Bishops and priests must do public penance

Some time ago I posted this entry about bishops and priests doing public penance.

Is it time for bishops and priests to do public penance for, well, the crimes of bishops and priests?

I have often written that the way we worship God affects the whole world.  If we really believe what we say Holy Mass is, how could it not?   Doing penance will do the same.

As the frenzy of the press dies down (for now) about the clerical abuse of children let us not forget what Pope Benedict as said about this affliction or what he wrote to the people of Ireland.

The whole Church must do penance for the sake of the whole world, but bishops with priests, especially, must lead the way.

A simple suggestion.. among many that we could offer:

How about on the upcoming feast of Corpus Christi we have not just talk about the Blessed Sacrament, or processions with the Blessed Sacrament… how about even prostration before the Blessed Sacrament?

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84 Responses to Bishops and priests must do public penance

  1. torch621 says:

    Something to keep in mind, for everyone.

    The laity should take this up with their parish priests.

  2. They won’t, Father. Not as long as the bishops can find someone else to blame besides themselves. Since they started fingerprinting Aunt Minnie who’s been teaching CCD for forty years without incident, three priests have been removed from my diocese for inappropriate conduct. All of them sat through that stupid video where a psychiatrist tells kids to say “It’s MY body.” All of them signed an agreement to background checks. All of them passed.

    You see, the solution is not based on the problem. The problem isn’t Aunt Minnie, it’s Father Mickey.

    We ask a lot of our priests, and so we make allowances for human foibles. It’s the least we can do. But a few (a very, VERY few) will take undue advantage of that, and for awhile, looking the other way is less work, therefore easier, therefore preferable. Then it all falls apart, and we need to hang somebody to show the world we mean business.

    And how is business? In the 90s, bishops were still shuffling priests back and forth. That didn’t work. In this past decade, bishops have been throwing their priests to the wolves, sometimes before an accusation is proven true. Sometimes it’s proven false, but the damage to the man is done. That isn’t working either. So what do the bishops do in the NEXT decade, besides put Grandma through the ringer? You will see bishops turn on one another. If you don’t believe this, look at what happened with Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos. The Archbishop of Washington couldn’t wait to be “out of town.” This won’t be the last case, or the worst.

    But it will end when every bishop who ever harbored or enabled a felon in his life, finally owns up to it, and offers his resignation, PUBLICLY. Whether it’s accepted or not, he will lead by his example. The problem will not be solved until that happens.

  3. FrCharles says:

    I reflect on this idea often. I know that I have to do some kind of public penance for our sins if I am going to consider myself grateful for my priesthood. I pray in a particular way to my own patron, St. Charles Lwanga, as I seek the grace of inspiration in this area. I think he is a particularly appropriate intercessor in this regard, as he endured martyrdom–at least in part–for resisting sexual abuse.

  4. Lurker 59 says:

    I highly suggest that the laity be involved in any public penance, not just priests and bishops. The whole Church should do penance not just part of it. It will prevent people from connecting priests with pedophilia but more important it is a more powerful act of reparation for the sins committed by people in the Church, it will promote solidarity of the laity with the clergy, it will refocus the hearts of clerics to the laity to whom they are supposed to be ministering.

    The Church preaches Christ crucified, that means the innocent needs to be involved in carrying the cross of the guilty.

  5. AnAmericanMother says:

    MWBH,

    We can’t by main force drag the bishops to the public square in sackcloth and ashes (at least, o.k., you first! :-D )

    What we CAN do – instead of just complaining about the bishops – is offer our OWN penance and prayers.

  6. AnAmericanMother says:

    Lurker, GMTA.

  7. “Comment by AnAmericanMother — 27 May 2010 @ 9:13 am”

    Oh, yes we can. And historically, we have.

  8. gmaskell says:

    We are all in this together…<

  9. ikseret says:

    Acts of reparation must also be made for places like St. Francis Xavier church in Manhattan which continues to promote immoral sexual behavior and will give a forum in the Main Church to dissenter Kerry Kennedy.

    http://www.sfxavier.org/

  10. AM says:

    The Church preaches Christ crucified, that means the innocent needs to be involved in carrying the cross of the guilty.

    I like this.

  11. Andrew says:

    I don’t mind prostrating before the Blessed Sacrament. Carthusians prostrate themselves during consecration. But I don’t like doing anything that draws attentiion to myself. If I was to prostrate before the Blessed Sacrament folks around me would think that I am being odd, to say the least. Also, if there is a larger crowd, it might be difficult to do. And it might also be more difficult for women.

  12. “Comment by AM — 27 May 2010 @ 9:25 am”

    Yes, be involved in it — WITH them, not instead of them. Demand that they act according to their office. THAT is how “we are all in this together.”

