Take the Women’s Ordination Conference! Please?

As we approach the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, I just want to give a big shout out to  the folks at St. Thomas Episcopal Church in downtown Washington, DC, for allowing some Catholic girls to jump around in costumes and record a music video at their place.

Thanks.  Just thanks.  That’s what I call a true spirit of unity.

You may note that the text/lyrics in the video, below, say that the Episcopalians invited the girls to stay with them. This is “schmoozing” is mentioned also on the webpage with the back story.

Unfortunately, these girls did not take them up on their offer.

I encourage Episcopalians and Anglicans far and wide to open their doors to the Women’s Ordination Conference. Please? We need Romanorum coetibus as soon as possible!  Invite wymyn with the coveted MDiv to come over to your side.  After all, doesn’t Episcopalian mean “everyone’s a bishop”?

NB: Put your Mystic Monk Coffee down before watching this.

Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity.

 

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About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Liberals, Lighter fare, Our Catholic Identity, Pope of Christian Unity, Slubberdegullions, The future and our choices and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

151 Responses to Take the Women’s Ordination Conference! Please?

  1. jameeka says:

    God, please forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing.
    Sigh.

  2. catholicgauze says:

    They all seem to not understand what the good St. Therese was saying http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/leaflets/therese.htm

  3. torch621 says:

    What part of “the Church has no authority to ordain women” do these jokers not understand?

    When is the Vatican going to start excommunicating them?

  4. Southern Catholic says:

    “Don’t listen to St. Paul” – I guess she is suggesting we ignore a majority of the New Testament. Yikes!

    However, I am saddened by the lack of puppets and tambourines.

  5. Athelstan says:

    If I were preparing a satirical video to lampoon the women’s ordination movement, I really could not do better than this.

    “Don’t listen to St. Paul!” That’ll win ‘em over.

  6. wanda says:

    Sigh. Poor dopey little girls. God forgive them.

  7. VexillaRegis says:

    Ah, ” We are church” i e Wir sind Kirche, yes we know them. The core of that organisation here has collapsed – because they couldn’t even agree to try to agree. They fought publicly on their internet forum and don’t speak to each other anymore. You will see that happen in this case too.
    Have to have a cup of coffee, sadly not The Mystic Monk!

  8. wmeyer says:

    I spent most of the time watching this video trying to determine whether it was serious or a send-up.

    Yes, there are many whose understanding of the Church is close to nil. I have a cousin who was ordained a couple of years ago in the Episcopalian community. My daughter, now stationed in San Diego, reported that she encountered a woman who claimed to be a member of a Catholic church which has a woman pastor.

    I can only imagine that, at heart, these women are evangelical protestants: convinced they are saved by baptism, so “church” is about feel-good get togethers, not about worship and salvation.

  9. charismatictrad says:

    First of all, there’s so much wrong here. But beyond that, am I the only one who notices they can’t even get their vocabulary right? Women priest, theologically speaking, is a contradiction, Bbt grammatically it’s a contradiction as well. It’s like saying, “I want to be a male mother!” Technically, it should be “priestess.”

  10. disco says:

    I made it about 4 seconds past “don’t listen to Saint Paul”. Yikes! I spit out my mystic monk coffee and I wasn’t even drinking any.

  11. wmeyer says:

    charismatictrad: If they can overlook or dismiss the teaching of the Magisterium, what matter a little grammatical license?

  12. dmwallace says:

    Well…um…the apparaled alb is nice but, alas, the stole is over the chasuble! These ladies will never get it right!

  13. pmullane says:

    ‘Dont listen to St Paul’

    ‘Moving Beyond Jesus’

    ‘Marriage Equality’

    ‘Pro-Choice Catholics’

    ‘Catholics For Obama’

    All slogans of the Devil.

  14. Sword40 says:

    I lasted 47 seconds.

  15. Clinton says:

    “God just called me/ So ordain a lady!”

    I’d always understood that the priesthood wasn’t something one could demand, but
    rather it was the Church, in the person of one’s ordinary, who confirmed and accepted a
    candidate’s vocation. Even if it were possible to ordain women (and it is not), the fact that
    these dames see themselves as having some sort of hotline to the Almighty giving them
    the right to demand ordination makes them, IMHO, manifestly unfit candidates.

    …And they make deeply stupid videos.

  16. ScholaLady says:

    dmwallace: They wear their stoles on the outside because women like their fashion accessories to show!

    My husband showed me this last night without explaining what it was. For about a minute I thought it was a joke. I thought the St. Paul remark was satire. Then it dawned on me they were serious. Sad.

  17. Iowander says:

    “Mom for Pope” = “Mom for papa”?

  18. Tradster says:

    There appears to be at least one feminized, koolaid-drinking boy dancing with them. That’s sad.

  19. Gregory DiPippo says:

    What a wonderfully true voice Mrs Hollom possesses!

    Interesting that comments have been disabled over on youtube; one might almost suspect that there has not been quite the outpouring of support from “where the church is going” that they expected.

  20. Gregory DiPippo says:

    Permit me to add this very funny observation by Marc Barnes:

    If, in the course of human events, a cringe-inducing karaoke of an already over-played pop song is your primary response to the philosophical tradition of the Holy Catholic Church, you’ve negated yourself long, long before you’ve been rebutted.

    Fr. Z's Gold Star Award

  21. NBW says:

    I couldn’t watch the whole thing. I had to turn it off at”Don’t listen to St.Paul.” They truly don’t know what they are doing or saying. They need our prayers!

  22. anna 6 says:

    So lame.
    The young woman in the video probably did this to get credits from their Theology prof, because other than their youth, this has “aging Baby-boomer” written all over it.

  23. Legisperitus says:

    Here’s hoping this song advances their cause in direct proportion to its quality.

  24. Fr Bede Rowe says:

    I quite liked that song (the original one and not the guff those women were singing) now they have destroyed it. I found it all transfixing – like staring into the headlights of an oncoming car.

    It is wonderful to think that all you need is a M. Div and you can get ordained (poor St John Mary Vianney), and a little presumptuous to declare oneself a lady!

  25. MarnieBarcelona says:

    I saw this “thing” on Youtube yesterday and left a charitable comment pointing out their errors. Many of the comments left were similar. Today, comments are disabled. Wonder why?

  26. Sid Cundiff in NC says:

    Persiflage? Parody? Pasquinade (with those signs)? Lampoon? Whatever it is, it isn’t Arnold’s “high seriousness”. It isn’t serious at all. What isn’t serious, isn’t to be taken seriously.

  27. THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH–THE TRUE ALTERNATIVE LIFE-STYLE

  28. Frank H says:

    Are we SURE this isn’t a Zuhlio parody, in the same vein as the classics “Aging Hippy Paradise”, “Lady Tambourine Priest” and “Where Have All the Sisters Gone” ??? C’mon. It HAS to be a parody!

