I found this on the blog Ten Reasons:
Would it surprise you to learn that Fr. Lawrence Mick, official catechist for the Worship office of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, has signed his name to an online petition opposing the new Mass translations? [Yes, actually. It would surprise me that a diocesan official would place himself in opposition to the new translation.]
Other signatories include Fr. Ken Overberg, S.J., and several other priest-malcontents at Xavier University; would-be priestess Louise Akers, S.C.; Fr. Glen Chun, S.J., one of the new priests at the rebranded St. Xavier Church downtown; and a gaggle of "lay ministers" and women religious. [Great company!]
Click the "diocese" header on the site and scroll ahead to tab 70. Since these folks are always quick to cite the documents of obscure subcommittees of the bishops’ conference to kick sand on the authoritative pronouncements of the Magisterium, one wonders how they would square their dissent with the USCCB’s unambiguous and detailed effort to catechize the faithful about the importance of the new translations.
Now even more people can see their names!
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its a waste of time signing a petition opposing the new translation for the forma ordinaria. its not going to stop it anyway
Saint Peter at the pearly gates: “Ah, yes, I see that thou hast signed the WIWJSW petition. Hmm, well… what if I were to just say… wait? Wouldst thy be perturbed? Senior management hast told me that thou hast been wait listed… indefinitely, it appears. Though, we do have a review committee working on thy case and the wait shan’t be too long… a mere 30,000 days of purgatorial fire ought to do it. Next!… Senator Kennedy, still trying to crash the gate I see… – that’s a no no.”
Snigger, snigger….It’s clearly not the most intelligent thing to put you name on a list like that. I think it’s absolutely hilarious.
I am amazed to see so many people signing this petition from South Africa (whose bishops jumped the gun and implemented the current version before it was approved) These include several young South African Jesuits and a couple of other priests – one of whom I hold in high regard – who should know better. When push comes to shove will the organisers of this petition count only the USA votes – excluding Canada and any other country?
I’m just glad the “usual suspects” don’t include anybody I know. But it’s handy to have a list of people who want to treat the people of God like mushrooms — cover us with manure and rotting leaves and keep us in the dark.
Unfortunately for me I clicked on the country button to see what the situation in the UK was like. Hardly a torrent of support but I see my Archdiocese is very well represented as is my deanery – God help us all. One of the signatories on the list was my high school chaplain – a very gentle priest. The other priest is an out and out liberal from my neighbouring parish. I’m only surprised not to see the gentleman who masquerades as my parish priest on there! We must pray that these misguided (probably decent) priests see the light and very soon (and no not the light of the oncoming trian).
I’m afraid though for me it only goes to accentuate my already negative views of the current situation. I think I counted 5 ‘anonymous’ priests of the Leeds Diocese (they would, methinks, prefer to be ice-skating). In know that in the main the majority of the ‘People of God’ are quiet people and will accomodate and accept the changes, just as they did 40 years ago. It’s just that for me I cannot actually see any light. I read great things on here as to what people actually do and I have tried tirelessly for the last 15 years or so to improve and instruct the laity(through sacred music) but to little or no avail. My own family don’t seem to even agree with me.
Christmas has been for me a complete upset. The last few years have seen a gradual increase in earlier and earlier Vigil Masses. With people saying “well it gets it over and done with”. In two local parishes there were 200 and 300 respectively at the Vigil Mass and at midnight 30. The Missa Cantata on Christmas morning (which I played for and sang at the same time!) attracted about 30 people. Midnight Mass used to be for me one of the great moments in both Church and Family life. Now I’d rather it didn’t even happen.
I’m sorry to be so negative but petitions like this one (and as silly as they are) only serve to make me even more downhearted as to the future.
Many signatories are described as “lay minister.” What is that exactly? We have two priests and everyone else is a lay person. What is a “lay minister?” Thanks.
On the bright side, it’s good to have a list of people to pray for….
There are almost 1000 whose “names” are Anonymous! How can any petition allow this. If you are going to sign a petition sign it with your own name. It is cowardly to use “Anonymous”.
A petition that allows for people to sign anonymously is worthless as a tool to illustrate the actual opinions of real people and this survey is a complete joke.
Going to the petition out of curiosity I see that the Archbishop of Westminster’s name is one of the first. If this is really him then I am stunned.
On another blog I frequent, occasionally someone will post as “Anonymous” and someone else posting as “Anonymous” will tell the earlier Anonymous to use another name because that one is “taken” :-) Maybe someone ought to tell these petition signers to do the same.
Last I knew, this petition also allowed for a person to sign it numerous times. And the “Anonymous” signing cracks me up, too.
Huxtaby, I am sorry for your situation. I can relate. I live in a diocese that is overrun with dissent and is suffering from rapidly declining Mass attendance.
“Lay ministers” are often people who bring the Eucharist to the homebound or those in nursing homes and other health care facilities. Our parish also defines them as “lectors, greeters, sacristans, and catechists.”
A petition that allows for anonymous signatories is also capable of allowing persons to sign the names of others. Don’t be surprised if the petition is found to contain many such inaccuracies, thus confirming its total worthlessness.
Ha Ha! I find o be tiresome how whiney the 1960s generation in the Church is, espcially since their loathesome project is crumbling all around them.
I am a lay ecclesial minister and I publicly proclaim my support for the new translation! Nay! Further, I publicly proclaim my support for NO TRANSLATION! Use the Latin!
Lay ecclesial minister defined:
Lay ecclesial ministers are women and men whose ecclesial service is characterized by:
Authorization of the hierarchy to serve publicly in the local church,
Leadership in a particular area of ministry,
Close mutual collaboration with the pastoral ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons,
Preparation and formation appropriate to the level of responsibilities that are assigned to them.
See http://www.usccb.org/laity/laymin/index.shtml
I followed the link and immediately notice the name of Alice Kramden from Brooklyn. My only reaction is: Bang. Zoom. To the moon, Alice!!!!
Re the Abp of Westminster’s Name
I notice that a fair number of the UK entries have spurious names including the names of three of the 40 Martyrs and one of the Irish signatories appears to be Fr Jack Hackett from the Fr Ted TV series.
wchoag,
So according to the USCCB’s definition, we have too types of lay ministers–those who are (having been installed as Acolyte or Lector), and those who aren’t.
