LCWR Nuns are “the real thing”

Tom Fox of the Fishwrap was one the honored invited speakers at the recent meeting of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR – a subsidiary of the Magisterium of Nuns).   He has a brief but gushy post at Fishwrap about how the LCWR nuns are “the real thing”, which means they must be fizzy and able to dissolve nails overnight.

Here is the incontrovertible proof that they are “the real thing”.

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Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
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114 Responses to LCWR Nuns are “the real thing”

  1. Mike says:

    Ok. Well. This snippet looks like a floor-cutting from an old Star Trek espisode. I’m thinking “Return of the Archons”.

    “Are you of the body?” “Is Landrou there?”

  2. Thomas S says:

    All the multi-colored polyester!! It looks like Lucky the Leprechaun vomited his Lucky Charms all over the room.

  3. Horatius says:

    Not a sign of the Catholic faith, not a mention of Christ in the ‘blessing,’ and a weird non-Catholic one-handed gesture in the air: heil, Sister! Beginning nowhere and ending in the air. Not in my opinion redeemed by the Hallmark Greeting Card or Red Skelton “Thank you and God bless you.”

  4. acardnal says:

    Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see one religious habit in the entire pan camera shot.
    Of course I’m not surprised. Just note it for the record.

  5. r.j.sciurus says:

    I’m sure there are those who might argue that you did not see one religious in the entire pan camera shot either.

  6. frjim4321 says:

    Not necessarily my preference or my style but I’m reminded of a few youth retreats that I’ve conducted with women leaders who did things I never thought would “work” and they did, and the retreats were great and some of those youth are still quite active in the church.

  7. RobertK says:

    I really think it is time for Rome to put an end to the LCWR. Before their New Age nonsense sends all the wrong messages about the Catholic Church. The Church condemed Gnostism in the past. Now it’s time to condem it in the present. This must stop!.

  8. newyork says:

    Do you suppose that there was even a Mass on their schedule?

  9. adamFERG says:

    Mix some Gentlemen in and this looks exactly like my church. We even do the Nazi Salute blessings.

  10. William Tighe says:

    For them to be truly “the real thing,” according to their own notions, they would have to convert en masse to the Episcopal Church; but if, according to the true Catholic Faith, they would have to give an unqualified submission to the Magisterium of the Church.

  11. Cathy says:

    I don’t want their peace, I want Christ’s peace. This is one of the reasons I don’t particularly like religious music in which “I”, is used in reference to God. I am not the Lord, it’s just weird to be asked to sing that I am.

  12. norancor says:

    I know my comment doesn’t match my moniker, but the Holy See should decertify the LCWR and excommunicate every last nun in that room, penalty reserved to the Holy See.

  13. Sword40 says:

    Them “old ladies” look like they’re members of the Nazi party with that hand salute. Pray for their souls.
    Sick, sick, sick!

  14. frjim4321 says:

    I know my comment doesn’t match my moniker, but the Holy See should decertify the LCWR and excommunicate every last nun in that room, penalty reserved to the Holy See. – norancor

    Right, no rancor at all presuming to impose such a serious penalty on women that you do not know at all.

  15. norancor says:

    Where is the NCR headquartered, and can’t we get a campaign going a la RealCatholicTV to compel them to drop the name Catholic.

  16. drea916 says:

    Where are their red hats?!

  17. norancor says:

    Persuade the local bishop to compel them to drop the name, that is…

  18. Ttony says:

    There is a double irony in the ladies’ raising of their right arms. Obviously they either don’t know, don’t realise, or have forgotten that it is often referred to in English as the “Nazi salute”; but before that it was known as the “Roman salute”. Do they have nobody to do their homework for them?

  19. Horatius says:

    RealCatholicTV dropped the name Catholic.

    I saw the Abbot of a Benedictine monastery at the local super market pushing a shopping cart: black robed! Every inch a monk. He is representing Christ. I honestly lost my place in the aisle, so deeply impressed was I by his fidelity. Be Catholics and show it!

  20. frjim4321 says:

    I saw the Abbot of a Benedictine monastery at the local super market pushing a shopping cart: black robed! Every inch a monk. He is representing Christ. I honestly lost my place in the aisle, so deeply impressed was I by his fidelity. Be Catholics and show it! – Horatius

    And what do you know of his character?

  21. Pingback: SATURDAY AFTERNOON EXTRA | Big ?ulpit

  22. JonPatrick says:

    Two months ago I was at an Extraordinary Form Mas during which 2 young and holy nuns made their final vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to a traditional religious order in a very moving ceremony. It;s hard to imagine this is the same Catholic Church. I feel sadness that these nuns have strayed so far and they do not seem to have any intention of changing their ways.

  23. Jason Keener says:

    As they say, there’s no fool like an old fool. (Let’s redouble our efforts in prayer that these sisters will return to the roots from which their orders were originally founded—fidelity to the Vicar of Christ, fidelity to the Church’s doctrines and norms for religious life, and fidelity to the Church’s authentic liturgical patrimony. If these sisters will not be reformed, let us pray that the Vicar of Christ will quickly suppress their orders before they do any more damage to the People of God.)

  24. CatholicMD says:

    FrJim’s post are becoming so tiresome. I wonder how many vocations have come out of his parish?

  25. frjim4321 says:

    FrJim’s post are becoming so tiresome. I wonder how many vocations have come out of his parish? – Catholic MD

    One young man in vows that I recommended.

    I would think it more tiresome to have no sense of balance among the comments.

    Countless weddings . . . if you count those as vocations.

  26. Countless weddings . . . if you count those as vocations.

    My quite small TLM community has three nuptial Masses scheduled this year. Even so, in recent years we’ve had more priestly and religious vocations than marriage vocations. Hmm … wonder whether it’s just a coincidence that all of our TLM priests invariably wear cassocks?

  27. jbosco88 says:

    That way they’re holding their arms…it looks remarkably familiar…

  28. CatholicMD says:

    I don’t believe Christ desires balance, I believe he requires fidelity.

