EWTN (Fr. Murray) analysis of Synod from a couple days ago.

It is interesting, today, to watch the World Over analysis of the Synod from a couple days ago.  Special attention, please, to Fr. Murray’s comments.

About Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Fr. Z is the guy who runs this blog. o{]:¬)
This entry was posted in Synod, The Drill and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

30 Responses to EWTN (Fr. Murray) analysis of Synod from a couple days ago.

  1. Charlie says:

    Ah, the synod is making me sick – and no, I don’t believe it’s the Holy Spirit at work. I’m not sure about the efficacy of doing away with the notion (in reality, fact) of sin as strategy for evangelizing on behalf of a faith whose relevance is proclaimed as salvation from sin… whose central figure, Christ, defeated sin in a bloody, horrible, and self-sacrificial manner.

  2. Robert of Rome says:

    Thanks for posting this, Father. The “Papal Posse” along with Raymond Arroyo represent some of the best commentary on this Synod that I have seen (and there is a lot of good commentary around: journalist Edward Pentin over at National Catholic REGISTER being among the best, but also Andrea Gagliarducci at Catholic News AGENCY, and don’t forget his blog, MondayVatican). The furrowed brow in this video of Father Gerarld Murray says it all. There is extreme confusion around Rome as to what exactly is going on, and the tension will increase in this upcoming third and last week. Certainly the Holy Father’s speech to the Synod Fathers yesterday, October 17, increased the anxieties of many of us that the Pope is leaning toward devolution (“decentralization”) of the key disciplinary (read doctrinal) questions to the national episcopal conferences. I think this is the most important anxiety currently gripping those who would defend Catholic Truth.

  3. Cantor says:

    How interesting it is that there is concern that the Vatican might want to devolve decision-making processes to the various regional bishops’ conferences, but won’t even devolve the power of making statements to the 13 language groups that are part of the Synod!

    (And is that really a coven of language groups?)

  4. anilwang says:

    I’m beginning to suspect that the Pope has arranged the synod to be a “Heads I win”/”Tails you lose” deal. Namely, if the synod arrived at the solution the Pope wanted or didn’t rebel, then the Pope would declare that the synod process worked and he would abide by that decision. If the more likely result (since the Pope placed dissenters at the same level as the faith) was that the synod is deadlocked, then the Pope can use that deadlock to prove that a global pastoral approach is impossible and that he has “no choice but to devolve doctrinal decisions to the bishops or national conferences”.

    BTW, the comment “Love the sinner hate the sin approach doesn’t work” actually does make sense if you use the “Hermeneutic of Germany”, namely we need to move “Beyond Good and Evil”. If you can stomach Friedrich Nietzsche, you’ll see a lot of the themes expressed by the Vatican Spokesman and the dissenters come straight out of this dark prince’s works.

  5. frjim4321 says:

    As we’ve seen in the past the pope can ignore all the interventions and issue whatever he wants (e.g. B16). So, frankly, I don’t understand all the bellyaching from the fundamentalist far right on this. Synod fathers in the past strongly recommended extending the role of instituted lector to the pope and he ignored the recommendation. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The sky is not falling down, people!

  6. JamesM says:

    Fr Jim

    Do you really think using language like “fundamentalist far right” is charitable? Especially from someone who describes themselves as a “moderate”?

  7. Sacred1 says:

    “Ah, the synod is making me sick – and no, I don’t believe it’s the Holy Spirit at work.”

    I share your belief that the Holy Spirit is not at work during the Synod. My belief was further strengthened when I read at Edward Pentin’s blog “Cardinal Marx Hosting Extravagant Dinners for Synod Fathers?”. I thought, how can anyone discern the will of the Holy Spirit when stuffing their worldly appetites? How can anyone approach God with humility when over-indulging in sensual pleasure and material extravegance? As my Ignatius study bible teaches: “Christians are called to renounce the world, not as something evil or detestable, but as something that threatens to consume our attention and turn our affections away from God. … [F]asting, and almsgiving are venerated in Jewish and Christian traditions as practical ways to express our love for God and lesson our love of the world (page 470).”

    These Synods would have more spiritual credibility, in my opinion, if the participants were required to fast, pray, confess, give alms, and live in solitude for the entire month.

  8. wised says:

    I guess that I am one of the “fundamentalist far right” in my Catholic upbringing and development of a well formed conscience as opposed to some who would prefer ambiguity in doctrine. Would it be better that conscience rule our Catholic sensibilty? If conscience is sacred, then everything and nothing is sacred.

    There are 40,000 christian denominations whose doctrine is determined by their “conscience of the moment”. It is difficult for me to reconcile sowing ambiguity as a means to justify faith. Sowing confusion as a tactic leads to polarization. Isn’t that what has lead to the wide range of options available in the cafeteria? Throwing up straw men is a weak defense. But again, confusion seems to be in vogue.