It’s a bit like being in a hall of mirrors at a carnival.
“Come on Thomas! Look at these names. Won’t you sign, and come with us, for fellowship’s sake?”
“My Lord, when you are sent to Heaven for following your conscience, and I am sent to Hell, for not following mine, will you come along, for Fellowship’s sake?”
Stephen Morgan – yes I saw one of them is ‘Fred and Rosemary West’. Grim names to those of us in England. Can there really be another couple with the same names? I was curious as well to see if my own diocese was represented. There were only two from here and one of these had a spelling mistake in the name of the diocese.
Ugh-I agree with wchoag when he says that the 1960s generation is whiny.
Would they like some cheese with that ‘WHINE’?
Re: anonymous. Reader’s Digest story…hearing that flight is cancelled man from back of line rushes counter, “I absolutely must get on that plane. Don’t you know who I am?” Clerk behind counter, “Attention in the airport. There is a man at such-and-such counter who does not know who he is. If anyone can help…”, and the line collapsed into guffaws, while the man slinked away.
Well..at least you can use this “petition” as evidence of obstinacy when it comes time for formal excommunications to be handed down.
I found the name of a priest in my archdiocese who signed the “petition” and even put in a rant in the combox at America Magazine’s online article. The V.G. was soon made aware of it.
For those who didn’t catch the subtle jab the author delivered, the photo they posted is of the Missale Romanum editio typica tertia (2002). IOW, the Latin original that these translations are supposed to be mirroring.
Fr. Lawrence, Mick (or was that Mick, Lawrence) was pilloried numerous times in The Flying Buttress newsletter several years ago. Fr. Overberg has sung out of tune so often he couldn’t match the Church’s pitch to save his soul (including his latest published dismay at the disciplining of the wymmen’s ordination advocate Sr. Louis Akers.) Both are rank modernists, and Mick has absolutely disqualified himself to be the catechist of anything, let alone of an Archdiocese. This is just more of the sordid legacy of Pilarczyk – who, thank God, just stepped down a couple of weeks ago. I feel sorry for Archbishop Schnurr because of the mess he has inherited: he needs to set off a cockroach aerosol bomb at 100 E. 8th St., and then follow it up with another one at the Xavier Univ. Theology Department (a Jesus Seminar stronghold).
Yes, I checked all 8500 or so signatures yesterday. I noticed one of the signatories in our diocese is a priest who was recently honored (as in the last 4 months) by the Holy Father as a Chaplain of His Holiness. While this priest has repeatedly made it clear that he did not want the honor and not to call him “Monsignor,” how can one accept an honor from the Holy Father and then turn around and publicly oppose the new translations? Disgusting.
Another signer was a music teacher, a Sister, I had back in the first and second grade. While I was not surprised, I was nonetheless saddened that she has been brainwashed into believing this trash.
I disagree 100% with the “wait” petition, but we don’t do justice if we attack them for something that is untrue. If you notice on the signature form of the petition, there is a check mark that prevents the signatory’s name from showing up on line. It doesn’t mean that they signed it anonymously, it just means they show up as “anonymous” when we look at the list of signatures. I think that’s reasonable, but I also don’t have any qualms about having my name prominently on the counter-petition.
I notice that “Martin Luther” and “Judas Iscariot” have signed the online petition.
Warren, Love your post.
Huxtaby, Do not despair. The attendances you mentioned are the same in our Parish. Keep on being faithful in the small things and the greater blessings will come. (I think you & I may be in the same line of ministry.) Keep on doing what you do, faithfully, whether or not there is praise or pats-on-the-back. Do all unto the greater glory of God, that is our aim.
Let all those Hymns and Psalms you are playing become prayer for you personally. Oh, and asking St. Cecelia to interceed for us is a sure help.
I have scrolled through the list of petitioners from my home diocese and it is disheartening to say the least. For one moment – I wish such people would take into account their actions and the collateral damage that it might have. My main concern are the faith of people in the Magisterium and vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life. To be realistic – it is improbable that such a petition will dissuade vocations but I believe it is indicative of another major problem! I would tend to believe that those who sign this petition (and I am talking in generalities) dissent with many teachings of the Church. How can I make such a claim? Well in some respect I lived it for 2 years as a seminarian. And with the atmosphere of dissent (within the vocation program and in general) I decided I had to go elsewhere. Though I have left, I have solid orthodox friends (seminarians) who God willing will make it through. The reality that I have come to grips with (not totally but I am getting there) is that there are persons working within the Church who will do almost anything to derail peoples “faith” in the Magisterium (They say “Rome will be Rome”) and vocations Do they have that power? Most certainly (at least within there own diocese). They can and will “ask someone to leave” or tell their parishioners that “Rome” is out of touch with our reality . Those who dissent and think they are bigger than the Church are hurting its health. My prayer and hope is that they will come to see and believe that the Church has a wisdom far beyond our understanding and that there is a beauty and serenity in submitting ones own will to that of Hers!
I wish the petition were a poll we could throw right now. Does anyone know if there’s a petition in SUPPORT of the new translation, like one saying, please ignore the luggerheads, there are some of us who DO support the new translation?
There’s actually an archbishop on the list. Former Archbishop of Seattle, the scandalous Raymond G. Hunthausen. Tommy Gumbleton will be embarassed at his oversight in letting another heretic bishop beat him to the first honor.
“Lay ministers”………the usual suspects.
I just re-read to see if any new names appeared and got to thinking. Had the Novus Ordo been implemented primarily in Latin and ad orientem, with perhaps the invitation to the Penitential Rite, the readings, and the Prayers of the Faithful in the vernacular, could we not have avoided all this translation mess?
Harold Paratestes…Hee hee hee.
When this thing first crawled out of the swamp I stopped by with the intent of registering a negative response. I saw the names listed as signees and looked for their comments. None were posted, so I realized I could post a negative remark and end up with my name on the list as having ‘signed’ it. I left the site. I have since gone back for a look. There were about 8-9 times the number of signatures and a few comments, all in favor of this idea. I wonder how many signatures are of those who posted negative comments and had their names used anyway. I don’t think we can assume, because a name shows up there, the person is in favor of the proposition.