  13. jasoncpetty says:

    Acts of reparation must also be made for places like St. Francis Xavier church in Manhattan . . .

    Whoa. That parish is lost.

  14. Jack Hughes says:

    I think that ikseret may have inadvertently subjected St Francis Xavier to a DDOS attack :)

  15. New Sister says:

    I think the leadership and intercession of priests and bishops is especially important in such penance — for the sake of us laity, their leadership may be as important as the penance itself.

    I will stand behind and follow our priests and bishops in any demonstration of public penance I’m able to attend.

  16. Bornacatholic says:

    67% of the American Bishops were complicit in covering-up the sexual crimes of homosexual priests. How many are still in their positions?

    Bishops and Priests are responsible for this wound in the Body of Christ and they should be the ones who perform the public penance.

    Dragging the Laity into this will only weaken the witness to the world this Penance might provide.

    The sexual crimes of homosexual Prelates and Clerics must be confessed and repented of publicly by those responsible and that definitely excludes the Laity.

    And WHY is Cardinal Law STILL in his position?

    And why are the President and Vice President of the USCCB STILL in their positions given what they did vis a vis a well-known predatory priest pervert?

    I could go on and on, but, I will just end by writing that including the Laity in any public penitential will have the effect of diluting culpability.

    We are NOT to blame for this execrable behavior.

  17. Supertradmum says:

    I used to belong to the Diocese of Davenport, one of the worst dioceses for sexual abuse and one which went bankrupt. I suggested, in an open survey of the people of the diocese on how the diocese should go forward, that we would have three days of fasting and prayer and penance for the horrible problems and lack of faith,as well as level of deceit, as well as homosexuality. The comment was called “interesting and unique” but nothing was ever done. That was several years ago.
    I admire the Bishops of England and Wales who are using Fridays in May for reparations in prayer and sacrifice.

  18. marthawrites says:

    Very topical: just last evening after dinner my husband and I were reading aloud the CCC section on the Church as HOLY. Para. 827 includes a nice quotation by Paul VI on the whole Church’s need to do penance for the sins of its members.

  19. Lee says:

    It seems to me that we, like sinners in the early church, should do public penance. It is true, of course, that many bishops and priests failed in their duties in many ways, but were we Catholic people giving them the prayer/penance support they needed? Obviously not. Or were you praying and doing penance for priests and bishops? I for one was not, not to any great extent.

    When there was a threat last week at this time of the rainbow sash people invading our cathedrals, I was wondering what we could do at our cathedral. It occurred to me how great it would be if people all over the diocese were to meet on the steps of the cathedral and pray the penitential psalms together with the litany of the saints. Putting it in very worldly terms, I thought certainly that would be great theater and great television. But then it seemed to me that this is something we should do ANYWAY, as public sinners did in the early church did. Certainly we sinned publicly. We should do penance publicly. Together. Liturgically. Outside. Rain or shine, cold or wet. For years. Seven years seems like a good number. Preferably on our knees and with tears of genuine repentance for the supersoft, self-indulgent followers of a crucified Savior that we have allowed ourselves to become, for all the damage to the Church and to souls that happened because of our negligence, and in supplication for the graces we need to recover.

  20. kolbe1019 says:

    Please!!!!

    I agree people need to see Bishops and Priests prostrated before the Blessed Sacrament!

    In heaven it is considered the standard posture in the presence of God… well at least according to the Angel of Fatima and the Book of Revelation.

    But yes! I WOULD WALK ON MY KNEES for a mile to see the priests of the Arch-Diocese of Galveston/Houston prostrating before the Blessed Sacrament… I would also like to see our Cardinal enforce the use of the Paten as called for by Redemptionis Sacramentum paragraph 93.

  21. St. Therese the Little Flower did numerous penances for the missionary priest with whom she corresponded. I believe she even scourged herself for them and constantly encouraged them to be holy.

    Blessed Jacinta Marto once said that priests during these latter times should be extremely holy. She used to drag herself to church when she was extremely ill to pray and do penance for them and the Holy Father.

    I know that I have not done enough penance for our priests and bishops and that this whole mess be turned. Now seems as good a time as any.

  22. cmm says:

    From Pope Benedict’s letter: “Only decisive action carried out with complete honesty and transparency will restore the respect and good will of the Irish people towards the Church to which we have consecrated our lives. This must arise, first and foremost, from your own self-examination, inner purification and spiritual renewal”.

    I would love to see signs of self-examination in priests and bishops. If they are doing penance, then I’d like to know exactly what they are doing penance for.

    Let me start with me: as for myself, I could certainly do penance for imprudently trusting clergy just because they are ordained. In that way I have, very indirectly, contributed to the atmosphere that made unchecked abuse and cover-up possible.

