed to the Catholic Church from its foundation a spirit quite different from mere reaction against what is strong or organized. It is a special personal hatred of the Faith. This spirit invariably appears in every movement of schism or even criticism. The moment (and wherever) the Church is fighting, that malign spirit appears. It had appeared on Calvary; it appears throughout the succeeding centuries….” – Hilaire Belloc, How the Reformation Happened

  56. Luigi says:

    I will second the idea that you’re more right than wrong, Chris, but when you think you’ve got things so figured out that you’re certain 9 out of 10 people at a Novus Ordo parish are off the farm, it’s a sure sign your horse is getting too damn high. You’re doing the cause that I am pretty certain we both promote no favors from up there.

    This particular topic isn’t about the relative merits of the TLM vs the OF. If it were we’d be on the same page. Pointing to it here is an over simplification of what is taking place in the Church today in the context of what it means to chose for or against Christ and His Church. That’s my point.

    Of course the way we receive Communion and the state of the Novus Ordo are major factors in where people are and how they are formed, but you’re treading on thin ice when you think you know the heart of people who favor one or the other.

  57. Chris says:

    Luigi: “Of course the way we receive Communion and the state of the Novus Ordo are major factors in where people are and how they are formed, but you’re treading on thin ice when you think you know the heart of people who favor one or the other.”

    Again, I disagree.

    Notice that I didn’t say 100 percent of those at a novus ordo, receiving on the hand are contracepting, rejecting the divinity of Jesus, rejecting the necessity of baptism and, through all of this, hating the Pope and his mission — the topic of this thread. I said 90 percent are.

    And major polls, my own vast experiences and common sense back up my claim.

    Do I think there is a small remnant of orthodox who attend the novus ordo and receive in their hand that reject contraception, both artificial and a bastardized form of NFP? Sure. But if you tell me it’s over 10 percent, I’m sorry, but I think you’d be dilusional.

    All I know is, before the early 40s, things were going very well for Catholics, American Catholics in particular. Then start building hideous church in the 50s, destroy the Mass in the 60s and finish it off in 1970, then throw the baby away with the bathwater in the ’83 code and you have the aftermath of the timebomb today.

    So you can continue to argue on the margins which is what you’re basically doing. But my point on the overwhelming majority remains true — as does the need for full restoration of the traditional Mass and Theology.

  58. Bryan says:

    There’s a prayer for priests you can insert into the rosary after the Fatima prayer after each decade to drive the point home:

    “God our Father, please send us holy priests. All for the Sacred and Eucharistic Heart of Jesus, all for the sorrowful and immaculate heart of Mary, all in union with St. Joseph.”

    A prayer within the rosary for the Blessed Mother to pray for her sons that serve His Church is not wasted time or breath.

  59. Luigi says:

    Chris – How many people posted on the Communion thread by saying they were taught to receive in the hand and did so for years until [fill in the blank]? If you’ve been blessed with a lifetime of solid formation that led to good choices every step of the way, consider yourself a blessed rarity in this day and age.

    I don’t know how old you are; your last post seems to imply that your formative years took place before the Council. Either way, the fact is the state of catechesis has been horrendous in the last four decades. Many if not most Catholics today know only the OF, and poorly celebrated at that. The idea of it being time to choose is always true in reality, but choice also implies “informed.”

    Current events in which liberals, some of whom have been trusted as authentic representatives of the faith and have heretofor managed to hoodwink others into believing they are among the most caring of all people, are spewing pure hatred, will serve to move people of good will who are among the poorly catechized to avail themselves of the true faith. Informed choices will follow.

    I’m more inclined to spend my time thinking about how to contribute to the work of informing the uninformed than trying to calculate what percentage of the flock has already chosen against the Church based on externals. The latter serves no purpose, and it’s not our place to do so anyway.

  60. Phil Steinacker (bleusmon@yahoo.com) says:

    Chris: “Says who? Show me a TLM parish that has the overwhelming number (if any) of it’s parishioners contracepting—then show me a novus ordo only parish where any more than 10 percent of its parishioners fully accept all the children that God gives them (no artificial or natural birth control [NFP]).”

    Chris, I understand the passion behind your position and your impatience. However, I think Luigi is correct when he says:

    “It is time to choose alright, but your notion that the choice as it exists for individual Catholics in today’s environment amounts to a choice between the TLM / Novus Ordo,and Communion on tongue / Communion in hand, is way too simplistic. The good guys and bad guys aren’t necessarily lining up according to such a neat little model.

    “There are some very holy people who worship at the OF and take Communion in the hand who are squarely positioned on the right side of the battle line such as it exists today.”

    Your comment above seems to suggest there was little sinning in these areas by faithful Catholics before Vatican II, and that the types of sin you mention began to significantly happen only with VII. Another way of saying it is that you cannot truly know who is sinning in what way according to the Mass they attend. Certainly, the liberals are forthcoming about their attitudes, so I agree it’s a reasonable conjecture to suggest that such attitudes and sin are predominant there since they by and large confirm it by their open defiance of Church teaching.