Speaking of the usual suspects…..Michael Lastiri Priest Fresno USA. The infamous Fr. Michael Lastiri, director of worship and evangalization in the diocese of Fresno under the leadership of Bishop John T. Steinbock. Yes the same Fr, Lasteri who embezzled money from his former parish and was found cruising on gay internet sites. His reward under Bp. Steinbock…he becomes director of worship in the diocese. Oh the suffering of the faithful in the diocese of Fresno under the current bishop.
wanda, Huxtaby,
Indeed, DO NOT DESPAIR! I can report that heartfelt petitions to St. Cecilia do bear fruit. When we came to our parish, the music featured rather objectional OCP hymns and not particularly good modern anthems. The new music director instituted a positive change — it took time, but what an improvement! We still use the Haugen “Massive Cremation” far too often (once a year would be too often for me!), but we chant the Ordinary in Latin on First Sundays, and for Christmas we sang a Mozart Mass in its entirety (despite Monsignor looking at his watch . . . at least he didn’t SHAKE it). Our music director has composed a beautiful chant-based setting that we sing from time to time. We chant the Psalms, occasionally in Anglican Chant, and Palestrina, Byrd, Tallis, and many other Renaissance composers reign supreme.
The key is to find and identify the musicians in the congregation and get them involved. And gradual change will keep the murmuring from the aging hippies to a minimum.
I see there is one “anonymous” priest of the Diocese of Velletri-Segni. Apparently that diocese embraces the full spectrum from “anon.” to “Z”
Try reading the commments with VH1’s “I Love the 80’s” on in the background. It’s like a time machine.
My 4 favorite signatures:
Barrack H. Obama, Lay Person Washington D.C., USA
Antônio de Castro Mayer, Bishop, Campos dos Goytacazes, Brazil
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, SSPX, Bishop, Anthedon, Gaza
John F. Kennedy, Lay Person, Boston, USA
My favourite signature there is (and apologies if he IS a real person) Lt. Col. Herbert Blandford-Gusset. He sounds like someone out of Monty Python!
It doesn’t surprise me one bit. Not one bit.
After all, the dioceses and religious orders were where the “Spirit of Vatican II” was housed and fed all these years. And from where it was foisted on the rest of us.
Nope. No surprise at all.
I see some people familiar to some of you have shown up on the list. I like the list. Nothing like knowing for sure who your foes are. (Whose books you shouldn’t buy; whose rambling you shouldn’t listen to; whose pocketbook you shouldn’t fatten….) It’s a great advantage, actually. Too bad all the dissidents don’t sign. Then we’d have a list.
I don’t know if Rev. signed this, but Fr. Robert Webster, head of liturgy in the Orlando diocese, has this petition in his Facebook page; http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=Webster+orlando+diocese&init=quick#/robert.e.webster?ref=search&sid=5110028.1416725793..1
Tim Ferguson: I see there is one “anonymous” priest of the Diocese of Velletri-Segni. Apparently that diocese embraces the full spectrum from “anon.” to “Z”
I wrote to them to remove my name from the petition. Some creepy sicko keeps putting something there.
I suppose the only proportioned response could be to ask all WDTPRS readers to start signing the petition with the names of cartoon characters or absurdly impossible historical figures.
The creators of the petition seem to have little interest in authenticating names… which makes their petition ridiculous.
Have just looked at the comments on the petition site and am rapidly coming to the conclusion that there will one day be two churches both of which will call themselves Catholic. The gulf is every widening.
I find many of the comments incredible.
“The very idea that the Nicene Creed would be rewritten with the singular ‘I’ pronoun rather than the plural ‘We’.” I still have to force myself to say ‘We’ even after all these years (except when I am in France which country has retained the singular)) and occasionally I deliberately say ‘I’ as that is what my heart says.
And from a Priest: ” In faith and conscience I cannot see myself saying ‘some’ and not ‘all’. My world has been turned upside down.” I presume this refers to the ‘pro multis’ controversy. My own world was turned upside down some forty years ago so I have some sympathy with these people who are all obviously much younger than myself. Yes the loss of the familiar is devastating, but surely if we will finally get an accurate translation this is what counts? And why has it taken so long?
I see Alex Borgia Bishop of Rome has just signed!
And Archbishop Annibale Bugnini!
That’s a given from the get-go on internet petitions and polls, FrZ. They’re a) entertainment devices, &/or b) attempts to influence the weak-minded. No one should ever really believe these things when they’re out on the open internet like the one in question is.
Anyone can put any alphanumeric nonsense into one of these things. And whoever owns the code (the webpage administrator) can add or subtract names, rig page views and all that. It’s very simple to do, if you’re in that frame of mind. And these jokers clearly are.
The funny part is that there are real recognizable people putting their reputations (and financial welfare) on the line over it. What a great list of dissidents, huh?
PS, I think anyone who knows who you are would know better than to think that’s your real consent to the WAIT effort. The people who don’t visit this site don’t tend to recognize your name; the people who do visit this site know better for sure. You’ve made it very clear here.
I see Alex Borgia’s name has disappeared so perhaps they are monitoring the names more closely now.
pelerin, you say, that you are “rapidly coming to the conclusion that there will one day be two churches both of which will call themselves Catholic. The gulf is every widening.”
Make no mistake. There already are “two churches, both of which will call themselves Catholic”. They merely haven’t gotten around to the paperwork and the fighting over real estate–yet.
The interesting thing is, seeing as how this is going to occur, just when and how is it going to happen? Rome has put the moment off as long as possible. (The strategy didn’t work during the Reformation. I’m not sure it will work today, but they may have reasons for thinking it will. I don’t know.) Eventually, we shall see.
The great question: Pay now or pay later. Which is better?
I was looking through some of the comments on that dissident petition site. It might be interesting to see who is saying what.
For example:
PS, it’s interesting how some of it is already happening by natural attrition.