  29. Brad says:

    I notice FrJim takes a lot of resentment for his oh-so-irksome displays of giving others the benefit of the doubt, even when there seems to be no doubt, perhaps even to Father himself. But he does it anyway, perhaps, regardless of what he really thinks. But when it comes our turn to have a priest be exceedingly, perhaps even foolishly, even recklessly, charitable toward us, as we come to him on a Saturday afternoon, usually, to give him a carefully worded explanation and seek forgiveness, we lap up his kind words of largesse and understanding and non-judgment. Like the prodigal son’s elder brother, we just complain when the largesse is directed toward others. But then in the booth we feel that when we are naked and alone before God, God is so kind and merciful toward us, and doesn’t get any digs in, and understands our horrible weaknesses and doesn’t despise us for them even if we do. Thus Christ our Lord is constantly, never stopping, interceding for us, begging for us, making excuses for us, showing the wounds for us, before the throne of the Father. What if He acted like we do? A sinner wonders and then thanks the Lord for his charity and mercy.

  30. disco says:

    I definitely don’t feel good about the nazi salutes set to awful music.

  31. I am curious, how old are you Fr. Jim?

  32. Bea says:

    Did you get into the “spirit” of that fuzzy feeling?
    OOOOOO
    and
    Heil Hitler
    If that isn’t “real” I don’t know what is.

  33. EXCHIEF says:

    I too am tired of and unimpressed by frjim’s postings. “Balance”? There is only one truth and any attempt to “balance” it simply waters it down—worse yet it contradicts and confuses and denies the truth. I have gotten to the point where when I see frjim as the poster I skip reading it. Closed minded? No….but I know what the Church teaches and proclaims as the truth and it pains me to see a Priest (alleged) not uphold it 100%. It isn’t about you or your popularity frjim.

  34. Rich says:

    Poor old women. Their only hope for survival at this point involves “evolution” into beings whose co-creative powers enable them to endow temselves with some sort of longevity without which their lives and thuse their causes will creep persistently toward a death whose silence these women seem unfortunately willing to continue to drown out with such persistent clamor.

  35. poohbear says:

    The saddest part is that a generation of catholics has been formed by the same kind of thinking as what we see in the sisters.

  36. Bea says:

    frjim4321 says:
    11 August 2012 at 1:19 pm
    I saw the Abbot of a Benedictine monastery at the local super market pushing a shopping cart: black robed! Every inch a monk. He is representing Christ. I honestly lost my place in the aisle, so deeply impressed was I by his fidelity. Be Catholics and show it! – Horatius

    And what do you know of his character?
    ———————————————
    FrJim:
    His Black Robes are a witness to his character.

    This I believe:
    “Lex orandi, lex credendi”
    As we pray, so we believe
    and
    As we believe, so we dress.

  37. Charivari Rob says:

    I’m pretty sure it is possible to speak in truth about the proper nature and posture of prayer and asking & offering blessings without resorting to inflammatory terms such as “Nazi Party”, “Nazi Salute”, and “Heil Hitler”

  38. tstracey says:

    They all look like their giving the Nazi “sig heil”….just saying.

  39. Suburbanbanshee says:

    The problem is that these blessings by the mass of laypeople are instituted in the name of greater lay involvement, whereas most laypeople are thinking, “This looks like a dorkier version of Leni Riefenstahl’s greatest movie hits.” And then when the laypeople say what they’re thinking, apparently that’s nasty. Nastier than making a bunch of laypeople playact national socialist villainy in front of the Blessed Sacrament, even.

    So yeah, we kinda have to laugh and make snarky jokes, to avoid slitting our wrists and committing suicide as an apology to Jesus. (Which would obviously be counterproductive, since suicide is a sin.)

    Of course, if making constructive acts of reparation to Jesus were more a part of Catholicism in the US — if such acts were ever taught to young Catholics at all — there would probably be a lot more walking barefoot through the parish parking lot slush, and a lot less Internet snark. But we weren’t allowed to have that in our palette of responses to Offensive Eighties Crup, so there’s a bit of a way to go in our recovery of Catholic identity as yet.

    (Though come to think of it, Chaucer was full of lay Catholic snarking at Bad Stuff That Shouldn’t Be Put Up With. So maybe it is the real Catholic thing to do.)

  40. iPadre says:

    It reminded me of my seminary days with the “fluffy” Sisters. “Caring and sharing.” The poor things are like a broken record, repeating over and over and over … “Take me back to the 60’s” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BQrdOokGM8

  41. sophiamarie3 says:

    Bizarre.

  42. Horatius says:

    frjim4321: What do I know of his character, you ask? To be frank, that strikes me as an odd question, but I will happily answer it: his habit shows the courage of his conviction.

  43. dawnmaria says:

    I think we must have some sympathy for the sisters as the Church failed them so many years ago. The Church allowed false teachers to lead these sisters into apostasy. We must show mercy and bear some responsibility for their failures. We must pray that they or at least some of them will repent and know the joy of the Lord.

  44. frjim4321 says:

    I am curious, how old are you Fr. Jim?

    You mean, how long to you have to wait for me to die off? Sorry, not that soon. Another whole generation will have to suffer. At least a few more years here and 12 or so at the next pastorate, God willing.

    If I had much hair left it would be entirely blown back by contentions that character can be discerned by one’s attire.

    That being said, I am sure for many religious the habit is a meaningful sign.

    Off to a wedding reception at the Byzantine church hall down the way (wow, the Byzantines are great at that!) . . . believe it or not in my black suit and collar. Maybe those in attendance will infer my outstanding character!

  45. Horatius says:

    Father, are you consistent in your argument? If the habit is a “meaningful sign,” necessarily it reflects the character of the inhabitant, so to speak. I do not know that that is the same as your conclusion “outstanding character,” which I think is a straw man, but that is no matter.

  46. MikeJ9919 says:

    FrJim,

    You ask what Horatius knows of the abbot’s character. But obedience – to the rules of a religious order, to the instructions of those in whose care we are placed (confessors, parish priests, bishops, and the Holy Father), etc. – is integral to a holy Catholic life.

    I read Blessed Mother Teresa’s biography “Come be my light” and it stressed repeatedly the importance of obedience. Jesus spoke directly to her. But he never demanded that she follow his commands over and above those of her superiors. In account after account of approved miracles, you find instructions by the Blessed Mother and other apparitions to take messages or signs to the local bishop or the Pope and to abide by their decision in the matter.

    Adherence to the rules of a religious order is obedience. Faithfully wearing the habit is obedience. Obedience shows us character. It does not show us a complete picture, of course. Only the Lord can know one’s heart. But pretending it is irrelevant is disingenuous.