  29. MKR says:

    I’m kinda thinking this was a joke…and a pretty funny one!

  30. Marion Ancilla Mariae says:

    American Idol’s Simon Cowell, if he saw this sorry display, would tell the performers to get some talent and some chops before they dare to appear before a camera again.

    Even a camera phone.

    On second thought, he would probably tell them it’s hopeless, and not to attempt it.

    If they could even dance a little bit well!

  31. frjim4321 says:

    I spent most of the time watching this video trying to determine whether it was serious or a send-up. wm

    We are living in the endtimes. wmeyer and I agree again.

    Until I saw the final credits I thought it could have been a spoof put up by trad Catholics making fun of the WOC.

    As sympathetic as I am of the WOC I’ve yet to meet one of them that I’d like to work with professionally, and this reinforces that notion.

  32. iPadre says:

    Although they are a joke, it is a well made video. Why are we not making good video content to spread the truth and for the New Evangelization? Most Catholic video is garbage that looks like a 5 year old made it. Actually, a 5 year old would probably do much better. On of the few making great Catholic video content is Rob Kaczmark of http://www.spiritjuicestudios.com There are others, but far and few between.

  33. benedetta says:

    frjim4321 lol so you are in favor of pryeestesses just not these women? So not only are you a dissenter but an uber elitist, male chauvinist one who is particularly choosy about WHICH women get to play? Funny. I figure, if it were to happen, might as well be any of these dancing loons. But, it never will happen which makes it all the more loony.

  34. Sixupman says:

    With all due respect and leaving aside the obvious, these personable young ladies are not to blame.

    We are to blame for their situation, understanding and ambitions. Obedience to our local ordinaries and ‘nuchurch-minded’ clergy, not to mention rectors of seminaries and those in control of day to day so called Catholic education, have been allowed to wreak havoc and we either stood by and did nothing or we demonstrated with our feet.

    The personable you ladies, an improvement on the usual crew fronting female clergy, are guilty of nothing more than ‘invincible ignorance, for which they are not to blame.

  35. Admiral-GER says:

    How can thesengirls dare to wear kilts?
    That shows a huge disrespect for William Wallaces fight for freedom!

  36. contrarian says:

    I have to join the chorus of doubters here: are we sure this is real?
    I think it’s a hoax.
    It’s a pretty funny parody and a pretty interesting psychological experiment in viral video’ing, but I seriously doubt its authenticity.

  37. Christopher says:

    Contrarian:
    They have an endorsement at the end of the video, it seems legitimate.

    God Bless.

  38. charismatictrad says: Technically, it should be “priestess.”

    Priestesses are creatures of paganism, and instantly associated with paganism, which, presumably, is why (a) God established a male-only priesthood, and (b) the “womenpriest” people won’t use that term.

  39. benedetta says:

    So “womenpriest” is actually like saying “guymommy” or “ladydad”. Makes the Holy Father’s address to the Curia resound that much more.

    The “womenpriest” agitating meshes up with the now very dated but still unfortunately continuing in some places effort to refer to God as “our Mother” etc. I don’t think any of these efforts will finally be able to negate gender.

  40. off2 says:

    I made it to 54 secs; then I started to cry. Rather unbecoming in a man my age….

    frjim4321 “As sympathetic as I am of the WOC….” Some months ago I believe Fr Z assured his readers that you are a Roman Catholic priest. Are you actually advocating WO?

  41. alexandra88 says:

    Coooooorrrrr blimey. I gave up on the 1:30 mark.

    For more Catholic dissenting chart toppers, YouTube “Love Cannot Be Silenced”, the official song for the LCWR. You will die a little bit inside.

  42. frjim4321 says:

    benedetta, undoubtedly there have been some criticisms of me over the years by my superiors but the ability to interact with women in ministry has never been pointed out to me as a growth goal . . . I’m simply saying that the two or three that I have met who are zealous for the cause are not individuals that I would care to work with.

    (1) had a overblown sense of entitlement and felt she could be in any part of the rectory at any hour of the day or night running her own personal business;
    (2) a dear soul but horrible work ethic, arriving late, leaving early, never answering phone messages;
    (3) had an affair with another member of the staff.

    I think these are all sufficient problems and not a manifestation of chauvinism.

    off2, I am not an advocate of the ordination of women but I can’t say that I have been convinced by any of the arguments that I’ve heard to the contrary.

  43. benedetta says:

    frjim4321, I’m sure there are many malepriests who fit your criticisms and I can think of a few more heinous disqualifications. That women aren’t perfect as reason why not tends towards male chauvinism, certainly. Even if you pride yourself otherwise. No it’s not for these reasons that the Church doesn’t ordain women. JPII’s beautiful writings to and on the gifts of women are instructive here. There are no “arguments to the contrary”, it simply cannot be. There is no debate and there won’t be one. And so the ladies you have met are probably caught in this desperate situation which is very sad. I would guess that their ambitions to be something their sex does not permit is the cause of the erratic and unfortunate behavior you observe. If you look outside of your true feminine vocation for something else, you are living out a serious conflict. I think you as a pastor ought to have encouraged them to seek a more truthful and genuine vocation as women than affirm them in their wrong headed and confused quest for something truly unattainable and as women undesirable. This from someone who has been in the workplace and in the domestic church for many years.

  44. benedetta says:

    Look at this video this way, man or woman, would you want someone dancing in this way to this dumb song, “vested” for liturgy, saying to you, “And hi, I’m your pastor!” Noooooooooo. Not fun. Scary.

  45. fvhale says:

    Not only are comments disabled at YouTube, but even “Like / Dislike” ratings have been disabled. Nothing like ecumenical dialogue. The credits mention several Episcopaleans and at least one name I recognized as a Catholic WOC member, but there did not seem to be any credits for the primary dancers.

    Yeah, this sort of thing really does a lot of good for their cause. We will all take them so seriously.

    Reminded me of a certain dancing purple dinosaur.

  46. acardnal says:

    I wonder how many, if any, of the singers in the video pray the Our Lady’s rosary?

  47. snoozie says:

    this is one of the clearest exibits as to why women should NOT be ordained.

    ‘specially loved the lines,
    “hey, don’t listen to St. Paul…”
    “I refuse to kneel to patriarchy’s way”
    “excommunication…I’m still glowing!”
    ….yeeeahhhh….that’s holiness alright.

    oh yeah, and this one, “we want our church back, we want it all back.”…got news for ya “ladies”, your church is down the road by the big oak tree under the solstice moon…just look for the 13 crones in a circle. Those boho-chic patched ‘albs’ you’re wearing will fit in mighty nicely there.

    nuts!…this world’s gone stark raving NUTS.