We have a motherhouse near here. In its heyday, from it came hundreds of nurses and schoolteachers. It doesn’t produce them anymore. There are very few sisters left and they’re old–it’s a dying community. About 2 years ago, this organization merged with several others of the same type and became one big, more or less theoretical one. Meanwhile the grounds are being let out to private individuals and businesses for the rent to keep up the property and support what sisters are left. They are very, very progressive on the whole (although that’s not a homogenous thing). I expect that if a decisive point comes in the Church, this house will go the progressive way. On the other hand, it might anyway, on its way to dying out. Same, same.
There is a cruel but inevitable quality to this dissident business. It will (nearly) die out eventually, if it has enough time to do so. The problem is the amount of damage that occurs while we’re waiting for that to happen. It’s been absolutely a stupendous amount so far–probably not irreparable, but darned near so. And, of course, there are always fragments left behind, no matter how much people like to think not. History says so.
In the parishes, it’s not quite as clear-cut either. Some of that will be absolutely brutal. And expensive. And legal. If you wait until they’re in line, you wait forever, and people are harmed in the process.
So, who pulls the plug? I don’t know. And when? No one knows.
I notice Bobby Beudreaux (sp?) signed on-aka-Adam Sandler in Water Boy.
I signed as Michae Mausse, I wanted to play, too! I don’t see if I’ve been admitted, yet.
Wanda, Thanks for your kind comments. St Cecilia is never far away from my prayers. I do hope that nobody read my comments as some sort of request for a badge of honour, indeed that has never been my aim. Just to provide worthy music, fitting for the sacred liturgy (both forms).
The point I was making about the Christmas Vigil Mass was that up till about 5 years ago the Mass of Christmas Midnight felt very special. This may be seen as some sort of selfishness on my part (to some extent it is) but I think it points to a greater problem in the Church and one which the bishops and clergy have allowed and even fostered.
My other point (badly made as usual) relates to the music for the Sacred Liturgy. I have been involved in liturgical music for about 15 years now and I am completely at a loss as to how things are going to ‘pan out’. The music in this country (UK) is in a dire state. The wonderful televised liturgy of Midnight Mass from Westminster Cathedral was heartwarming indeed – upto a point – but there are very few places that can emulate even a small part of that. But I must say (and yes I am being very observationally very negative) as the cameras panned round quite a number of the congregation were not joining in (even the parts intended for them) and worse still a lot of them looked quite bored. I am becoming increasingly concerned that in our efforts to improve the standards there could be quite a bit of fall-out.
People underestimate what small parishes can do. If the music is modest, the people sincere and the agenda straight-forward, there are many ordinary people who can sing in a very pleasant way, particularly in chorus.
There are very few things that are prettier than well-trained children singing in chorus, for instance. They can easily be taught to sing rounds; 2 part harmony is easy to achieve if you have as little as 8 people. Get rid of the MICROPHONES. They make normal people “act out” and they make normal people sound bad. Teach them to harmonize & LISTEN!
The same holds for groups of men and women who don’t aspire to “the highest notes,” but rather to solid and good-quality singing of good-quality music written for choral groups. Repetition can be the key, like it’s the key to other kinds of learning. Practice, practice, practice.
Going back to the comments on the site mentioned is a bit like returning to an accident scene. It makes for grim reading yet it is becoming compulsive reading the comments of so many who I presume call themselves Catholics.
I have spotted one English comment from the Westminster diocese.
“I have no fidelity whatever to the language of Pontius Pilate, Nero and imperial Rome.”
He or she would have forty fits if they knew what the Council REALLY said about the retention of Latin. And he or she has obviously not watched any Masses celebrated by the Holy Father recently. And does the Pope not sing the ‘Pater Noster’ at his weekly audience?
To what does he or she owe his fidelity?
And for pete’s sake, don’t pull out a copy of the Lacrimosa, or some such thing, on your first try!
Rather, get them to sing Adeste Fidelis WELL–and in a decent KEY so that people can actually sing it without screeching or squeaking! Then move on to something else similarly timeless and appropriate. Practice weekly, bringing in new things one at a time, and revisiting the familiar. Start building a repertoire. Teach them to follow your direction like a real choir.
Competence will happen sooner than you think.
Huxtaby, I know what you mean about Midnight Mass. Sadly the Vigil Mass seems to have become the convenient Mass. I suppose I can understand a little, especially at Christmas-time, families with small children would choose an early Vigil Mass. But, even through the rest of the year, I’m feeling that people choose that early (4:30 Sat. here) Mass because it’s convenient, they have time for all sorts of ‘stuff’ afterward.
I’ve been in Music Ministry for 40 plus years, and let me just say that I consider myself ‘just’ the Organist. I was the teen who ‘could play the piano’ (long story-our birth as a Parish began in a school cafeteria-someone would wheel out the ol’ piano & we made do.) Later, after we built the Church, I just continued on and ‘played’ for Vigil and Sunday Mass. I am not a highly skilled, properly trained Liturgical Musician, far from it. My experience is mostly OJT. Whatever Hymnal came and went, that is what we use. I always take my direction from our Pastor. We have been blessed in that our Church has always been a singing Church, our first Pastor encouraged it and he sang his heart out, as well.
I don’t imagine I’ll continue a whole lot longer, I’ve recently pulled out of the Contemporary Music Group. (I think I may have been influenced-gasp-by this blog and by attending an EF Mass for the first time in ages.)
So I’ll be ready to hand over the reigns to the next younger, way more knowledgeable than myself, Organist-Music Director. You hang in there! You bring hope to the Church for beautiful Liturgical music.
Keep the Faith!
Catholic Midwest – I am with you 100%. I strove for 10 years to gradually improve and educate but when the priest in charge (who was actually quite orthodox) was so negative and had completely the worng idea of active participation to the point where he spoilt all the music by singing very loudly down a microphone either too slowly or too quickly it became too much of a challenge, not to mention a scandal – so choir and musical director very graciously retire. Then when that pastor moves on because in 2 years he has caused so much upheaval that parishioners are baying for his blood that the Bishop replaces him with another pastor (this time not orthodox at all) and one who actually physically attacked the said music director by grabbing hold of his collar and shaking him. Said pastor then follows that one up by shouting at the organist from the pulpit on the transferred feast of the Epiphany for not playing music that poeple knew “carols, I want carols” in front of a shell-shocked congregation. Said organist been playing for 49 years and is 75 years old. No-one defended her apart from 6 ladies all who had formed the old choir.