  47. J Kusske says:

    Come and see the real thing, come and see the real thing, come and see
    There’s a meaning there, but the meaning there really doesn’t mean a thing
    Come and see the real thing, come and see the real thing, come and see

  48. Long-Skirts says:

    frjim4321 said:

    “. . . believe it or not in my black suit and collar. Maybe those in attendance will infer my outstanding character!”

    Our souls often follow our bodies.
    THE
    BLACK
    SAILS

    The power of the cassock
    Is to lure
    Like fishermen
    To nets secure.

    The power of the cassock
    Ebony shine
    A hull of hues
    On deck Divine.

    The power of the cassock
    Anchors the man
    Dead to the world
    In his sea-span.

    The power of the cassock
    Weighted strength
    Before the mast
    It’s linen length.

    The power of the cassock
    Sails your soul
    To greater depths
    From shallow shoal.

    The power of the cassock
    Captains’ pure
    The fishermen
    Our land-locked cure.

  49. Kathleen10 says:

    I hope Fr. Jim never leaves us. Fr. Jim, have fun at your party! I like Fr. Jim’s posts, because they always facilitate a spirited discussion!
    I wonder at what-all Fr. Jim knows, so much more than we, about clerical garb and hypocrisy. Surely he’s seen both sides of it, in spades. Holy clergy in laymen’s clothing, depraved clergy in wonderful clerical garb.
    And he comes here for some fellowship. I like the idea that Fr. Jim finds something compelling and maybe challenging on this blog. So we disagree at times, that’s ok too. We rarely get an opportunity to discuss our sentiments about our faith with a real priest. It’s kind of an opportunity. He’s being himself and we can be ourselves too. That makes for some good commentary!

  50. Kathleen10 says:

    I forgot to say, about the nuns. I feel mixed emotions about the video. It’s kind of incomprehensible that all these sweet-looking middle aged nuns would be so off track. Looking at them, my heart wants to melt. The blessing is tough to watch. I’ve got to remind myself that they are spiritually in danger, as are all the people they have taught and influenced. They have a tremendous spiritual yoke on their shoulders, and they don’t seem to know it. The moral responsibility! It’s pretty terrible to consider. May God have mercy on them, and give the Bishops the wisdom and courage to do the right thing about them. I’m really thankful the investigation was done. Better late than never I suppose.

  51. charismatictrad says:

    Every single one of those hotel staff personnel should see an exorcist.

  52. JKnott says:

    Could it be that the Nazi Salute is really a performance of the similar gesture that con-celebrating priests make at the consecration. It wouldn’t be too hard to suspect that these poor deluded ladies really feel they are ordained to something or other and have the “power”. Cute

    May I suggest that we each offer a Memorare or Ave for FrJim4321. “Where two or three are gathered…” We could storm heaven with a REAL salute. Priests need our prayers to be faithful.
    Oh… and for the poor delude ladies as well.

  53. digdigby says:

    Father Jim is very civilized and I love a man who makes me ‘feel’ shrill and subjective, all arguments aside.

  54. Fr. Erik Richtsteig says:

    Every time I see a group with raised right arms, the “Horst Wesel Leid” comes to mind. When will they learn!

  55. nykash says:

    @CatholicMD – Absolutely!

    I keep the following quote from St. Fidelis close to my heart: “Woe to me if I should prove myself but a halfhearted soldier in the service of my thorn-crowned Captain.”

    Where is their ‘uniform?’ At a parish festival earlier today, I noted a few nuns in full habit and a younger priest in a cassock. Awesome.

  56. The song “Ain’t nothing like the real thing baby” comes to mind…but if that’s the real thing, I for one don’t want any part of that crazy “theology” or whatever they’re doing.

    FrJim, I do see what you’re trying to say. While you really don’t “know” the person as in the way that you’d know a friend, the outer signs can show something about the person, facades aside.

  57. wiFoodie says:

    Reader poll… What’s more of an abomination? “Catholic” female religious who wear pants? Or cassocks, like the female Anglican clergy?
    So, scary I won’t sleep a wink tonight.
    The Holy Father should read Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand’s “The Priveledge of Being a Women” aloud to them live via satellite.

  58. Oh, my.

    Just replay the first part of that video. Isn’t it wonderful how the liberal sisters have all those black men and women serving them at tables?

    So wonderful that the civil rights fight of the 1960s, when bishops like Joseph Rummel excommunicated racists, is over.

  59. PostCatholic says:

    Okay, I get it. You don’t like the attire of the ladies shown in the video, the event is for an organization that espouses beliefes incompatible with conservative Catholicism, only clerics can pronounce blessings in your church, and the mass-arm-outstretched-in-blessing and its resemblance to fascist salutes is justly commented on negatively in many faith traditions and not just among Catholics. Complaints duly noted.

    Did you folks notice the (other) kind gesture? To acknowledge the hard work of the hotel workers and to say thank you and to invoke the kindnesses of their deity upon them–and apparently to have a tradition of long standing in doing so–I think speaks well of the character of these women. It seems to me an authentically Christian action and grounded in Gospel precepts. Also, judging from the smiles and reactions from the hotel staff, it seems to be genuinely appreciated.

  60. FrJLP says:

    I agree with the general assessment of the situation: this and the Hubbard-Marx shenanigans is just weird! Yet, I can’t help but wonder how many of those chortling on about these sisters with allusions to Nazism and the like were up-in-arms this week about a super-PAC supporting President Obama’s re-election campaign implying that Gov. Romney might be responsible for the death of a steel-worker’s wife…

    While these displays incense me, too, I ultimately feel pity for them. My great-aunt is a Sister of Mercy. She entered in 1945 and was one of the few in her convent to stay after the Council, though she bought into the talk of “liberation”… A bright woman, serving as a professor and university president, and then Superior and, later, “President” of the Sisters of Mercy and member of the LCWR, she has not been able to come to grips with the slow decline of her order nor recognize the sources of that decline. White, at times, it would have been much easier for her to join the Episcopalians, with some sense of obedience in all the mess she both stayed in the Church and with her order. As a young priest, invigorated by the zeal of John Paul II and the vision of Benedict XVI, I can’t imagine the internal struggles that my Aunt has gone through to stay. I’ll be honest with her, and always am; but I will not presume to judge her. That belongs to One far greater…

  61. Scott W. says:

    Did you folks notice the (other) kind gesture? To acknowledge the hard work of the hotel workers and to say thank you and to invoke the kindnesses of their deity upon them

    So they didn’t neglect to do what I’ve seen a hundred times by every kind of group that books a hotel convention. I don’t think anyone is seriously disputing that the nuns aren’t nice. I can get nice a dime-a-dozen. That’s not the issue.

