Fr. Pfleger, after “apology”, restates he wants ordination of women priests, bishops

Dear Card. George.. Your Eminence… I have respect for you and your office.

Therefore, Your Eminence, WDTPRS asks with respect: "When will enough be enough when it comes to Fr. Pfleger?"

From Lifesite, with my incredulity… er um emphases and comments.

Fr. Pfleger on Apology: They Made Me Do it, But I Didn’t Mean it

By Patrick B. Craine

CHICAGO, Illinois, April 16, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) – In the latest episode in an ongoing controversy, Fr. Michael Pfleger has again publicly voiced his support for women’s ordination, this time in a comment posted to his Facebook fan page.  In that comment, he also notes that the archdiocese made him issue the apology he put out on Wednesday.

“Sunday, I mentioned in my Sermon that I believe in married Priests and Woman Priests,” the Facebook comment reads.  “I was then told that I had to apologize for saying it durning [sic] a Sermon because that is not allowed, [NB:] even though that is my opinion. [He really believes that women should be ordained.]

“I have received much hate from the right-winged who want my removal,” he added. [It is not "hate" to hope that the Black Catholic community in Chicago might have a Catholic priest who is actually faithful to the Church’s teachings and disciplines.]  “Amazing… Nobody Blogged me or youtubed me about helping Save our children or Stopping the Violence…” [Those are not the immediate issues.]

His comment follows a Wednesday statement published on the Archdiocese of Chicago’s website, which has since been removed. [Really?  Why? Because it was dishonest?] In the statement he admits that he advocated for women priests and bishops in his homily, but then says that, “While this is my personal opinion, I do respect and follow the Catholic Church teachings and I am sorry I failed to do this.”

Pfleger’s Sunday homily had been posted to the website of his parish, Saint Sabina’s Catholic Church, and the 30-second clip in which he made the controversial remarks quickly made it onto Youtube.  The homily and Fr. Pfleger’s call for women’s ordination remained posted on the parish website as of press time.

According to Diogenes of CatholicCulture.org, Pfleger’s apology “won’t do.” [Diogenes is not alone.]

“If you ‘respect and follow the Catholic Church teachings,’ you don’t hold a ‘personal opinion’ completely at odds with those teachings,” the pundit wrote yesterday.  “If you respect the teachings of the Church regarding priestly ministry, you don’t use the pulpit to advance a ‘personal opinion’ of any kind, let alone an opinion critical of the Church.”

“Based on the statement above, would you say that Father Pfleger understands, accepts, and submits to the authority of the magisterium?” he asks.  “No. Do you think Cardinal George has the intelligence to reach the same conclusion? Yes. Will the cardinal allow a priest who disregards Church authority to remain in place as a pastor? Wait and see.

Calls and an e-mail to the Archdiocese of Chicago were not returned by press time.  LSN also did not hear back from Fr. Pfleger by press time.

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108 Responses to Fr. Pfleger, after “apology”, restates he wants ordination of women priests, bishops

  1. Salvatore_Giuseppe says:

    Fr. Pfleger has been around long enough to realize that nobody has blogged about his work for ending violence in Chicago and elsewhere is because these are things we would reasonably expect a Priest to do, especially in an area as plagued as his is.

    For that part, he has done a great job

    However, what blogs will cover is when priests or other people in positions of power advocate against the Church they claim to serve, repeatedly and obstinately.

    As much as I hope Cardinal George takes action against Fr. Pfleger for this, I am still hoping even more that he will take action in the cases of grave abuses of the Mass regarding Father’s improvised “Eucharistic prayers”

  2. Theodorus says:

    This wolf in shepherd’s clothing labeled orthodox Catholics as “right-winged”. Sadly his mindset is wholly political. We are either faithful or unfaithful, and it is quite meaningless to talk about right or left.

  3. Massachusetts Catholic says:

    Thank you, Fr. Z, for keeping this in the spotlight. I hope the archdiocese of Chicago will take some action if this stays in the news. Is there any real hope that officials at the Vatican might put pressure on American prelates to rein in some of these priests who commit public scandal? (I can think of one or two in Boston, on the internet and on the radio.)

  4. Vincenzo says:

    EWTN/World Over is covering Fr. Pfleger’s award and his “endorsement of female ordination” and is showing the homily clip now..

  5. Denise says:

    Fr. Pfleger’s woefully inadequate “apology” is still on the archdiocese of Chicago web site. It is no longer on the front page, but if you scroll down you can find a link to it. The fact that Fr. Pfleger posted his sneering facebook response after his “apology” was published emphasizes how much disdain he has for Church authority.

  6. JimGB says:

    Like many others who have been outraged by Pfleger’s conduct, both in his open and notorious associations with hate-spewing nut jobs like Wright and Farrakan and his grave abuses of the liturgy, I sent an e-mail to Cardinal George urging him to take action. No response as yet. Since I do not live in Chicago, I can’t vote with my feet (or wallet), but I am considering limiting my contributions to my local parish and diocese (which is led by a man whom I am certain would not suffer Pfleger for long), and not contributing to any collection related to the USCCB. Pfleger’s M.O. is to brazenly give his middle finger to anyone who challenges him. Maybe if the USCCB’s collections decreased the Bishops would have the fortitude to address the Pflegers, the dissident nuns, etc.

  7. I don’t care if he’s a “heretic” by canonical standards (pace: a previous post) or just a heretical priest…he’s got to go.
    Who cares if he meets the “standards” of a canonical trial?
    He’s a disgrace to the priesthood and the Archdiocese of Chicago, as well as the universal Church.
    This does not surprise me, atall. Boot him, Card. George. Please. For all that is good, true and holy. Boot him.

  8. MWindsor says:

    Not a thing will happen. Catholic teaching is rendered meaningless when this is the example set by a cardinal. Truly depressing week…I’m getting a bit too jaded…

  9. rroan says:

    Nothing will happen. Cardinal George doesn’t want the bad racialist PR that would inevitably result if he disciplined Fr. Pfleger in any way.

    He gave Fr. Pfleger an honorable out and he spat in his face.

  10. JonM says:

    We have to appreciate (not support or like, but appreciate) something about Father Pfleger: he is totally persistent.

    If only Bishops so jealously guarded the faith and its Traditions. And especially Christ in the Sacrament.

    As I wrote in one of the other posts documenting this tragic saga, Father Pfleger could convert China (maybe even Europe) if he were formed in the TLM, orthodox theology, etc.

    I see in him the vigor, confidence, and passion that is often lacking in the Church. It is a true tragedy that he has never been corrected by Bishops and has in fact been egged on with the truly insane rewarding of him.

  11. catholicmidwest says:

    JonM,

    Persistence in itself isn’t necessarily a good thing. Stalin was persistent.

  12. JonM says:

    Persistence in itself isn’t necessarily a good thing. Stalin was persistent.

    Absolutely. I just meant that we have to appreciate the quality, that is to say correctly assess it (e.g., its strength, nature of the characteristic, etc.)

    Frankly, I’m not sure if his persistence (obstinacy) in under-appreciated, or if those who have been in a position to correct the priest just don’t care.

  13. TJerome says:

    I’m glad EWTN is carrying this. Mother Angelica clipped little Roger “Dodger” Mahony’s wings and maybe it’s time for Cardinal George to get the same treatment. I will write tomorrow when I’m better rested and less angry to tell George what a limpwristed, cowardly animal he is. If he wants to act like a “go along to get along type” maybe he should be a greater at Walmart rather than a Prince of the Church.