  48. benedetta says:

    The key line in this song goes “And this is crazy”. Yes, this is crazy.

    How would these Episcopalians like it if we made a something…oh wait…I forgot about “Bad Vestments”…

  49. gracie says:

    I think the doctrine of a male-only priesthood needs to be developed more fully. It’s not enough to say to girls, “The Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood”. That statement makes no sense to girls. Why doesn’t it have the authority? It’s the Church, right? It could do it if it wanted to? It’s just a bunch of old men who don’t want women to be in positions of authority in the Church, etc., etc.

    These questions have to be answered in a way that makes sense to the girls and women. I have a student in my CCD class who has asked me several times why women can’t be priests and I’ve been putting her off until I can pull together a response that will make sense to her. I think the problem is that until recently no one challenged the all male priesthood so no one in the Church has written much about it. But as with other heresies, this one has to be met with reasoning. Our Church properly has been responding to heresies since Arianism and before that, I guess. They didn’t just tell the opponents to shut up – they explained in great detail why such a heresy was in error. The Counter-Reformation was another response, this time to the Protestant reformers. It’s not enough to just say – “we’re right, you’re wrong” because souls are at stake. Just as Marian doctrine was developed in response to the reformers increasingly saying “she’s not the mother of God, she wasn’t immaculately conceived, she wasn’t assumed into heaven, etc.” in this age the Church needs to develop the doctrine of the male-only priesthood with a rational argument grounded on the nature of God Himself.

  50. Darren says:

    Are there monks with a distillery somewhere? After watching that, I need a drink! Maybe some sambuca in my Mystic Monk espresso!

  51. Wow, watched the whole thing! But desperately wanted to turn it off about ten times. I think that counts as a form of penance.
    “Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
    http://www.MerryCatholic.com

  52. APX says:

    @Gracie
    The way male-only priesthood was explained to me when I was a kid was not “the Church doesn’t have the authority”, but through the whole Persona Christe and that priests, being married to the Church, since Jesus was the Bridegroom and the Church was his Bride, and since priests represented Jesus, they had to be men because a bride can’t marry another bride. Of course, this was back in the days when people didn’t think a bride and a bride could get married. Now people are so messed up trying to use any analogy will be futile.

  53. Will Elliott says:

    1) From the first stanza: “Woman Priest is my call.” Interesting. Is this an admission their alleged vocations aren’t to the same priesthood as men?
    2) We already know they attack the Church’s teachings on ordination. Can we interpret their dance gestures as an concurrent attack on American Sign Language?

  54. fvhale says:

    @Gracie,

    The Church has been studying and responding to this question for quite some time.
    A significant response can be found in Inter Insignores from 1976 (i.e. 36 years ago).

    Recall that the first (irregular) ordination of women to the Episcopal (USA) priesthood was only in 1974. It is not as if this is an ancient question among Christians that predates the modern women’s movement. The first American Episcopal woman bishop was not ordained until 1989.

    There are also very broad issues related to this which would be good topics for CCD rather than the pointed question of “Why can’t girls be priests?” For example, the relationship between male and female, between man and woman, including differences and similarities, and also the differences between the priesthood of all believers and the ministerial priesthood. These are big topics that need to be presented to all children to help them understand their existence and vocation as particular persons created by God. Perhaps we should ask, “What did God make me to be, to do?” (a question focused on God and my place as one of God’s creatures) rather than “Why can’t I do that, too?” (a question focused on my self, and perhaps with a little pride and envy thrown in).

  55. netokor says:

    Just another group of shallow enemies of the Church. In their zeal to destroy, they are blind to the fact that they have moved not just “beyond Jesus,” but also beyond any openness to charitable admonishment. We must always pray for them. Only God can reach them–and they can still reject Him.

  56. frjim4321 says:

    Are there monks with a distillery somewhere? After watching that, I need a drink! Maybe some sambuca in my Mystic Monk espresso! Darren

    I am one who absolutely loathes flavors in my coffee.

    The only notable exception is indeed sambuca. Sambuca in coffee with an espresso bean is truly a match made in heaven!

  57. ” Darren says:
    3 January 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Are there monks with a distillery somewhere? After watching that, I need a drink! Maybe some sambuca in my Mystic Monk espresso!”
    —————————————–
    @Darren, yes yes there are,,
    http://birranursia.com/en/storia/nome/

  58. Here is frjim’s problem.

    frjim says that he can’t accept the Church’s definitive teaching. He says, above, he is not “convinced by any of the arguments” against the ordination of women.

    Here is the problem with that.

    frjim is applying his own hermeneutic to the Church’s teaching about the impossibility of the ordination of women.

    For example, if frjim doesn’t accept the Biblical data, namely that the Lord chose only men as his apostles, that’s a hermeneutic. If frjim doesn’t accept the early Church’s practice as normative, that’s a hermeneutic. If he says these early witnesses were contaminated by the patriarchy common to their time, he is applying a social-historical hermeneutic.

    However, it is not frjim’s job to pick and choose his interpretive lens in the matter. That is the task, duty, and right of the Roman Pontiff.

    The Roman Pontiff has given us the hermeneutic to apply to this issue.

    So in deciding he doesn’t accept the Holy Father’s teaching about the Church’s Tradition, frjim has in effect done exactly what Protestants do.

    Is frjim his own Pope?

  59. DisturbedMary says:

    If green felt could dance…..

  60. What’s the original song? I thought they made this up.

  61. frjim4321 says:

    Here is frjim’s problem… Esteemed Blogmaster

    I admit that I would look spectacular in a tiara.

    I’m not a zealot for the cause . . . and when the rubber hits the road it comes up as an issue just about never in real ministerial life. So it’s more of a theoretical question than anything else. I just find it curious that unlike just about anything else the ordination of women is the show-stopping third rail of institutional Catholicism. Why is that?

    I think there are a lot of Catholics who aren’t totally on board with every pronouncement that comes down the line but I don’t think it makes them all popes. Are the 95% of Catholic women who either use or have used artificial birth control trying to be popes?

  62. anton says:

    Catholic girls???????………I would question that considering they have difficulty crossing themselves….especially the prystyss with the green chasuble. I would think that to ask to be ordained, one would at least know how to do bless oneself properly…..Catholic 101….look into it girls.

  63. PA mom says:

    Gracie, I agree this does need more development, and maybe by faithful women. In addition to describing it as like to Jesus and the Apostles, I have begun to point out to the girls that being the priest has often throughout history meant being in grave danger. From Anglican England, Imperial Japan, early America to Muslim anywhere, there has been real physical danger. What man would push a woman out to the front to shield him from harm?

  64. Father Jim:

    Uh, no.