  62. Gail F says:

    Here is the text of the song they sang, whcih is called “Jehovah, the blessing”:

    from the Source of Everything
    from the Ground of Being
    receive strength and light
    receive peace, receive love

    from our hearts to your hearts
    from our souls to your souls
    receive strength and light
    receive peace, receive love.

    I just find that so incredibly sad. To reduce God (who is, of course, the Ground of Being and the source of everything) to vagueness, when we have the great blessing to have the revelation that He is indeed a person — or three persons — how sad! To reduce blessing and grace to “strength, light, peace and love” — like things you get from taking a relaxing bath after a hard day — how sad! It is as if they don’t even notice that they have eviscerated our faith and turned it into a vague pantheism that might at best make you feel good from time to time. And the song says to “receive” these things, it doesn’t actually ask anyone to give them.

  63. Hans says:

    Horatius said:
    Red Skelton “Thank you and God bless you.”

    At least with Red Skelton, it didn’t sound as if it were an afterthought, an “Oh, maybe somebody should mention God at some point” moment.

  64. Joseph-Mary says:

    Luckily we do not do that ‘everyone raise your hands to bless thing’ at my parish but I run into it when I visit others. I then fold my hands and say a prayer and never extend because I really cannot give a blessing.

    These poor women have been derailed and it is a serious thing. They need our prayers! If you have read the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila, she was shown her place in hell had she remained a lukewarm nun. We are not even talking about disobedient dissenters! And here is what I read about the seriousness of the profession and vows from Ven. Mary of Agreda’s City of God:
    INSTRUCTION WHICH THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN GAVE ME CONCERNING THE VOWS OF MY PROFESSION.
    Accordingly he who has made vows to Cod has bound his own will ; so that he has no freedom of acting except according to the will and direction of Him to whom he has bound himself; for he is chained down by the words of his own mouth uttered in the profession of his vows. Before taking his vows, the choice of his ways was in his own hands; but having once bound and obliged himself, let him know that he has entirely lost his liberty and had delivered himself up to God in his superiors. The whole ruin or salvation of souls depends upon the use of their free will; but since most men use it ill and damn themselves, the Most High has established religious life under the sacred vows. Thus the creature, by once using its liberty to make a perfect and prudent choice, can deliver up to his Majesty that very liberty, which so many pervert, if it remains free and unhampered in its choice….

    446. My daughter, thou didst happily begin to gather these blessings on the day when thou didst choose the better part; but remember well that thou hast bound thy self to the eternal and mighty God, to whom the inmost secrets of thy heart are manifest. If it is so base and detestable to deceive and disappoint men in just promises, how vile is it to be unfaithful to God in the most just and holy promises? …
    Against all these allegiances and many others thou committest perfidious treason, in failing or hesitating to fulfill what thou hast promised according to thy profession. And if in all the nuns who have obliged themselves to a spiritual life and conversation, it is such a monstrous and terrible abomination to call themselves spouses of Christ, while living as members and slaves of the devil

  65. Andy Lucy says:

    Oh, you mean this wasn’t a meeting of the surviving members of the German-American Volksbund?

  66. Johnno says:

    Well we certainly know a great deal more about frjim’s character, and likewise we also know a lot about the character of many within the LCWR, after all they freely air their views and errors proudly, so how could we not know the sort of people they are? This video is only an appetizer to accompany the meal. Is there some greater mystery I’m missing out on? Will knowing that they feed the birds and buy matches from the poor little match girl in the dead of winter morning alleviate their sins and disobedience and heresy on the scales of justice? Oh my, do you think they’ll get offended by what we think? The poor dears…

  67. AttiaDS says:

    ….Shouldn’t there be giant puppets of some sort here? …I mean BESIDES the sisters.

    But, seriously, this sounds like a song from, “Hair.” …As a matter of fact, this sounds like EVERY song from, “Hair.”

    HOW do they have the authority to give a blessing?!!!! What makes them think they can do this?

    Father Augustine Thompson O.P.: *snicker*

  68. jflare says:

    PostCatholic, I understood the “gesture” and the hotel staffs reactions..rather differently.

    I remember reading something a few years ago about how priests have become rather more..idiotic..by trying to emphasize some point or other of a few individual members of the congregation. As noted in that book, this practice didn’t really intend to emphasize how “nice” this or that congregant might be, but rather how nice FATHER is. The author noted that it had about the effect we might expect: Various congregants bear with it, but probably don’t wish for it much.

    I saw much the same thing here. These nuns didn’t seem to me so concerned about telling the hotels staff how nice they were, so much as they seemed quite interested in demonstrating how nice they, the nuns, were for noticing. And getting about the reaction y9u might expect.
    One of the gents they zoomed in on for a minute seemed to me to be smiling, all right, but I could hear him thinking to himself, “Could we PLEASE get this over with so I can back to doing my job?”. I imagine some will argue that I’m being rather a pessimist, but I must tell you that I’ve been in similar straits before. It’s rather annoying really.

    As to the nuns, I’ll give them credit for this much: This song at least SOUNDED fairly nice.

    Now if we could get them to sing put on habits, find an acceptable “Alleluia” or similar, and sing it in four parts like the nuns at Maria von Trapp’s convent….

    I can dream, can’t I?

  69. Angie Mcs says:

    Although this right hand extension could be a small part of their ritual during this meeting, their decision to use it was a very historically ignorant one- at their age, they must have been exposed to what this has meant by some very evil people. What happens when there is no musical accompaniment? Will this “Heil Hitler- esque gesture become their new symbolic greeting at future meetings.

    How ironic that this should have surfaced considering the racial purity philosophy and goals of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. Still waters run deep.

  70. VexillaRegis says:

    Well, while I don’t agree with Fr. Jim, I think people should be more charitable towards him as a person. Given the previous dicussions of the “biological solution”, he of course took the question about his age as someone wishing he will soon die! You could instead have asked him when he was in seminary.

    Regarding the “Nazi greeting gesture”, that’s a thing they have borrowed from protestant churches, where pastors bless people with one hand (holding the bible with the other one), but usually with the extended arm slightly bent at the elbow. The nuns here stretch their arms too much. It looks bad and maybe a sign of bad education, but do you really think they have Nazi inclinations? Give me a break. They do not have any authority to bless people, but that’s another thing.