  14. TJerome says:

    If Cardinal George was an astute businessman he would do a cost-benefit analysis of the situation. Let’s see, if I protect, left-wing loon heretic, white hating Pfleger then fake Catholics who could care less about the Church will love me (all 1000 of them). If I go after Pfleger and suspend him I will have the support of hundreds of thousands of faithful Catholics who love the Church. What should I do?

  15. TJerome says:

    Last comment. Suppress St. Sabina’s. The folks there are marginally Catholic at best. Bishop Perry, who is African-American, unlike Pfleger, celebrates Mass in Latin and is orthodox. The Church should ensure that he is the next Cardinal-Archbishop of Chicago because he is proof positive to the world that inculturation is just another manifestation of liberal, white guilt and pure crap. Strange, before we had “inculturation” people from diverse cultures became Catholic and accepted its Latin liturgy.

  16. Sedgwick says:

    You want to read something even more tragic than this priest who thinks his narcissistic opinions are magisterial? Read the 73 comments from his adoring “Catholic” fans.

  17. John 6:54 says:

    I understand forgiving and redemption but for either to happen the sinner must turn away from sin. What I don’t understand is the Church’s constant toleration of “heresy” within its own ranks. Priest like Fr. P need to be sent to the monestary for a long period of time to read up on what the Catholic faith is all about. Christ is looking for our obedience so we can live freely with him in eternity.

  18. DdC says:

    Father,

    We caught the apology late Weds right after it was posted. Put up the story on AlwaysCatholic.com while all were sleeping. CMR put us up on Reader with it & we got bombed with hits & now we are down! Hah! We are working with the hosting company to hurry and get us upgraded and to figure out why we cant get back up.
    Had an inside source tip us off early. We gave out Cardinal George office phone number and fax and aks readers to call him and tell him we were praying for the salvation of his soul since he obviously didnt give a fig about it and that he (George ) was complicit in leading souls into error. ahem, yes I was on a rant.

    Went down with an hour after CmReport posted it. My inside in Chicago says phone, faxes & emails flooded Archdiocese withing time after the post. Im not sayin it was just us, Im saying that all of us who are taking the gloves off now to defend Holy Mother Church are finally getting a response from the pews! Deo Gratias.

    Keep us in your prayers that we get back up this weekend. Lots of time for witing about Alinsky & CCHD (squealing in delight), time to make lemonade out of these lemons!!

    God Love You! You have been a inspiration & we are grateful for the podcasts of the Rosary and the Breviary-we’re praying with you.

    Comment by TJerome above: you are absolutely correct! Have had a private Mass in Latin with several priests and Religious with Bishop Perry.It was magnificent!

  19. Stephen Hand says:

    Your eminence, while you’re on here, please buy Father Z an espresso, and get him something from his amazon wishlist, it’s the least you could do for of all the help he’s giving you in being Archbishop of Chicago.

    Sheesh, such armchair quarterbacking. I thought that priests had day jobs.

    *sigh* oh and when will people learn that western European culture is the pinnacle of human civilization and necessary for the reception of divine grace?

  20. idatom says:

    Fr. Z.;

    Is Rome connected to the Internet?

    Tom Lanter

  21. Servant of the Liturgy says:

    Disregarding Mr. Hand’s ludicrous-ness above…
    I would like to note the blue chasuble Fr. Pfleger is wearing in his Facebook profile picture.
    That is all.

    …For now…

  22. Servant of the Liturgy says:

    Wait, I have more:
    Prayers for Cdl. George as well as Fr. Pleger. Please, join me.

  23. ipadre says:

    Luke 17:2 – Poor soul!

  24. deborah-anne says:

    I pray that this man will be dispensed from the mandate to preach and say public mass. To do anything less, will prove more harmful. Pray that God provides Card. George courage enough to do His will. Is there no end to the turbulence?

  25. Stephen Hand: What is up?
    Louis Farrakhan and Rev. B. Wright are now supposed to be spiritual leaders for us? Apart from the liturgical abuses and promotion of women’s ordination (which are Catholic issues), you are supporting these two with Rev. Pfleger (which are human rights/dignity issues)?
    I mean, really?

  26. Read the comments on Facebook. I’m not impressed. Looked at St. Sabina’s website. I’m not impressed.
    This is liberation theology gone wild. It’s not Catholic in any way, shape, or form.
    This outburst from the Rev. Pf. is just the tip of the iceberg.
    I’m no expert; I’ve studied the social teachings of the Catholic Church via the Papal encyclicals.
    Racism in any form is a sin.
    But this is just absurd. Hating white people is not the answer. And being disobedient to the norms of the Catholic Church when one makes their livelihood from it is wrong.

  27. JonM says:

    @ TJ

    Yes, I second installing Bishop Perry as Archbishop precisely for the reasons you lay out: he is orthodox, loves our beautiful patrimony, and is living proof of what inculturation is. And how well you put it!

    I want to add something to this, while on the issue of inculturation. I have always found it to be repelling and embarrassing and most of all supremely demeaning to the targeted audience. It takes this perspective that the intended community cannot handle the normal method (i.e. it is too stuck in its ways) so the Great White Man must dumb it down.

    In many ways, inculturation’s worst incarnation is not even racial or ethnic: rather it is the absurd and horrifying ‘cool Catholicism’ directed to young people. As a new Catholic who happens to be in his mid 20s, I can think of nothing more offensive, I guess except for committing sacrilege.

    Sorry for the rabbit hole!

  28. JonM: I believe you hit the nail on the head.
    For us “old foggies” over the age of 50, we remember all this claptrap, even if we were ‘wee babes’ in the ’60s. This is a time warp come to a head in a most horrendous way. Fr. Pf may indeed be very concerned with ‘race relations’ and the crime problems and the whole inner-city complexities. However.
    This is not the answer. You are correct.
    Inculturation, unfortunately, in the sense of this country has to do with integrating all kinds of insanity into our life and worship as Catholics.
    Progress for all of us doesn’t mean hanging onto the ’60s. It means moving on with the universal and eternal truths of our Faith. This is Latin Rite Catholicism; we need to express this in a universal way.

  29. Hidden One says:

    Dear Fr. Pfleger:

    If you refuse to recant, you should be removed.

    Sincerely,
    Not-a-right-winger.

  30. EXCHIEF says:

    He should be the first of many to go…far away, and quickly.

  31. sejoga says:

    The thing I find most disgusting is the constant misdirection of the faithful by the critics of the Church (even by those critics from within, like Pfleger). Just a few days ago when the Holy Father issued a statement on the Polish president’s (and others’) death, the media said, “Look! Benedict is AVOIDING the abuse issue!” as if to speak on ANY subject other than the one most important to the critics is proof positive of corruption, out-of-touch-ness, etc. etc.

    Now Pfleger, rather than acknowledging that 1) Yes, in fact, he uses his position in the Church to teach heresy, and 2) Yes, in fact, he commits atrocities during the liturgy of the Eucharist that have no place in the mass — he simply points to something WHOLLY unrelated to the issue and blames US for some kind of “narrow-mindedness” or something.