  23. I love this idea. If the priests and bishops did this, maybe the laity could get involved too.

  24. aladextra says:

    How about restoring Friday abstinence as compulsory? Or maybe compulsory for Bishops and Priests, with the faithful “strongly encouraged,” with an indulgence for doing so? Specifically offering this sacrifice as reparation. This would have the added benefit of helping to restore our Catholic identity.

  25. Cathomommy says:

    Regarding the sfx.org parish site…oy! I especially like their “Zen Meditation Group”….and the “Lesbian Catholics” group…and the upcoming “Pride Potluck Friday.” St. Francis Xavier must be rolling over in his grave!

  26. catholicmidwest says:

    I have never seen a bishop in this part of the country prostrate any time for any thing. I don’t think I ever will see it either.

    In fact, I have only very seldom seen a priest, any priest, on his knees. You just don’t see such things very often.

  27. “We are NOT to blame for this execrable behavior.

    Comment by Bornacatholic — 27 May 2010 @ 11:51 am”

    We may not be to blame for theirs, but we are to blame for ours.

    Priests who engage in inappropriate conduct are not dirty old men in trenchcoats hanging near playgrounds. They are often bright, attractive, charismatic men, who attract a huge following, and foster what amounts to a cult of personality. Those devoted to them believe they can do no wrong. Eventually they begin to believe it as well. In that sense (and in defense of priests everywhere), they are no different than the rest of us.

    Many are familiar with the priest in the Diocese of Bridgeport who kept an apartment in another city occupied by his gay lover. Less well-known is the assistance of several laypeople who appeared at the rectory in the wake of his departure, telling the rectory staff they were there on behalf of the diocese, and who proceeded to remove the evidence of the priest’s malfeasance. Some of us manage to look the other way at someone’s bad behavior because they are an authority figure, and we convince ourselves we are obliged.

    Many of the stories behind “the Scandals” include accounts of such enabling.

  28. Antioch_2013 says:

    What are types of public penance that we could do? I’m not familiar with the various activities that would be counted as such, is there an official list somewhere with appropriate types of public penance? I saw that prostration before the Blessed Sacrament was counted among them, are there others?

  29. Bornacatholic says:

    We may not be to blame for theirs, but we are to blame for ours

    But that is really a tangent, isn’t it?

    The issue is the Bishops and The Clergy who committed sexual crimes and got away with it’ and dragged our Church down into the gutter; ruined its reputation; and cost us a billion of hard-earned dollars, etc etc etc.

    Since the end of the revolutionary council and the imposition of the revolutionary mass, I HAVE, for more than forty years, lived a penitential existence as I have seen my mass and faith corrupted, diluted, and abused.

    And during that time I never, not once, went into schism. I have always maintained the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority while I have seen the Bishops refuse to discharge their duties to Teach, Rule, and Sanctify.

    I saw their CYA scam of the Dallas Charter. Now, every innocent Tom and Tammy faithful Catholic is finger-printed and back-ground checked to death while the actual sexual criminals and their handlers KEPT their cushy jobs.

    It is all, in the words of the theologian Roger Miller;
    pure D B U double L bull

  30. “But that is really a tangent, isn’t it?”

    No, it is not. It does not let clerics off the hook, which anyone would know who read ALL of it — never mind anything else I had written in this thread. (See above.) The fact is, that not only did every heresy in the Church begin with the clergy, but every genuine reform of the Church began with the laity, but only in the wake of personal reform. That’s not a tangent, but how to get from point A to point B.

    Besides, when you wrote: “I saw their CYA scam of the Dallas Charter. Now, every innocent Tom and Tammy faithful Catholic is finger-printed and back-ground checked to death while the actual sexual criminals and their handlers KEPT their cushy jobs”, you should have known that you were arguing with someone who was agreeing with you.

    Or, as the aforementioned theologian might say, “I wish I had your happiness, and you had a do-wacka-do-wacka-do-wacka-do-wacka-do-wacka-do.”

  31. catholicmidwest says:

    IT is really a tangent, the kind of tangent modern thinkers often fall into. IT goes like this:

    No one is theoretically perfect => therefore I”m not perfect, they’re not perfect => I sin and find a remedy, therefore they sin and find a remedy=> therefore they are no worse than I am, I am no worse than they are.

    The problems of course are: a) we’re not talking about all sins, we’re talking about particular criminal sins that were committed by particular criminal people with a particular criminal motive, and b) the topic is those criminal sins and the criminal people who committed them (and therefore not me), and c) all sins are not of the same gravity. My growling at someone in heavy traffic is not of the same magnitude as some homosexual Roman Catholic bishop slipping out for a piece of tail thinking he won’t get caught. My impatience with traffic is a venial sin; a bishop in the act is much worse, a mortal sin if not many mortal sins at once.