  9. Ferde Rombola says:

    My fundamentalist far right faith tells me the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be the governing factor in these deliberation, which is axiomatic, but there seem to be too many participants who are much too sophisticated actually to believe in ‘fairy tales,’ the Pope being one of them. He thinks the story of the loaves and fishes is one of the people sharing their food with those who have none. The whole premise of the story is that no one had any food, but what’s a little revision when you’re the self appointed King of the Catholic Church. And very humble besides.

  10. SanSan says:

    Everything has been “pre ordained” by Pope Francis……just wait and watch. Trust in God that what comes, needs to come.

  11. Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    Two thoughts.

    The same pope who seems bent on letting Kasper et al have all the time they want is also the pope who, this morning, canonizes Louis and Zelie Martin.

    Next Sunday, at the close of the Synod, His Holiness could, if he chooses, celebrate the Mass of Christ the King, which was promulgated 80 years ago.

  12. Midwest St. Michael says:

    “I don’t understand all the bellyaching from the fundamentalist far right on this.” frjim4321

    [sigh]

    Dear orthodox Catholics, here is an essay by Catholic author and evangelist Jim Seghers who gives an excellent explanation on what certain folks mean when they use the derogatory term “fundamentalist” (in Catholic circles, that is):

    http://www.totustuus.com/Catholic%20Fundamentalism%20-%20What's%20that.pdf

    MSM

  13. jlong says:

    The future will be as Cardinal Ratzinger once said, a small but faithful Church who will bring the light of Christ to a world in darkness. Now we can see how this will come about over the next 200 or so years. Also, it is evident that the visions of Our Lady of Akita are becoming realized.

    1. Pope Francis will devolve discipline authority to dioceses. Eventually the CDF and CDW will be closed and Rome will only address those areas where their is some dispute (although in reality, Rome may say nothing).
    2. The power of the Papacy will be diminished, and will be seen overtime as a figurehead, like the Archbishop of Canterbury, unless the next conclave votes for a Cardinal Sarah or someone of that caliber (although I wonder if the Pope may stack the Cardinals or even move away from that altogether). One day a stronger Pope will emerge.
    3. Numerous dioceses will comply with the times, with what the world desires, and they will use conscience as their excuse. We will see blessings of gay couples (although maybe not marriage), communion for anyone, including non Catholics or those in a state of objective mortal sin.
    4. Some dioceses will even falsely ordain women to the Priesthood as an issue of conscience but only after they cave on the diaconate. Rome will say nothing or very little because, as I stated earlier, that authority will be diminished.
    5. Like the Anglicans, Catholics will on a greater scale stop attending Church, especially in liberal dioceses who wedded the world. Seminarians will leave on mass, the true Priests will either stay in their respective dioceses and undergo hardship or try and transfer to a more conservative area. People will stop giving money to parishes (which is something I would do if my local Diocese embraced the heresies of modernity). People will be still attracted to those areas and Parishes that preach the authentic Gospel, which includes mercy and justice.
    6. Churches will close and dioceses will enter bankruptcy. Liberals will cry we need more liberalism, cant you see that’s why the Churches are closing. So the Churches in those areas will further embrace liberalism, but the decline will increase.
    7. The Church will have no authority or voice in the public arena. There will be very few espousing the truths of the faith.
    8. The Catholic faithful must always stand with Apostolic Tradition and with Peter but will not contribute or participate in Church life to the degree they have. Many will feel lost and leave the bark of Peter. Those that remain will teach their children and grandchildren the truth of the faith against a world of secularism and a Church that has leaders who preach heresy. These people will be the ones who become that beacon that Cardinal Ratzinger once spoke off.
    9. Eventually, a new Pope will emerge who stands in full unity with Tradition, and from the bottom up, the heresies will be defeated, and a new Council will address the heresies rampant within the Church or Christ will come again in glory.

  14. mlmc says:

    “truth in public, mercy in private” sounds like a great bumper sticker

  15. Tricia says:

    If “fundamentalist” means believing the full truth of the Faith as taught by Christ and His Church, then I guess I am a fundamentalist.

  16. frjim4321 says:

    “Do you really think using language like “fundamentalist far right” is charitable? Especially from someone who describes themselves as a “moderate”?”

    Is social commentary that we find disagreeable necessarily uncharitable?

  17. Mike says:

    frjim4321 rejoins: Is social commentary that we find disagreeable necessarily uncharitable?

    The question was not asked with reference to commentary in general. It was asked with reference to yours, which is chronically pejorative toward followers of the Church’s tradition who are upset about how its teaching and practice have been upended over the past two generations.

    To reflect and reframe your question, and your comments, would be charity toward all who read and hear what you say.

  18. oldcanon2257 says:

    frjim4321 says:

    As we’ve seen in the past the pope can ignore all the interventions and issue whatever he wants (e.g. B16). So, frankly, I don’t understand all the bellyaching from the fundamentalist far right on this. Synod fathers in the past strongly recommended extending the role of instituted lector to the pope and he ignored the recommendation. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The sky is not falling down, people!