    It’s especially pernicious since, if Pfleger REALLY thought these things were less important than the other issues, HE WOULDN’T BOTHER TO COMMIT THE ABUSES IN THE FIRST PLACE. If “Save our children or Stopping the Violence” are issues that are truly more important to Pfleger than the mass, why would he consciously, deliberately, and spitefully reinvent the Eucharistic prayer? Wouldn’t it be simpler and easier to just rush over it and keep it the way it is, since it’s allegedly not the focus of his ministry?

    The real problem is that these abuses are INTEGRAL to his interpretation of the faith, and rather than simply admitting that what he believes and practices is in open defiance of the Church–which is what he would do, if he actually had the courage of his convictions–he just implicitly makes it clear that that’s what he’s doing while explicitly blaming his critics for their so-called “lack of charity”.

  32. Semper Idem says:

    He associates himself with Louis Farrakhan?

    Really?

    Really?

  33. Vincenzo says:

    He associates himself with Louis Farrakhan?

    Really?

    Really?

    click here

  34. Maltese says:

    Methinks some of you need to pull your panties out of your cracks!

    Gosh! You would think this one priest, from some of your comments, committed one of the Seven deadly sins, or Four that cry out for vengeance!

    Truthfully, this is a sadly lost man caught-up in the “spirit of Vatican II.”

    So, instead of belittling the man, inform him!

    I know and you know he is ridiculous, but use your words wisely in elucidating such, otherwise you make this blog a yellow rag.

  35. JonM says:

    I want to correct a mistake in my previous post. I wrote, on Bishop Perry, “he is orthodox, loves our beautiful patrimony, and is living proof of what inculturation is.”

    I mean to write “…and is totally unnecessary…”

    Running for US Congress, prepping mailing lists, and eating while following the Fr. Pfleger saga is fertile ground for errors in typing!

  36. JonM says:

    @Maltese,

    I agree he needs to be informed. But most of us are laymen and not even in his parish or diocese. It is clearly the role of his Bishop to correct him; talk to him about the faith, send him to monestary, or at a last resort laicize him.

    But I agree, and have written, we can’t pick on him. I truly believe he doesn’t understand and thinks he is doing Christ’s will. Since the heirarchy probably won’t do anything or will just ‘let him go,’ perhaps we should all write well-reasoned and charitable letters to him.

    I would much prefer him transformed rather than simply excommunicated. But we have to be realistic: will the Archdiocese try to re-educate him?

    Anyone have thoughts on this?

  37. Norah says:

    To Dissenting Priests

    “It is your duty to fix the lines (of doctrine) clearly in your minds: and if you wish to go beyond them you must change your profession. This is your duty not specially as Christians or as priests but as honest men. There is a danger here of the clergy developing a special professional conscience which obscures the very plain moral issue. Men who have passed beyond these boundary lines in either direction are apt to protest that they have come by their unorthodox opinions honestly. In defense of those opinions they are prepared to suffer obloquy and to forfeit professional advancement. They thus come to feel like martyrs. But this simply misses the point which so gravely scandalizes the layman. We never doubted that the unorthodox opinions were honestly held: what we complain of is your continuing in your ministry after you have come to hold them. We always knew that a man who makes his living as a paid agent of the Conservative Party may honestly change his views and honestly become a Communist. What we deny is that he can honestly continue to be a Conservative agent and to receive money from one party while he supports the policy of the other.”

    –from Christian Apologetics by C.S. Lewis, Easter 1945.
    (Reprinted in God in the Dock pp. 89-90)

  38. openmind says:

    I admit that, in the realm of politics and public policy, I am very liberal. But when it comes to faith and religion, I am a firm believer in orthodoxy. How can Father Pfleger claim to be a Catholic if he doesn’t believe in Catholic teaching? How can he serve as a priest if he publicly dissents from the teaching of the Church? If there is an area between material and formal heresy, Father Pfleger has made that his home.

    Clerical celibacy, I can understand. It’s a discipline, not a dogma. But female ordination is another thing. “Roma locuta est, causa finita est.” I emailed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, begging and pleading for them to do something about this. Hopefully, they will listen. If not, maybe Pfleger will convert to the Episcopalians or Lutherans.

  39. janek3615 says:

    The problem was Father Pfleger. The problem now is His Eminence, Francis Cardinal George. It has become a greater scandal under his lack of fortitude in this matter. Pfleger is a loud-mouthed, undisciplined thug who needs a boot out of his parish and the priesthood.

  40. Defrock the guy…As an african american, none of this Liberation Theology is appealing to me at all, Apparently we’re too stupid to handle real Liturgy…

  41. Patrick J. says:

    This is Rev. Fr. George Augustus Stallings (Fr. Bruce Greening, et al, Imani Temple, et al, – as I have known these men) all over again. Nothing new. These priests, talented, charismatic and effective in one way – in the end, really are not Catholic, as they do not believe in the fullness of the Catholic faith, and would be more at home leading Protestant congregations, where they can fully bask in the glory due THEM, and thereby have to answer to no man, as in the end, it is about THEM, as they have come to believe their own press, so to speak. This is a little bit more, I would say, than Vatican II gone a little overboard, Mr. Malta, as much as I often agree with you. I would not say that he is beyond redemption, but his ego is out of control. I have worked in inner city parishes, for many years, and this is just nuts. This man is a Democratic party (or Socialist?) shill. When you invite pro-abortion advocates to your church as role models, over and over, when you avoid calling Mass “Mass,” and instead, “service,” as if you are ashamed, when you have more in common with Louis Farrakan than your own bishop, well, this is just bizzarro land.

    Pleger is more a caricature than the others, as he THINKS he is black. This looks to be some form of self loathing. There is an element of patronizing of blacks in all of this, as he seems to think blacks will only understand him if he uses a pseudo Southern drawl and speaks ebonics.

    Politics, for some, sadly, IS their religion. Let us find the guts to first pray for his soul, and then confront this affront to the true (and no, Mr. Hand, not Western European – the Ethiopians would not tolerate this, nor the Coptics, nor the Chinese, the Greeks, the Chaldeans, the Maronites, any Orthodox) Catholic Faith.

  42. Kerry says:

    “I’m sorry if anyone misunderstood what I apologized about being sorry for regretting what I may have miscommunicated, but I did mean what I said, just not in the way it sounded, and if you’re still mixed up about what I said, I’m also very sorry that you just can’t see things my way, but they made me say so.”

  43. Eilis says:

    The very same thing happened in my diocese a few years ago. A priest preached in favour of same sex marriage. The bishop went to two parishes where the priest had spoken on the subject to correct what had been said. The priest then said publicly that he would no longer comment on the matter but that he had not changed his mind. He was then elevated to president of the priests’ council. The priest is still active. Not long ago he denied Communion to a kneeling communicant.

  44. Jim of Bowie says:

    His web site is really creepy. It is worse than Stallings. My first impression was Jim Jones. It is very cult-like.

  45. bookworm says:

    “Bishop Perry, who is African-American, unlike Pfleger, celebrates Mass in Latin and is orthodox.”

    There is also in Chicago a well-known Black Baptist minister, Rev. James Meeks, who serves as a state legislator. Yes, he’s a Democrat, BUT he’s also pro-life and against gay marriage — in fact, he’s probably more Catholic than Pfleger at least on those issues! He proves that you don’t have to be a pro-abort liberal to have “street cred.”