    The media & the culture teaches people to think a little like chimps. IT’s unfortunate but it does obtain its ends: people buy all kinds of crap and will elect any slob when they think like chimps.

  32. catholicmidwest says:

    Bornacatholic is 100% correct.

  33. catholicmidwest:

    Very well. You two kids get together and call yourselves an institute. Your analysis of what I wrote is so far off the mark I don’t even have the time to consider where to begin, only to refer to my own statements again, and let the reader decide for himself. I explained my position, using bornacatholic’s to reinforce it, and I stand behind it — alone if necessary.

  34. catholicmidwest says:

    And going back to the tangent angle, this is really an implicit version of the argument that there are no consequences to sins once they’re forgiven. But that’s patently false. Sin is not just a head trip.

    If a man were to rob a bank and walk away with the money, and then later get cold feet and give it back, they might forgive him, particularly since the money is back. *BUT*, do you really think it would be that simple??? No, of course not. When you rob a bank, you break laws and violate the public order, and those things have consequences. There is also the matter of damages to the bank, for which a robber must pay. The man would go to trial and probably get convicted and spend time in jail. And in this case, that would be just.

    Note how different this is from a 4 year old lifting a piece of bubble gum from a candy counter. Still theft, but the magnitude and culpability are much less, especially if caught and remedied right away.

    This business is no different than the bank robber and the 4 year old. Bishops have great responsibility for their own acts and those of the priests in their charge. The acts in question are very serious acts–heresy, sexual abuse, conspiracy to commit felonies, and so on. To equate their crimes with every little offense by every person in the church is logically incoherent. There are consequences to these serious crimes and they must be paid, not because you or I say so, but because that’s the way the calculus of evil works. No one likes to pay them but they must be paid. This is why it’s unjust for the bishops to go on as usual, trying to minimize their culpability and avoid consequences. It is an imposition on the laity for this to continue, and an even greater imposition for the laity to be blamed for this. It’s another crime in fact, compounding the first round of crimes.

    The whole lot of them who were involved in this series of travesties have lost a lot of credibility, and every iota of that loss has been deserved. They will eventually stand before God and answer to Him for these things, and I wouldn’t be one of them for any thing in the world. Never forget: you can get forgiven, but there are always consequences. Always.

  35. catholicmidwest says:

    “Priests who engage in inappropriate conduct are not dirty old men in trenchcoats hanging near playgrounds. They are often bright, attractive, charismatic men, who attract a huge following, and foster what amounts to a cult of personality. Those devoted to them believe they can do no wrong. Eventually they begin to believe it as well. In that sense (and in defense of priests everywhere), they are no different than the rest of us.”

    *But they are different than the rest of us.” I don’t trade on my position to get sexual favors from children, which is a felony. Period. Most people don’t. So they’re NOT like the rest of us in that regard.

  36. And going back to the tangent angle, this is really an implicit version of the argument that there are no consequences to sins once they’re forgiven. But that’s patently false. Sin is not just a head trip.”

    Before YOU go off on a head trip, could you please explain how I argued, even implicitly, the lack of consequences to sins forgiven? What WAS implicit was my contention that priests are similar to us in their humanity, NOT their ontology. As to the abuse of power, my son’s football coach in high school used his position to attack my son in a locker room. As far as I know, he was not ordained. And public school teachers do constitute at least SOME of the rest of us.

  37. catholicmidwest says:

    manwithblackhat,

    The consequences are not the laity’s to pay. The clergy is the guilty party in clerical sex abuse scandals. If anyone does public penance for clerical sex abuse scandals it should be the clergy.

  38. catholicmidwest says:

    YOur son’s football coach may be an evil man, but according to the principles of logic, in this argument he is a red herring. HE has nothing to do with this.

  39. catholicmidwest says:

    Red Herring:

    “Definition: Partway through an argument, the arguer goes off on a tangent, raising a side issue that distracts the audience from what’s really at stake. Often, the arguer never returns to the original issue.”

    http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

    Named for the practice of using a herring dyed red to distract the hounds from the scent of the fox in order to end the hunt.

  40. catholicmidwest:

    At this point, the reader can observe that you are either repeating statements already answered, or going off on tangents of your own. I stated before (repeatedly) that the laity were not responsible for the sins of their prelates, but for their own. I established that an aspect of human failing was not limited to the clergy, while acknowledging the grace of the sacrament itself. I gave an example from another profession, in which authority can be misused. This is not tangential, but establishes relevance, thus rendering your entymological exercise as unnecessary.

  41. As an addendum …

    In elaborating on how “the laity were not responsible for the sins of their prelates, but for their own,” I cited a specific case in which laics were responsible for enabling the inappropriate behavior of a priest, without the cooperation of any clerics or prelates. There are numerous other examples, but this was one that came to mind.