Said pastor now doing very well – thank-you very much. Said musical director now a very bitter twisted and angry nomad. What do his old parishioners and even his own family members think of the musical director for beign so principled – they think he’s a crank. Great.
I’m sorry to see the signature of a previous pastor (not my immediately previous pastor, who is solidly orthodox and offers the EF regularly at his new parish, but the one before him).
I recall, however, that in his final homily, he basically embraced female ordination (or something close to it), so I guess this is no great shock.
Wanda,
So many people have had violence done to their ears and their hearts by the contemporary liturgical establishment that they have adopted a somewhat oppositional or apathetic attitude towards parts of it. Group that up with the following other factors:
a) we live in a performance culture and the music leaders perform, complete with microphones (so you don’t sing and drown them out or what? think kareoke)
b) the keys are all wrong for many normal people–and incidently most music leaders too, screech, ouch (too high, too low)
c) the lyrics change all the time, so there’s no point in memorizing anything but local standards (let there be peace on earth, arrghh)
d) a select few are appointed to participate in key ways and they feel free to run over the rest (incendiary songs like “Sing a New Church” or blatantly stupid ones like the Brady Bunch Hymn, rather than older hymns people loved).
e) real choral music by real parishoners is virtually never used in great swaths of the country and hasn’t been for many years. Many younger people don’t remember that it ever was. “That kind of music” is something you get from a music store, done by somebody else.
f) the liturgical music “industry” and it is one now, has decreed that parish music is a profession and should be a highly paid one and one exclusive of non-“professional” input. Now it isn’t highly paid, and it likely will never be, but that’s the ideal. It’s part of the “professionalization” of parish “ministies.” Don’t get me started on that. Nevertheless, people won’t pay for it, no matter what their theoretical opinion on the matter is. Arrogance is the order of the day in many places on this topic, and people don’t pay for that unless it’s earned, and in this case it’s clearly not.
It all boils down to this: No matter what is said verbally, the current liturgical situation says, “We are the experts. We know more than you. And we don’t want your input.” OK-AY THEN. Throw in the towel. Music must not be very important, huh?
And there you have it.
Sorry to hear all that, Huxtaby. It can’t be easy having to deal with some of these pastors. I’ve seen a few situations myself, from the layperson end. Parishes seem to come and go, in terms of decent leadership from the priest. We’ve had some doozies here–I can’t imagine having had to deal with them over music.
B Knotts, he fired a parting shot, did he? I’m not sure that’s unusual. Did he retire or did he go on to be a pestilence to someone else?
Good grief,
I hope Helen Hull Hitchcock is following all of this – and puts it in the next edition of Adoremus Bulletin.
Her commentaries would be worth reading (about those *legit* signees of the petition, especially).
Fr Z: I saw that comment from Fr. Haselhorst of my diocese. This is the diocese in which the priests are affiliated with CTA and have sought the removal of the duly-appointed Bp Braxton. Same bishop/diocese from the anti-kneeling crowd last week. [news updates at my blog.] My pastor has signed on I noticed. I plan to, in passing after Mass, comment innocently on how excited I am about the new translations…and he must be too, of course…I can imagine the expression I will get. Over 15 priests from our diocese, with not much over 100 diocesan, order and imported priests active (& retired, I think). So, this is about a 10% rebellion rate.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/enoughwaiting/
I signed the above petition. Take a look at it. For the changes, obviously…….
Everyone: If you are going to sign a petition, sign your real name or don’t sign.
In other words, be counted for what you think without being a sniveling coward.
Thank you, Father. Stand up and cheer!
There IS a petition for those of us who want the new translation:
Whoops. The HTML tag didn’t work, so try “copy and paste”:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/enoughwaiting/
The “Wait” petition has been gaining signatories all day. [I’ve been scouting for priests from my diocese.] It is approaching 8800 signatories. The “Finally” petition has under 2500 signatories, not gaining many at all today. I have signed openly and honestly. I hope others add their names as well.
OK, maybe I am a bit obtuse, but why does it seem that the slight majority of people signing the anti petition are women? What is in the translation which would irritate so many sisters and lay women?
Perhaps the folks behind the “Finally” petition ought to keep bloggers informed about what is going on and ask for help.
Probably, Father Z. Perhaps we should “go forth and spread the Gospel” among the other blogs in the Catholic blogosphere?
Fr Z,
Do these petitions really make any difference? Is the ability to make decisions in Rome these days really so wobbly and weak-minded as to be influenced by an open internet poll?
This is a serious question. I’d like your opinion since you worked there for so long. It’s worrisome to me.
I would like to think that they make decisions in Rome on a more worthy set of criteria.
CatholicMidwest,
My $.02. I think petitions like “Enough Waiting” can be a useful antidote to the warped and self-selecting sensus fidelium presented by the AmChurch types.
FWIW, our new shepherd in Cincinnati, His Excellency Dennis M. Schnurr, has almost certainly been informed by now of Fr. Mick’s participation in the dissentient poll.
If he’s smart, he’ll claim that whoever put Fr. Z’s name up there put his up as well!
It takes a certain kind of stupidity to put your name on a poll like this!
American Mother: And therefore request that it be removed.
I wonder how many signers they would have if they removed all the “anonymous” entries.
There’s no guarantee that the people plugging in the data online are even remotely Catholic as well. People add silly data to all kinds of things online just for kicks.
I wonder how many Donald Ducks from Disneyland Florida they’ve removed so far.
I’d be hesitant to refer to this as a “dissident” poll. People do have a right to express their opinions on matters that are not de fide. The law gives all the faithful (including the clergy) the right to express their desires to the pastors (read: Bishops) of the Church (c. 212, 2). You and I might find the particular opinion expressed in this poll as moronic (and I most certainly do), but there’s a world of difference between signing a poll urging the reconsideration of a translation project and signing a statement advocating the ordination of women or a reconsideration of the Church’s teaching on celibacy.