    “…it’s more of a theoretical question than anything else.” No, it’s not. Even the rather obscure issue of consubstantiality is not merely a theoretical question–it has real, practical implications for us as followers of Christ, here and in eternity. So it is with the question of women’s ordination. Perhaps you can’t see it; but I can.

    Why is it a show-stopper? First, because folks are attempting to be ordained,we have clergy and laity who are participating in these sacrileges–which is what the simulation of a sacrament is–we have putative Catholic publications celebrating it–adding to confusion–and we have religious orders agonizing over whether to discipline their members for participation in said sacrilege. As long as the guerilla campaign for women’s ordination continues, it will be a big deal.

    Your comparison to contraception is apt; that, too, is a big deal. We have both a religious-freedom crisis in the U.S. over contraception, and we have a geopolitical crisis brewing because of the demographic winter moving in, on top of the social and moral crises arising from contraception.

  65. wmeyer says:

    I wonder how many, if any, of the singers in the video pray the Our Lady’s rosary?

    A worthy question, acardnal, and if they had a DRE like the one I had–a woman, by the way–in a former parish, they would have been taught that “it’s not for everyone.”

    Can we please have an end to these SV2 people being left in charge of teaching the faith?

  66. Samthe44 says:

    Stoles over chasubles. Maybe they should have learned how to dress before they did their Masters of Divinity.

  67. Jitpring says:

    After looking at their sites and watching another of their videos, it’s clear to me that their whole operation is definitely satirical. This will be revealed in due time. It should be perfectly obvious to everyone, but today’s insanity means it isn’t.

  68. wmeyer says:

    I think the doctrine of a male-only priesthood needs to be developed more fully. It’s not enough to say to girls, “The Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood”. That statement makes no sense to girls. Why doesn’t it have the authority? It’s the Church, right? It could do it if it wanted to? It’s just a bunch of old men who don’t want women to be in positions of authority in the Church, etc., etc.

    gracie, with respect, I think that if young women do not understand the statement, then the young women have had insufficient catechesis. It is not a mere statement, but a statement from the pope, our pontiff, delivered in Ordinatio sacerdotalis, as an infallible teaching:

    “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

    If they cannot understand papal infallibility, then indeed, catechesis is called for, and now.

  69. ALL: Let’s address the problem with aforementioned argument by frjim, such as it is.

    Let’s look first at his reference to “institutional Catholicism”.

    What is that, exactly? Would frjim like to unpack that for us?

    Where is that in Lumen gentium? In what manual did that come from?

    What he means is “the bishops”. And then, for frjim, there is “everyone else”.

    What about hospitals run by the nuns? Is that “institutional”? Or does “institutional” include only the hierarchy?

    If so, why not just say that? Be clear about what you mean, frjim. Why not just openly, right here and now, pit “everyone else” against the “bishops”?

    Moving on, there is this “third rail” business. I don’t know for sure what frjim means by this. If he is referring to clowns like Roy Bourgeois, then I can tell him why the issue is a “showstopper”. It has to do with making a mockery of two sacraments at the same time: Holy Orders and Eucharist. Do I have to explain this, or is the rest of my point clear? Let me know.

    Third, are the 95% of Catholics using contraception trying to be popes? Probably no more than the 95% of Catholic men who have taken the Lord’s Name in vain, are trying to be popes. When people behave in a way that contradicts Catholic moral teaching, we call that “sin”. When people take out ads, form organizations, march around in churches and disrupt liturgy to protest Catholic teaching, we call that “dissent”. It is the latter who are trying to be popes.

  70. wmeyer says:

    frjim said: I am one who absolutely loathes flavors in my coffee.

    Two occasions for agreement between us on one thread??? This may be the provocation of a coronary incident.

  71. Denis says:

    Why don’t the women who want to be ordained just become Episcopalian/Anglican? I suspect that it’s a job security issue: there simply aren’t enough Episcopalians/Anglicans left to subsidize many more priestesses. The trouble with that strategy is that a Catholic Church with priestesses would shrink down to piskie size very quickly. For whatever reason, neither men nor women respond well to priestesses.

  72. HyacinthClare says:

    Bless you, bless you, MWindsor! I needed that so VERY much today!!

  73. Bryan Boyle says:

    wmeyer: Deep breath, brother. Even a broken clock (or record) can be right twice a day…

  74. wmeyer says:

    Bryan, yes, I needed time for reflection. Calmer now.

  75. jbosco88 says:

    This movement is becoming a religion on its own right.

    Can we expect Gangam Style Serviettes?

  76. wmeyer says:

    frjim: My question must be why it is apparently insufficient to you that we have an infallible teaching on ordination of women. Do you deny papal infallibility?

  77. acardnal says:

    MWindsor, gotta love Fr. Bill Casey! Thanks for posting the video.

  78. Scott W. says:

    Why don’t the women who want to be ordained just become Episcopalian/Anglican? I suspect that it’s a job security issue: there simply aren’t enough Episcopalians/Anglicans left to subsidize many more priestesses.

    You come to one of the delusions in the women’s ordination movement. It’s actually in the video for a moment when the song goes “other churches try to schmooze me [she motions toward a church building with what looks like an Episcopal symbol on it], but I’m a Catholic, so ordain a Lady.”

    The truth is that these women have already been successfully schmoozed by another church. My favorite atheist observed that theism and idealism are interchangeable and offered this challenge: spot any substantial difference between Unitarianism and Political Correctness. So, while I am sympathetic to the idea that it’s not enough to say to girls, “The Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood”, ultimately it may be impossible to provide an explanation that will satisfy whole generations catechized in the Church of PC.

  79. Scott W. says:

    Ahh sorry I forgot to close my link tag.

  80. Scott W. says:

    They all seem to not understand what the good St. Therese was saying http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/leaflets/therese.htm

    You are being charitable. I think they deliberately lie by omission. We see the same thing when they leave out critical parts and mistranslate Aquinas when he talks about conscience.

  81. PostCatholic says:

    What’s the hostility towards an M.Div. about? I’m sure there are many Catholic women who use that education well in their professional ministry who don’t aspire to priesthood, and probably more than a few male priests who have earned them, too. (I have one. They’re neat. I don’t use it professionally.)

    Are there monks with a distillery somewhere? After watching that, I need a drink! Maybe some sambuca in my Mystic Monk espresso!

    Darren, there are! See Stellina and Chartreuse, both of which are an acquired taste I’ve been happy not to pursue, but someone must like them.

  82. Scott W. says:

    What’s the hostility towards an M.Div. about?