  42. DdC says:

    manwithblackhat right on operational points; Father right on the public penance: done deal ink it.

    check out the Public Penance Project http://alwayscatholic.com/?p=3195

    Look, this is just crap now. We have to stand together,are we Roman Catholics or not? Time to do it the Jersey way PUT UP OR SHUT UP!! Im doing it finally: Do penance publicly alot of it, say stai zitto to the world and stand for Truth.. Bishops join us or dont its up to u. Or you can spend eternity with ur mentor, Saul Alinsky in hell. BASTA!! [“Basta!” Is right. Let’s stow this sort of comment now.]

    Sorry Father, my blood is boiling, Puglia style!! [ o{]>:¬( ]

  43. catholicmidwest says:

    Fr. Z’s initial statement was “Bishops & priests must do public penance.” Keep that in mind, it’s important.

    You said, “I stated before (repeatedly) that the laity were not responsible for the sins of their prelates, but for their own. I established that an aspect of human failing was not limited to the clergy, while acknowledging the grace of the sacrament itself. I gave an example from another profession, in which authority can be misused. This is not tangential, but establishes relevance, thus rendering your entymological exercise as unnecessary.”

    *It doesn’t matter to this thread that the laity are not perfect, or that they commit sins. That is NOT the topic of the thread. The topic of the thread is the public penance that might be due from the clergy on the basis of clerical sexual abuse.*

    Your bringing up the sins of others *IS* a red herring, a tangent of the most obvious type. The fact that sins are committed by members of the laity has absolutely *NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC.* This topic is about the sexual sins of the clergy and Fr. Z’s asking if they should do public penance for those sins.

    IN case you’re not aware of it, the red herring is a classical logical fallacy. When it appears, it invalidates an argument in one of the fastest ways known. Arguments which contain red herrings are invalid, even if they have valid premises.

    Your structure is:
    Clergy members are guilty of sin.
    Laity members are guilty of sin.
    Therefore clergy members and laity members are both guilty of sin. And therefore, we cannot separate them in culpability.

    This is:
    X is Y.
    Z is Y.
    Therefore X is Z. And therefore, we cannot separate them.
    Example
    Robins are birds.
    Ravens are birds.
    Therefore robins are ravens. And therefore, they are the same.

    But they’re NOT.

    You obviously cannot recognize a typical example of a red herring, even with a fine definition, and I’m always astonished when I see this because human beings are capable of rational thought, even though they don’t always (apparently) engage in it. However, when reason doesn’t suffice, there is generally nothing that will. You *feel* the way you *feel* about this, like my cat does about her whims. I can’t do anything about that. We’re not talking about rationality; we’re talking about animal spirits. Okay, then feel what you want, as long as it’s clear that’s what you’re doing, because that *is* what you’re doing.

    Look at it this way if you can’t manage the technical logical aspects. If, as you say, “I stated before (repeatedly) that the laity were not responsible for the sins of their prelates, but for their own,” then why, oh why, should it matter to your argument what your son’s high school coach did???????

  44. catholicmidwest says:

    So Ddc.
    You said, “We have to stand together,are we Roman Catholics or not? Time to do it the Jersey way PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!”
    Sounds like the Chicago way to me. I do not feel obligated to go along with something I feel is wrong just in order to appease the crowd. I think, in at least some part, that’s what got us in this mess in the first place.
    IF the bishops and priests can climb down off their pedestals long enough to make things right, it would be good. I have no pedestal to climb down off of, thank you. And I didn’t use my position to rape any little kids, thank you. So I feel no compunction to perform any actions in reparation for that. Sorry, but the laity didn’t do this. The clergy did, and only some members of the clergy at that. LET THEM DO PENANCE. Then need it. And don’t deprive them of the opportunity to do it right and get a shot at saving their souls thereby by degrading it down to a little nod and wink in the middle of an indulgent crowd. If they’re going to do it, let them do it.
    MY bet is that they won’t. I have seen no signs that they ever will.

  45. “It doesn’t matter to this thread that the laity are not perfect, or that they commit sins. That is NOT the topic of the thread.”

    The parameters of this conversation are determined by the moderator. You are not the moderator. Neither am I, but I have established a relationship to the central topic, an endeavor which has not been subjected to moderation — yet.

  46. catholicmidwest says:

    Okay, manwithblackhat,

    If not being thrown out is the only criteria you are using to indicate a good conclusion, and that’s good enough for you, then let’s be explicit about that.

  47. “Robins are birds.
    Ravens are birds.
    Therefore robins are ravens. And therefore, they are the same.”

    No, it’s like this:

    Robins are birds.
    Ravens are birds.
    Therefore robins and ravens are both birds.