    Now I’m off to mass!

  71. The Sicilian Woman says:

    I certainly have known a priest, or two, who wore the collar regularly but, who, in my opinion (and in those of others), did not have characters that served the priesthood well. So, Fr. Jim does have a point. Though, I would imagine that a priest or religious (such as my faithful great-aunt) who wears their collars, cassocks or habits regularly do so out of obedience, as MikeJ9919 said. By wearing clothing that identifies them as part of a religious community, part of our Church, rather than street clothing that has them blend in with us in the rest of society, they are more likely – I hope – to be reminded of their vocation. So, yes, the clothing does mean something.

    That being said, while I am saddened when a priest or religious espouses and promotes views contrary to Church doctrine, and while I will try to disagree with such individuals as civilly as I can, I don’t mind Fr. Jim participating here. His presenting himself here gives us the opportunity to pray for his vocation and salvation.

    Even though this is the Internet, I’m assuming in good faith (pun not intended) that he’s truly a priest, having all faculties, and that he administers the sacraments legitimately. I do not know where he lives or what he looks like (other than his admission that he’s balding), I don’t know where or when my death will come, but…Fr. Jim just might be the priest who hears my (or your, for that matter) last Confession and/or administers my (or your) Anointing of the Sick, and out of respect for those abilities – the same abilities with which my orthodox pastor is blessed – and his civility, I prefer to welcome him here and offer polite but firm fraternal correction as necessary.

  72. Scott W. says:

    AttiaDS said: “….Shouldn’t there be giant puppets of some sort here? …I mean BESIDES the sisters.”

    I say: You know, maybe after the Call-to-Action fiasco with the outrageous puppets, they learned that it doesn’t help their cause.

  73. Horatius says:

    Gail F, thanks for the title. All forms of the tetragrammaton are to be avoided in worship and prayer, the Vatican repeated years ago.

    PostCatholic: you should not reduce Catholics to labels: “conservative.” You have not understood the one true faith, if you do such a thing.

    Fr. Jim, I finally put my finger on what troubles me about your saying “I am sure for many religious the habit is a meaningful sign.” Suppose one said “I am sure for many writers poetry is a meaningful sign.” Well, but they are signs anyway: one is not really saying anything by claiming such, it seems to me. Suppose one said: “I am sure for many poets verse is a meaningful sign.” Again, that yields nothing objectively to the question. It also ignores the fact of tradition: thousands of years of it. There are some things too important to be left to personal opinion.

  74. Sissy says:

    “I am sure for many religious the habit is a meaningful sign.”

    Horatius, this is indeed indicative of a flaw in frjim4321’s approach to the Church, in general. That statement reveals that he regards these matters as purely subjective, as if wearing the habit isn’t objectively significant. Like many progressives, the most he will concede is that he can imagine such a thing is “meaningful to you”. I don’t think he even realizes that he has fallen into relativism.

  75. Horatius says:

    It is in my opinion a Protestant spirit, that sort of relativism, Sissy. It is part of what led the Church to decline as it has over the last few decades. There are hardcore and softcore versions of it, but it is everywhere, not only in the Church.

  76. robtbrown says:

    PostCatholic says:

    Okay, I get it. You don’t like the attire of the ladies shown in the video, the event is for an organization that espouses beliefes incompatible with conservative Catholicism, only clerics can pronounce blessings in your church, and the mass-arm-outstretched-in-blessing and its resemblance to fascist salutes is justly commented on negatively in many faith traditions and not just among Catholics. Complaints duly noted.

    Duly noted but perhaps not duly understood. It is not a matter of conservative vs liberal Catholicism but rather Catholic or not. And it is not true that only priests can impart a blessing. It is true that but only priests can impart a priestly blessing.

    Did you folks notice the (other) kind gesture? To acknowledge the hard work of the hotel workers and to say thank you and to invoke the kindnesses of their deity upon them–and apparently to have a tradition of long standing in doing so–I think speaks well of the character of these women. It seems to me an authentically Christian action and grounded in Gospel precepts. Also, judging from the smiles and reactions from the hotel staff, it seems to be genuinely appreciated.

    Authentically Christian but not specifically so. Gratitude is a virtue annexed Justice.

  77. robtbrown says:

    PostCatholic says:

    Okay, I get it. You don’t like the attire of the ladies shown in the video, the event is for an organization that espouses beliefes incompatible with conservative Catholicism, only clerics can pronounce blessings in your church, and the mass-arm-outstretched-in-blessing and its resemblance to fascist salutes is justly commented on negatively in many faith traditions and not just among Catholics. Complaints duly noted.

    Duly noted but perhaps not duly understood. It is not a matter of conservative vs liberal Catholicism but rather Catholic or not. And it is not true that only priests can impart a blessing. It is true that but only priests can impart a priestly blessing.

  78. NoraLee9 says:

    Our good friend Fr. Jim alleges that we don’t “know” any of these women personally. Well, I do. A couple of the Sisters from Catherine’s school (as well as a couple from Fordham, who taught me Theology) are there. The first group has managed to expel the faith from most of the 1,000 girls in their care. We’ve had a couple (of very hush-hush) abortions this year, and the tales Catherine and her friends bring me make me shudder. It is a 40 mile trek each way on public transportation to either of the trad high schools….
    I’ll dig out that paper I got an A on at Fordham and send it to Father Z if I can find it. I remember when I handed it in thinking that it was so full of tripe that it deserved an F. I just regurgitated what I had heard in class, however…. Imagine my surprise….

  79. robtbrown says:

    Although I think the religious habit and clerical garb should be worn, my experience has been that not wearing the habit does not necessarily mean doctrinal dissenter.

    These women seem to have gone off the rails, but there are many sisters who are in communities that put pressure on them not to wear the habit.

  80. Springkeeper says:

    Looks an awful lot like an ACTS retreat.

    robtbrown: Completely agree. Nowadays habit or clericals almost always equals orthodox belief however polyester pantsuit does not necessarily equal heterodoxy.

