UPDATES BELOW!
I have an ACTION ITEM for you!
There is a profoundly dopey poll on a new blog called "Stand Up For Vatican II". They are polling on "Has the Church abandoned Vatican II?".
The idea behind this blog is that Vatican II is under attack!! We have to SAVE VATICAN II … BEFORE IT’S TOOOOO LAAAAATE! ARRRRGH!
They have seen that people are actually reading the documents and are beginning to interpret Vatican II not as a break, but rather in continuity with our past. They are seeing that younger people aren’t interested in the baggage of the aging hippies and are turning to more traditional liturgy. Traditional morality will follow.
To give you an idea of what they are about, here are their speakers for their upcoming event:
Our speakers will be:
- Robert Nowell, as assistant editor of The Tablet he reported from the Council, subsequently report widely on Church affairs as well as translating the works of Hans Kung.
- Myra Poole SND de Namur – Educator, Historian, Feminist Theologian and activist for women in all churches but especially in the RC Church. Present main interest – ‘Ecclesiology in a Different Voice’.
- Michael Winter is a theologian, and founder member of the Movement for Married Clergy. He is the author of several books on English Catholicism, including WHATEVER HAPPENED TO VATICAN II?
You just can’t make up things like this.
The blogger behind this, coincidentally, actually lives in Blackfen, Kent in England. If that sounds familiar, and it should, that is where His Hermeneuticalness, Fr. Tim Finigan, is parish priest, at Our Lady of the Rosary. Fr. Finigan has been the victim of liberal bashing over the years both in the weekly fishwrap The Tablet and even in his own parish.
Go vote in their little poll.
Here is how the poll stands at the time of this writing:
As you can see, the good guys are winning already…. but I think they need to be sent a message.
The correct answer is clearly "No", the Church has not abandoned Vatican II… whatever that means. Even if you dislike everything about Vatican II and think it should be abandoned, the Church has not abandoned Vatican II.
And if you want to be a little more involved, there is a Testimonial section where you can post your view.
UPDATE 2137 GMT
UPDATE 16 Jan 1249 GMT:
It seems the Blackfen blogger behind this effort has decided that it isn’t a good idea to have a poll which doesn’t turn out the results he desired.
It seems he also removed the testimonial section.
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Thanks for the tip! I voted! One of the great gifts of my theological education was to cause me to actually read the documents of Vatican II, which disabused me of most of what I had been told they “said.” Prayers and props to all who are recovering the Second Vatican Council through the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’!
I voted ‘no’.
The list of people on the site that’s putting on the conference is weird, to say the least!
How ironic that the blogger is from Blackfen-maybe His Hermeneuticalness can talk some sense in him.
Just voted. ‘No’, obviously. The no option is up to 77.7% already.
irishgirl: maybe His Hermeneuticalness can talk some sense in him
I think that avenue is closed, though we can hope.
I can’t get onto the comments section for some reason.
Nevertheless, I’ll comment here: we are just beginning to IMPLEMENT Vatican II; these past forty some years have been HELL.
We’re on the road to “recovery”…in the alcoholic’s sense: admit you have a problem; go to God; admit your transgressions; make amends; get on with it, for heaven’s sake:<)!!
One of the testimonials made me chuckle:
“I stand up for Vatican II because because it called for the retention of Latin and gave pride of place to plainchant.”
niiiiice! =D
Well we certainly swarmed it. The no’s have it by a mile.
An ironic note about reading. Typical Vatican II defenders often argue against Latin because it prevents comprehension.
Meanwhile, they don’t want anyone to actually read the Council documents, lest the truth out.
Don’t swarm it too much, it appears to be down the moment. Before it failed, my vote showed 84% saying “no”.
The Z effect is working yet again! 85.1% against 15.1%. They must be a bit baffled!
Who cares. These guys are a bunch of old, cranky losers who are dying out. No one will remember them in 20 years. Let them whine, cry, complain, and moan as loud as they want. They are losing and they know it.
If anything, we should pray for their souls, that their rebellious nature won’t carry over into their final judgement, lest they reject God.
87.7% No.
12.6% yes. (? 100.3% total?)
Total votes: 602
The comment section is still unavailable.