    In addition to failing to draw a proper parallel, you confuse equality with sameness. In this case, robins and ravens are equal in their essential nature as birds. One is no more or less a species of bird than the other. They are not the same, however, as one has characteristics which distinguish them as robins, the other as ravens. Further, as it apparently cannot be repeated enough, there has never been a refutation of the need for prelates to repent.

    You appear to have a need to argue with those who agree with you on certain points. Or maybe just a need to argue.

  48. “If not being thrown out is the only criteria you are using to indicate a good conclusion …”

    No, it is the only criteria I am using to indicate that I am not too far off-topic (or “digging a rabbit hole,” as it is referred to here).

  49. DdC says:

    Goood afternoon, Mr Catholicmidwest, Sir, you obviously are uneducated concerning the meaning of the Chicago Way and the Jersey Way or you would not have made that statement. Nobody in Jersey gives a flying fig if u do not want to go along with anything? Who cares? I know what the thread says and I was responding DUH to Father and to manwithblackhat. I think that obviously you are confused because last time I looked a mini-rant on thisblog doesnt seem inappropriate given the topic.

    Now since you know NOTNING abt Jersey I suggest you watch the recent you Tube videos of Governor Christie and see how we are not like the gutter snipes of the Chicago Way. We just get it done. We stop bitching and complaining and we go to work. Obviously, I was always under the impression that many people from the Midwest were sensible hardworkers and could appreciate a different style of the same. But alas, I obviously didnt make my self clear enough and unfairly used Italian words you dd not understand. Mea culpa.

    Excuse me, degree in Philosophy many credits in Logic dont need to be skooled here thank you!!

    Check your argumetn u have made a couple of amateur mistakes. Oh by the way, the Jersey way got the zinz!!

    Thk u for your time and i will pray for you when I am prostrate in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Oh, btw, Mr Midwest plz note: apology to Father Zuhlsdorf in comment in advance. Grazie mille!!

  50. catholicmidwest says:

    Yes, manwithblackhat,

    Even scripture says we are all sinners. So what? It’s not news.
    However, all sin is not the same. Clerical sexual abuse is a specific type of sin, one of which the laity are not guilty. It’s as simple as that. It really does not matter to this issue what sins the laity might be guilty of, BECAUSE the topic is penance for clerical sexual sin on the part of clerics.

    You apparently have your mind made up about this, rather like my cat does about mice. It’s not a good idea to argue with her about it either, because she hears nothing rational on the subject and it wastes time and effort. She wants what she wants and she feels what she feels. This discussion has evolved to that level and it is a waste of time.

  51. catholicmidwest says:

    Ddc,
    Got a deal for you Ddc. You stay in Jersey and I will stay here.

    PS. Enjoyed your choice of a new governor. You guys out east may finally be coming to your senses, bravo and good on you. Now to vote out Obama and his crowd of Chicago crooks.

  52. “This discussion has evolved to that level and it is a waste of time.”

    … and it takes two to do that.

  53. Okay, redirecting this thread a bit…prelates and priests should do public penance. Period.
    We have more responsibility before the Lord and our sacred duty has many times, in many places, by many of us, been tarnished by sin, infidelity, omissions, cowardice, and just plain selfishness.
    My proposal: a penitential procession, with the Litany of Saints, the participation of the faithful, asking God’s forgiveness, absolution, healing and restoration, as in the Traditional Rogation Day processions…EVERYBODY there; but the prelates and priests prominent.
    The traditional prayers are most effective, moving and “contemporary” (from the sin of uncleanness…libera nos, Domine…for instance).

  54. catholicmidwest says:

    manwithblackhat,

    No time is wasted if I don’t argue with my cat for being a cat. She just is what she is, and she feels what she feels. It’s her nature. The same is true for some people. I wouldn’t have replied to you if I had known. Sorry for the trouble. Bye.

  55. DdC says:

    I cant even process this… stay in Jersey? thanks for your permission…we got real pizza u dont!!! Stoopid argument, all i did was act a little Jersey and a little Italian and alot Catholic sorry, still thought free speech existed. Wrong!!! Basta. Arriverderla!! Sorry Father will go to Father Pasley fr Confession and thanks for the Latin translation of the Confirmandi names at Mater Ecclesiae. Sarah was Therese of the Child Jesus, thk u, God Bless you Father!!

  56. DdC says:

    Hey mr manwithblackhat, lets get out of backwater village over here. Obviously we are too colorful for the audience, whadda ya think?

  57. I think “nazareth priest” is right. I said so the whole time. And after all that effort, I’m callin’ mama back in Ohio. I have a sudden appetite for cornbread.

  58. DdC says:

    Laughing like crazy you silly chicken Mr Manwithblackhat!!

  59. Wow!
    This became a real “bar room brawl”:<)!
    I’m absolutely…I don’t have a word for it.
    Hope you are all well…really! Not kiddin’ here!