    It’s not directed at an M. Div in and of itself, but rather the tendency of The Usual Suspects to do an inordinate amount of sheepskin waving as if it proves anything. They will have a fit of vapors about “clericalism”, but it is clear that they think something like “theologianism” is an acceptable replacement. It reminds me of debates with Protestants really. They will harp on the “perspicuity” of Scripture, but when they get to Bible chapters such as John 6 on the Eucharist and Matthew when Our Lord declares Peter “The Rock” all of a sudden they call on an army of pointy-headed academics writing reams of text about one word or even a fraction of a word to make sure no one accepts the perspicacious reading. It is a kind of salvation by intellectual works and the magisterium’s pecking order to be determined by who has the best alphabet combination in front of their names.

  83. acardnal says:

    Darren, have you heard of “Christian Brothers” brandy? One of America’s finest brandies. It started off as a religious order distillery in the 19th century but, unfortunately, I don’t think it is any more.

  84. OrthodoxChick says:

    Don’t let girls serve Mass as an altar boy and they won’t grow up expecting to go on to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

    Solution to problem.

  85. Scott W. says:

    Don’t let girls serve Mass as an altar boy and they won’t grow up expecting to go on to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

    While I think altar boys should always be boys, I don’t think altar girls grow up wanting Holy Orders generally. That’s exactly the women’s ordination movements problem: Young girls on the whole have no interest in it, hence this ham-fisted video to appeal to younger crowds. However, I am convinced that altar girls do chase off boys from vocations.

  86. Legisperitus says:

    So this is a karaoke of a pop song? What’s the original song?

  87. OrthodoxChick says:

    Scott W.

    Are you forgetting that for decades now, girls have been plied with the feminist message that girls are equal to boys, if not superior? Look through any juniors girls clothing section in springtime and you’ll find your fair share of t-shirts proclaiming “girl power”, “girls rule – boys drool”, etc.

    Encouraging young girls to have positive self-esteem so they don’t fall victim to trying to live up to over-sexualized societal (porn) images of female attractiveness is one thing. Convincing them that they are equal to men, if not better than men, is a horse of another color. The latter can easily lay the groundwork for wymyn priestesses, imho.

  88. Stu says:

    Probably been said…but I find it ironic that the womyn priest crowd has such bad taste when it comes to vestments. Fitting but ironic.

  89. PostCatholic says:

    Scott W., thank you. I’d be wary of sheepskin-waving M.Div.’s, too. An Masters of Divinity is a pastoral degree. Anyone who believes it makes her a theologian is mistaken; it normally includes only coursework for the essentials of practical theology in one’s area of ministry. A Th.M. is the corresponding degree in theology.

    That said, most of what I have learned about theology and about ministry I gained after they laid the sheepskins on me. Pointing to a degree in those areas as anything more than base qualification is like saying you’re an expert on roof construction because you know how to excavate a basement.

  90. Stu says:

    OrthodoxChick,

    In my junior officer tour in the Navy, we began to get female pilots in the squadron. The first one that arrived had a shirt like that featuring Amelia Earhart that said “Girls Fly.” I’m not sure I would have picked flyer who had multiple crashes during her career and ultimately is famous for poor fuel planning and getting lost.

    Now that is an amusing story, but your larger point is spot on.

  91. I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. I try to teach my girls that men and women are different and I’m criticized for it. Equal yes, the same no. How hard is it to realize that Jesus was a man and chose men as the apostles? I just don’t get it. Knowing your role is not a bad thing. Ugh. Did they honestly think that this video was going to help their cause? Sad, very sad. Makes me embarrassed to be female.

  92. OrthodoxChick says:

    Legisperitus,

    The original is a song called “Call Me Maybe” by a young lady named Carly Rae Jepsen. She placed 3rd in the Canadian version of American Idol a few years ago. This song that the wymyn priestesses are using went viral on youtube. I’ll link you to the original, but if you have any tween girls, it’s a catchy tune with a floosie message. And that’s putting it charitably.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWAdb1vgoik

    Stu,
    Ha!!!

  93. I made it to 1:31.
    My take?
    It’s all about ME… If I feel that I am called to the priesthood, if I want to be a priest, then I should be able to do it. Period. Anybody who stands in my way is just a great big meanie and I’m going to ignore him.
    It would appear that in the minds of many, religion is no longer an encounter with Truth beyond our own existence, but rather just another avenue for self-fulfillment like a pottery class, [ROFL!] a backpacking trip in the Pyrenees, or even getting an M.Div. [heh heh]
    I saw this shift very graphically illustrated in my own hometown several years ago when a tiny Protestant chapel on the main drag was sold to a new congregation. The lighted sign over the door that read “Dayspring Chapel: where Jesus Christ is Lifted Up” was replaced with “Ananda Self-Realization Fellowship.” Man has literally knocked God off the altar to clamber up in His place.
    Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genitrix.

    Fr. Z's Gold Star Award

  94. Tradster says:

    OrthodoxChick,

    The solution is to turn the priest towards Christ again. Take away their ability to face and show off to their mostly female audience and women will quickly lose interest in being priests. Or, more accurately, presiders, which is far less effort.

    Thank God women will never be priests. One look at how no two wear the same looking costume and it becomes obvious that no wymynpriest could ever adhere to saying the black and doing the red.

  95. Denise says:

    For all of those asking for a resource to help explain the male only priesthood, I highly recommend the book Women, Sex and the Church: A case for Catholic teaching. This is a book that I would give to every young Catholic woman. Each chapter is written by a highly educated, professional and faithfully Catholic woman who addresses various teachings of the Church. Sr. Sara Butler covers the male only priesthood better than any other explanation I have read. This book should be on the must read list for all parish young adult groups and maybe even the high school religious education programs.

  96. Charles E Flynn says:

    The short answer is that the priesthood is not a job, but a vocation, and that being a priest is not just what an ordained Catholic man does, but what he is. A Catholic priest is a living icon of Jesus Christ. A woman can do many things very well, but she can no more be a living icon of a man than a man can give birth.

    The long answer is a Ph.D. dissertation:

    Women in the Priesthood? A Systematic Analysis in the Light of the Order of Creation and Redemption, by Rev. Manfred Hauke, Ph.D.

  97. RobertK says:

    I would love to see God call these so-called women priestesses to run a parish in a dihard Islamic country. Jesus came from the Middle East. Anyway. Just to see how far they would get, or how soon they would be forced to wear burkas. He He!!

  98. Matthew K says:

    I made it to 1:05, but that is only because I have a bit of a head cold and my hearing is a bit muffled.

    I just can’t get past the question “If you think the Church is so wrong on such a fundamental teaching, why do you want to be a part of it?”

    I do think it really comes down to a sad misunderstanding that puts the priest as a mere “leader.” I honestly believe these women know that women will never be ordained in the Catholic church so they choose the one protest they will always have to prove themselves “progressive” people.