That said, I do hope that bishops take a close look at their clergy who sign polls like this. These priests should have no part in programs or seminars promoting the new translations when they are approved. They are perfectly free to disagree with the translations or the timing, but once the translations are approved, I hope and pray that they submit themselves to the reality: the 70’s are gone, and we shall not see their like again (Deo volente).
Fair point, Tim (though I called the poll “dissentient.”)
What prompted the post is the fact that a man authorized by the Worship office of a major diocese to teach the faithful about the liturgy is publicly opposing one of the Church’s major liturgical initiatives. Regardless, there are some promising developments on the immediate horizon in Cincinnati:
http://richleonardi.blogspot.com/2010/01/is-reform-of-reform-coming-to-athenaeum.html
Shucks, I want a petition to just keep the Traditional text of the Traditional Latin Mass of 1962. Anybody out there with me on that?
Tim,
I hear you and somewhat agree. But I feel the reality is that priest who sign this petition are more likely to truly oppose its implementation. I was looking at my diocese and most of the priest who “signed” are those whom I would be wary of. But lets wait and see what happens…
I see that the “anti” petition has swept through at least two parishes I’m familiar with here in Chicagoland, and a number of the usual suspects from those parishes are included. At least one is a lay friar who once told me that some orthodox and ancient Catholic teaching affirmed by Vatican II (I don’t recall what now, this was a dozen years ago at least) couldn’t be true ‘because I don’t believe it.’ (Or vel sim.) My response (to paraphrase) was that was about the dumbest idea I’d heard, rather like saying 2+2?4 because somebody doesn’t believe it.
On the surprising side, there are several people in those parishes I’d have expected to see that I didn’t.
I did note that a number of composers’ names are on the list, to go along with this comment “and the composers of the rich tradition of 40 years, without royalties, etc.“. Well, one of the reasons I joined the choir in my parish over two decades ago was to push back against the pile of musical dreck that had even then been foisted on us by the music publishers.
And, finally, can someone explain to me why I find this statement from one of the comments confusing? There’s something about it that seems contradictory …
“I was born into the Catholic Church, attended 16 years of Catholic school, was married in the Catholic Church, have baptized my three children into the Church and was finally confirmed at the age of 40. I lived and breathed Catholicism“.
Or make that 2+2=/=4 (i.e., not-equal).
In the first 50 pages of names I found about 8 lay people, two religious (only one signed her name), one priest (signed his name) and possibly a second anonymous priest from my diocese. How many more pages are there to this thing?
Looks like a total of 89 pages so far.
Following yesterday’s discussions I did some research relating to the names of priests from the Archdiocese of Liverpool (UK) which apart from Leeds (mostly anonymous priestly signatures) formed the majority of the names of priests from the UK. This indeed is a sad indictment as that area of the country was up until not long ago one of the most orthodox areas of Catholicism in England. Renowned for it’s Catholic Martyrs (indeed how sad that one of the priestly names is the same name as the great St John Southworth – who died for the Faith in penal times).
The information found was freely available on the Archdiocesan website. My concern being that some of these men are in ‘key’ positions. One thing I would ask readers to note is the year of ordination found in brackets. You will be little surprised.
Jonathan Cotton OSB MA VF Religious Liverpool (1971) (Leader formerly known as Dean)
Michael O’Dowd STL (Episcopal Vicar for Schools and Colleges) Priest Liverpool (1971) (Sits on the Archbishop’s Council)
Revd David P Heywood Priest Liverpool (1989)
Richard Sloan Priest Liverpool (lives in London) (1976)
Gerry Procter BA Priest Liverpool (no Parish) (1977)
Paul Seddon MA Priest Liverpool (1987)
John Southworth VF Priest Liverpool (1976) (Council for Priests) (Chairman of the Department of Music) (Leader formerly known as Dean)
Cecilia Snape Religious Liverpool – no details.
And so this is the situation and whilst I freely admit that it’s not a great percentage (two of them aren’t apparently in active ministry and one of those lives in London!) it should be a mark of concern to all that these men and women are willing to be the ‘voice of dissent’ albeit in a silly little petition about ‘don’t like that’.
I don’t like a lot of things like pot chalices, general absolution, questionable living arrangements for clergy etc. but there’s little point me saying anything because if I complained no-one would actually listen.
Sorry Fr Z, I’ve started the year ranting but a Blessed New Year to all and please do continue to pray for all bishops, priests and religious, especially the above named.
For example:
It is time for our bishops to to stand up to Rome.
Rev Msgr Vincent Haselhorst | Priest | Belleville | USA
Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
I prefer to say that it’s time for Rome to stand up to the likes of Msgr Haselhorst.
A few points:
1. Almost all of those clerical signees have opinions formed during their seminary years–or else are laity influenced by those same clerics.
2. Vincent Haselhorst is a monsignor because those in authority agreed with his opinions.
3. The situations in those seminaries were all but mandated under the papacy of Paul VI–and tolerated under that of John Paul the Great.
There are two people who listed themselves as priests in Atlanta, but they aren’t our priests (they’re not listed on the Archdiocese’s website). It’s good to see that Msgr. Gracz, who is the rector of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception (the oldest church in the city) and the Vicar for Clergy signed the petition. I don’t know what he’s complaining about, it’s not like he even uses the missal he has. I swear the man makes it up as he goes along.
I’m not even worried about the laymen who have signed it. It’s the priests who are charged with teaching us about the new missal that are going to create division when they publicly denigrate it. And couldn’t some priests (sadly not all of them) find themselves in hot water if their bishops see that they’ve signed this thing?
I am pleased to find only 4 entries from my diocese (New Ulm) Two priests (retired), a Lay Minister, and an anonymous religious.
I’m sorry this has really got my nerves jangling. I’ve scanned through some of the comments. Oh how hard done to, these people are! They say “I’ve been Director of Liturgy for the past X years” or “I have a degree in theology”.