  81. VexillaRegis says:

    Back from Mass and lots of coffee :-) Well said, Sicilian Woman! I think there are two reasons for some participants on this blog to want Fr. Jim to leave. No 1 is that they get irritated by people who don’t share their oppinions and N0 2 are the special conditions you have in the US. Let me explain.
    You probably think of WDTPRS as a safe haven for us with more orthodox and traditional leanings, but there is a “pebble in the shoe” – Fr. Jim! Where I live (in Europe) we have never seen puppet masses, Hawaii-chasubles or “New Age- nuns”, but when you experience that sort of thing every day in your parish, I can understand that you might want to have this forum to yourselves.
    Fr. Jim doesen’t bother me at all. He has a good sense of humor and distance to himself and is always civil. We should politely agree to disagree!

  82. St. Epaphras says:

    As one or more said already, the hand outstretched thing is very common in some protestant groups and I think started with pentecostalism or charismania (what my husband calls it). The preacher or whoever will ask everyone to stretch their hands toward the person being prayed for. In those groups the lay people have a lot of supposed spiritual power, too, and I am not being mean. We were in pentecostal groups for many years.

    In our parish we have been asked to do the same a time or two — cannot remember if the “recipient” was receiving a blessing or just a goodbye prayer — and I also noticed some very sweet ladies doing so when someone was receiving the Anointing of the Sick in back of the church. I simply thought: That is very protestant (and so is a LOT of what I see in modern Catholicism). Never once thought of the Nazi Heil Hitler. Just my 1 1/2 cents, but I feel the arm thing is, like so very many other practices amongst Catholics today, just the fruit of Ecumenism (the wrong kind, of course). This is the fruit of it! Just feel we are not better off for having embraced, as some would say, the ecumenical movement. Give me All Catholic, all the time (thanks, Peach Radio).

  83. Marion Ancilla Mariae says:

    These women seem to have gone off the rails, but there are many sisters who are in communities that put pressure on them not to wear the habit.

    Right. Gracious toward hotel employees in public; behind closed doors, ruthless toward aging fellow religious who want to wear the habit, go to Confession, pray the Rosary, and generally remain in communion with the rest of the Church.

    A priest friend – since passed away – was once slapped in the face by one such of these sisters. For upholding Orthodox teaching.

    The older sisters and nuns who want very much to remain faithful Catholics have had it made clear that no one will look after them when they become too infirm to care for themselves, if they “make waves.”

    Ever see the movie Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

    That the Church is finally (!) seeing about reining these individuals in, is nothing less than a mission of mercy on behalf of the even older sisters whom they have under their collective thumbs!

  84. NoTambourines says:

    The collective right-hand “blessing” was always good for a few giggles after the fact in high school. At least our uniform shirts weren’t brown!

  85. AnAmericanMother says:

    There are some things that have just been so contaminated that nobody should use them.

    The swastika is one example. Certainly it has deep roots in India and in American Indian tradition, but . . . you just can’t use it. In fact in Germany & Austria you’ll be prosecuted for it (and you can’t sing Papa Haydn’s lovely tune “Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser” any more, either). The re-enactors and Southern Heritage folks are fighting a rear-guard action on the Confederate Battle Flag, but that’s probably just as much a Lost Cause as what my great-aunt always referred to as “The War”.

    The straight-arm Fascist Salute is another. It originated in the United States in the 1890s as part of the Pledge of Allegiance (look up “Bellamy Salute” if you don’t believe me) and was supposedly derived from the Ancient Romans, although you can’t really date it much further back than David’s “Oath of the Horatii” (part of the whole atheistic cult of the French Revolution). Whatever its origins, it is wholly inappropriate for public use, especially when done by a congregation/audience en masse. As my dear old dad would say, “That just don’t look right.”

  86. jflare says:

    FrJim4321,
    You complained earlier about a lack of balance amongst the comments, among other things. I’m strongly inclined to wonder what you believe our view should be? I don’t know that anyone merits excommunication per se, not yet, but the views they propose need some serious revision. If they don’t adapt a bit, excommunication MIGHT be the only recourse left. At worst, they might need to be disbanded.

    Keep in mind, we aren’t dealing with a group of grandmothers who’re gathered for a bridge club. These are NUNS, women who’ve supposedly dedicated their lives to the service of Christ and His Church. Seems to me that many of the comments here reflect reasonable expectations for what they should be doing or saying. I have a terrible time imagining that Mother Theresa would get along with these ladies, for example.

    I find the “modern” approach these nuns take very annoying. I’ve lived enough of life to know that Catholic faith and much of the world’s attitudes..cannot be reconciled. If we wish to be Catholic, helping each other and others on the way to heaven, we’re going to need to be loud, proud, and stubborn about it.

    I don’t see that coming from these leaders anytime soon.

  87. robtbrown says:

    If I might elaborate my comment above that it’s not necessary to be a priest to give a blessing, but only a priest can give a priestly blessing: A big problem today is that many people (incl probably the sisters above) don’t realize there is a difference.

  88. Gee Fr. Jim,

    I was not implying that I am waiting for you to die; forgive me if my question seem to have that connotation. In reality I am probably a great deal older than you are so the likelihood of me waiting for your demise is truly ludicrous!

  89. PostCatholic says:

    “You have not understood the one true faith, if you do such a thing.”
    “It is not a matter of conservative vs liberal Catholicism but rather Catholic or not.”

    It is hardly my place to decide who may say they are Catholic and be accepted as such, and who may not, since I say that I am not Catholic. I say that the LCWR is an organization incompatible with conservative Catholic views. If you wish to expand Venn diagram to include all Catholics, I won’t quibble with you.

  90. Bea says:

    I am under the impression (by what I have been taught) that only priests can give blessings to other people in general because of their state in life, THEREFORE THESE NUNS CANNOT BLESS OTHERS. Parents may bless their children because of their state in life. Deacons can bless sacramentals but not people. Heads of congregations (Abbots, Abbesses, Superior Generals, Mother Superiors, etc) may bless those who are under their authority.
    It all comes down under what authority these blessings are given.

  91. priests wife says:

    In my city, there’s an enormous empty convent (it used to house 20+ sisters) for the Sisters of Mercy. There are three left in town; they live in apartments and are administrators at the hospital they ‘sponsor’

    across from this empty convent is a full one- filled with habited Sisters of the Servants of Mary who charism is to give free nursing care at night in the homes of chronically and terminally ill patients (so the family can sleep)- these sisters are always smiling and they have many aspirants

  92. robtbrown says:

    priests wife says:

    In my city, there’s an enormous empty convent (it used to house 20+ sisters) for the Sisters of Mercy.