  99. discipulus says:

    I made it 8 seconds in.

  100. Scott W. says:

    Are you forgetting that for decades now

    I’m not forgetting anything and certainly don’t dispute the devastation wrought by feminist twaddle. What I am saying is that the new generation of women desiring priesthood hasn’t materialized in any significant degree and probably won’t. I not sure why that it is. It might be that once you addle girls with PC nonsense, they leave the Church altogether, or at the most become lukewarm, contracepting CINO’s.

  101. frjim4321 says:

    What he means is “the bishops”. And then, for frjim, there is “everyone else”.

    That gives me something to think about. Also you’re right that “institutional” does not complete capture the sentiment since indeed there are aspect of the institution that are at quite an arm’s length.

    Moving on, there is this “third rail” business.

    I don’t know Ray and I don’t know anything about the quantity/quality of his ministry while he was active but I don’t know if “clown” is fair, but at any rate I don’t think he’s the only one who got blown out of the water for suggesting inclusive ordination; in fact wasn’t there a guy recently who suggested some degree of openness regarding the deaconate while boarding a flight and by the time he deplaned he had received his orders to publicly recant? Also, “third rail” vs. being promoted upstairs for enabling … okay, I don’t even want to open that subject.

    When people take out ads, form organizations, march around in churches and disrupt liturgy to protest Catholic teaching, we call that “dissent”. It is the latter who are trying to be popes.

    Agree. I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t do any of that stuff, and that it’s very counterproductive.

  102. AspiringMysticMonk says:

    The first time I saw this I thought it was making fun of people like the WOC…

  103. Trad Catholic Girl says:

    I hate to rain on anyone’s parade but I thought the song was very compelling, and quite catchy too – I almost jumped out of my chair to join them in dancing the wyman priest shuffle (virtually, of course).

  104. Trad Catholic Girl says:

    Oops, I should have ended my prior post with LOL!

  105. Cantor says:

    Fifty years ago, when Tom Lehrer recorded his Vatican Rag, we at least knew at the outset it was parody. [Heresy at the time; prophecy in retrospect!] This one is so much harder to judge.

  106. “give us our church back???” Goes to show how much they really know about their own religion. When, in the history of the church were women ever ordained to the Roman Catholic sacred priesthood? . . . . Like . . . NEVER!

    Check out the sources:
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2ordin.htm
    http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/priesthood_men.htm
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

  107. Thomas S says:

    off2, I am not an advocate of the ordination of women but I can’t say that I have been convinced by any of the arguments that I’ve heard to the contrary. – frjim4321

    Since when is divine revelation subject to the judgment of human reason? There’s no rational process that would ever have resulted in man discovering the content of the Faith; we could never know truths like the Trinity or the Immaculate Conception were they not revealed by God. Certainly the priesthood falls into this category, so who are you to question the revelation? You might as well “argue” that the Trinity should be open to a fourth person.

  108. Supertradmum says:

    There are many rational aruguments, some stemming from the condemnation of modernist heresies which deny that Christ is truly God and truly Man. These heresies stress that Jesus was a prisoner of the Jewish hierarchical religious system.

    Duh, God created the patriarchy, amidst hundreds of matriarchal religious and civil organizations of the day of Abraham. Christ could have chosen women. He is GOD, but He chose men to be in His Own Physical Image and Likeness, the Word Made Flesh….this is a rational argument, and also, what God has ordained, we cannot change. That is also, not merely our Faith, but a simple argument for continuity.

    Perhaps some define rational different than I do, but we are to put on the Mind of Christ, says St. Paul, and that Mind of Christ is the most rational and perfect of all times and cultures. To deny these points is to deny the Incarnation.

  109. Supertradmum says:

    oops invented a new word–aruguments; it is because I am posting in McDonald’s which makes me nervous.

  110. Scott W. says:

    but I can’t say that I have been convinced by any of the arguments that I’ve heard to the contrary

    Then it is a good thing we don’t worship frjim.

  111. The Masked Chicken says:

    “oops invented a new word–aruguments; it is because I am posting in McDonald’s which makes me nervous.”

    Must be the sight of all of those chicken patties. I know the thought of dead chickens cut up and lying on a bun would make me nervous and Ronald McDonald can be kind of scary, too, although he is not really a chicken – he has the colors of a rooster.

    Aruguments is a perfectly lovely world. It is what you get when you chop up arugala.

    The Chicken

  112. frjim4321 says:

    Every day at McDonalds is two days closer to the grave.

  113. The Masked Chicken says:

    Not to go down a rabbit hole, but McDonalds has begun posting calories on its menus. I had a streak, egg, and cheese bagel meal a few weeks ago and was in horror to ind out that breakfast took up half of my daily calorie requirements.

    By the way, according to mouse research, did you know that junk food is addictive?

    The Chicken

  114. Legisperitus says:

    OrthodoxChick: Thanks! Slightly better performed than this one, but nothing I’d listen to on purpose.

  115. Legisperitus says:

    Cantor: At least The Vatican Rag was about things that were recognizably Catholic (kneeling, rosaries, genuflection, confession, transubstantiation)- unlike the actual events that would follow in the Church!

  116. Here’s the thing about the “M. Div.” and women seeking ordination: I’ve seen a lot of videos and articles presenting “women priests” to the world, in which the actions and statements of the so-called priests call into question their level of education and training.

    As someone else already noted, the problem is narcissism, the besetting sin of our time.

  117. Granny says:

    This is our own fault. Lose the altar girls, women lectors, and PLEASE if we cannot lose the over used EMHC ‘ministry’ at least restrict it to men.

  118. Granny says:

    Oh and Fr. Z….shame on you…. that warning was not strong enough… Video should be viewed on an empty stomach. What an embarassment to women everywhere.

  119. Legisperitus says:

    Fr. Martin Fox has hit the nail on the head, I think. We’ve arrived at a full-blown narcissism epidemic.

    In C. S. Lewis’ time, he was already writing about the modern knee-jerk tendency to think “I’m as good as you!” Now it seems to have evolved into “I’m utterly faultless!” But the Imitation of Christ tells us:
    “If you wish to learn and appreciate something worth while, then love to
    be unknown and considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is
    the best and most perfect counsel. To think of oneself as nothing, and
    always to think well and highly of others, is the best and most perfect
    wisdom.”

  120. poorlady says:

    I did not last half way through this one. Repulsive.
    Why do women want to get in on everything? They keep pushing men out, as though they can do any better!
    And why do they tend to add sex to their argument?? Have we ever seen the Pope shake his booty before God and the world like these tramps??

    Tramps.

  121. Long-Skirts says:

    BONELESS
    CHICKENS

    They will not birthe
    But want to bleed

    “Eyes off thighs!”
    Shout mini-skirt breed

    Is this your right
    The question begs

    “Ordain us LADIES -
    Or we’ll break your eggs!”