What you have said needs saying – and even more strongly. I recommend p.295 of Paddy Kearney biography of Archbishop Denis Hurley, ‘Guardian of the Light’ (Continuum 2009). Denis Hurley, one of the founding fathers of ICEL, following Vatican II, wrote: “At times I find it difficult to understand the attitude of the Roman Curia. It seems to be more concerned with power than with humble service… Why are such people promoted to positions of authority where they seem to be promoting hier ego rather than the Church! May the Lord come to our help.”
Kevin T Kelly | Priest | Liverpool | UK
My simple observation………..ego?
Fr Ryan is right and unusually courageous. But he is too kind to the bishops. It is they who have betrayed us, and the beautiful vision of Vatican II. This was their battle to fight – and win – behind closed doors, if possible. They should have carried on resisting this folly and challenging the deluded assumptions of those who are driving this ‘reform of the reform’. What do they fear, anyway – Rome’s tanks on their palace lawns? If they had stood firm – and together – Rome would have had to back down. What hope is there for us when our bishops don’t believe in their own authority, nor in their responsibilities to us, their priests and people?
Paul Browne OSB | Priest | Liverpool | UK
My observation……real fighting talk here from a son of St Benedict “battle, tanks, stood-firm, back-down” there is real bitterness here from one ordained only in 1995.
I have spent my life composing liturgical music for what has proven to be strong, poetic texts. In 45 years a wealth of good settings has entered the congregational repertoire. Many composers have accomplished what the Church has asked of them and it is tragic that so many Bishops here and in Rome are anxious to take that repertoire away from our people for unknown settings to come of a clumsy, ungraceful new translation. The proposal to “just wait” while engaging in a trial period with select parishes throughout the English-speaking world might just save the Bishops from the embarrassment sure to come.
RICHARD PROULX | Lay Person | Chicago | USA
My simple observation…..oh we are going to loose all those filthy rich royalties from all the rubbish music that’s been composed over the last 40 years.
Oh, was that music we were hearing all these years? Most of the songs sound like soap commercials. In fact, my family had a bad habit of changing the lyrics of some of the worst “we” and “I” songs, which emphasize the congregation rather than the Holy God Incarnate Present in the Host and Wine. But, I am a little kinder to the Bishops. If one never has a choice for good or even great music, how can one develop good taste? The lack of teaching of the Gregorian Chant in seminaries for years has more likely contributed to the lack of a good ear for music than any hierarchical decisions. If there is an void, anything will fill it. Also, the idea that liturgical music must somehow mirror popular music is a philosophical problem. Choir directors want to be trendy and not “elitist” as they see Latin hymns as….
Most parishes have both access to the internet for finding copyright-free music AND a copy machine. They say they’re always needing money. Why don’t they try getting some music for free and saving some of the money they have?
Yes, supertradmom,
There’s a huge business in copyrighting “liturgical music.” This is why “unique” versions of old hymns (with screwy lyrics) appear in church these days. The words are changed and voila–$$$$$ can be made. We have hymn of the week, and our own Top 10 Hits. Grrrr. They don’t care what it does or doesn’t do for the spiritual lives of people. It’s about CASH and PROFESSIONALIZATION. Professionalization, my ***. The people selling hymnals (missalettes etc) rode the coattails of the original ICEL. And most of the song leaders that I’ve heard in Catholic churches couldn’t carry a tune in a 10 gallon bucket. With a lid. Music in the CAtholic church is all messed up.
You know what? So what…?
To all this hype, blogging about rejecting the new translations and taking a poll with almost 9.000 signatures, and rejection of the authority of the Bishop’s Conference and Rome’s approval.
We will know, when this happens (the implemntation of the approved translations), who is “on board” and “who is not.”
Let the people then choose to go where obedience, common sense, and authentic Catholic practice are being honored.
This bunch is not gonna budge, I’m afraid. They don’t fear excommunications, interdicts, or hell (I hope that last one is not the truth!). They’re a bunch of spoiled rotten, soft, secularized “Catholics” who want to call the shots. It ain’t gonna happen.
I think you’re right, nazareth priest.
People here forget that the US is only about 5% of the Catholic church. I honestly think that what was going on here was “falling through the cracks”–not being understood or considered important for many years because there was so much else going on. The Holy See is closer to Europe and situations there have been very grave for years–low mass attendance, etc. We looked fine from that lens. We had weirdos, but Europeans think Americans are all loud-mouth weirdos anyway, so our weirdos didn’t set off the BIG alarms. I’m pretty sure that’s why Rome looked the way it did (confused, annoyed, oblivious) before about 1997.
That all changed with the translation of the CCC. Rome got a huge in-their-face look at our real problems and was very, very alarmed at what it finally saw. It was an epiphany (sorry, couldn’t resist.) This whole translation issue is a follow-on from that. Rome understands that corrective attention is way overdue now, and how much our problems have affected other geographical regions that are derivative on our translations. I expect this is going to get the fast track, and that nothing is going to stop it.
After the force it took to bring about the independent translations of the CCC in the English language areas, and place them in WalMart (to put certain people in their place), then the 1962 Mass, and now this, the Vatican is regaining its nerve. Perhaps now that they’re aware of our problems, they’ve realized that the worst case scenario, when it comes to the English language crowd, isn’t trying and incompletely succeeding; rather, the worst case scenario in every case is not trying and not succeeding because of not trying. There is no rationale for the latter to ever happen. This really could be the modern counterpart of the Reformation if they don’t get on it and they know that now.
I’m wondering if they will publish a certain date on which the new translations will take effect and the old ones become illicit–sort of like they did in 1970. I expect that blogs like this one will have open threads like the “What did you see on Holy Thursday” threads. All of us laypeople who want to stay licit will go through a rearrangement and a little search and find ourselves a place to go to church with the right translation, and that will be that. The others? I have no idea what will happen after that for them. I suppose that will be regional and depend on each bishop……
The Vatican will be watching and we will see…….
And yeah, I know the TLM didn’t really become illicit, but this one might. This one is only 40 years old.
catholicmidwest: I agree wholeheartedly. Blessings.
Thank you, Fr. Happy New Year.
I wonder what percentage of Catholics know that new translations are coming? I have heard precisely nothing in Church. Perhaps something will be said in April when the news of the recognitio comes?