    Pfleger and his pfans’ constant insistence that living in a violent gang-ridden neighborhood where kids get killed all the time somehow justifies preaching heresy and conducting invalid liturgies is nothing more than a clerical version of the “Chewbacca defense.”

  46. bookworm says:

    Also, if anyone from the Congregation for Bishops is reading this: as good as Bp. Perry would be for my diocese (Springfield in Ill.), DON’T send him here — keep him in Chicago and make him Cdl. George’s coadjutor, STAT!

  47. frjim4321 says:

    Don’t know Fr. Pfleger at all but from the video and the website what bothers me is the cult of personality that has grown up around him. Like with Maciel, the cultic figure becomes larger than life and obscures the true central figure of the faith. I can certainly see holding opinions about the ordination of married and single women and men but can’t see any possible good that would come from a priest spouting personal opinions from the pulpit. Whatever happened to preaching on the scriptures or the liturgy. (This also extends to Bp. Dolan using a homily to provide cover for the pope in the current situation; a homily should be a homily and not a grandstand for personal opinions and politcal posturing.) Another example: take a priest/pastor with grave objections around the prospective imposition of a new Roman Missal translation. What good would it do for him to express those grave objections to his people? It only serves the ego of the priest, and does nothing constructive for the assembly. Fr. Jim

  48. Penguins Fan says:

    Cardinal George is, in my opinion, typical of most American bishops. He is a good and holy man, but timid in the face of a challenge. Reverend Pfleger should have been removed from the active priesthood long ago.

    Twice I have been to Chicago on business and attended daily Mass at Holy Name Cathedral. I was stunned at the wreckovation done there. the cathedral had ugly abstract stained glass windows, bizarre “art”, etc. This was not done by an orthodox Catholic leadership.

    I remember the entire George Stallings episode. I was working in DC when Stallings started his Imani Temple. Cardinal Hickey warned Stallings not to do it, and proptly excommunicated Stallings after he did it. The Washington Com-Post – Hell’s Bible in Cliffs Notes form – made a big deal about it for a day or two and then it was forgotten.

    Not long ago, then-Bishop Wuerl dealt swiftly and decisively with the recalcitrant James Hausen, a former Catholic priest from the parish in Sweickley, PA. Hausen blabbed his big mouth about favoring letting priests marry and other such drivel. Wuerl isn’t the most orthodox of bishops and never will be but he doesn’t tolerate priests who act like Hausen did – nor did he tolerate priests accused of abuse. Hausen was removed from the active priesthood and lost his salary, pension and health benefits.

    Unlike Cardinal George, then-Bishop Wuerl did not have to deal with the race issue when dealing with Hausen, but Hickey did and being swift and sure was the key to resolving the problem. Otherwise it festers.

  49. FranzJosf says:

    Pope John Paul II wrote that it is to be definitively held by all Catholics that the Church has no power whatsoever to ordain women. Does ‘definitively’ make those words an infallible teaching? It is said (yes, hearsay) that Cardinal Ratzinger believed it to be an infallible teaching. I wish the powers that be would let us know definitively. If it is an infallible teaching, there could be no question of removing this guy or priests like him. IF the bishops could bring themselves to do it.

  50. frjim4321 says:

    Would like to add that if bishops removed every priest that was eccentric or for whom some people held much dislike we might not have many left to labor in the vineyard. A look in the mirror might assist in demonstrating the truth of this reality. Fr. Jim

  51. catholicmidwest says:

    Many of our bishops are very, very left-wing politically. The fact is that they can’t resist jumping on the racial bandwagon and trying to score points. It’s ridiculous. I’m always amazed how fast some of these people are to jetison the good of the church for their own political views.

    This has precedent of course. It’s a recurrent plague in the church. It usually is presented as, “interpreting the signs of the age,” to quote the forward to a “programmatic little book” entitled “Razing the Bastions.” And it almost always looks ridiculous in hindsight.

  52. catholicmidwest says:

    Fr Jim,

    Called the “black & white fallacy” in logic. No pun intended. Making all undesirable views the same view, so that discernment cannot be made between them is a classical rhetorical technique and it rests on a very serious logical fallacy.

    The fact is that some things are worse than others, just as some things are better than others. If you deny that, then you would have to say that you’d just as soon get stepped on by an elephant as get stepped on by a mite, and you’d have no favorite foods. That would make you one peculiar person indeed. And a very frightened one since the world is full of mites.

    Pfleger is at the bottom of the barrel and Cardinal George is either semi-consciously negligent, out of his mind, or pandering to someone or something in hopes of getting some points somehow.

  53. TJerome says:

    “Would like to add that if bishops removed every priest that was eccentric or for whom some people held much dislike we might not have many left to labor in the vineyard. ”

    I respectfully disagree. It would probably take only one or two instances and the pastors would fall into line. From what I see of most pastors there does not seem to be the “martyr” spirit in many of them.

  54. irishgirl says:

    Something’s got to be done about this guy-I hate seeing this fester!

  55. meisterlowin says:

    It seems incomprehensible to me that such blatant defiance…well, it’s just unbelievable.

  56. Gail F says:

    I feel sorry for Cardinal George. It would be very difficult to deal with this man, just as it’s always difficult to deal with a problem that you have let get worse and worse for a long time. Father Pf would rightly feel that any censure of him was unfair after he has been allowed to go on this way for years, and after he just got that big award with an introduction by Cardinal George! That said, the Cardinal should certainly do something. Allowing it to continue cannot make things better, they will just get worse.

    Fr. Pf reminds me of a UCC pastor I heard speak in my neighborhood on MLK day a few years ago. The UCC is very radical and their new cause seems to be “gay rights” so we heard plenty about that, but mostly he spoke to our mixed-race crowd, which included a large number of urban black people, about race and how bad white people are. This pastor, who is white and was active in the Civil Rights movement, could not say enough bad things about white people. It was a sort of orgy of self-loathing. As a 40-year-old white woman, sitting in the middle of a crowd that was half white, I was a little stunned by the whole thing. I wanted to ask him if he noticed that this was an interracial crowd of NEIGHBORS? That we live together and work together? That the Civil Rights movement was 50 years ago and not now? That much of the problems of the poorest black communities have nothing to do with white people? Sure, there are racial problems in our neighborhood — and they really do need to be addressed and solved. But they are different problems than they were 50 years ago and they need a different approach and different solutions.

    Those of you who do not live in a mixed-income, mixed-race community may not realize what some of the problems like are from the “inside.” A lot of white pastors, trying to help, go the way of this UCC guy and Fr. Pf, and they can get pretty worked up about it. That doesn’t mean that they don’t also accomplish important things, and perhaps Fr. Pf has done a lot to help his community. But that is completely different from his Catholic orthodoxy, and Cardinal George ought to tell him so.

  57. Girgadis says:

    Father Z

    I know that you are sincere when you say that you respect Cardinal George and his office. One of your frequent commenters, who has a penchant for the terms “left-wing loons” and “fake Catholics”, wrote that he would like to tell Cardinal George “what a limpwristed, cowardly animal he is.” This is your blog, obviously, and it’s not my place to tell you what to do or for me to act as some kind of hall monitor. But I don’t see how allowing that sort of angry personal attack on a man of God without a word of caution or admonition demonstrates that you have respect for the Cardinal or his office. This is your blog, and I recognize that it’s 100% your call whether you want to ban someone, including me, or censor their comments. But I feel compelled to speak up just the same. Our bishops have their hands full with external attacks on the Church. They don’t need to be torn down from within.