  122. Supertradmum says:

    Frjim4321, McCafe offers good coffee, and the only free wifi in St. Julians…I shall take my chances….as to women priests, do you not think Blessed John Paul II’s letter is infallible ?

  123. Charliebird says:

    I seriously thought this video was a joke, not a production by “wymyn priests” – i.e. AGAINST the idea of women wanting to be priests. This video seems intentionally silly and naturally disturbing – i.e. not effective. But, that is the way it should be.

  124. The Masked Chicken says:

    Long Skirts,

    Loved the poem, of course :)

    Chickens must have spines! The mask is optional.

    The Chicken

  125. wmeyer says:

    Granny, if we must have EMHCs, I do wish they would at least dress in “Sunday best”… no blue jeans, shorts, etc. Really deplorable, the rag-tag groups I have seen.

  126. onosurf says:

    This video is satire. Their website is parody. Re-connect your funny bone. [Umm... no. Not so much.]

  127. Also, on the MDiv question…

    Being ordained a priest (and deacon before that) isn’t just a matter of earning a degree. That’s obviously important, but only a portion of what it means to be formed as a priest. It’s an arduous process–and as our genial host often mentions, it can be abused. But it needs to be fairly arduous, precisely in order to ensure those who are considered for orders are examined closely in every way–not just academically. What are the motives? Is this candidate for orders well grounded? Mature? Does he have the ability to be chaste and celibate? To persevere in this vocation through thick and thin? And so forth.

    Thus far, I have seen not a scintilla of evidence the “womenpriests” have undergone this formation. Perhaps they have. But I seriously doubt it. If I’m correct (and I’d bet money I am; let me know if you want to bet me), then I’d also like to know why the current crop of “womenpriests” did not, in fact, undergo this process. What could possibly explain the omission? They didn’t know? Too much hurry? Why so much hurry? It was somehow “unjust”?

    Please tell me, advocates of “womenpriests,” why are female candidates for orders not taking part in exactly the formation mandated by church law?

  128. Onosurf:

    The website seems to be genuine; why do you feel sure it’s a parody?

  129. Paul Lemmen says:

    @frjim:

    Are the 95% of Catholic women who either use or have used artificial birth control trying to be popes?
    Essentially, yes. They place themselves above the teaching of the Church and create for themselves a personal “church” in which they dictate the articles of faith and morals. Rathel indicitive of the mindset that they are co-equal to God (the eternal lie fomented by Satan).

  130. In his Apostolic Letter Ordinatio sacerdotalis (1994), the Holy Father Pope John Paul II, declared that “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” This definitive statement leaves no “wiggle room” for those who would like to continue debating the question. As the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith made clear in 1995, the statement that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests, is not merely a matter of Church discipline (which can be changed), but belongs to the deposit of faith (which cannot). “This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Concerning the Teaching Contained in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis).

  131. MichaelJ says:

    Never under estimate the ability of dissidents to wiggle. For this reason, I wish Ordiation Sacerdotals had been written more directly. I saw the “out” as soon as I read this Apostilic Letter, and wonder why the Church did not.
    The phrase “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination…” immediately bring up two implications:
    1. There is some eartly authority (meaning one above the Church!) that does have this authority
    - or –
    2. The Chuch may, at some future time (just not now) be granted or will discover this authority.

    Remember the audience to whom this letter was addressed. Those who already dissent and deny the Church’s authority.

    The CDF clarification was no better. Why they chose to insert the words “in the present circumstances” is quite bewildering, but again, it offers an “out” to dissidents by implying that this teaching may change if circumstances do.

  132. chonak says:

    If they disabled comments at YouTube, it had to be because the majority were congratulating the girlz for their willingness to satirize themselves with such a hilarious video.

  133. CMRose says:

    I managed to watch the entire thing. I even laughed a little bit out loud. In fact, my dad asked me if I was watching the movie with him because I was laughing at a rather inappropriate time.

    As a woman, I think it is perfectly acceptable for me to say that these girls need to give up on their hopes of being priests and go back to Home Economics class. Their husbands are going to need more than just sandwiches to survive. ;-)

  134. JacobWall says:

    To quote Fr. Z: “Anglicans” (and the WOC, who really should be Anglicans) “make parody redundant.”

  135. JacobWall says:

    The question we should all be asking is: Why can groups like this be so hypocritical to complain about discrimination, when they won’t allow men become wymyn priests?
    http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2012/12/17/man-angry-that-only-women-can-become-female-priests/

  136. JacobWall says:

    I also wonder, where did they hire these young girls? Or did they just get them excited to dance in a music video?

    I took a peek at the WOC web gallery; the “young girls” there look like they’re around 60 – maybe 50. OK, OK, I did see 3 or 4 women that appear to be in their 30s (out of about 40 pictures.) http://www.womensordination.org/index.php?option=com_jsmug&Itemid=46&imageoffset=1

    If they would join the Anglicans, it would be win-win; even with their dis-proportionately aged group, I think they might still lower the average age of the Anglicans. And with their new-found ability to cast a younger image, they would just have so much to offer.

    In the end, you do have to give the WOC credit for rejuvenating their image, even if it is just a facade.

  137. mammamia says:

    So much I want to say but only have an iPhone
    -romeontherange, you are almost 100% correct. “me me me, I want it and they won’t let me…” is part of it. But it goes even deeper. See, the 100 grand or so their parents spent on their “education” resulted in these girls getting indoctrinated by bitter spinster progressive academics, that taught them that they won’t feel “validated” unless they have busted up something from the past, because the past must be erased, and 2 high-value targets are Marriage and the Priesthood. I want to expand on my “feeling validated” hypothesis, but can’t at this time, but suffice it to say that this need to feel validated is sadly endemic among young women, and it is being exploited.

    Funny too, how the one religion that has a woman front and center in it’s core, Our Lady, and has multitudes of female saints, is the one that is labeled the most anti-woman. (Fr. Z, there’s the Alinski rules at work again!) My they are sadly very effective.

    Also, most people, especially women (all ages) that I have discussed this subject with over the past 2 years, have said they would not go to a woman for confession. No way I would either. That seal would last about a week and they’d just have to tell someone.

    And sadly, the video is “legit” as in they really mean it, it was not a parody.

  138. Frank Apostolica says:

    Hey, Did the Jesuits sponsor this? Ha ha!