More suspects from the Diocese of Fresno…Benita Lankford Lay Minister Fresno, CA USA
Geraldine Brown Lay Person Fresno, CA USA
K. Connelly Lay Person Fresno, CA USA
Pat Reinhart Religious Fresno United States
Michael Lastiri Priest Fresno USA
Stephen C. Bulfer Priest Fresno USA
William G Simon Lay Minister Fresno United States
Alfred F. Kudela Lay Minister Fresno U.S.A.
Rita Jovick Religious Fresno Tulare
Priscilla Guest Lay Person Fresno USA
The priest lead parishes, Fr. Lastiri is the director of evangilization and worshop. I am curious how many others, including the religous may be teachers or school administrators. The probably read this blog at the “pastoral center” in Fresno, but standard operating procedure under bishop Steinbock is to do nothing unless there is some type of legal action against the diocese involved. Here is a question, if Fr. Lastiri is the director or worship will he follow the order to impliment changes or will he rebel?
Sr’s Jovick and Reinhart, Presentation sisters working in the diocese of Fresno…wanting to wait for a while…stuck in the 70’s translations…and vocations in their order are? nill?
The Atlanta crowd are the usual suspects – I recognize a number of folks that write ugly letters to the “Bulletin” bemoaning any tendency to traditional or orthodox practice in music or liturgy. There was a poisonous stream of hysterical letters a year or so ago, just because the “Bulletin” featured an article about 2-3 parishes that were reintroducing Gregorian chant. (Thankfully a professional musician in the archdiocese wrote a thundering good letter that squelched them completely – along the lines of “what on earth are you AFRAID of, just because a few parishes have a little diversity in music?”).
I also recognize more than one who wrote letters claiming that the presidential candidate of their choice wasn’t “really” in favor of abortion, and even if he was, why that was insignificant compared to his support of what REALLY matters!
Jayna, one of the other priests is at Lourdes downtown. And I agree that Msr. Gracz doesn’t surprise me at all. I sometimes go to Mass at Immaculate Conception when I’m downtown, and the goofiness and blatant political posturing there is beyond awful. Especially when it’s occurring in that lovely, lovely sanctuary right in front of the beautiful high altar (and where DID they hide the Tabernacle)?
Dang, Huxtaby.
I like what I’ve heard of Proulx’s music – he writes some good stuff and he did solid work on the 1982 (Episcopal) hymnal, which was nowhere near as bad as it could have been.
Too bad he’s letting his fear of losing royalties trump his common sense. If he’s as good as I think he is, he can rework his music to the texts as easily as Schutte (ugh) managed to excise “Yahweh” from that awful “Sing a New Song”. I had really hoped we would get rid of that for good.
An American Mother,
Yes I was disappointed –
I know little of his work but the recordings he has made were ok and the music chosen quite orthodox. We should never be surprised at anything. I see the name of Terence Duffy on that list he was the Musical Director at the Catholic Cathedral in Liverpool up until last year. His brother Philip was the organist and made some pretty ‘dire’ congregational Masses which were sung when HH PJP II visited Britain in 1982. Again one might assume that it’s the potential loss of royalties – but is that me being too cynical?
This is just a comment from the “peanut gallery” (one who does not have to ‘put up’–at this time anyway–with the shenanigans of all this mullarky of those who “do their own thing” liturgically).
We have to batten the hatches, hunker down, weather the storm, and pray, do penance and be faithful.
God is good. He is in charge. The ‘motu proprio’ freeing the 1962 Missal for widespread usage is a sign. Let’s pray a lot of rosaries and hope in the Lord!
Back when I was an Episcopalian, our music director used quite a number of Proulx’s settings for both Psalms and the Ordinary (the ECUSA Rite II is quite similar to the OF, and although I don’t know for sure it seems likely that it was developed in consultation w/ the ICEL).
Whatever the Piskies’ failings in liturgy and theology (o.k., here’s the word with the bark on it: it’s a nest of serpents), you can’t accuse them of having bad taste in music.
It might not be royalties, he may just be letting his reflexive liberalism overcome his common sense. I know good musicians who are pretty boneheaded when it comes to other church issues.
nazareth priest,
Yes, always, prayer, penance and persistence!
I am hopeful . . . really I am! I have come from a much worse place, and am journeying towards a much better place (with many bobbles, backslidings and detours on the road, but still with that goal in mind)!
catholicmidwest,
He had intended on retiring, but the Archbishop asked him to go to another parish that needed a pastor.
American Mother,
We have a lot of the opposite: Relatively normal parishoners in pretty much every regard, except for the fact that they are as tone deaf as earthworms. Have no idea why. Maybe it’s a hereditary Catholic affliction since 1960 or so–a gene sequence gone awry from too many spaghetti suppers & paczkis??? Don’t know.
Yes, we have our miscreants who do this for financial * political gain. But what off all of these normal people who seem to accept that religious music HAS GOT TO BE BAD???
If you repeat something over and over again, catholicmidwest; there was a mistaken idea in the ’70s that people would only tolerate church music that was like popular music. They’ve been haugenized. Richard Proulx’s music helped disprove that false theory. He was music director at Holy Name Cathedral for a fairly long time. He is now relatively retired.
Just an aside, I have no idea, whatsoever, from a purely human perspective, what all of this is going to actually come to in the following years. No clue. Sorry.
I only know that the Tradition of Catholic liturgical practice, as part of the ‘organic development’ within the proper authority and ‘sensus fidelium’ (not meant as the current understanding of “what feels good, do it” or “what we have known for 30 years” but the practice of the Popes, Doctors, and Saints of the Roman Church), is going to continue…whether it be it in isolated places, certain Dioceses, religious houses…it’s up to God.
But those who are desirous of being faithful Catholics will find a place, make sacrifices to be there for Holy Mass, join religious houses that are truly Catholic, form associations that promote authentic Catholic life and practice. That, I am sure of. We have withstood all kinds of persecution from within and without. God is faithful. Jesus is Lord. Mary is our Mother. Saint Joseph protects us. We have a Holy Father in Rome.