  58. catholicmidwest says:

    I don’t feel sorry for Cardinal George. Some of the problems he has he creates for himself.

    Pay now or pay later. It’s a very simple principle.

  59. mpm says:

    This also extends to Bp. Dolan using a homily to provide cover for the pope in the current situation; a homily should be a homily and not a grandstand for personal opinions and politcal posturing.

    Fr. Jim,

    As a factual matter, I read that Archbishop Dolan took some time after Mass was over, but before he left the sanctuary, to make his remarks about the Pope and his attackers. That is often done for “announcements” as my experience tells me, even about such trivia as “cake sales” and “bingo”. In other words, SOP.

    NEW YORK, MARCH 29, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York brought hearty approval from a standing-room-only crowd at St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Palm Sunday when he defended Benedict XVI against “unrelenting insinuations” in the scandals of sexual abuse.
    The archbishop asked the congregation for a couple of minutes of patience at the end of the lengthy Mass, and then said the “somberness of Holy Week is intensified for Catholics this year” by a “tidal wave of headlines about abuse of minors by some few priests, this time in Ireland, Germany, and a re-run of an old story from Wisconsin.” Etc.

  60. catholicmidwest says:

    TJerome,
    You said, “I respectfully disagree. It would probably take only one or two instances and the pastors would fall into line. From what I see of most pastors there does not seem to be the “martyr” spirit in many of them.”

    I agree with you. The point here is not to examine the every thought and twitch of every priest in existence, not at all. [Their own spiritual well-being is between them, the church who they are party to in a special way, and the Almighty. That is none of my business but their behavior in public is!]

    In keeping with that, the POINT is to get them to behave and perform the function of their vocation which is to preach and administer with fidelity to the church, who sponsors them. The laity have a right to that, according to canon law and justice.

    Bishops have every right and responsibility to keep priests in their dioceses, who act as their proxies, under control with regards to tradition and fidelity. Priests know this well; some of them don’t like it but they know it well. All a bishop would have to do is remove one or two publicly and the rest will fall into line. Guaranteed. Why doesn’t this happen in more places??? That is the question.

  61. JonM says:

    Pay now or pay later. It’s a very simple principle.

    CatholicMidwest, you just identified a broader problem we have been dealing with in post World War II (esp. post 1960) society in general.

    Like the last 30 years of unreal debt creation in the United States, liberal Bishops have let problems metastisize so that the next generation would have to make the tough actions, thereby looking like the ‘bad guys’ and the ones who ‘failed.’

    I still expect absolutely nothing to happen, so that is why I am working on a letter to Fr. Pfleger and think we all should. Charitable, respectful, and inclusive of the good things he has done. He just needs to have his paradigm shifted (e.g., you can be opposed to unfair applications of criminal justice and a fervent TLM devotee and totally given to the utmost respect of the Eucharist.)

  62. poohbear says:

    Would like to add that if bishops removed every priest that was eccentric or for whom some people held much dislike we might not have many left to labor in the vineyard. A look in the mirror might assist in demonstrating the truth of this reality. Fr. Jim
    Comment by frjim4321 — 17 April 2010 @ 8:08 am

    This issue has nothing to do with like or dislike, but with teaching the truth. I, for one, would rather have fewer priests if it meant getting rid of the dissenters. And, I think, by getting rid of the dissenters, more orthodox men would step up to the calling to the priesthood.

    BTW, Fr Jim, are you really a priest, or do you just play one on blogs?

  63. wanda says:

    I don’t think there will be too many questions left in anyone’s mind about this Priest. Go to Catholic Vote Action web-site this morning. New video of Fr. Pfleger saying that he doesn’t need the Cardinal or the Pope.

    This priest’s time is up. I still pray for him, the Cardinal and for the congregation that this man is leading astray.

  64. Random Friar says:

    I agree with Gail F. What happens is that ego and narcissism get mixed up with a guy with a good heart that sees a good and ignores all others in his quixotic quest. “But… but… I’m doing good, right?” is the standard defense. Yes, Father, perhaps you are doing some good. It may even be noble, in a sense. But you cannot ignore other, greater goods. You cannot ignore the Faith. Love of neighbor does not mean you can do anything you want to try to alleviate his suffering. And then when you see yourself as the only guy leading this charge… well, the ego gets puffed up a little as well, and it becomes harder to separate good from self.

    I know *many* parishioners dislike that we religious tend to move around, but at least it helps dissuade these cults of personality. We move, not just to spread the Gospel around, but also to keep the people rooted in Christ and not in ourselves. And perhaps we do it for our own sakes as well.

  65. Henry Edwards says:

    Perhaps the personal criticism directed at Cardinal George is a bit sharp. I wonder whether the archbishop of such a large and complex archdiocese — especially one never really known as a hands-on administrator — really has much to do directly with personnel matters, assignments and awards like this.

    At any rate, it seems to me from afar that Cardinal George is sometimes “set up” by an entrenched bureacracy that dates back to his predecessor, and indeed from whom many of his problems like the present one were inherited.

  66. Maltese says:

    Joe: none of this Liberation Theology is appealing to me at all, Apparently we’re too stupid to handle real Liturgy

    Me either! The Traditional Latin Mass was used–to use just one example–to convert millions of Native Americans to the True Faith. The steely resolve and bravery of those pre-Vatican II Friars (think, The Black Robe) converted millions with the beauty of an ancient rite; pussyfooting around with syncretism, relativism, and indifferentism as well as post-Vatican II ecumaniacal-obsession with all things non-Catholic, has gotten us nowhere!

  67. mpm says:

    Random Friar,

    Thank you for your post. It is a very sound reason. If we know that’s why you “disappear” from time to time, it can only lead us to thank God for the sincerity of your vocations.

    Is that why your avatar is “Random” Friar?

  68. ckdexterhaven says:

    The fans’ comments on his Facebook page are telling. They are full of praise for Pfleger, but short on praise (or even mention) of The Lord. They like what Pfleger has to say, and it’s just not fair that he has to follow that mean old Pope, who is stuck in the past.

    Father Pfleger should look up that old Proverb about Pride. It’s not one of the Deadly Sins for nothing…

  69. Scott W. says:

    Amazing… Nobody Blogged me or youtubed me about helping Save our children or Stopping the Violence…”

    This is what has been coined “Reign of God” theology that Rich Leonardi talks about on his blog. Essentially, it means building the kingdom of God though establishing social justicice, protecting the environment, etc. is so important that correct teaching is a trivial matter. In simple terms, it’s changing the subject. We saw the same thing in the scandal at St. Francis Xavier church in New York were the defenders of their gay outreach program appealed to all the good the parish does. That’s fine, but one cannot pile up a bunch of good works on one end of the scale and think it balances out fudging on binding Church teaching on the other.

  70. Fr_Sotelo says:

    poohbear:

    It is not necessary to accuse Fr. Jim of “playing” a priest on blogs just because he offers an opinion you don’t like. btw, I don’t play priest either–I can be found in the Kenedy directory under diocese of Fresno, St. Columba Church. I agree that if Cardinal George removies Pfleger, he will also have to remove the rest of the Chicago clergy who openly dissent from Catholic orthodoxy, but may not be techno-savvy enough to post their dissent on Youtube or Facebook.