  60. ALL: I am eying the “eject” button.

    Furthermore, do your best to write in complete sentences… and words.

  61. nazareth priest:

    I’m doin’ great.

    Father Z:

    I’m very sorry for the mess. Don’t know what I’d do differently. Sort of.

  62. Jack Hughes says:

    If I was what is commonly called a neo-conservative Catholic (I don’t like labels) and I was visiting this blog post I would assume that trady catholics were a bunch of uncharitable, annoying, venonm spitting mosquitos and therefore would want nothing to do with them.

    Now cocnerning the topic at hand I think that Nazareth Priest has got it right, in addition I would suggest that EVERY Bishop in the world lead such a procession in his diocese along with the entire diocisan clergy wearing the vestments for a Requiam Mass, followed by all of the Religious in the Diocese (except maybe the cloistered ones) and any laymen who want to join in (all in appropriate clothing and not the backless tops I’ve seen on the day of the diocsiasn pilgramage).

  63. manwithblackhat: Great! Thanks! God love ya!

  64. “Comment by Jack Hughes — 28 May 2010 @ 3:30 pm”

    So would I. We’re all on board with nazareth priest here.

  65. DdC: I’m not dissing Italians, whether from Jersey, NY, or wherevers! I get it!!
    Believe me, I know…went to seminary in the Northeast and I have great friends who are Sicilian, NY, NJ Italians.
    Just calm down, bro.
    Basta!
    Love from the Midwest!!

  66. Henry Edwards says:

    Jack Hughes: If I was what is commonly called a neo-conservative Catholic (I don’t like labels) and I was visiting this blog post I would assume that trady catholics were a bunch of uncharitable, annoying, venonm spitting mosquitos and therefore would want nothing to do with them.

    Curious! I’ve been around here at WDTPS quite a while, watching fairly closely even when (as in this thread) I have nothing to contribute personally, and I didn’t recognize this as a discussion among “traddy Catholics”.

    So what I’m curious about is this. What are the telltale clues that alerted you but escaped me?

  67. Henry: If I may answer for Jack H. (and Jack, correct me, if I am wrong)…things were getting a bit nasty between catholicmidwest/DdC/manwithblackhat…I’m not casting aspersions on anyone here, but when Fr Z. has to intervene and threaten to to push the “eject” button, it’s nasty.
    Heated debate; that’s fine. But it was beyond that.
    Being a religious superior, I guess I am very sensitive to this; don’t want black and blue marks…don’t want bloody lips…cyberspace-like speaking:<)!

  68. Jack Hughes says:

    Henry Edwards

    my point was that amongst non-traditional Catholics, traddies have a reputation of being uncharitable, annoying venom spitting mosquitos, now as WDTPRS is a traditional blog poulated mainly by traditionists (of whatever stripe some SSPX, some FSSP, some who attend the 1962 rite under SP) that such a heated debate will confirm the suspicions of those who think we are nasty people.

    Remember people we are amabssidors for Christ and we won’t draw anyone into the Traditionlist movement by being nasty

  69. I really don’t believe that I was in any way mean-spirited. True, I did find it necessary to repeat some points ad nauseum, as it was being denied that I held them, and that can be annoying to another reader, especially when one becomes more emphatic over time. I will plead guilty to that. But I stand behind what I wrote, and the way in which I wrote it.

    Except maybe for that crack about cornbread. I’m from the Midwest as well, so self-deprecation seemed like a good idea at the time.

  70. Henry Edwards says:

    manwithblackhat: Except maybe for that crack about cornbread. I’m from the Midwest …

    Now you’re going too far. I’m a southerner, and cornbread is our thing. (At least, we think so.) Sorry, you can’t have any.

  71. Henry Edwards says:

    Jack, I take your main point, but while there are a lot of folks here of one traditional bent or another, I suspect the largest single category of WDTPRS participants consists of Catholics who attend the OF Mass part or all of the time (as may well be true as well of the commentors in this particular thread).

  72. Obviously we need a separate conversation about cornbread. Probably not here.

  73. Jack Hughes says:

    Henry Edwards, I take your point (I am one of those people who doesn’t have regular access to the EF, indeed I consider myself fortunate to be able to get to it two Sundays a month) however the rite you attend has no bearing on if you are a traditionalist or not.

  74. Henry E. and manw/blackhat: I LOVE cornbread.
    My Mum’s people were from Tennessee…sweet tea and cornbread…
    Better put up a separate conversation about cornbread…the English/Northeasterns et.al won’t understand…not all all:<}!

  75. Jack Hughes says:

    This cornbread sure sounds tasty

  76. Ancient Soul says:

    cornbread huh? well how about a southern dish with a yankee twist?? ;)
    have yer cornbread, beans, onions et al and top it off with a lil maple syrup! Just a smidgeon now! ;) YUM!