    In Mother Houses, what were once novitiates have now become nursing homes. Sad.

    From Wikipedia:

    The membership of the congregations in the LCWR has been declining rapidly in recent years, both through a lack of any new members in most member congregations and the increasing age of the women that remain. According to the Study on Recent Vocations, the average median age of women in LCWR institutes is 74. Among those who have entered in the past 15 years, 56 percent are over 30.[4] For these reasons, the membership of the congregations in the LCWR declined from 60,642 in 2007, to 46,451 in 2011, to an estimated 43,664 in 2012.[5]

  93. Horatius says:

    PostCatholic, what I was trying to say is, ‘conservative Catholic views’ is not a meaningful category. Perhaps worse, it is one used to divide the Church of Christ. As another poster put it, either something is or is not Catholic. Christ founded one Church, one faith. It is false and destructive of both to speak as if that were not so.

  94. moon1234 says:

    The only difference is that the Horst Wessel Lied is that it makes no bones about WHAT the people who sing it stand for. These are NUNS?

  95. PostCatholic says:

    Horatius: I say it’s meaningful in that this blog constantly draws a distinction around liberal Catholics (sometimes catholics). I’m not going to adjudicate who is the real Catholic for you; to me that’s a bit like trying to decide whether Superman can fly faster than Wonder Woman’s invisible plane.

  96. Supertradmum says:

    One is either a Catholic or not a Catholic. One either believes in the teaching of the Catholic Church as handed down by Christ through His Church or one does not. If one does not, one has removed one’s self from being a practicing Catholic. One remains a “lapsed Catholic” or a “fallen-away Catholic”. Going back to the Venerable Fulton J. Sheen’s comment: “What does one call an ignorant Catholic? A Protestant.” And there are always levels of responsibility as to ignorance, especially in this day and age of information.

    Anyone who can buy an online ticket for a plane or reserve a room for a holiday, can know the teaching of the Catholic Church. Sadly, the nuns have decided to leave the Church and to their own way, which is another way to say “Protestant”.

  97. jhayes says:

    The Vatican website NEWS.VA has a letter from +Sartain today that is respectful of the LCWR:

    Coinciding with the Assembly conclusion, the following statement by Archbishop Sartain was released through the Archdiocese of Seattle:

    “The Holy See and the Bishops of the United States are deeply proud of the historic and continuing contribution of women religious to our country through social, pastoral and spiritual ministries; Catholic health care; Catholic education; and many other areas where they reach out to those on the margins of society.

    As an association of women religious, the LCWR brings unique gifts to its members and to the Church at large. This uniqueness includes sensitivity to suffering, whether in Latin America or the inner-city; whether in the life of an unborn child or the victim of human trafficking.

    Religious women have made a lasting contribution to the wellbeing of our country and continue to do so today. For that they deserve our respect, our support, our thanks and our prayers.

    Along with the members of the LCWR, I remain committed to working to address the issues raised by the Doctrinal Assessment in an atmosphere of prayer and respectful dialogue. We must also work toward clearing up any misunderstandings, and I remain truly hopeful that we will work together without compromising Church teaching or the important role of the LCWR. I look forward to our continued discussions as we collaborate in promoting consecrated life in the United States.”

    Outgoing president, Franciscan Sister Pat Farrell, said the LCWR officers would begin dialogue with Archbishop Sartain, “from a stance of deep prayer that values mutual respect, careful listening and open dialogue”. The Archbishop is expected to attend the organization’s board meeting August 11.

    http://www.news.va/en/news/abp-sartain-us-church-deeply-proud-of-its-women-re

  98. Horatius says:

    PostCatholic: I am writing in haste: you are answering without addressing what I said, except that now you mention ‘adjudicating’ my definition of a ‘real Catholic,’ which is equally (stricto sensu) absurd. I have no doubt that people refer to “Conservative Catholics.” They do so falsely and in abject ignorance. This is not personal opinion, mine or anybody’s, it is fact. One is Catholic or one is not: that is all there is to it, as others here also make clear. So low have Catholics fallen that in great numbers they adopt positions patently contrary to Church teaching, for example. Points of information only. Candor is kindness. God bless.

  99. PostCatholic says:

    Okay, Horatius. I am comfortable with referring to conservative Catholics and with Catholics of the conservative ilk thinking I am wrong to do so.

  100. wmeyer says:

    PostCatholic said: “…the event is for an organization that espouses beliefes[sic] incompatible with conservative Catholicism…”

    No, PC, they espouse beliefs incompatible with Catholicism. No modifier required.

    One cannot support abortion, or Unitarianism, and be Catholic. Conservative, liberal, or whatever.

  101. PostCatholic says:

    There are LCWR nuns espousing Unitarianism (the belief that there is one person in the Christian God, which normally includes the belief that Jesus was not divine)? I’d love to see some links on that. I’m aware many of LCWR leaders have made statements that sound to me a lot like Universalism (the belief that everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell), and I’m not surprised that this is something with which the Catholic hierarchs have had a big problem.

    Again, it’s not for me to decide which ‘women religious’ who say they are Catholic are not Catholic, which are Catholic but heretical, and which are Catholic. I’ll leave that to you.

  102. wmeyer says:

    PC, it’s a cute deflection, but not what I said.

  103. PostCatholic says:

    I stand by what I said: I’m not going to decide which views that Catholics may have cannot be considered Catholic. That is not a role for someone who is not Catholic and does not believe in gods. You have amply made me understand that these ladies have some notions which conservative Catholics believe are not Catholic, and possibly that the ladies themselves should not be understood to be Catholic. Thank you.

  104. jhayes says:

    “What does one call an ignorant Catholic? A Protestant.”

    As I understand the Church’s teaching, if you have been baptized in the Catholic Church, you are always a Catholic. The Church cannot throw you out and you cannot resign.

    At one time you could resign by writing a formal letter of defection to your bishop, but that is no longer possible.