    As another poster stated, these priests are quite enthusiastic and persistent. They could bring the Cardinal down right now if they wanted. Remember, pastors control purse strings. The archdiocese needs money to run–it cannot run on pure air. If a bishop wants to fight the pastors as they close the purses, fine, let him be Bishop of Scranton Part II.

    I agree with all the righteous anger here about dissenting priests but this is a long legacy from previous archbishops and the Paul VI and John Paul II permissiveness which has floated in the Church for 40 years. Please be patient with Cardinal George (and pray for him with charity and concern) as he deals with this. Don’t place unrealistic expectations on lightning speed action when previous archbishops and even Roman Pontiffs allowed these problems to fester for years.

  71. Johannisbrot says:

    Fr Pfleger’s invalid consecration

    Turn up the volume on the Pfleger video of his eucharistic prayer, skipping to the “consecration” of the bread, from 1.40–1.52 seconds to compare his pronunciation of BODY and LIFE.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjMWbQ7UXOE

    He does not say: “This is my body”. He clearly says: “This is my LIFE”.

    There are grave penalties for such abuse.

    Medicinal penalties.

    There is proof.

    If Cardinal George may merely be dismayed at ambiguous apologies, will he not have to act on this?

    It’s much easier if someone from Chicago gets the ball rolling. That’s just the way it is.

    I’m not from Chicago.

    Is there anyone from Chicago reading this blog who can put together a note to the Cardinal with your signed concern and a correctly transcribed link to the YouTube video?

    Use the Z tips for your letter:

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/tips-for-writing-to-bishops-and-to-the-pc-ecclesia-dei/

    Say a prayer for all involved.

  72. Johannisbrot says:

    By the way, someone ought also to copy those videos before they disappear from YouTube, save them to a bunch of formats, on DVD, usable even, say, at the Congregation for the Clergy, and the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Did I miss any? I don’t know how to do all this, but I’m sure someone out there can do this easily and efficiently and send it along to those who need to see it. God bless the efforts.

  73. robtbrown says:

    Fr Sotelo,

    Good stuff.

    There are some good people here who I’m afraid are naive about the situation in Chicago. If Fr Pfleger were in a diocese like Lincoln or even New York, the ordinary could easily remove him.

    I would like to remind everyone that when Chicago opened up, the job was turned down by at least 5 bishops, who knew that the mess that Cardinal Bernardin left was such that fixing it would take many long years.

    From what I understand, Cardinal George has made great strides in Chicago, but there’s a long, long way to go.

  74. We must pray for Cardinal George. He is a good and holy man and will do his best with this difficulty.

    For those proposing that Bp. Perry would fix everything…keep in mind that Bp. Perry is the Episcopal Vicar for the Vicariate VI which happens to contain St. Sabina. Also, Bp. Perry accepted an award at the same ceremony as Fr. Pfleger. I would think that if he was as “hardline” as some here suggest, he would have refused such an award given alongside Fr. Pfleger.

    Also, to the poster above commenting on the wreckovation (yes, it is awful) of Holy Name Cathedral: that was accomplished under Cardinal Cody who was well-known for being rather conservative and very orthodox.

    Fr. Sotelo…great post!

  75. My apologies if this was posted before, but it’s worth reading:

    Cardinal George’s Reflection Delivered at the
    Dr. King Prayer Service and Racial Justice Awards
    April 7, 2010

    “For it was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”

    How can we see something not yet here? We must look with eyes filled with love. “Because we know that in all things, God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.”

    If we look with eyes filled with God’s love, then we see all those whom he loves, for God’s love is universal. Those who give themselves to working for racial justice in the Church and the world dedicate themselves to seeing that the reach of God’s love is reflected in the way we treat each other across racial and cultural divides. The temptation can be to work for justice apart from love, but then justice becomes itself a formula for oppression. Justice without love is destructive, as Marxist societies, founded on equality and social justice alone, teach the world.

    The awardees this evening are here because they love beyond racial and cultural divides. This is true for all—for Bishop Perry, Michael Rabbitt, Elena Segura, Sr. Kathleen Tait, Phyllis Winter—and also for Fr. Michael Pfleger. If the list did not include Fr. Pfleger, I would hazard to guess that the media interest tonight would be much reduced. Fr. Pfleger has been a controversialist; and controversy is easier to report on than is love. Fr. Plfeger has spoken in anger, sometimes unjustly or uncharitably; and anger is easier to capture on the camera than is love. But Fr. Pfleger is a Catholic priest and a pastor, and in that capacity, like all good priests and pastors, he acts out of love. Ask his people. Ask the sick he has visited and the dying he has attended. Ask the troubled he has consoled. Ask the young people he has counseled and the school children he has supported.

    As part of his ministry for racial justice, Fr. Pfleger has addressed killing, for killing is not an act of love. We are surrounded by killing on the streets and in the schools, by violence in homes and by abortion that kills a child in its mother’s womb. The killing of the unborn is obviously a racial justice issue when disproportionately those killed before birth come from families of racial minorities. Abortion kills. It kills an unborn child, and it often kills a mother’s spirit. It kills a society that embraces it as a personal right. Abortion kills social and racial justice.

    Because they love God and all God’s people, those honored tonight are signs of hope for all of us. I congratulate them and thank them.

    Francis Cardinal George, OMI
    Archbishop of Chicago

  76. ikseret says:

    Stephen Hand, don’t go into comedy. Your redundant sarcasm is stale and pathetic.

    FYI
    No one is calling for Fr. Pfleger to respect his own racial background and culture, although one would hope a priest would be respectful of all cultures and races.
    All that Catholics want from this priest and his bishop is that their bishops and priests hold the same Catholic faith that is professed in Rome, Jeruslaem, Hong Kong, Lagos, Accra, Sydney, New York, Lima, etc. If Pfleger is a Roman Rite priest he should be faithful to the Roman Rite, not something dreamt up in his own mind.

    It’s sad when a priest becomes a rabid racist and hater of Catholic doctrine.
    But, perhaps if he sat down for a coffee and thought a little before wasting the time he could spend saving souls he would not narcissitcally draw attention to his own personality on his facebook account and could minimize the controversy.
    You, on the other hand could avoid partaking in his scandal by not defending him. Just pray for him.

  77. cwise says:

    Bishop Joseph Perry is Father Pfleger’s vicar. I would suggest contacting him. He might (hopefully) do something about all this:

    Bishop Joseph N. Perry
    Auxiliary Bishop
    Archdiocese of Chicago
    Vicar for Vicariate VI
    Post Office Box 733
    South Holland, IL 60473
    Phone: 708-339-2474
    Fax: 708-339-2477

  78. Dennis Martin says:

    Yes, Fr. Pfleger has crossed a new line, openly mocking his “apology.” The “apology” itself was not really much of an apology and, if it is true that the initiative for it came from the Archdiocese, then I’m disappointed that it was seen as a solution in the first place. Fr. Pfleger should have had to agree to change his personal opinion, at least publicly rather than distinguish between some sort of “respect for the Church’s teaching” and his own “personal opinions.”

    That said, however, I must remind everyone that the bishops no longer have the kind of legitimacy they once had, so that even if some sort of clear-sighted strong disciplining of Fr. Pleger took place, it would largely be ignored. Those who, from their keyboards and armchairs easily call for strong medicine must ask themselves, “and what will we do when it is administered and the recipient and his following simply ignore it?”