    The sky might not be falling down, but God might send fire and brimstone raining from the sky soon if we do not repent, so heed Father Z’s warning and go to confession early and often.

    As Father Z mentioned in a post here a couple days back, Cardinal Burke said:

    Card. Burke: “Yes, I’m a fundamentalist”

    “I’m open to the world, but I insist on the fundamental things. Like the Eucharist.” Thus says Raymond Card. Burke.

    “The Church must be clear on her identity. If, for ‘fundamentalist’ one means someone who insists on the fundamentals, I’m a fundamentalist. As a priest, I don’t teach for myself and I don’t act for myself. I belong to Christ. I act in his person. I teach only what He teaches in His Church, because this teaching will save souls.”

    Just like Cardinal Burke, if that is what a fundamentalist is, even though I am not a priest, I am happy to be a “fundamentalist Catholic” (I belong to Christ, I insist on the fundamental things like the Eucharist, etc.)

    Also, I am sick and tired of this sham of a synod, though I am glad that thanks to this synod I did have a chance to read some great interventions by faithful prelates (faithful to Christ, that is) like those of the episcopate of Poland and many more.

    The intervention of Cardinal “not a subsidiary of Rome” Marx did not surprise me one bit, as I remember what Archbishop Jan Pawel Lenga said, “There was Marx, Karl Marx. And if present Marx says similar things, then there is no real difference.” That was to be expected.

    What really worries me a great deal is the intervention of and subsequent media interview by Archbishop Cupich of Chicago, USA. Many have predicted Cupich will probably be made cardinal soon after this display of personal loyalty and sycophancy to the (false) “merciful and pastoral” crowd. Anybody want to bet how long? I wouldn’t be surprised if the American equivalent of or remnant of the Saint Gallen “mafia” group lobbied for Cupich to be moved from tiny Spokane to be planted in the influential see of Chicago.

    Father John Hunwicke has a very sarcastic (yet true, how sad) article called “The Last Periphery” here about Archbishop Cupich being “pastoral”:

    http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/the-last-periphery.html

    Now that the orthodox Cardinal George is no longer there and Archbishop Cupich is running the show, perhaps frjim4321 might want to consider requesting to be excardinated from the diocese he is in (not far from Chicago) and incardinated in the Archdiocese of Chicago.

    To borrow and paraphrase a description from Saint Jerome about a council where orthodoxy was defeated, to describe this sham synod, we could say, “The whole world groaned in astonishment to find itself… abandoning the fundamental truth/words of Christ.”

  19. gsk says:

    @jlong: whether it is theologically plausible for a pope to err that grievously, I don’t know, but you offer an interesting thought experiment nonetheless. Am I prepared to persevere under such circumstances? I think so, but the proof is in the pudding. With the internet prime for government oversight, this would be a good time to check our written materials–do we have in our possession that which can nourish and instruct during such a time? A good library is essential (dead tree variety).

  20. jlong says:

    Popes have erred in the past, but my point is we will find silence where there should be teaching. This is the Popes synod and it does not look good. Most statements made by popes do not carry the full weight of the extraordinary magisterium, they are not de fide.

  21. robtbrown says:

    Chris Garton-Zavesky says:

    The same pope who seems bent on letting Kasper et al have all the time they want is also the pope who, this morning, canonizes Louis and Zelie Martin.

    This pope is a Jesuit, and synthesis has never been a Jesuit strong point.

  22. Papabile says:

    Frjim4321

    I Wil gladly accept being described as a fundamentalist if you wills accept being described as a pro-sodomite Febronian heretic.

  23. Papabile says:

    Regardless of what I’m missing, I last comment was way out of line. I ask Father for his forgiveness. I wrote it in anger because I was offended by his statement.

  24. frjim4321 says:

    “Regardless of what I’m missing, I last comment was way out of line. I ask Father for his forgiveness. I wrote it in anger because I was offended by his statement.”

    No offense taken. I survived 12 years in the seminary so I have a pretty thick skin.

  25. Papabile says:

    Well, I was way out of line. Excuse the misspellings, etc. The autocorrect on my phone is a horror.

  26. Papabile says:

    Btw, Father Jim…. How’s Norman? I am there once a month. I’ll buy you a beer next time if you are around the first week of November.

  27. Subdeacon Joseph says:

    As a Byzantine Rite priest I was curious when the Holy Father called for more collegiality among the bishops as how it would look. Well, now we know.

  28. frjim4321 says:

    “Btw, Father Jim…. How’s Norman? I am there once a month. I’ll buy you a beer next time if you are around the first week of November.” Papabile

    Not really a beer drinker.

    Sort of on the wagon these days.

  29. frjim4321 says:

    Papibile, I don’t know any Father Norman.