  77. Ancient Soul says:

    yanno? I’ve never considered myself political .. but I do now keep an eye on things for the last year or so anyway :) I see and hear many voicing concerns, giving opinions, sharing articles etc., etc., etc. All good things, but, I can’t help thinking how much more productive it would be if we all just took HALF the time we spent on those activities and actually PRAYED and did PENANCE for the Church, the world and each other!
    Father, I’m glad (and I thank you) for mentioning the Public Penance Project on your blog here. You certainly have a good following and your kind mention is very much appreciated! :)
    We are in the process of putting together an actual press release which will be a bit more lengthy than the short bursted email I sent you yesterday! LOL .. We just wanted to get the word out quickly and then figured we could follow it up with a more detailed outline a bit later.
    Again, I just wanted to formally thank you and if you have any ideas for organizations that might help with disseminating this info quickly for no cost, of course ;)…. we’re all ears!
    We’d really like to see this well on the way before the close of the Year for Priests next month. It’s especially dear to our hearts over at alwayscatholic.com because it was mentioned also by our Holy Father and we LOVE our German Shepherd!

  78. “Comment by Ancient Soul — 28 May 2010 @ 7:07 pm”

    WHAT??? Good Lord, that just ain’t natural! We’re taking this to a more suitable venue. Click here.

  79. Ancient Soul: We’re movin’ here from just plain common sense (the Southern ya know’ to the Midwestnorthwest kinda thing’…I was transplanted from northern Illinois (my parents’ folks from central Illinois; their folks from southern Illinois/Tennessee…the northern migration over several central generations just created complete “chaos” to a more integrated sense of Catholic sensibility (okay, my great-grandma on my Dad’s side—a German Catholic Grandma, no less. gave in to my heathen Great-grandfather Methodist Lenox, God rest his soul!)…anyway…God works in mysterious ways, praise Him forever!!. Amen.

  80. Ancient Soul says:

    lol already posted on your blog there David :) .. Till I saw the link there, I wasn’t certain if you were talking maple syrup or Public Penance ;) hehehe

  81. Ancient Soul says:

    He definitely does work in mysterious ways! :) I’m a NYC born and raised gal m’self, now living in rural NH and lovin’ it :) Trying to do what I can to assist and further the Kingdom through His grace!

  82. Ancient Soul says:

    Comment by nazareth priest — 28 May 2010 @ 8:39 pm
    He definitely does work in mysterious ways! :) I’m a NYC born and raised gal m’self, now living in rural NH and lovin’ it :) Trying to do what I can to assist and further the Kingdom through His grace!

  83. LOL!
    I’m lovin’ it here.
    Just love Jesus and His Church.. fergit all about the political b.s…it’s all history…Mary is our Mother; Jesus is our Savior; the Holy Mass is His Presence among us…Alleluia! Don’t become a Charismatic, a Medjorgaite, a Traddie, a “feel goodie with candles, hand holding, strange prayer “naming” kinda things, sitting ina circle, affirming your feminine “orgasm’ kinda thing (sorry, folks!)…WHATEVER is totally weird and uncatholic, according to your formation and sensibilities,…and you will know, honey, you will know…believe me!
    Get thee to the Deanery Priest…pronto… tell him…even if he gives you crap…tell him…if you don’d get any kind of response…go to the Bishop.
    You have a right to be heard. Girlfriends…I’m not bein’ over bearing here…go to the Bishop and tell him.
    You have a right to the Catholic Liturgical Rites according to the Missales Romanum 2002 and without any kind of changes or “pizazz”…that’s straight from the Pope…I’m not kidding!

  84. Lee says:

    Nazareth Priest writes:

    “…prelates and priests should do public penance. Period…

    My proposal: a penitential procession, with the Litany of Saints, the participation of the faithful, asking God’s forgiveness, absolution, healing and restoration, as in the Traditional Rogation Day processions…EVERYBODY there; but the prelates and priests prominent.”

    Or we could go out to brunch together.

    How does your proposal even approach being pentitential? There is simply no proportion between the magnitude of the crime and the penance you propose. A stroll around town in vestments doesn’t make it. Until in some way we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice and impose on ourselves the SUFFERING that offsets and more than offsets these sins against children, then we have not even BEGUN to do the necessary penance.

    Maybe we could strike a balance between your proposal and the one I made earlier:

    Certainly we sinned publicly. We should do penance publicly. Together. Liturgically. Outside on the steps of our churches every Sunday morning. Rain or shine, cold or wet. For years. Seven years seems like a good number. Preferably on our knees and with tears of genuine repentance for the supersoft, self-indulgent followers of a crucified Savior that we have allowed ourselves to become, for all the damage to the Church and to souls that happened because of our negligence, and in supplication for the graces we need to recover.”