    The bishops threw away their ability to govern by not exercising authority more clearly 30 and 40 years ago, when it would have had an effect. Today, when a bishop says, “this is what the Church teaches, you are defying it and you are wrong and I impose this penalty on you,” the target simply says, “who sez?” and “that’s your opinion.”

    I agree that sooner or later push will come to shove and the strong medicine will need to be administered. Sooner is therefore probably better than later.

    But all those keyboard warriors who so easily call for Cardinal George to do this or that should calm down, think it over and with quiet and prayerful heart write, “I will spend hour after hour on my knees today, tomorrow and during the coming weeks and months praying for my bishops and all bishops that they will (1) have the discerment to know exactly what strong medicine to administer to whom and when and (2) that I will have the guts to stand with my bishop and all bishops, with my time, money and sacred honor when the media and all the enemies of the Church come crashing down on them as Grand Inquisitors, cruel and heartless racists, homophobes etc.

    I may think I know just how Bishop X should be governing his diocese and Bishop X may indeed not be governing well, but I am not Bishop X and I won’t have to stand to my tackles (to quote Robert Bolt’s Thomas More) and to have the spittle for it when the storm breaks around Bishop X.

    Traditional/conservative (whatever label you want) Catholics have have developed some bad habits in recent decades, understandably. They’ve had to endure an awful lot of false teaching, bad governance and just plain evil stuff.

    Yes, but we have also let this turn us to shrill public opinion warriors, using the same tactics as those on the “left” or whatever label you want to use. The effort to change the Church’s policy by influencing public opinion by taking out newspaper ads etc., pioneered by the anti-Humanae-Vitae liberals in 1968 was wrong and un-Catholic.

    But “conservatives” are using the same techniques now: if we shout loud enough perhaps we can force, push, compel Bishop So and So to do what we are sure he simply ought to do in Situation Y.

    Bishop X may indeed be messing up. But our yelling at him is not the solution. Sometimes public criticism of Bishop W or Bishop J might be in order, even strong and harsh criticism. Yes.

    But unless such criticism is embedded deeply in a holy life of prayer and hope rather than shrill and desperate anger at the abuses in the Church

    we will be doing exactly what Martin Luther did. Martin Luther was a “traditionalist,” a “conservative” who had become screamingly angry at abuses. He let his anger drive him into heresy. His heresy was fundamently ecclesiological and it originated in his ever-growing anger at the pope. He was cruelly provoked by double-dealing curial officials who undermined good-faith theological discussions with Cardinal Cajetan. He should have remained a loyal Catholic even after being back-stabbed. He didn’t. The rest is history.

    I’m not saying that this is what has happened on “our side” or that it will inevitably happen. I’m just pointing out that it can happen.

    And I am saying that we are supposed to “speak the truth in love.” And it’s just as easy for people on the “right” to be loveless in their angry criticism as it is for people on the “left” to be that way.

    One sign of such loveless anger is the inability to see how lovelessly angry one has become.

  79. Fr_Sotelo says:

    Johannisbrot:

    You have to remember that Fr. Pfleger’s accent is a simulation of the accents which African-Americans in the inner-city might attach to words. When they say, “my body” one could easily mistake “my life.”

    Thus, Pfleger is saying, “This is my Body” but he is not saying it with a normal “white guy” accent (for lack of a better description). Also, he is reading from a prepared text which quotes Scripture literally, so I would doubt that at such a crucial moment he would decide to alter the Scriptural text. He is comfortable altering the texts of the liturgy, but I do not hear him changing Scripture.

    However, if he did state, “this is my life” it would be such a serious abuse that it would be rightful cause for severe canonical penalties to be inflicted. However, in light of the accents I hear from African American friends, I am certain he is saying, “This is My Body.”

  80. JonM says:

    I agree that prayers are necessary. We shouldn’t assume though that those of us complaining do this in lieu of prayer.

    Also, I think we should understand that Bishop Perry will not
    be able to correct the situation, especially in light of the fact that Fr. Pfleger was just personally awarded by the Cardinal metropolitan.

  81. Dr. Eric says:

    Hands off! I want Bishop Perry down here in Belleville after Bishop Braxton gets assigned to a larger Diocese or Archdiocese.

  82. Jane says:

    Some heretics seem to have charmed lives. They say and get away with just about anything and are left alone to continue on with their work of helping to destroy souls.

  83. TJerome says:

    Girgadis, I laughed when I read your “delicate” reference to me. Please note, many of the commentators agree with my assessment of Pfleger and the Cardinal.

    If Pfleger isn’t a left-wing loon (and heretic, I threw that in for you) then I don’t know who is. And what should I say about His Eminence? That’s he’s “manly, in control of the situation, commanding, a lion for the Faith?” In other words, you want me to lie when the answer is so obvious? He’s pandering to this left-wing loon for some short-term benefits, e.g., not making the left-wing loon media mad, and trying to keep a non-Catholic parish within the fold for whatever that is worth. For everyone he loses at St. Sabina’s he’ll probably keep elsewhere and grow the Church. The story of these last 40 years is that the Faithful (not the fake Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates and read the New York Slimes) is crying out for leadership, a la St. John Chrysostom. We need it and we need it now.

  84. TJerome says:

    Dr. Eric, you can’t have him, I want him! Bishop Perry that is. Tom

  85. Johannisbrot says:

    robtbrown:

    “I would like to remind everyone that when Chicago opened up, the job was turned down by at least 5 bishops, who knew that the mess that Cardinal Bernardin left was such that fixing it would take many long years.”

    ===

    Well, Cardinal George was actually the ninth to be asked. And you’re right. That’s indicative of horror of the mess. Good call.

  86. TJerome says:

    I’m just curious about your statement robtbrown concerning the difficulty in finding a bishop who would take the See of Chicago following Cardinal Bernadin’s death. Please correct me if I’m mistaken but I thought that deliberations regarding church appointments were kept confidential.

  87. Johannisbrot says:

    Fr_Sotelo wrote:

    “You have to remember that Fr. Pfleger’s accent is a simulation of the accents which African-Americans in the inner-city might attach to words. When they say, “my body” one could easily mistake “my life.””

    You’re probably right. Good call.

  88. frjim4321 says:

    “I’m just curious about your statement robtbrown concerning the difficulty in finding a bishop who would take the See of Chicago following Cardinal Bernadin’s death. Please correct me if I’m mistaken but I thought that deliberations regarding church appointments were kept confidential. Comment by TJerome — 17 April 2010 @ 7:14 pm”

    CORRECT, the kind of people who know about those things are not the kind of people who TALK.

    Notwithstanding the slander I have read hereabouts regarding Cardinal Bernadin, the US Church has not seen his better since his tragic death. Further, he was one of the few to address sexual abuse in his diocese at an early date. He warned other ordinaries of the poison and how to address it early on, to deaf ears.

    Cardinal George seems like a nice man, and he clearly has a wonderful academic pedigree, but it would have been for the best had he not imposed his personal piety on the entirety of the US Church.