Father,
While I voted no at the poll, I suggest that an argument could be made that in many parts of the Church Vatican II has been abandoned, though clearly not in the way that the authors of the poll believe. Many Novus Ordo liturgies today have very little in common with Vatican II and the stylings of folk music, the ubiquitous use of heretical or at least theologically unsound hymns, the abandonment of gregorian chant, called “especially suited for Roman liturgy” that “must always maintain pride of place,” the alterations to the words of the liturgy contrary to the instructions of the Church, and other innovations that have occurred without sanction in the past several decades, may in fact constitute and abandonment of Vatican II.
Oy vey! Are these people nuts?
In my Archdiocese of Atlanta there is precisely one parish with a Latin Mass. In the Diocese of Savannah, the same situation prevails.
In my parish, the Dir. of Religious Ed., asked each year about the ordination of women, coyly replies “…not yet.” She also champions Fr. Richard Rohr as her favorite theologian.
I didn’t vote because I couldn’t find the “unfortunately, no” option.
Seriously, though, if the minor steps that have been taken in the last few years to reign in the worst modernist innovations and liturgical abuse are going to be called “attacks,” I’d hate to see the kind of panic they’d have over real attacks.
I just had a conversation with a Catholic who’s worried that the Latin Mass will be forced on people. It’s available in maybe 300 of 19,000 parishes in the US, including one of the eight parishes in and around our town, and he feels like it’s crowding him. It’s amazing how easily people who have had their own way for a long time can feel threatened.
On thinking of the poll, it’s occurred to me that a “no” vote won’t necessarily send a clear message. The poll is that vague.
We mean “What Vatican II actuallly said” when we say “Vatican II”, they mean “The spirit of Vatican II”. To them there is no other “Vatican II” (Insert the words “spirit of” and see what I mean).
Another aside, the organizer of this website/poll is the same Bernard Wynne who wrote to the Tablet about Fr. Finigan’s parish, causing a ruckus. See: https://wdtprs.com/2009/02/exercises-in-intimidation-the-tablet-attacks-fr-finigan/ . He lives a mere 4/10 of a mile from the parish.
Has the Church abandoned Vatican II ?
No
832 90.7%
Yes
88 9.6%
Number of Voters : 917
First Vote : Thursday, 24 December 2009 12:49
Last Vote : Friday, 15 January 2010 22:50
That’s a pretty overwhelming invasion. The numbers only keep climbing in favor of traditionalism (and common sense).
The thing is there are 832 votes for no but less than a dozen testimonials, but they tell you when you submit one that they must approve it first so I suspect they have at least a few dozen if not a few hundred testimonials in their in-box awaiting approval.
The testimonials are very nice though, the submitters (traditionalists of course) have obviously actually read the documents of Vatican II.
When I logged in the screen kept jumping about but I persevered and got to the poll which is overwhelmingly in the No category. I have just had occasion to write a letter in a Catena (which is the magazine of The Catenian Association – a Catholic men’s organisation), against a group who have just posted that the whole of the SSPX were excommunicated and wished to protest against any talks between the SSPX and the Vatican because “the SSPX would undermine Vatican II”!!!
One can clearly see NOW where that group are coming from!
I used to worry that Vatican II would be abandoned for the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” while Pope Paul VI was going through his living martyrdom, betrayed by so many Catholics, especially “by the dramatic departure of thousands of priests from the ministry; he called the exodus his ‘crown of thorns.'”
Thankfully, the Holy Spirit has blessed Holy Mother Church with two great and energetic popes in John Paul II and Benedict XVI, who have made great strides in dispersing “the smoke of Satan”* that had polluted Her.
*[Pope Paul VI] asserts that he has the feeling that ‘from some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered into the temple of God’ (da qualche fessura sia entrato il fumo di Satana nel tempio di Dio (Insegnamenti di Paulo VI Vol. X [1972], 707).”
That was the testimonial I submitted.
The original poll has now been taken down because some people voted more than once from the same IP address. A more robust poll that does not allow this has now been set up on the same site, so people will need to vote again.
At about 9am GMT it stood at approx 92% No and 8% yes.
The No’s had it, as they say.
Well, they’ve taken down the poll and the testimonials section. They’re nowhere to be seen anywhere on the site. Casualties of war. The only thing we could possibly do now is sack the petition, but by signing it, we would essentially be supporting them. You can leave comments with your signature, but most of the comments there are very liberal and contain some problematic teachings. I’m sure there’s a good way to respond to this. Any ideas for what we should do now (in addition to the obvious response: pray, which we should already be doing)?