    However, no one attending the TLM is going to reveal to you the nature of their sins in the same manner. While I again agree with the likelihoods that those specific sins are likely to be sharply reduced by comparison, it remains speculative as to whether all TLM attendees are as completely free of this kind of sin as you believe. I say this not to cast aspersions on them by suggesting this; I’m just saying sin of this typo existed before VII, and that the nature of private Confessions means you can’t – and shouldn’t – judge anyone in this manner and therefore on that basis (it feels weird to use the word “judge” – I feel like a liberal!).

    Keep in mind the Lord often works incrementally in many of us and not by leveling a purist “take it or leave it – RIGHT NOW!” ultimatum that many fundamentalists (including some of the Catholic variety) levy on those who may not entirely toe the line of Church teaching at a given time in their lives. Yet, they may well be works in progress in dealing with “coming home” to Church teaching on the sin in question. Do you want to assume responsibility for pushing them further away from the Church when unknown to you the Holy Spirit has been working within them to bring them to Him in His own way?

    I’ll explain.

    Evidently the Lord felt there was no time to waste in executing His plan so He knocked Saul off his horse to get his attention. He made it clear it was now time to set about the work that morphed into his becoming Saint Paul. Well, I guess I’m no Saint Paul, and in some ways it’s a relief He doesn’t expect me to lose my head over Him – leastways, not yet!

    By this I mean He’s slowly brought me along through several stages of applying to my life certain teachings with which I struggled to accept even after I returned to the Church (I was in the wilderness for 31 years). These are teachings that faithful Catholics (including my friends) had been routinely living. But for me each new phase or plateau in my coming closer to Him and His way by living these teachings I once ignored became the lift-off point for the next challenge before me.

    If anyone had demanded I just accept it and submit – notwithstanding that I agree that this is what I was required to do – I would likely have refused and bolted because I wasn’t ready to let go of my own self-important pride and my attachment to having things my own way. The Lord took His time with me, and brought me to His way one step at a time. Should I have just done it straight up? Certainly, but my soul would have been lost to Him if someone had demanded I try. He knew what it would take to get past my attitudes. He knew I could be made ready, and He worked within and around me to bring me there.

    I am not the author of ANY of my advances into living Church teaching; it was the grace, power, and the initiative of the Holy Spirit in each case that opened a door and tapped – and occasionally shoved – me on the shoulder (and elsewhere) to go through it. Once I actually resisted by – believe it or not – actually saying I didn’t want to do what He placed in front of me with clear words, “This is for you.” He immediately responded in no uncertain terms: “When the Lord your God does something for you, YOU DO NOT SAY NO.” I kid you not.

    That one incident in my life (and others dynamically similar, if not exactly like it) showed me how much He loves me and how patient he has been with me. More importantly, I learned that when He shows me the time is “right now” He means do it – right now. True, up to those moments I was not in the state of grace He desired for me, but He tolerated me patiently while He brought me to the point when I was ready. He decided – I did not (except to assent).

    Understand, I don’t recommend this approach to anyone and since I’ve “gotten it” I am very serious about my responsibilities & obligations as a Catholic – although I continue developing a greater depth of understanding of my Catholic Faith.. I’d say more but it gets very personal, and besides, I’ve made that point well enough.

    Now let me apply it. Building on what was said by Luigi – who I know and respect as a true traditional (not traditionalist) conservative like myself – I believe we’ll do far better to base the distinctions we make among potential allies in the Church on far more germane criteria than the choice of Mass or reception of Communion. I take strong exception to the notion that some wonderfully holy and sincere Catholics I know who bow to the Magesterium while receiving in the Hand should be thought of as the “enemy.” Not only is that judgmental in the extreme and violates the Lord’s own prohibition, but we are casting away needed allies who may be led by the Holy Spirit to come to grips with what is expected of them in these same areas that concern you, and others as well.

    Your approach casts too wide and too deep a net, in my view, when such devout and loyal souls as these (who also attend the NO) might be subject to the need to travel a kind of spiritual “underground railroad” as refugees from purist TLM devotees hunting down those they regard as a kind of Judas betrayer.

    I have been blessed to have grown in friendship with more than just a few, and those contacts and friendships have been repeated occasions of the Holy Spirit acting in my life through them – and through me in regards to them. It would be plain wrong as well as unnecessarily counter-productive to take this attitude towards them, and I won’t do it. Jesus loves them and so do I. Besides, we’ll be needing them – all of them, and more.

    I might add that although I regard the TLM as the superior Mass – in no uncertain terms – it is also true that the NO as the Mass I’ve attended primarily since my return to the Church over 5 years ago has been my regular worship setting for my spiritual growth over that time (daily the past 3 years). I have had some deeply profound and intense spiritual experiences at the Consecration of a NO Mass, and a couple of times when receiving the Eucharist (on the tongue).

    What am I doing there if I hold the TLM to be superior?