  89. Dr. Eric says:

    TJerome,

    I’m calling Archbishop Sambi and Cardinal Rigali on Monday to request Bishop Perry for Belleville. :-D

  90. Fr Jim: I’m sorry, but Cardinal George has not “imposed his personal piety on the entirety of the US Church”. To what you are referring, I’m not sure.
    As for Cardinal Bernadin, God rest his soul, his legacy, although with “bright spots” is hardly pristine; the historical and documented evidence does not indicate this. Whether “the US Church has not seen his better since his tragic death” is definitely up for discussion and debate.
    Let’s not canonize the man too soon; ever heard of the “Bernadin machine” which is slowly coming to a halt with the replacement of Cardinal Mahoney in LA? There is much more to the story than might meet the eye.

  91. YadaYada says:

    People know people, and people talk, even people back when, people who knew things because they themselves directly prepared the final draft of the terna to be handed to the Holy Father. That’s the way it is. I even know a Cardinal who gave a detailed rundown of the voting of the last Conclave. At any rate, one thing we need not worry about is Fr Pfleger being on any terna, at least not any time soon.

  92. This being Chicago, Democrat party loyalty trumps all. Obama is dividing US Catholics and with this cardinal archbishop not doing his job, O’s job is nearly complete. Remember, the ONLY thing of importance is loyalty to the Democrat Party and NOT Church teaching. Why else did 60 plus CINOs vote for Obamacare?

  93. robtbrown says:

    “I’m just curious about your statement robtbrown concerning the difficulty in finding a bishop who would take the See of Chicago following Cardinal Bernadin’s death. Please correct me if I’m mistaken but I thought that deliberations regarding church appointments were kept confidential. Comment by TJerome — 17 April 2010 @ 7:14 pm”

    CORRECT, the kind of people who know about those things are not the kind of people who TALK.

    It appears you’ve never spent much time in Rome. If you have, you weren’t paying attention.

    Notwithstanding the slander I have read hereabouts regarding Cardinal Bernadin, the US Church has not seen his better since his tragic death.

    Is this the same Cardinal Bernardin under whose pastoral guidance mass attendance in Chicago collapsed?

    Is this the same man who was saying publicly that he was cancer free, yet flying to Rome to try to name his successor? NB: With no success–Rome knew time was on its side. The Bernardin influence in Rome began to wane with the O’Connor nomination in NY. By the time of the Chicago Cardinal’s death, Rome wasn’t interested at all. In fact, he didn’t even get a private audience with the pope a few months before he died.

    Further, he was one of the few to address sexual abuse in his diocese at an early date. He warned other ordinaries of the poison and how to address it early on, to deaf ears.

    It is documented that early cases brought to him brought no action. He did nothing until litigation reared its head.

    Cardinal George seems like a nice man, and he clearly has a wonderful academic pedigree, but it would have been for the best had he not imposed his personal piety on the entirety of the US Church.
    Comment by frjim4321

    And yet every day I see a priest imposing his own personal piety (mostly sentimental piety) on me during mass.

  94. TJerome says:

    frjim4321, if you want another take on Cardinal Bernadin and his role in the abuse scandals, reads some reports at Roman Catholic Faithful. It’s pretty shocking. I am a member of the Chicago Archdiocese and found his leadership on faith and morals weak and squishy. He gave the Democratic Party its abortion cover (intended or not) through the creation of his “seamless garment.” But the Chicago Archdiocese has had weak leadership for decades. The last Archbishop who exercised any measure of control was Samuel Cardinal Stritch. Cardinal Meyer might have been effective in the post-Conciliar period but he died fairly soon after taking the See. Cody had his issues and so did Bernadin. It would now appear that Cardinal George does as well.

  95. TJerome says:

    robtbrown, thanks for your comments. No I have only spent time in Rome as tourist not a Vaticanista.

  96. robtbrown says:

    robtbrown, thanks for your comments. No I have only spent time in Rome as tourist not a Vaticanista.
    Comment by TJerome

    Sorry, but my comments were mostly directed at FrJim, but in editing his post (which included a part of yours), I unfortunately excluded his name.

    And, no, I’m not a Vaticanista but a theologian. On the other hand, spending a few years in Rome, speaking Italian, and knowing a few people meant that I heard things.

    One small example: I was told by a German friend in January 1994 that the Vatican was going to permit altar girls. I told him that he was nuts, that JPII had been very firm in insisting altar girls were a no-no. He replied that his info came from a Euro bishop’s secretary who had seen the letter in the office of the Sec of State. I continued in my opinion until April of that year, when it the news came that Rome indeed was permitting chierichetti.

  97. bookworm says:

    “Cardinal George was actually the ninth to be asked”

    Really? Where did you discover that? I thought those records were confidential too. Anyone know who turned it down?

  98. bookworm says:

    Also, if a diocese stays vacant for more than 6-7 months (like Springfield in Ill. now, or like Cheyenne, Ogdensburg, and Owensboro did last year) is that an indication that perhaps one or more candidates have turned the job down?

  99. Dr. Eric says:

    Shhh, keep quiet about Springfield being vacant. I wouldn’t want Bishop Perry to get stopped on his way down I-55 to Belleville. ;-)

  100. robtbrown says:

    Really? Where did you discover that? I thought those records were confidential too. Anyone know who turned it down?
    Comment by bookworm

    I know of a few who did.

  101. robtbrown says:

    Also, if a diocese stays vacant for more than 6-7 months (like Springfield in Ill. now, or like Cheyenne, Ogdensburg, and Owensboro did last year) is that an indication that perhaps one or more candidates have turned the job down?
    Comment by bookworm

    No.

  102. TJerome says:

    robtbrown, altargirls, that was a huge disappointment. A huge big pander to political correctness. When will the Church ever learn: the more the Church becomes more like the world or accedes to the demands of the world, the less influential it is. The power and greatness of the Faith is when is is counter-cultural. In terms of theology, which area do you focus upon? Best, Tom

  103. robtbrown says:

    robtbrown, altargirls, that was a huge disappointment. A huge big pander to political correctness. When will the Church ever learn: the more the Church becomes more like the world or accedes to the demands of the world, the less influential it is.

    JPII simply wasn’t very interested in liturgy. He didn’t really think that yes/no to altar girls was very important.

    The power and greatness of the Faith is when it is counter-cultural.

    I would say trans-cultural, not counter-cultural.

    In terms of theology, which area do you focus upon? Best, Tom
    Comment by TJerome

    I am by inclination and training a Thomist. Thomists are not really specialists.

  104. TJerome: If it’s any consolation; and it probably will not be.
    Altar girls are going to be a thing of the past.
    It might take some time; but the newly ordained, when they become pastors, for the most part, are not going to continue this practice.
    How do I know?
    Well, not with certainty.
    I can just trust my intuition that this was a ‘fad’ that is going down into he dustbin of history.
    But we must be patient.
    And encourage and support the pastors/priests that are discontinuing this.
    The “Fr. Pf Mass” ain’t gonna withstand time; you have to remember how old Lady Church is! And she, poor gal, has seen everything…everything.
    And She is with us until Jesus comes again (which, considering all that is going on, might not be too far off:<)!)

  105. YadaYada says:

    “Thomists are not really specialists.”

    Brilliant.

  106. TJerome says:

    robtbrown, I studied at the Maritain Institute at Notre Dame, a neo-Thomist center. I also knew Dr. Ralph McInerny, a great man and a Thomist. So you’re in good company.

    nazareth priest, thank you for your perspectives, which I agree with. Liberalism is a spent force in Catholicism. The young simply are not interested in their shallow, Catholic “lite” approach to the Faith. They had 40 years to sell their “product” and it is not selling.