  139. joan ellen says:

    In trying to make sense of it all:
    1. The “womenpriests”video above reminded me of lyrics in Helen Reddy’s song, maybe in the early 70′s, “…I am woman, hear me strong…”.
    2. The video also reminds me of why I cannot in good conscience attend Mass where women Read, Serve, and Administer Holy Communion. Both disturb and upset my faith and well being.
    3. mammamia: “they won’t feel “validated”” and CMRose said “…go back to Home Economics class…” Girls and women used know the importance of doing one’s daily duty…whether wife & mother, single, consecrated…of cooking, cleaning, sewing, knitting, crocheting, etc., etc. This high value is exemplified by St. Therese of Lisieux’s mother, Zellie Martin, who made her lace craft a home business as is outlined in the book “Story of a Family”. Girls and women used to ‘rule’ in those family oriented skills. But sadly…yet…recipe by recipe, scarf by scarf…I see young girls in my acquaintance pick up the scissors or yarn. Not to discount Fr.’s ‘brick by brick’.
    4. When I was young, I’d say to my mother: “But, why not?” She’d answer: “Because I said so that’s why.” Didn’t need any details and knew exactly what it meant. Holy Mother Church is like my mother.

  140. wmeyer says:

    joan_ellen: There is no sense to be made of it. These women have turned away from Holy Mother Church, in favor of their own egos. They put their souls at risk. How can anyone make “sense” of that?

  141. wmeyer says:

    joan_ellen: I understated, badly. These women, in pretending to be ordained, put their own souls at risk, and that is tragic. However, when they pretend to be priests, influencing possibly hundreds of other souls at risk, and that is scandalous. Criminal.

  142. joan ellen says:

    wmeyer: I agree. Thanks for your well stated responses which point exactly to the dilemma. It does not make ‘sense’ to me. Yet, I keep trying to make ‘sense’ of it all. As you say “There is no ‘sense’ to be made of it.” Isn’t who ever allowed/promoted/ok’d women to be in the Sanctuary the real criminal(s)?

  143. fvhale says:

    @Joan Ellen: I am curious if your concerns about “Mass where women Read” and “women…in the Sanctuary ” extend to religious women in habit?

  144. joan ellen says:

    wmeyer: OrthodoxChick says: 3 January 2013 at 6:25 pm
    “Don’t let girls serve Mass as an altar boy and they won’t grow up expecting to go on to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

    Solution to problem.”

    Orthodox Chick stated the solution. That solution has to come from the Bishops. Not too likely at this point in time.
    In my earlier post I was intending that the solution could come via diversion. The diversion being for women to pride themselves on what women in the past did. IOW, what will change the minds of the girls I saw in the video? The word no doesn’t seem to cut it. Finding a replacement for their heart’s desire may.
    Or maybe, it is a matter of better Catechesis…from all of us.

  145. joan ellen says:

    fvhale says:
    “@Joan Ellen: I am curious if your concerns about “Mass where women Read” and “women…in the Sanctuary ” extend to religious women in habit?”
    My understanding, from SSPX friends, if there are no Altar Servers, then religious women in habit respond at Mass, no religious women in habit, then laity respond. The same for Sacristan…if no men are available…religious in habit do the Altar ‘work’, lastly, women laity. The same for readings, if the Priest or Deacon does not do it in the OF, then lay men should, if men cannot do it…then a women religious…or if necessary, women laity. The readings in the EF are always done by the priest.

    The whole women priest issue really has to do with upsetting the hierarchy established by Our Blessed Lord. The upsetting of the hierarchy also would to apply to any and all considerations in the Sanctuary. The importance for maintaining the Church hierarchy is Sciripturally and Traditionally sound.

  146. fvhale says:

    @Joan_ellen: Good general principles. Thanks.

    However, there are always situations where practice can be different, for good reasons.
    For example: “The readings in the EF are always done by the priest.” Actually, there are times when a mere layman can read or chant the epistle while the priest listens.
    Another example: “…readings, if the Priest or Deacon does not do it in the OF, then lay men should, if men cannot do it…then a women religious.” Well, when I visit a Dominican convent where a Dominican father comes just to say the OF Mass, and I, a layman who read at my home parish, am a guest, I am not going to object to the Dominican sister serving as reader in her community chapel!

  147. CMRose says:

    Joan_ellen writes:
    “2. The video also reminds me of why I cannot in good conscience attend Mass where women Read, Serve, and Administer Holy Communion. Both disturb and upset my faith and well being.”

    I have a similar problem. I find women “ministers” to be very upsetting to me. We have our roles. Speaking of:

    “3. mammamia: “they won’t feel “validated”” and CMRose said “…go back to Home Economics class…” Girls and women used know the importance of doing one’s daily duty…whether wife & mother, single, consecrated…of cooking, cleaning, sewing, knitting, crocheting, etc., etc. This high value is exemplified by St. Therese of Lisieux’s mother, Zellie Martin, who made her lace craft a home business as is outlined in the book “Story of a Family”. Girls and women used to ‘rule’ in those family oriented skills. But sadly…yet…recipe by recipe, scarf by scarf…I see young girls in my acquaintance pick up the scissors or yarn. Not to discount Fr.’s ‘brick by brick’.”

    Exactly! For all of the negative things I could say about my mother, this is one the points I have to admit she was absolutely right about. As a child she was never taught to fulfill any role associated with women. She suffered greatly when she became a wife and then a mother because she couldn’t successfully cook a decent meal. As a result, she made sure that she found teachers for my siblings and I in the womanly arts of cooking, cleaning, sewing, knitting, canning, gardening, etc. We even know how to dye clothes!

  148. joan ellen says:

    fvhale says: You are welcome. And thank you as well. You and wmeyer, both of you, were able to offer responses to my posts that were cause for this lady to consider, as you both offered words that made sense. Thank you both very much.
    Exceptions are not bad in some instances. Where are the lines drawn?
    If exceptions were allowed in the case of women priests, I for one would consider praying my Rosary and reading the Sinner’s Guide only…as a way to keep my faith, (what the Japanese did for 200 years) for surely God does not want women priests, and He would not want me to support that contrivance.
    In the meantime, by God’s grace I am able to go to an EF. If I was not able to, I’d remember how my heart soars at each EF Mass, and I’d thank God for allowing me to have had that experience here on earth. That would be my plan of action in order to save my soul.

  149. Pingback: Prästämbete och äktenskap, sexuell symbolism i skapelsen | Bengts Blogg

  150. joan ellen says:

    CMRose says: (writes is more accurate…thanks): What a good mother you had, to know her weaknesses and then find others to teach the skills she was not able to. And, now as a result, you are able to pass those skills to other young women, and maybe not so young.

    If enough of us…sorry to be a broken record about the critical mass idea…can promote those skills before we know it, girls and women will remain in the pews because of their new found proper dignity and freedom as a result of that dignity. The dignity/freedom idea is not original from me, but from a young dad after Mass yesterday as some of us were speaking of this very topic.