    I’m glad you asked. I’ve hesitated to bring this out onto the table to get feedback, perhaps because I wanted greater clarity about my thoughts before I did, but this occasion has presented itself (so thanks again, Holy Spirit) in a way that suggests to me it might be time.

    However, this post is already long enough, and I respect Father Z too much to thoughtlessly hijack his blog or his post for a separate idea that – no matter how valuable and important it might be (and I hope he’d agree that it is) – probably needs its own post. I hope he’ll consent to do that once I craft my presentation of it to him

    I’ll close by saying the little plan I’m trying to develop will, if applied in the manner I’m considering, place anyone who participates in the role of a kind of spiritual or liturgical fifth columnist within NO parishes. If I’ve got this figured correctly they won’t even realize what happened until it’s too late. Although I’d rather be worshipping in the EF, I’ve been slowly having an impact on the thinking of many of the folks I referenced above on issues as placement of the tabernacle, following the rubrics (such as they sometimes are in America), gender neutral prayers in the NO, not singing “hymns” that worship each other instead of Him, etc.

    I’ve discovered this: going head to head with these good folks to challenge their Catholocity will not work. They – just like me, and probably you – will dig in their heels to resist and quite effectively shut down what they don’t want to have shoved in their faces. Instead, I certainly do share my views in conversation over breakfast after Mass but I back it up by e-mailing links to many of Father Z’s posts (and many of your comments which are instructive – even within the disagreements).

    The result is I have turned around completely on several issues 2 folks in particular who are highly respected by many parishioners, and have done almost as well with a handful of others from among the most actively spiritual members of the parish. I also have made great headway with articles from Adoremus Bulleting and many other fine orthodox Catholic websites and blogs faithful to the Magesterium that supported and often better framed the points I’ve been making over breakfast.

    There are a lot of these loyal and thoughtful Catholics attending the NO across the world who are unwittingly open to being influenced with knowledge and perspectives they’ve rarely encountered – but patiently, personally, and in a thoughtful manner commensurate to their own. They are the spiritual or religious equivalent to the famous “mushy middle” that political demographers attempt to capture every election cycle beyond the hard core liberal and conservative bases of our body politic.

    We need to capture their support in the coming struggle or we will not only lose them but we will lose. While I understand we can only lose in the battles here on earth (we already know the winner, don’t we?) the real question is how many souls will be lost in the struggle, and what could we have done better to minimize that.

    It is from these continued but maddeningly slow successes that I am forming a battle plan to broaden the scope and reach of these successes by the Holy Spirit. I am in the trenches at my NO parish, and that is where I’ll stay as I attempt to create a yearning among these folks for greater mystery, awe, sacredness, majesty, & reverence. Create that in millions of NO Catholics across the world by “upgrading” their expectations of the NO and you create a longing for that which only the TLM does best.

    I can already see the outlines to my path, and I intend to ask many of you for help – with Father Z’s support and assent.

  61. Chris,

    To stand for the authentic Magesterium and the Traditional Mass is to support the proper celebration of the Novus Ordo, as well. The NO Mass is now a Traditional Mass, because it is now part of the Catholic Tradition. You are right to lament abuses to the Mass, but to denounce the rite itself is unwise and quite frankly, un-Catholic.

    We need a return to orthodoxy. But orthodoxy does not necessarily mean TLM. You are establishing battle lines that should not exist, and you are in the process damaging the Church. You are obviously free to attend the TLM, but instead of denouncing the NO, you should be encouraging its proper celebration.

  62. I am not Spartacus says:

    To Chris, Luigi, and Michael. To be fair to the American Bishops, 67% of them were so busy protecting sex criminal priests that they really didn’t have to time for such things as Catechesis and Authentic Liturgy.

  63. Chris says:

    MH: The NO Mass is now a Traditional Mass, because it is now part of the Catholic Tradition. You are right to lament abuses to the Mass, but to denounce the rite itself is unwise and quite frankly, un-Catholic.

    You are the one deciding what is un-Catholic now? Yesterday, if I remember right, you were deciding what Jesus Christ believed. You really have some deep insight. Your seminiary much be top notch.

  64. RBrown says:

    Re Communion in the hand:

    1. From what I’ve seen over the years at masses at which Catholic elementary students are present, it has been taught in the schools that Communion in the hand is better–despite the guidelines insisting on neutrality.

    2. I think most people who receive in the hand think of it as an act of religion, that they’re being more religious than if they received by mouth. Of course, that indicates some p-poor catechesis originating in the hierarchy. [Interesting. You may be on to something with this.]

  65. Simon Platt says:

    RBrown reports “From what I’ve seen over the years at masses at which Catholic elementary students are present, it has been taught in the schools that Communion in the hand is better”.

    I concur. My eldest son and his class at his English catholic primary school were taught very explicitly that their first communions were to be received in the hand. The parish priest insisted upon it.

    And on the topic of hating the pope, according to a report in this morning’s Daily Telegraph the dissenters are not just in parish and diocesan organisations, but also in the Vatican. I suppose I’m not suprised, except that the dissent is so brazen.