  105. Adam says:

    oh this moved me deeply….so deeply that I had to think immediately of Blessed M Teresa and her order. I was looking all over the video and could not see one of Mother’s nuns. where were they? Oh they were out in the vineyard working with the poor and destitute in THEIR WHITE HABITS. Yes those distinctive habits of which they wash in a clod water and which is basically all they own. They wear the long white habit proudly with the rosary beads and cross.
    Not one habit in that video and not a rosary bead in sight.
    Oh they have lots of time to ‘conference’ and eat and drink dont they.
    when was the last time Blessed M Teresa ever attended such a conference in her lifetime?
    I guess never. I met her many times in India and abroad and she was always on the go or praying. praying whilst moving and up early for hours of prayer before the Blessed Sacrament and then off into the streets. Like her nuns today.
    The problem with these American nuns (yes and not in Africa or Asia) is that they have lost their
    religious identity. They now have colourful secular clothes, go to the hairdresser and live in relative security. None of these nuns are out begging or going without. Join them and
    a girl does not have to give up anything, except marriage and a child.
    Oh and when was the last time a nun recived the Nobel Peace Prize for her work? Oh that
    would be Blessed M Teresa again. Dead only 15 years yet already a Blessed and on the road to
    confirmed canonisation.
    The american nuns with all their raising of hands and their acts of rebellion against Rome and their throwing off of the habit have shown why their numbers are down and falling rapidly.
    They show by their dissent to Rome and the pope just what a mess they are in.
    Sisters ——- if you want reform and you want Christ, just leave the conference tables and nice hotels and venues and go to your churches and chapels and get on your knees and pray then go out, put on the habit of poverty and holiness and give your lives to the poor.
    The american example is not one that any woman would want to follow because it
    is rebellious and is too secular.
    Get in some nuns from India or Africa and find out what they are doing.
    Dont bother bringing in a confirmed atheist – because that is plainly stupid and just
    erroneous. You will never learn to be religious women by listening to an atheist.
    That seems to highlight the whole mess the nuns are in.
    Leave your conference hotels and get back to the consecrated life you ought be living and
    giving example to because the world is not listening to you.
    It really is laughing at you and that is sad.

  106. jhayes says:

    I live (in Europe) we have never seen puppet masses, Hawaii-chasubles or “New Age- nuns”, but when you experience that sort of thing every day in your parish, I can understand that you might want to have this forum to yourselves.

    VexillaRegis, I live in the United States and have have attended Mass almost every Sunday and Holyday since before Vatican Council II. I have never seen a puppet mass or a Hawaii chasuble (or the frequently-mentioned “clown Mass”). Since they are mentioned, I assume that someone must have done such a thing on some occasion, but not in my experience. I suspect that the mentions are more frequent than real occasions on which such things have happened.

    I live across the street from the convent that housed the fully-habited sisters who taught at the school I attended. It is empty now and the only sisters in this area wear ordinary clothing. I don’t think they are any less holy.

  107. robtbrown says:

    PostCatholic,

    Re Conservative vs Liberal Catholicism: Historically, both represent differing approaches to Revelation and doctrine. The first refers to 0bligatory belief in Revelation and Church teaching; the second the notion that Scripture and doctrine are not really de fide–we can pick and choose what we believe.

    As a unrepentant Thomist, I am not a fan of either school: Both are species of theological voluntarism, the first favoring strict enforcement, the latter lax–with neither much caring that the richness of Revelation and Doctrine enlightens the understanding. To Christologize the two in contemporary situations, Conservative Catholicism tends to think of Christ as a Policeman; in Liberal Catholicism Christ is a Social Worker.

    Whatever the flaws of the approach of Conservatives, however, at least they adhere to Doctrine.

    With all the LCWR talk of working with the poor, I wonder how many of them actually do. Or do they consider favoring social legislation to be working with the poor.

    BTW, the flight of sisters from teaching and the collapse of vocations (pace: Fr Martin SJ) has meant that rise in Catholic high school tuition has pushed many middle class families away.

  108. Scott W. says:

    As I understand the Church’s teaching, if you have been baptized in the Catholic Church, you are always a Catholic. The Church cannot throw you out and you cannot resign.

    At one time you could resign by writing a formal letter of defection to your bishop, but that is no longer possible.

    I’ll leave it to the theologians to deal with the metaphyiscal question about where a wayward Catholic is in relation to the body of Christ, but to put it simply both heresy and apostasy are grave sins. But, like all sins, they are forgiveable and, barring one is not under a canonical interdict, simply a matter of going to confession. So yes, there is no such thing as leaving the Church that is so firm and permanent that you need to “redo” the rites of initiation like baptism and confirmation.

  109. Gail F says:

    Does anyone know the source of htat song in the video?

  110. VexillaRegis says:

    jhayes 11.11 am: Good to hear that puppetmasses and such things are rarer in the US then one might think they are, when one never has been in the States :-)! From what friends over there say, I have gathered that the conditions vary quite a lot between the dioceses and parishes in your country.
    We have a (very nice) lady in our parish who comes from the LA area. She thinks that the OF mass here is a bit too formal, and on one occation she nicely suggested to our former pastor, that he should introduce handholding á la americaine during the Our Father. He nearly fainted! Haha!

  111. PostCatholic says:

    Robtbrown, I think was comedian Dara O’Brien who joked that “Catholicism is the most adhesive religion in the world. If you joined the Taliban, you’d merely be regarded as a bad Catholic.”

    Your comments reminded me of a parable that Episcopalian theologian Rev. Wes Seeliger used to tell in which he contrasted settlers and pioneers for “Christianity as it too often is” with “Christianity as it actually is meant to be.” It’s only meant as a simple analogy but if you’re curious, you can Google “Western Theology” and you’ll find it.

  112. jhayes says:

    Gail F, the song is:

    Berakah, the Blessing

    From the Source of everything, from the Ground of Being,
    receive strength and light, receive peace, receive love.

    From my heart to your heart, from my soul to your soul,
    receive strength and light, receive peace, receive love.

    ©2010 by Jan Novotka’s Music LLC (ASCAP). All rights reserved.

    It’s from the album “Anam Cara” (“Soul Friend” in Irish)

    http://www.jannovotka.com

  113. Marcus de Alameda says:

    Not to let slip by, discern that for this s0-important (herstoric) conference, the sisters chose to have the extreme pagan feminist Barbara Marx Hubbard as a main key note speaker. One of her scathing quotes is that ‘Christianity is a cancer on earth and needs to be cut out!’
    Decades ago, with revolutionairy fervor they chose their poison and continue to this day to drink and promote it. I feel sorry for them but feel worse for those whom they distort and lead into the wilderness not to mention the innocent children.
    The dialogue of the deaf (Cardinal Burke)

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